Which to choose? A Quad 66 or a Croft 25 Basic?

[camtwister]

Hello all,

I'm upgrading from a late 70s Sugden A48 Mk.II integrated.
My source is a modified Goldring Lenco GL75. My speakers are Rogers LS7t.
I listen to Jazz (Bop, Hard Bop, Cool), greasy Fifties R'n'R and Blues.
I'm close to purchasing a Quad 606 power amp.

I'm considering a Quad 66 pre-amp or perhaps the Croft Micro 25 basic pre.
I don't need a phono input because I have a Graham Slee Era Gold V phono stage.

I'm hoping to tighten up the low and mid-bass significantly, extend the soundstage and raise an eyebrow at the dynamics but keep the sweet mids of the Sugden.

Opinions are welcome on the relative merits of these two pre-amps in front of the 606.

Thank you.

[hifi_dave]

Well, one of them is bland and uninvolving whilst measuring superbly. Then there is the Croft which is alive, dynamic, tactile, pacey, exciting and great fun but looks boring.

Does that help ? :rolleyes:

[Rare Bird]

Drop that Titanium tweeter in the 'LS-7t' that does help! :)

[camtwister]

Dave - your comments are certainly nudging me in a particular direction!
I spent most of last night reading the Croft Micro 25 thread.

Hi Andre - at the risk of being accused of having no HF hearing left, the titanium tweeters aren't a problem. They've had twenty years to settle down!
I have a lot of soft furnishings in the listening room.

If I do purchase the 606 and the Micro Basic 25, am I correct in calculating that input sensitivities and load impedances are well suited?

I'm not married to the 606 yet. I have a budget of £250-£300 for a second hand power amp. I'm set on a high current unit that will complement the vitality of a tube pre-amp and deliver excellent timing and bass control. Should I consider Musical Fidelity or Audiolab too?

[Marco]

Hi 'camtwister' and welcome to AOS - nice to see someone else here from Wales :)

Could you do me a big favour please and pop into the Welcome area of the forum and introduce yourself properly, giving your real first name and details of your system and music tastes? This is standard procedure for all new members joining our community. You can use other threads there, if you like, as a template for what is required.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

[camtwister]

Of course, Marco.

[dowser]

Go the Croft - I recently bought an old Micro II then sent it to Glen to have the output stage brought up to latest spec, and am very happy.

Richard

[DSJR]

The LS7T needs to be well off the floor (30cm at least) and a good way from walls. Do this and the bass won't boom too much. Use a good gauge speaker cable (4mm or 6mm is preferred) to maintain what little damping the 606 will offer you..

The 66 isn't bland as HiFi dave suggests (unlike the 34 by comparison), but rock-n-roll it doesn't unless it's got some electrostatics on the end, as losses become additive....

The Micro basic isn't currently available I understand, so I'd save up for a proper series 25 if I were you, or look for a good used Croft and get it to Glenn for fettling...

The Quad 77 preamp had an optional clumsy remote control which was a disaster in its early days. I found the sound very sweet and airy, with a lovely classic-valve like way of reproduction - Glenn's products no longer sound "classic-valve" and haven't for nearly twenty years, to be fair...

[YNWaN]

I'm afraid I'm with Dave on this one - I also remember the Quad as he describes.

[Alex_UK]

Which Dave though! :scratch:
:)

[Themis]

Hi John,

I would recommend the Croft 25 pre. If you can ask Glenn whether he can make one for you without the phono stage, perhaps you could get the higher model for less.
I tested the "normal" 25 pre fifteen days ago against some very well-known preamps (all around 2000€) and... all the listeners had no problems deciding which one to pick. The 25 pre kills everything around its price.
I had the basic for some time before upgrading, and all the main characteristics are already there. The "basic" is a bit more "liquid" and less analytical, it will certainly depend on the rest of your setup. In my case, I had put it in front of a Denon amp and it completely transformed it into a high-end component. Truly amazing! :)

As Dave (DSJR) says, I recommend saving for a normal 25 pre, though. Bear in mind that you'll probably keep it for life : I doubt you'll ever have the need of upgrading the preamplifier... ;)

[YNWaN]

Which Dave though! :scratch:
:)

Ah, good point :), hifi dave (I'm not much of a fan of Quad's amplification).

[DSJR]

Well I AM, for some cack-handed reason :ner:

As long as you don't use speakers with useless and silly loads.....

P.S. Quad amps sound great into big Tannoys...............

[camtwister]

Thank you for the input all.

Yes - My LS7t’s are on open stands about 45cm off the floor, sitting on three spikes per box. The stereo image is certainly improved in free space and I agree that the bass is tighter when away from walls. I’m using Atlas Hyper 3.0 cable and Chord Rumour to link the posts. The phase-coherence of the two-way design, solidity in the mid-bass from the 8” driver and the articulation of that famous titanium tweeter are the strengths of these speakers, in my opinion.

Your advice (and the hours that I’ve spent reading previous posts) is leading to a re-think. If I sell a kidney and eat baked beans for six months, I could raise £1000. This would fund a Series 7 and a Basic 25 pre. Or, possibly, a Micro 25 without a phono stage and a Series 7. If I invest in these amplifiers, my upgrade path for the foreseeable future will be restricted to cartridge changes and second-hand arms on the Lenco. An interesting challenge. My Rogers will have to stay and the Harbeth’s will remain a lustful dream for a few more years.

My vinyl collection is predominantly 1960s jazz and 1950s rhythm ‘n’ blues. So, I don’t require an overly analytical system nor earthquake-like sub. What I’m trying to achieve is dynamics and excellent transient response/timing - presented in a rich, cohesive manner. It’s gotta thrill me like a Rock-o-la jukebox but still withstand critical listening.

Lenco, Graham Slee phono stage, Croft pre and power, Rogers. Will it work?

[hifi_dave]

That will work, no doubt but the Graham Slee is a bit of overkill as the Croft can be had with a superior phono stage incorporated. MM only of course.

[Macca]

Lenco, Graham Slee phono stage, Croft pre and power, Rogers. Will it work?

You can try the Croft pre-power on approval and find out. If it doesn't it won't have cost you anything (okay, maybe the return carriage).

[DSJR]

Can I suggest you wait until you can afford the Croft 25/Series 7? I promise you that you will not be in the slightest disappointed with them :)

Contrary to what some may say on here, if you do go with the Quad 606, just make sure you don't pay too much for it so you can recoup the outlay later if you wish. 606's are starting to age now and the usual cap changes will now have to be considered. Dada do a wiring loom I understand, which may clean things up a little and I remember the mk1 version of the 606 always needed a couple of hours from switch-on to fully come on song - the mk2 was better in this respect (I had the two side by side)

[camtwister]

Dave R - do you think that my source and speakers are 'good enough' to justify the outlay on the Croft 25/Series 7, bearing in mind that I woudn't be able to upgrade them for some time?

[DSJR]

No matching probs at all. The Croft (and 606) isn't the sort of gear that *demands* the best ancilliaries to work properly. As long as the source is sounding clean and tidy, it'll be fine and the sound will get "bigger" should you upgrade later..

The A48 II was well thouht of in its day - a bit too warm toned to be strictly neutral and lacking the cleanliness of modern amps, but still more than ok. The Croft will just widen the possibilities of the system a good deal.

[camtwister]

Great - thanks for the reassurance.

I have to come clean and admit that I’m not chasing complete neutrality. The fattening of the sound by the A48 flatters the leaner, scratchier examples of fifty year old vinyl that I love so much. I don’t want to lose the warmth (and the tone controls allow me to lift the bass by a few dB at around 60-80 Hz when necessary), hence my consideration of valves and/or class A, but I do want to open the soundstage and improve the bass timing which is particularly slow at the moment.

The Crofts, with both valves and mosfets, are possibly the golden ticket. Unless anyone suggests other alternatives, these are what I shall listen to asap.

How does the Croft combination compare with the modern Sugden A21 series 2 integrated? An amp that may be considered a natural progression in my system...

[YNWaN]

Well I AM, for some cack-handed reason :ner:

Umm...indeed ;)

[DSJR]

Great - thanks for the reassurance.

I have to come clean and admit that I’m not chasing complete neutrality. The fattening of the sound by the A48 flatters the leaner, scratchier examples of fifty year old vinyl that I love so much. I don’t want to lose the warmth (and the tone controls allow me to lift the bass by a few dB at around 60-80 Hz when necessary), hence my consideration of valves and/or class A, but I do want to open the soundstage and improve the bass timing which is particularly slow at the moment.

The Crofts, with both valves and mosfets, are possibly the golden ticket. Unless anyone suggests other alternatives, these are what I shall listen to asap.

How does the Croft combination compare with the modern Sugden A21 series 2 integrated? An amp that may be considered a natural progression in my system...

I've only heard current Sugden a very few times, but very warm toned and slightly silky-soft comes to mind - nothing like the fun, evrr-so-slightly dirty punch of your amp..