High Sensitivity Speakers

[Rob1969]

Anyone have any recommendations?

The Unison Research Simply Italy I have is remarkable with the SM100’s but wondered if I could squeeze a little more performance with a more sensitive, valve friendly speaker?

Not looking for vintage - new or mint ex dem/secondhand okay.

Budget around £1,500......

[Sherwood]

I have another model in this range using the Alnico full range driver, but his looks to meet your requirements.

https://www.divineaudio.co.uk/omega-compact-alnico-monitor-cam-speakers-pair

95 db rating and easy to drive even with SETs.

Geoff

[Rob1969]

I have another model in this range using the Alnico full range driver, but his looks to meet your requirements.

https://www.divineaudio.co.uk/omega-compact-alnico-monitor-cam-speakers-pair

95 db rating and easy to drive even with SETs.

Geoff

Geoff,

Thanks for the message. I have seen these on Devine Audio's website and they do look intriguing. I have never owned a pair of speakers with an Alnico Driver.

Can I ask which you own and how would you describe the sound please?

Thanks,

Rob

[RothwellAudio]

I have never owned a pair of speakers with an Alnico Driver.
Alnico is just the material that the magnet is made from. I'm not sure it's different enough from ceramic or any other magnetic material to be significant when there are so many other variables in the mix, eg. cone material, cone mass, suspension material, suspension mass, compliance, coil inductance, etc. etc. etc. I think in this instance the word alnico is just being used as marketing tool.

[Sherwood]

Geoff,

Thanks for the message. I have seen these on Devine Audio's website and they do look intriguing. I have never owned a pair of speakers with an Alnico Driver.

Can I ask which you own and how would you describe the sound please?

Thanks,

Rob

I bought mine direct from the Louis (Mr Omega) on a visit to the US. Mine are a custom design (effectively, the Super7 monitor with the Alnico driver upgrade).

Sound: fast, detailed, dynamic, weighty. In some respects, similar to my Maggies, but much, much, much easier to drive. The Alnico driver adds a visceral presence to the midrange which really works well and a surprising slam to bass. Imaging is top notch, with a very wide hotspot due to the cabinet design and the point source driver.

Oh, and they beautifully finished with a 10 year guarantee.

Geoff

[Rob1969]

I bought mine direct from the Louis (Mr Omega) on a visit to the US. Mine are a custom design (effectively, the Super7 monitor with the Alnico driver upgrade).

Sound: fast, detailed, dynamic, weighty. In some respects, similar to my Maggies, but much, much, much easier to drive. The Alnico driver adds a visceral presence to the midrange which really works well and a surprising slam to bass. Imaging is top notch, with a very wide hotspot due to the cabinet design and the point source driver.

Oh, and they beautifully finished with a 10 year guarantee.

Geoff

Definitely worth looking at then. Someone on ebay is selling a pair of the floorstanding version for £1,300: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Omega-Junior-8XRS-Floorstanding-Loudspeakers-Macassar-Ebony-retail-price-2195/152895431447?hash=item2399472317:g:-qIAAOSw401aPOGa

[Sherwood]

Definitely worth looking at then. Someone on ebay is selling a pair of the floorstanding version for £1,300: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Omega-Junior-8XRS-Floorstanding-Loudspeakers-Macassar-Ebony-retail-price-2195/152895431447?hash=item2399472317:g:-qIAAOSw401aPOGa

A good price, but with the standard drivers no the Alnico types. I heard both drivers in identical cabinets at the Omega factory and all I can say is that I stumped up for the Alnico drivers.

Geoff

[struth]

my full ranges are alnico and still sound great to this day, and are about as old as me

[Rob1969]

A good price, but with the standard drivers no the Alnico types. I heard both drivers in identical cabinets at the Omega factory and all I can say is that I stumped up for the Alnico drivers.

Geoff

Didn't spot that. Will look at the others. Thank you.

[hifinutt]

how about these

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/devore-fidelity-88-loudspeakers.211854/

or these

http://www.analogueseduction.net/category-713/icon-audio-frm1-standmount-monitor-loudspeakers.html

[Rob1969]

how about these

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/devore-fidelity-88-loudspeakers.211854/

or these

http://www.analogueseduction.net/category-713/icon-audio-frm1-standmount-monitor-loudspeakers.html

The Devore's look superb but a bit too far from where I live as I would want to check them over.

The Icon Audio speakers solicited a little chuckle from the wife when I showed her. Not a good sign!

[normmc]

Hi Rob. Try to hear speakers in the Triangle (French made) range. Great with valves.

[paulf-2007]

Zu from 2w up, ran mine with PX25 4w, now running solid state. Something special about triode valves but can't remember now so ss is doing it for peanuts.

[walpurgis]

Hi Rob. Try to hear speakers in the Triangle (French made) range. Great with valves.

Good suggestion. Triangle know their stuff.

[hornucopia]

Even older than Struth (!!) and my Leak 3090s (I think) have alnico -from 70s.
Not sure history agrees with you, Mr Rothwell. The use of alnico goes back a long way and many folk rate it-plus many top makers use it.
Sure, the use of paper/plastic/carbon etc is important.
My PHY units, made by Bernard Salabert, were made 'the old way'. He said he hadn't invented anything new, just hadn't forgotten the old methods-which included careful use of paper, magnets etc. Often tuned by ear! The results are divine!

[walpurgis]

my Leak 3090s (I think) have alnico

I doubt it. The drive units were made by Wharfedale who as far as I'm aware had been manufacturing only ceramic magnet speakers since the late sixties. Not that there's anything wrong with ceramic items, they have some advantages in fact.

[RothwellAudio]

Even older than Struth (!!) and my Leak 3090s (I think) have alnico -from 70s.
Not sure history agrees with you, Mr Rothwell.
Not sure history agrees with me? I don't really understand that. I only expressed an opinion that the magnetic material was of minor concern in the overall design of a drive unit. Yes, alnico has been around a long time. I think ceramic was a later invention. Much more recently we have the rare earth magnets such as neodymium. The magnetic field is obviously important - or else the speaker wouldn't work! - but what produces the magnetic field is a concern for weight/size/cost etc. rather than sound quality (in my opinion).

[struth]

some say its better(alnico) and some dont. I'm in first camp overall but there is much more to it as Rothwell suggests so just being Alnico wont make em deffo better. The Material is fairly rare these days so not used much

[struth]

one of the criticisms of them was that if you over ran them they just packed up, but so will most tbh. mine are hi sensitivity low power but are connected to big amps. its never caused a problem and no power has been lost from them. they only need a few watts i guess anyway. monoblocks are at 9 from a start of 7. its loud enough for me but can go a lot louder without issue.i like paper drivers

[RothwellAudio]

one of the criticisms of them was that if you over ran them they just packed up...
Do you mean the magnets would lose their magnetism? Yes, I hadn't considered that.
Of course, if "packing up" means the voice coil melting or going open circuit, that's not really related to the magnet material as far as I know.

[struth]

Do you mean the magnets would lose their magnetism? Yes, I hadn't considered that.
Of course, if "packing up" means the voice coil melting or going open circuit, that's not really related to the magnet material as far as I know.

yup, losing their magnetism, although the voice coils may go to if over driven. they used to be able to re magnetise them, but dunno if thats still the case.

[Macca]

yup, losing their magnetism, although the voice coils may go to if over driven. they used to be able to re magnetise them, but dunno if thats still the case.

Yes they can still be re-magnetised. At one time all drivers used Alnico, even cheap crappy ones that came with Fergusson music centres. Then there was a civil war in Botswana (or somewhere similar) and Alnico became hard to get so most switched to ferrite and stayed with it, since it made not a jot of difference to anything. Because some older speakers widely regarded as classic use Alnico this has become something of a 'thing' with audiophiles, but there is no foundation to it.

I agree with Andrew that the idea that Alnico imparts some special sonic effect is highly unlikely. However given the myth that is slowly building up around it the manufacturers do now tend to mention it in their marketing blurb.

[walpurgis]

Do they do alnico mains cables? :)

[Macca]

Do they do alnico mains cables? :)

Don't give them ideas...

[struth]

Yes they can still be re-magnetised. At one time all drivers used Alnico, even cheap crappy ones that came with Fergusson music centres. Then there was a civil war in Botswana (or somewhere similar) and Alnico became hard to get so most switched to ferrite and stayed with it, since it made not a jot of difference to anything. Because some older speakers widely regarded as classic use Alnico this has become something of a 'thing' with audiophiles, but there is no foundation to it.

I agree with Andrew that the idea that Alnico imparts some special sonic effect is highly unlikely. However given the myth that is slowly building up around it the manufacturers do now tend to mention it in their marketing blurb.

i see, so nothing makes a jot then... no point in making different cables either :eyebrows:

[RothwellAudio]

I agree with Andrew that the idea that Alnico imparts some special sonic effect is highly unlikely. However given the myth that is slowly building up around it the manufacturers do now tend to mention it in their marketing blurb.
There may be some cross pollination here between the hi-fi industry and the electric guitar world. Guitar pickups with alnico magnets are usually considered superior to guitar pickups with ceramic magnets. Actually, there is some truth to the two being different because the magnet material has some effect on the inductance of the pickup. Anyway, "alnico" has become synonymous with "good" in the guitar world and it appears the same thing is happening in hi-fi.
Sounds like marketing nonsense to me though.

[Sherwood]

Yes they can still be re-magnetised. At one time all drivers used Alnico, even cheap crappy ones that came with Fergusson music centres. Then there was a civil war in Botswana (or somewhere similar) and Alnico became hard to get so most switched to ferrite and stayed with it, since it made not a jot of difference to anything. Because some older speakers widely regarded as classic use Alnico this has become something of a 'thing' with audiophiles, but there is no foundation to it.

I agree with Andrew that the idea that Alnico imparts some special sonic effect is highly unlikely. However given the myth that is slowly building up around it the manufacturers do now tend to mention it in their marketing blurb.

Alnico is an alloy of aluminium, nickel and cobalt (hence the acronym Al-ni-co). If there was a supply problem it would be down to a shortage of one of the constituents, probably cobalt. Botswana is not a major supplier of cobalt though neighbouring Zambia is (as is the DRC).

Botswana is one of the most stable, democratic and well run countries in Africa and has not had a civil war. It did suffer from de-stabilisation efforts from apartheid era South Africa, including a helicopter gunship attack on the capital in the mid 1980's on the pretext of combating terrorism (i.e. anti apartheid activists).

Geoff

[RothwellAudio]

...so nothing makes a jot then...
I think the point that me and Macca are making is that everything matters, but where speakers are concerned the magnet material is way down the list after dozens of other parameters.

[Macca]

Alnico is an alloy of aluminium, nickel and cobalt (hence the acronym Al-ni-co). If there was a supply problem it would be down to a shortage of one of the constituents, probably cobalt. Botswana is not a major supplier of cobalt though neighbouring Zambia is (as is the DRC).

Botswana is one of the most stable, democratic and well run countries in Africa and has not had a civil war. It did suffer from de-stabilisation efforts from apartheid era South Africa, including a helicopter gunship attack on the capital in the mid 1980's on the pretext of combating terrorism (i.e. anti apartheid activists).

Geoff

Yes I didn't think it was Botswana, but couldn't recall the right country off the top of my head. Anyway it doesn't really matter.

[Sherwood]

I think the point that me and Macca are making is that everything matters, but where speakers are concerned the magnet material is way down the list after dozens of other parameters.

I agree that speaker performance is down to a myriad of design and construction choices. However, my experience of Alnico drivers has been consistently positive. At the risk of generalisation I have found that Alnico drivers have excellent dynamics and a "weight" and immediacy not found in most other driver types.

I suspect that the move to other materials was due primarily to costs and profit margins than it was to performance.

Geoff

[Macca]

There may be some cross pollination here between the hi-fi industry and the electric guitar world. Guitar pickups with alnico magnets are usually considered superior to guitar pickups with ceramic magnets. Actually, there is some truth to the two being different because the magnet material has some effect on the inductance of the pickup. Anyway, "alnico" has become synonymous with "good" in the guitar world and it appears the same thing is happening in hi-fi.
Sounds like marketing nonsense to me though.

Musicians are worse than audiophiles. All this you read about 'there's no audiophile nonsense in the pro sector' - well maybe not with the studio staff but talk to the guitar player and it's crazy time.

[RothwellAudio]

...talk to the guitar player and it's crazy time.

absolutely :lol:

[walpurgis]

And I've found the opposite. I generally use Tannoy dual concentrics and having run various Alnico examples and the ferrite magnet models that superseded, I found the ferrite versions, to me at least, seem tighter and better focused.

[hornucopia]

My Dad was Bishop of Bechuanaland, as Botswana was called then (62-70)!! One of the (only?) well run countries in Africa, now using mineral wealth to improve hospitals, roads etc.. rather than being stolen by Mugabe-types.
He-my Dad, not Mugabe! - used self made Heathkit hi-fi there. Moved on to Leak sandwiches and thorens 160 + armstrong amps, later.

[Sherwood]

My Dad was Bishop of Bechuanaland, as Botswana was called then (62-70)!! One of the (only?) well run countries in Africa, now using mineral wealth to improve hospitals, roads etc.. rather than being stolen by Mugabe-types.
He-my Dad, not Mugabe! - used self made Heathkit hi-fi there. Moved on to Leak sandwiches and thorens 160 + armstrong amps, later.

Much of Botswana's success is down to President Sir Seretse Kharma, who ensured that it had solid democratic foundations as it transitioned from a British Protectorate to an Independent nation. I met his wife when I worked there in the late 80's. She was a formidable women working then with the Red Cross.

Geoff

[Macca]

And I've found the opposite. I generally use Tannoy dual concentrics and having run various Alnico examples and the ferrite magnet models that superseded, I found the ferrite versions, to me at least, seem tighter and better focused.

How can you narrow that difference down to the metal in the magnets though?

[walpurgis]

How can you narrow that difference down to the metal in the magnets though?

I can't, but the difference is there.

[hifinutt]

My Dad was Bishop of Bechuanaland, as Botswana was called then (62-70)!! One of the (only?) well run countries in Africa, now using mineral wealth to improve hospitals, roads etc.. rather than being stolen by Mugabe-types.
He-my Dad, not Mugabe! - used self made Heathkit hi-fi there. Moved on to Leak sandwiches and thorens 160 + armstrong amps, later.

wow chris , thats amazing , what an amazing guy he sounds

[cooky]

Alnico magnets are less susceptible to flux modulation, ergo have lower midband distortion..... except it's been known about and fixed in many top end ceramic motors for over 30 years;

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4664/39231956925_76de61441f_c.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4670/25259178467_7da429bc2d_c.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4711/40100066742_d9cbf92c80_c.jpg

Frank

[RothwellAudio]

^ Very impressive - I like a bit of scientific rigour :)
Shame that fig.3 is missing.

[cooky]

^ Very impressive - I like a bit of scientific rigour :)
Shame that fig.3 is missing.

Now fixed.
F

[Stratmangler]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Edingdales .......
Colin isn't a million miles away from Coppull, and I'm sure he'd be happy for you to pop round for a demo.

[Pigmy Pony]

Hi Robert,

Another option to consider are Zu speakers. Not everyone's cup of tea, but my Omen Defs, as long as I don't play them too loud, I find to be very detailed and dynamic.

I live in Chorley, so you're welcome to try your amp with them.

Having said that, if I had a second chance to pick some speakers, the Edingdales would top of my list of ones to try.

[paulf-2007]

Hi Robert,

Another option to consider are Zu speakers. Not everyone's cup of tea, but my Omen Defs, as long as I don't play them too loud, I find to be very detailed and dynamic.

I live in Chorley, so you're welcome to try your amp with them.

Having said that, if I had a second chance to pick some speakers, the Edingdales would top of my list of ones to try.
I posted on page 2 r.e. Zu, I have omen's in a small room, so no problem with having to wring their necks.
Still find the bass control is better with more power on tap. Like single driver with tight controlled bass.

[Pigmy Pony]

Sorry Paul, I somehow missed your post.

I believe Zu's do quite well in small rooms, mine are quite happy with my diddy-lounge. I think Paul's right about liking a bit of power-it has been suggested on here before that my Audion Silver Night may not have enough welly for my requirements. Still love the sound though, as long as I keep it in its comfort zone, ie. not too loud.

I think Zu's would be an excellent choice s/hand, but horrendously expensive new-mine were £4200, plus an extra £1800 for piano gloss black option :eek: I think I saw some Druids recently in a special finish for not much money.

[paulf-2007]

Sorry Paul, I somehow missed your post.

I believe Zu's do quite well in small rooms, mine are quite happy with my diddy-lounge. I think Paul's right about liking a bit of power-it has been suggested on here before that my Audion Silver Night may not have enough welly for my requirements. Still love the sound though, as long as I keep it in its comfort zone, ie. not too loud.

I think Zu's would be an excellent choice s/hand, but horrendously expensive new-mine were £4200, plus an extra £1800 for piano gloss black option :eek: I think I saw some Druids recently in a special finish for not much money.

Ouch my mk1 were £700 used. They sound so good I've never been tempted to upgrade the drivers. I sold PX25 monoblocks built by Jim turner for Jim carfrae's horns for demo's at shows, cost me £1000 and bought a Sony receiver for £69 and it's fantastic and has better bass control.

[Stratmangler]

if I had a second chance to pick some speakers, the Edingdales would top of my list of ones to try.

They were always intended to be used with low output SET amplifiers, so they're high sensitivity, and a benign load with it.

[RothwellAudio]

Still find the bass control is better with more power on tap.
The extra power might be a red herring and it may be the amplifier's lower output impedance which makes the difference. High power SS amps tend to have a much lower output impedance than low power valve amps and it's probably the output impedance which makes the difference rather than the power. In specs the output impedance is usually quoted as "damping factor" rather than output impedance.


... bought a Sony receiver for £69 and it's fantastic and has better bass control.
Again, could be the output impedance which makes the difference.

[paulf-2007]

The extra power might be a red herring and it may be the amplifier's lower output impedance which makes the difference. High power SS amps tend to have a much lower output impedance than low power valve amps and it's probably the output impedance which makes the difference rather than the power. In specs the output impedance is usually quoted as "damping factor" rather than output impedance.


Again, could be the output impedance which makes the difference.40w is not particularly high power in the scheme of things but compared with 4w is. But I agree with you regarding output impedance. Like most things hifi the difference is minimal r.e. bass control.