Please help! Ortofon 2M Bronze on a PL-71

[Dizastical]

Hey guys. Im having a super hard time getting my 2M Bronze to sound right on my PL-71 turntable. I have just upgraded from a 2M Blue that sounded pretty good to me. I have about 10 hours of tweaking and adjusting on the Bronze with no success. I have read countless threads on cartridge alignment and setup. I just can not for the life of me get this thing to sound right. Here is what I have done so far. I have my 2M Bronze mounted to a Pro-Ject Signature headshell. Im wondering if maybe my problems stem from the fact that the headshell @ 12 grams is too heavy for my stock Pioneer S shaped tone arm. Maybe someone can chime in on this? My 2M Blue is mounted to a $40 Ortofon standard silver headshell. I went with the Pro-Ject Signature headshell (aluminum version) so I could adjust Azimuth. Plus I figured the 2M Bronze would love a more solid headshell. I have adjusted the alignment with the Hi Fi new Test record protractor. I used the 2 point protractor. To get the inner and outer points dead on, I am at about 53mm from the back of the O-ring on headshell to stylus tip. I have adjusted Azimuth with a guage as well. I have the VTF set to 1.7. I have read that running the Bronze at the higher end of the VTF range (1.5-1.7) gives the best sound and least amount of mistracking and distortion. I found this to be true with the 2M Blue running the VTF at the higher end of the scale. My anti skate seems to be best at 2.0. I have played around with it on the test tones and I get the best results at AS set to 2.0. The imaging seems nices and centered to me so I have left it there for now. I think my problem may be with VTA. S you may or may not know the PL-71 is horrible to set VTA with. There are no guide lines to measure off of. I use digital calipers to measure the height of the arm assmbly right where the anti skate knob is. This gives me an idea of how low or high of an adjustment I made. I have a clear Azimuth gauge with the grid lines on it. I use this to measure VTA directly at the headshell. Right now I have it ever so slightly and I mean SLIGHTLY tail down. It seems like from totally horizontal to slightly tail down I lose vocals a bit. They seem to be in the background. Thats the best way I can describe it. If I move the tail up the highs get a little overpowering and screechy. The SSSSSSS are too smeared and the bass disappears.

On a side note..... When I first installed the new cart it sounded so amazing! I have the VTA perfectly horizontal. After a few days (4 records) I noticed that I lost some bass and the highs were a little too bright. I rechecked the alignment and found that the VTA had changed! The front was down, tail up. Maybe the stylus broke in a bit? It does not ride low to my eyes. Seems to ride the same height as my Blue. I reset my VTA and VTF and AS. Not sure why the cart dropped the VTA. Maybe someone has some ideas?

So thats where I am at right now. Im very frustrated. I like tinkering and finding the sweet spot but that has yet to happen and I feel defeated. Maybe the PL-71 is not the best TT for this cart/headshell combo? Maybe I need a better more accurate protractor? I have no idea how to plug in the numbers for an ARC style protractor. I have measured my spindle to tone arm pivot and it is indeed 209.5 as stated in manual. But I have no clue what other values need to be plugged into protractor calculators or what style protractor I need to get this sweet spot I keep hearing about. Pleas help guys! Im new to this and I know how good it can sound but I cant seem to dial it in. This post is my last chance to get this figured out before I question this TT is the right one for me. I have spent way too many hours searching the net and reading about alignment etc. PLEASE HELP!

Thanks for all your time!
Dave

[walpurgis]

How old is the Bronze? If it's new, it may want more running in before it 'comes on song'.

[Dizastical]

I have run 7 records through it so far.

[Ian7633]

I haven't used a 2M Bronze but I had a 2m Black for some time and they are very, VERY fussy about set up. VTA was the really critical part, just the slightest movement up or down would completely change the sound, I found that it liked to be slightly tail down but the difference between a great sound and just wrong was minute. It really was just trial and error until I found the sweet spot. I had the VTF set at 1.8. The 2M's are very frustrating to set up but pay dividends when you hit that sweet spot.

[Dizastical]

Thanks for the info! Is it ok to run the VTF @ 1.8 even though the max recommended is 1.7? Why did you choose to run it @ 1.8? Was there a benefit in sound quality? Thank you for your help!

[karma67]

its horses for courses dave,i ran my 2m black at 1.7g and also at 1.5 towards the end of ownership.it tracked well at both settings.

[Svend N]

Dave, a couple of thoughts to add to this... I have a 2M Bronze as well, and Ian is quite correct that it is sensitive to VTA, VTF and AS. It is also more compliant than the Blue, so given the fact that you're using a heavier headshell may have pushed it over the edge wrt. to resonance. Is the arm a medium mass arm? Not familiar with that deck, but the whole mass might be too much for the compliance of the stylus. You might want to try mounting it on the lighter headshell (I know, more time and effort, but might be worth it). Check out the cartridge resonance evaluator over at Vinylengine: https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php Plug in all the numbers for your arm, headshell, and cartridge weight, and then see if you're in the green range.

Next thought -- it has a different motor than the Blue, so it's possible there's a capacitance thing going on. I seem to recall reading that the Bronze and Black are fussy about cable and preamp capacitance. Is there any way you can adjust or change this? Swapping phono cables? Adjusting a preamp setting? Swapping preamps (borrow from a buddy if need be)?

Finally, you might want to look at the headshell wiring... Recheck the tightness of your headshell leads on the pins. When mounting/unmounting and yanking away on these delicate connectors and wires, it's easy to bugger things up. Also worth doing is a continuity test from RCAs to cart pins to make sure it's all clear and there's no break anywhere, and do the ground as well. And then check that all the cart pins are wired to the right headshell pins -- sorry, not being insulting here by stating the obvious, just trying to eliminate what is a very easy mistake to make.

Best of luck with this. Hate to say it, but there's more work ahead to figure it out.

Let us know how you do with it.

Cheers,
Svend

[RobbieGong]

Hi Dave, no exactly how you feel.

The 2M Black drove me to near self combustion at times trying and trying and trying and (crying) then trying somemore to nail that sweetspot.

But percsevere we must and do.

I learned so much about set up due to that thing it is untrue.

One thing I will never ever not have is on the fly. Even then it aint easy but with the carts I really enjoy ie: Shibata clad Ortofons, I find that the window for the sweetspot after all the other set up parimeters have been addressed is really really tiny and even dialling in ever so carefully has to be done smoothly and carefully, (no sausage fingered cack-handedness will do) whilst listening ever so intently as if your life depends on it and then -bingo AND tighten / lock it in without getting losing where it's at, containing the excitement til its locked in and done - Yeeehaww always follows :D

I've always wondered how others with incremental manual adjustment get on with carts like the Ortofon Blacks and the Replicants stylus whcih re also tricky to nail :scratch:
The Bronze I dont believe is as hard to nail, it's not a theme I'm aware of reading like the Black whcih is well known.

Make sure you set things to manufacturers recommended settings to start with.

If you are using digital scale try and make sure that when the stylus sits on the platform the height is represtive of where your record on the amt would be ie: real world playing height position - get up close and check.

If you find a big difference then remove the mat and put the scale on the platter, do what you have to to set tracking force at the right height otherwise your tracking force will be well off when it comes to it.

I'm sure you have the amp, everything nice and warmed up and the stylus too ie: you've played a side or two (turn the volume down as your not doing it to listen but to just to warm things up. I cant listen with the volume up until the thing is right anyway :rolleyes: )

Do you know what you're listening for ? Not being funny but it's really hard if you dont. I've become very good at just hearing that point, it's very subtle though and even then I've not got it every single time I've thought I had - there's been the odd occassion where I've had to go again :(.

And yes do check out the resonance figure. I used this one for my Cadenza Black and bought an appropriate headshell as a result https://www.ortofon.com/support/support-hifi/resonance-frequency

Stick with it Dave and good luck, it'll happen :)

[alphaGT]

I got this off the Ortofon website. According to them, the 2M Bronze needs a 20 degree tracking angle, so I searched and found this on their site to explain.


“2.4. Tonearm level, vertical tracking angle

Cartridges are constructed so that cantilever angle corresponds to the 20 deg. record cutting angle, when the cartridge is loaded with recommended tracking force and the cartridge base is parallel with the tonearm and this again is parallel to the record surface.”

So, you need to get your VTA to get the bottom of the cart parallel to the record surface, while at the recommended tracking force. If the cantilever is not at 20 degrees, adjust the tracking force to make it so.

A trick I’ve used, with much success, is to get a magnifying glass and look directly at the needle as it sets in the groove. It should be leaning forward, at about 92 degrees, ever so slightly over straight up, leaning away from the tonearm. 92 degrees was right for my cartridge, but you may need to experiment with the 2M since they do not list this angle on their site.

And if your preamp is adjustable, try different settings on the capacitance. It will sound different but it won’t hurt anything trying different settings. The website says 150 to 300pf, if that helps any.

Good luck with it! It may take 25 Records to break in, so have patience.

Russell

[RobbieGong]

I got this off the Ortofon website. According to them, the 2M Bronze needs a 20 degree tracking angle, so I searched and found this on their site to explain.


“2.4. Tonearm level, vertical tracking angle

Cartridges are constructed so that cantilever angle corresponds to the 20 deg. record cutting angle, when the cartridge is loaded with recommended tracking force and the cartridge base is parallel with the tonearm and this again is parallel to the record surface.”

So, you need to get your VTA to get the bottom of the cart parallel to the record surface, while at the recommended tracking force. If the cantilever is not at 20 degrees, adjust the tracking force to make it so.

A trick I’ve used, with much success, is to get a magnifying glass and look directly at the needle as it sets in the groove. It should be leaning forward, at about 92 degrees, ever so slightly over straight up, leaning away from the tonearm. 92 degrees was right for my cartridge, but you may need to experiment with the 2M since they do not list this angle on their site.

And if your preamp is adjustable, try different settings on the capacitance. It will sound different but it won’t hurt anything trying different settings. The website says 150 to 300pf, if that helps any.

Good luck with it! It may take 25 Records to break in, so have patience.

Russell

Tracking angle stated same as the Black then. Always found a slightly negative rake is where the sweetspot is at, never parrallel with any of the Blacks Ive had and Ive had all three 2M, Quintet and now Cadenza - all 20 deg.

[Ian7633]

As Robert and Svend have said there are so many variables but the end result is well worth it and the bonus is that you will learn loads about cartridge set up. Good luck with it, you'll love it when you here the sparkle.

[Dizastical]

Thanks for all the help guys. Im not sure how to use or read the calculator in the link. Here are my specs:

Tone arm mass = 18g. (is this correct? i cant find solid info)
Headshell = 12g.
Cart weight with screws = 7.8g.

Any help with trying to find out if my cart/headshell is optimum would be great!

As for the other points brought up....

- I am using a vintage Pioneer SX-750 with a built in pre amp.
- I have checked all connection. All ok.
- I use a digital scale to measure VTF. I set it to the exact height of an average record so I can achieve the best accuracy.
- Lastly, I have heard the sweet spot on my 2M Blue. Im not sure exactly what the sweet spot sounds like on the Bronze but what I do know is that it just does not seem to sound correct right now. The mids are bloated and almost resignating (the best way i can describe it). Highs seem to be covered in a blanket. Bass is just not very detailed and is lacking body.

You guys have been great! Thanks for being patient with me.

Dave

[paulf-2007]

If they are that finicky, how does it work with different thicknesses of vinyl, sounds a right pain in the arse.

[alphaGT]

Tracking angle stated same as the Black then. Always found a slightly negative rake is where the sweetspot is at, never parrallel with any of the Blacks Ive had and Ive had all three 2M, Quintet and now Cadenza - all 20 deg.

I see, so perhaps if you kept the bottom parallel, and increased the tracking force, you’d wind up with the same SRA, or stylus rake angle? Of course increasing the tracking force can have its own issues, especially without exceeding the recommended force. Tilting it back may help keep it from exceeding the weight limit?

I also noticed it said that the 2M Black stylus would fit the 2M Bronze cartridge, as a replacement. So they must be very similar.

I’d love to have a Cadenza Black! But I wonder about the lesser Cadenza’s? The bronze and blue are much easier on the pocket, but you never hear any reviews of them, everyone wants the black.

Russell

[Dizastical]

I have a new Ortofon SH-4 headshell. I weighs 9.4g. Would that put me in the correct range? My 2M Blue is mounted to an SH-4 and sounds great. But then I will not be able to adjust Azimuth.

Dave

[struth]

I have a new Ortofon SH-4 headshell. I weighs 9.4g. Would that put me in the correct range? My 2M Blue is mounted to an SH-4 and sounds great. But then I will not be able to adjust Azimuth.

Dave

if its sounding great i wouldnt worry

[Dizastical]

Quiet a few people run Bronze and Black carts on this table with Sumiko headshells that also come in @ 12 grams. I'm very confused why my setup would be any different.

[Svend N]

Dave, I still think the heavy headshell might be a significant part of the problem here (there may be other issues). I checked out the PL-71 and as far as I can tell it has an Acos arm that is similar if not the same as the Rega R200 that came on the first gen Planar 2 and 3 decks, which was a variant of the Lustre made by Acos for Rega. I happen to have used this very arm on my Heybrook TT2 with (you guessed it) a 2M Bronze. It sounded terrific - much better match for the Bronze than the lighter RB300 arm I used prior (@ 11.5g eff. mass). Now, the headshell that came with the Rega R200 version only weighs 7g, fully 5g lighter than yours. I'm sure you can find a Rega R200 headshell for cheap, if not free -- there are plenty of these arms about, many of which have been mothballed due to broken AS mechs. Post a want ad here and someone may help you out.

As for setup, I played with VTA a bit with my rig, and found that slightly tail down seemed to sound best. If I dropped it too far it gave the sound a character similar to what you describe - tubby midrange, lacking bass and treble. Tail too high and it was all air and no beef.

One more question: how clean is your stylus? If you've never cleaned it, I can recommend the Magic Eraser treatment. Works great! If you've never heard of this, let me know and I'll fill you in. I found this made a big difference to sound quality.

Hope this helps. Keep at it, as this cartridge is worth the effort. If your arm is indeed the same as the Acos Lustre / R200, then it's actually a great match and there's no reason you couldn't make it sing.

Best,
Svend

PS -- I used the Rega Baerwald protractor for alignment of the R200/Bronze....worked great.
PPS -- on reading your last post above, and your first post, I'm thinking this cart is just not playing nice with that Pro-Ject headshell, and/or you should try a different protractor. Seriously, try to find a nice light Rega R200 headshell and align using Baerwald and see what happens. You won't have azimuth adjustment, but I'm not sure you need it -- my Bronze sounded wonderful on the R200.

[phonomac]

Remember that the tonearm effective mass includes the headshell. Don't go double-counting

[Svend N]

Quite so. If Dave's value of 18g is correct, incl stock headshell, then using a 12g one would put him in the range of 21g +/-, assuming the stock one is about 9g or so. Best guess here....

[Cas]

If they are that finicky, how does it work with different thicknesses of vinyl, sounds a right pain in the arse.

Have to agree with this, I spent quite a while trying to get a 2m Black running right to my ears, sold it to somebody here in the end.

Then went and notched it down to a 2m Blue, sweet, have not looked back :)

[Svend N]

This shouldn't discourage Dave from working at his Bronze to get it dialed in. The Bronze is not a Black - different stylus - and his deck/arm is likely different also. There are enough folks here and elsewhere who've been able make the Bronze sound great, me included. It's probably a simple fix...he just needs to figure out what the issue is.

[Dizastical]

UPDATE

Over the weekend I took the 2M Bronze off the Pro-Ject Signature headshell. I had a brand new Ortofon SH-4 headshell that comes in at 9 grams. I decided to mount the Bronze on the SH-4. I used the lightest mounting screws I could find to save as much weight as possible. I re-aligned the cartridge, set VTF with a digital scale and then checked Azimuth. The cartridge need the tiniest bit of Azimuth adjustment to get it spot on. This may have been fine for most but my OCD wouldnt let me leave it. I loosened the fixing collar on the tonearm and was able to put clockwise pressure on the headshell while re-tightening the collar. I checked Azimuth again. BOOM! dead on! I then used the Azimuth gauge to check how level the headshell is to the playing surface. It was a little more tail down than it was with the Pro-Ject Signature headshell. I left it as is to see what the effects would be. So to be clear I left VTA exactly at the arm height it was at prior to swapping to the SH-4 headshell. VTF is set to 1.7. Used test record and set anti skate.

I was very uncertain that I would notice any results that would make me happy. BUT I figured that using a headshell that is 3 grams lighter had to make a difference right? I know the calculator said I would need a headshell that weighs about 7 grams to hit the 8-12hz sweet spot and I DO have the stock pioneer headshell which I believe is 7 grams, BUT I wanted to try the more rigid Ortofon headshell. Plus I have my 2M Blue on a SH-4 and it sounded great on this arm. Well...... I was totally floored! To my ears I hit the sweet spot and oh my is it sweet! The sound stage is huge! I gained height and width. The highs are perfect. I keep thinking they are going to miss behave at times but they have not! The mid bass is finally full and detailed. The bass is awesome. Its not smeared or bloated. Very fast and deep punch. Not overpowering in any way. I now have 10 full records on the Bronze. I know I have a long way to go before break in but wow does it sound amazing now. I played my pretty used copy of Steely Dans Gaucho last night. I couldnt stop smiling. The sound raised the hairs on my arms. I think I have nailed it guys! I want to thank everyone for all your help. And thank you for being patient with my rookie questions. I have learned a ton in the last month of tinkering with this PL-71.

Now do I replace it with a Rega Planar 6 or keep it haha?

Dave

[Svend N]

Hurrah! Well done Dave. So glad that worked out for you. And good on ya for sticking through it and not giving up. I had a strong feeling this would turn out OK for you, as I had the same (or at least very nearly the same) arm on my Heybrook, and as mentioned it sounded great with the Bronze. I really wonder now if it will sound even better with that lighter headshell :scratch: (ducking here, to avoid Dave's hurled objects :D). Seriously, if it sounds great as it is, then better to leave well enough alone and just enjoy the music.

BTW, I will be mounting that arm and cart on a Rega P3, and am really looking forward to how that will sound.

As for a Rega P6...gee, that's a tough one. Those old Japanese DD decks really sound great. Would you move the Bronze over to the P6? Reason I ask is that I originally had my Bronze mounted on a Rega RB300 arm, and wasn't really wowed by the sound. Kinda boring. A Goldring 1022 sounds much better on the RB300, and the Bronze works better on the R200/Acos arm. The today's Rega RB arms are descended from the RB300, so not sure if they would work well with the Bronze. Others who know this combo may be able to answer that one...

Cheers, and enjoy.
Svend

PS -- nice choice of music...love Steely Dan

[Dizastical]

Svend,
Thanks for all the help! The Pioneer headshell just looks flimsy and cheap if you know what I mean. Thats the only reason I did not mount the Bronze to it. The SH-4 is just more solid you know. I did wonder the same though haha. I think Im going to leave it for now. It sounds too good to change. As for the Rega Planar 6..... If I get one it would be the new version with the RB330 arm. I would use the 2M Bronze. I have not done much searching yet to see if the Bronze works well with the RB330 arm. Im not sure if I want to keep the PL-71. It sounds amazing but is finicky. Is the Planar 6 in a different league all together? Keep in mind the only receiver I have is a Pioneer SX-750. Im not sure how a Rega would sound through this receiver. It may not be a good match. Maybe I should keep the vintage set up and start a new system with a digital (current technology) amp and a newer style turntable. Im torn.

Dave

[Svend N]

Hi Dave,

I hear you about the flimsy headshell. If you've got a good match now with the SH-4, then I wouldn't mess with a good thing. TBH, the Rega headshell that came on my arm also feels a bit flimsy, so I may try that SH-4 myself and see how it works.

As for the P6, gee, I really can't say. I know it's a very good deck, but how much better than the Pioneer I couldn't say. There are a few owners of the PL-71 here, and the archives have a couple of long threads about it. Might be worth a read for some insight into how it rates vs. others. Or post a new thread asking that question....

I do know that some have commented on the diminishing cost vs. quality returns as you go up the Rega line. The new Planar 3 seems to hit the sweet spot with most, as the best bang for the buck. Further, I'm not sure that going up the range would be advisable given your present amp -- the P6 may outclass it. Unless of course you wanted to upgrade it at the same time...

In any case, given all the work you've put into the Pioneer, I'd say it's time to pour a beer and sit back and enjoy the fruits of your labour.

Best,
Svend

[Dubster68]

Tracking angle stated same as the Black then. Always found a slightly negative rake is where the sweetspot is at, never parrallel with any of the Blacks Ive had and Ive had all three 2M, Quintet and now Cadenza - all 20 deg.

As Rob said above

They tend to sound better with a little negative rake. I nearly sold mine as it was a pain but once its set it will sound do much better Dave. Also get a few more hours on it and it should change the sound over time.

[RobbieGong]

UPDATE

Over the weekend I took the 2M Bronze off the Pro-Ject Signature headshell. I had a brand new Ortofon SH-4 headshell that comes in at 9 grams. I decided to mount the Bronze on the SH-4. I used the lightest mounting screws I could find to save as much weight as possible. I re-aligned the cartridge, set VTF with a digital scale and then checked Azimuth. The cartridge need the tiniest bit of Azimuth adjustment to get it spot on. This may have been fine for most but my OCD wouldnt let me leave it. I loosened the fixing collar on the tonearm and was able to put clockwise pressure on the headshell while re-tightening the collar. I checked Azimuth again. BOOM! dead on! I then used the Azimuth gauge to check how level the headshell is to the playing surface. It was a little more tail down than it was with the Pro-Ject Signature headshell. I left it as is to see what the effects would be. So to be clear I left VTA exactly at the arm height it was at prior to swapping to the SH-4 headshell. VTF is set to 1.7. Used test record and set anti skate.

I was very uncertain that I would notice any results that would make me happy. BUT I figured that using a headshell that is 3 grams lighter had to make a difference right? I know the calculator said I would need a headshell that weighs about 7 grams to hit the 8-12hz sweet spot and I DO have the stock pioneer headshell which I believe is 7 grams, BUT I wanted to try the more rigid Ortofon headshell. Plus I have my 2M Blue on a SH-4 and it sounded great on this arm. Well...... I was totally floored! To my ears I hit the sweet spot and oh my is it sweet! The sound stage is huge! I gained height and width. The highs are perfect. I keep thinking they are going to miss behave at times but they have not! The mid bass is finally full and detailed. The bass is awesome. Its not smeared or bloated. Very fast and deep punch. Not overpowering in any way. I now have 10 full records on the Bronze. I know I have a long way to go before break in but wow does it sound amazing now. I played my pretty used copy of Steely Dans Gaucho last night. I couldnt stop smiling. The sound raised the hairs on my arms. I think I have nailed it guys! I want to thank everyone for all your help. And thank you for being patient with my rookie questions. I have learned a ton in the last month of tinkering with this PL-71.

Now do I replace it with a Rega Planar 6 or keep it haha?

Dave

Best news ever Dave, proper chuffed for you, meticulous set like a lot of things in this game is worth the pain simply because the rewards once bang on are what makes us go through this - The music and a system to support that, the passion thereof :)

[Dizastical]

Many thanks to you all! Great bunch of people on this forum. Now if I could figure out how to post pics haha.

Dave

[RobbieGong]

Many thanks to you all! Great bunch of people on this forum. Now if I could figure out how to post pics haha.

Dave

Lol, been here since 2011 and only just learned how to do it without begging the Admin guys to enlarge my piddly little jpegs.

Here you go http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?52863-Photobucket/page2

Post 14 changed my life :lol: Easy like peasey - Thank Audio Al not me :)

[alphaGT]

Congrats Dave! I like the old saying, “ if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”. Lately I was on an upgrade roll! Getting all the bugs out of my system, everything I did made an improvement! Then I got to a point like you describe, everything sounds right. I had every plan in the world to upgrade my preamp, but the more I listen, the less I want to mess with it. So if it’s working for you, why hurry to mess it up? Stay with what you have for a time, if you’ve still got urges to upgrade your ‘table in 6 months then revisit the idea. It’s not everyday that the magic happens.

Russell

[Svend N]

Congrats Dave! I like the old saying, “ if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”. Lately I was on an upgrade roll! Getting all the bugs out of my system, everything I did made an improvement! Then I got to a point like you describe, everything sounds right. I had every plan in the world to upgrade my preamp, but the more I listen, the less I want to mess with it. So if it’s working for you, why hurry to mess it up? Stay with what you have for a time, if you’ve still got urges to upgrade your ‘table in 6 months then revisit the idea. It’s not everyday that the magic happens.

Russell

+1 Great advice!

[RobbieGong]

+1 Great advice!

Agreed - That 'magic window' is also very small and sensitive - one meddle and it can be lost :eek: