PDA

View Full Version : VTAF for Jelco SA-750D on SL-1210



Ammonite Audio
02-03-2010, 21:22
Pete Riggle has confirmed that my VTAF for the Jelco SA-750D/SL-1210 is on its way. He sent this image as a taster:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s301/hugocass/Sl-1210/100_3300.jpg

Being flat, this particular custom armboard means that it will only work with thick mats (like mine). The VTAF is much slimmer than the Jelco collar so the arm should sit low enough, but I may have to cut out a hole in the armboard to make room for the bottom of the cueing mechanism for thinner mats. I might experiment with acrylic armboards, just for fun.

It's difficult to assess from this photo whether Pete has set the correct mounting distance for the Jelco, but I'm sure it will be OK.

It's unlikely to be here before Scalford, alas, as I would have liked to have showed it around. I should be there with Steve (Snoopdog).

Marco
02-03-2010, 21:49
Hi Shuggs,

Looks interesting! Keep me posted of developments and we can perhaps have a sesh at your place sometime in the summer :)

I look forward to seeing you guys at Scalford Hall on Sunday where I will be exposing my rather 'rude' Lockwood Majors to some poor assembled victims! :lol: ;)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
02-03-2010, 22:30
The standard 750 has VTA adjustment out of the box, so I'm a bit lost here? Do check carefully the 214mm spindle to pivot dimension too!

Does this allow all the cartridge energy to dissipate properly?

Dave

The Grand Wazoo
02-03-2010, 23:55
I look forward to seeing you guys at Scalford Hall on Sunday where I will be exposing my rather 'rude' Lockwood Majors to some poor assembled victims!


Just as long as you'll be keeping your crack to yerself, Marco my man. Some folks can't cope with that sort of behaviour (..........pity the poor folks with hangovers on Sunday morning).

Marco
03-03-2010, 00:12
Oh, don't worry, but if not I'll wait until well after lunch has been served!! :lol:

Marco.

blake
03-03-2010, 03:35
The standard 750 has VTA adjustment out of the box, so I'm a bit lost here? Do check carefully the 214mm spindle to pivot dimension too!

Does this allow all the cartridge energy to dissipate properly?

Dave

The Riggle VTAF's main "claim to faim" is VTA adjustment on the fly which would clearly not be for the faint of heart using the 750D stock:eyebrows:

I'm a 750D owner and can admit that VTA on the fly might be useful but it is pushing anal retentiveness and audiophile nervosa beyond limits which I'm comfortable with (I don't own or have any experience with the Riggle).

The Riggle also "decouples" the arm from the rest of the table and this is an area in which some disagreement surfaces on what it, in fact, does to the sound. There are those who swear by its "improvements" and those, on the other hand, who claim it negatively effects sound quality (particularly in terms of PRAT); from what I can see (and read), the disagreements are pretty similar to those who feel the Pederson (decoupling) mods on the Gyrodec are beneficial and those who feel they are not.

Ammonite Audio
03-03-2010, 07:32
The standard 750 has VTA adjustment out of the box, so I'm a bit lost here? Do check carefully the 214mm spindle to pivot dimension too!

Does this allow all the cartridge energy to dissipate properly?

Dave

Much as I like the SA-750D (and I really do), its pillar fixing is rather loose (sloppy, even); and it's consequently difficult to get the vertical alignment correct, without overtightening the very small grub screw. I demonstrated that to Marco the other week. It's not impossible to set it correctly, of course (particularly with the help of one of Audio Origami's headshell spirit levels), but I have found that this is the key to getting the Jelco to sing. It's very easy to get an awful sound from the arm; in fact easier than getting it to sing.

So, the VTAF seems to be a well-engineered way of ensuring utterly consistent vertical alignment, with the added benefit of easy and fine VTA adjustment (I'm not obsessive about that, BTW, but I do know that it's important). The fact that the arm sits in the VTAF solely under its own weight, and that it's naturally decoupled is interesting - whether it works is another thing, and I shall of course be reporting back on that! As you are aware, I do like to plough an alternative furrow now and again, so hopefully my experiments are of interest to other Technics owners here on AoS.

Dave Cawley
03-03-2010, 08:23
the disagreements are pretty similar to those who feel the Pederson (decoupling) mods on the Gyrodec are beneficial and those who feel they are not.

Ah yes! In the latest Hi Fi World there is a review of a 12" 750 that I fitted to a Gyrodec. I mounted the arm plate with solid metal pillars. And that's why my 1200 armplate works so well, they are anything but decoupled! The 750 likes high energy moving coil cartridges and to deliberately decouple the arm in the way proposed here, is contrary to most peoples idea of what is good.

Also matching the right parts to give a holistic system is important, Shuggie has never been overly happy with his 750, but he seems to be the only one using a 2M black?

Regards

Dave

Snoopdog
03-03-2010, 09:37
Oh, don't worry, but if not I'll wait until well after lunch has been served!! :lol:

Marco.

Marco,

As it will be Sunday, I do hope you won't be 'flossing' with the wife's thong :stalks:

Marco
03-03-2010, 10:05
Hi Steve,

It won't really matter, mate, as the dress will hide it!! :lol: :lol:

Marco.

Ammonite Audio
03-03-2010, 10:33
.......... Shuggie has never been overly happy with his 750, but he seems to be the only one using a 2M black?

Regards

Dave

Please don't make statements like that on my behalf. The 2M Black does work very nicely with the 750, thank you; however I have found that the correct vertical alignment of the arm pillar and the tightness of the grub screw are critical to getting good results.

Dave Cawley
03-03-2010, 10:49
Hi Shuggie, it was only an observation based on what you have said over the last few months. No offence meant at all!

Dave

Marco
03-03-2010, 11:19
Hi Dave,

Yup, however having heard Shuggie's Ortofon 2M Black on his deck in my system, I can say quite categorically that it works perfectly well on the SA-750.

I don't like it as much as I do my DL-103SA (as of course you'd expect) but it certainly plays music rather nicely indeed :)

However, the jury is still out for me on the efficacy of the Riggle VTAF, primarily due to what Blake wrote earlier:


The Riggle also "decouples" the arm from the rest of the table and this is an area in which some disagreement surfaces on what it, in fact, does to the sound.


I'm not sure if that's going to be a good thing, however no doubt Shuggs will inform us whether or not it is in due course, and if he likes it, I'm sure that I'll get a listen myself in due course :cool:

Marco.

Ammonite Audio
03-03-2010, 11:32
Hi Shuggie, it was only an observation based on what you have said over the last few months. No offence meant at all!

Dave

Thanks - perhaps I pounced onto the keyboard rather too readily, and I apologise for that!


However, the jury is still out for me on the efficacy of the Riggle VTAF, primarily due to what Blake wrote earlier:


The Riggle also "decouples" the arm from the rest of the table and this is an area in which some disagreement surfaces on what it, in fact, does to the sound.

I'm not sure if that's going to be a good thing, however no doubt Shuggs will inform us whether or not it is in due course, and if he likes it, I'm sure that I'll get a listen myself in due course

Marco.

I do hope that it is a Good Thing! But, we shall see (or rather, hear). One key feature with the VTAF is that it will be very easy to swap arms between the Technics and the old Kenwood, which I must get up and running again as Marco did express an interest in hearing it.

Dave Cawley
03-03-2010, 11:41
I share the views of Avid, SME, Clearaudio and others. And that is why I stick my neck out and modified the Gyrodec to be perfectly hard without a trace of decoupling!

Regards

Dave

Marco
03-03-2010, 12:48
One key feature with the VTAF is that it will be very easy to swap arms between the Technics and the old Kenwood, which I must get up and running again as Marco did express an interest in hearing it.


Indeed. I would love to hear the Kenwood in its various 'guises', so we'll need to do it sometime :)

Marco.

Ammonite Audio
04-03-2010, 14:58
The US postal service is obviously on the ball, as the VTAF arrived this afternoon. So, an evening on my knees in front of the rack is in order :eek:

Marco
04-03-2010, 15:01
Oooh... We can't wait to hear the verdict! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Ammonite Audio
04-03-2010, 19:14
I'm sorry Marco, you'll have to wait a bit for the verdict! There is a bit of an "Arthur Scargill"* in that the VTAF adjuster wheel is too big, and fouls the Jelco's lift/lower device. I've sent photos to Pete Riggle, and I'm sure he'll sort something out. I did set it up without the lift/lower device, and the sound is notably full in the lower registers, but that's as far as I can comment at this point. Anyway, here are a few phots:

The VTAF bushing in the custom armboard, showing the vertical guides that stop the arm from rotating:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s301/hugocass/Sl-1210/DSCF0525.jpg

The Jelco/VTAF on the deck, minus the lift/lower device:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s301/hugocass/Sl-1210/DSCF0522.jpg

I'm sure it will all come good eventually!



* Minor problem.

Ammonite Audio
04-03-2010, 20:31
I'm pleased to report that Pete Riggle has already replied to me, and is making up a smaller adjuster wheel. That's good, reassuring service. Having replaced the other armboard with the Jelco mounting collar onto the Technics, I sense that the deck is sounding less 'free' than with the VTAF; indeed it sounds relatively 'matter-of-fact'. Far too little time to make conclusive comments, of course, but encouraging for the VTAF nevertheless.

So, for those interested in following this little experiment, please be patient for another week or so.

Ammonite Audio
02-04-2010, 18:22
Although the smaller VTAF adjuster wheel has still not yet arrived chez moi, I have been trying it out again on the Technics, with considerable success. I will qualify that immediately, because the VTAF makes my Ortofon 2M Black sing like a singing thing - it really does sound very classy in the 750D in comparison to the Jelco hard mounting collar. The story is not the same for my MC cartridges (Ortfon Kontrapunkt B and AT-OC5), where the sound becomes rather squashed. The explanation is probably what Dave Cawley says a few posts back, since the MM cartridge puts much less energy into the arm than MCs; and that MC derived energy needs a path to follow, which the VTAF quite deliberately avoids.

I'm very pleased with this, because having been exposed to Marco's DL-103SA, I have been aware that my 2M Black is rather cool and clinical in comparison; and that I rather like the big, bold and old-fashioned sound of Marco's system. The VTAF allows the 2M Black to blossom, giving a much more extended and nicely elastic bass, with a natural feel to string sounds etc which, while accurately portrayed before, could nevertheless be a tad wearing sometimes. I may yet get a new MC cartridge, like the AT33PTG that Martin has, but in the meantime the 2M Black has a considerable new lease of life.

ninja
14-10-2011, 05:44
Any news? Have you got smaller adjuster wheel?

Ammonite Audio
14-10-2011, 06:21
I have; and since I no longer have the SL-1210, the whole Technics/Jelco VTAF kit is surplus to my requirements and for sale, if anyone is interested.

colinB
14-10-2011, 11:44
I remember this thread but i cant work out why you made your purpose built collar after fitting the Riggle piece :scratch: Can you remind me please Hugh?

Ammonite Audio
14-10-2011, 18:16
Colin

It was because although the VTAF worked really well with my moving magnet 2M Black, it was not really suited to my preferred moving coils, so that's when I decided to look at the standard Jelco collar and it irritating design flaws. So, for someone with a good MM cartridge, the VTAF is well worth a look.

colinB
14-10-2011, 18:35
Thanks. I use the 2m but i need to check the new jelco i havent got round to fitting yet. Its the older 750 so i dont know if it has the same stem. Plus im moving next week so i really shouldnt.
I`ll take my chances and ask you about it later if you still have it.

Ammonite Audio
14-10-2011, 19:54
Thanks. I use the 2m but i need to check the new jelco i havent got round to fitting yet. Its the older 750 so i dont know if it has the same stem. Plus im moving next week so i really shouldnt.
I`ll take my chances and ask you about it later if you still have it.

The stem diameter is the same for all these Jelcos, so the VTAF will fit! You're welcome to try it out if you wish.

colinB
14-10-2011, 21:45
That would be great Hugh.