A&R P77 upgrade : what next ??

[rigger67]

So I have a Sondek with an Ittok and a decent system around it but feel that I could get more from the deck.
In a previous post a few months ago I stated that CD always sounds good in my set-up while vinyl depends more on the recording and is sometimes quite dull in comparison.
Somebody identified the A&R as the weakest link so I've been thinking about upgrading.
I'm not rolling in cash right now so I'd set a budget of £150 for the upgrade, maybe a little more if I can sell the P77. The stylus was a brand new replacement when I had the deck serviced two or three years ago and I've not used it that much - definitely under 100 hours so there's nothing wrong with it per se .. I just think I can do better.

Given that it's the best cart I've ever owned and it's yonks since I even tried anything else - apart from a pair pf Ortofon Concordes I used for DJing - I really don't know where to start.

Is it better to stick to MM with that budget ?
Should I automatically go for new with a cartridge purchase ?

I don't know .. any advice would be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance :)

[walpurgis]

The only moving coil around your budget worth trying, is in my opinion the high output Denon DL-110 which will work directly into your MM input. It should be a step up from the P77 in 'musicality'.

As for MM's there are many to choose from at around the £150 mark. I don't use any, so others may advise.

To be honest, that TT and arm deserve something a little more exotic. A good choice could be the Goldring Eroica LX with a suitable MC stage or SUT. I regard the Eroica as a nice starting point into the world of decent MC's. From then on upwards it gets more and more expensive.

[Spider]

I don't think £150 is going to cut it.
That kind of budget won't be appreciably better than the P77 in my opinion. I had a P77 on an LP12 in same kind of specs as yours. I fitted a 2m Blue which did improve things but that would cot you around £240.
Your LP12 is capable of a really great sound but it needs the tools to achieve that. The Ittok is a good match with Audio Technica OC9 mkii and mkiii carts and AT33-PTG ii. These are all Moving Coil carts and would be more in line with the kind of performance boost you are looking for.
I'm afraid IMO£150 just wont do it you'll need to save up and spend around twice that, then you'll hear what vinyl can really do.
hope that helps

[rigger67]

Thank you both for the excellent advice.
To be honest, you're kinda confirming what I thought - MC is the way to go but there's no point in getting a budget model so I think I'll just wait a bit longer and save up some more dosh :)

[walpurgis]

MC is the way to go but there's no point in getting a budget model

Yup.

[cre009]

I have the relatively cheap AT-F7 mc on my Lp12/Ekos which I like. I did not get on very well with a more expensive MC on the same deck so the AT-F7 was an experiment that worked quite well for me.

[hifi_dave]

An Audio Technica AT-F2 or AT-F7 should do the job. Fast, clean and fun, much more exciting than the P77.

[montesquieu]

Thank you both for the excellent advice.
To be honest, you're kinda confirming what I thought - MC is the way to go but there's no point in getting a budget model so I think I'll just wait a bit longer and save up some more dosh :)

I ran and AT-OC9 on my LP12/Ittok for years and it was a lovely combo. I'd expect anything from the AT33 range to work well too - PTG II, ANV, EV, SA .. not in your immediate budget but not hugely expensive either.

[Mike Reed]

I would be tempted to get a moving coil, if only to experience a different (and more dynamic?) presentation, as your phono stage is fully equipped. According to the spec's, though, anything with a very low output might not suit. However, anything with 0.4 to 0.7 mV (at 5 cms/sec) should be fine. Def. worth saving up for a lightly used one with provenance or discounted new one, which'll need running in, unfortunately.

Recommendations as above posts; I've no idea at this level, though I did run a Karma in my Tiktok/LP12 donkey's years ago.

[walpurgis]

I would be tempted to get a moving coil, if only to experience a different (and more dynamic?) presentation

It's not about dynamics Mike. In fact some may say MM's tend more in that direction. It's more like the general (and not necessarily true) perception of differences between valve amps and solid state. Good MC's give a tremendous soundstage, ambience and transparency. It's difficult to put into words, but 'fluidity and musicality' may do. Most non MC's less so (but not always).

[rigger67]

Some great tips and advice in here.
Thank you very much everyone, it's much appreciated :youtheman:

[Mike Reed]

It's not about dynamics Mike. In fact some may say MM's tend more in that direction. It's more like the general (and not necessarily true) perception of differences between valve amps and solid state. Good MC's give a tremendous soundstage, ambience and transparency. It's difficult to put into words, but 'fluidity and musicality' may do. Most non MC's less so (but not always).

Maybe the wrong word, though your three apt descriptions are my kind of 'dynamic'. In truth, though I went through the Shure lot to the V15 in the early seventies, I had an Onlife (h/o coil for quadraphonic purposes) and a Decca (C4E?) before embarking on l.o. coils, so quite a gap between. That Decca had to be the epitome of 'dynamic', I s'pose.. One can't generalise re. cart's, and I may well be positively surprised by one or two of today's m/magnets. However, too late now, methinks !:)

The idea that you can get the same level of transcription from a cart. which has a removable ( and consequently less finely engineered ) stylus assembly has long been my yardstick. They are not alternatives (with maybe one exception?) except at the lower end and there are reasons, i.m.o., for this.

[walpurgis]

I had an Onlife (h/o coil for quadraphonic purposes)

Early incarnation of Dynavector if I recall. I've a feeling the first 20a was badged Onlife.

[Mike Reed]

Early incarnation of Dynavector if I recall. I've a feeling the first 20a was badged Onlife.

You recall well ! Knew it was an established brand and suspected Dv but wasn't sure. Think mine was a 10A, but the mists of time........?

[walpurgis]

You recall well ! Knew it was an established brand and suspected Dv but wasn't sure. Think mine was a 10A, but the mists of time........?

I may even have an early brochure somewhere. I have loads of obscure stuff. :)

[hifi_dave]

Early incarnation of Dynavector if I recall. I've a feeling the first 20a was badged Onlife.

Ultimo was their original name. I still have a couple of them.

[Stryder5]

I found the XLPS to be fairly flat, lifeless and 2 dimensional some while ago.

If you can pick up a second hand Project Tube Box II and perhaps replace the valves with something like Harma 7025's, this should be around £140 ish, whatever you change the cartridge to, I think will benefit.

Only my opinion, as with all things system dependant.

[Barry]

Ultimo was their original name. I still have a couple of them.

Distribute by Lowther, so the Lowther Onlife-Ultimo. The cartridge generator was housed in a red translucent case, so you could see the internal structure; unusual at the time.

[hifi_dave]

When I first encountered Ultimo/Dynavector, they were handled by a couple of nice chaps from Bromley, I believe.

[Barry]

When I first encountered Ultimo/Dynavector, they were handled by a couple of nice chaps from Bromley, I believe.

That's where Lowther are/were, I'm pretty certain they were the UK distributor initially.

[hifi_dave]

Ah, might well be.