Do I need a separate DAC...?

[Haselsh1]

Do I need a separate DAC…?

I’ve posted fragmented versions of this question elsewhere on this forum but this is the first outright question.

I have a Chinese Original 2008F HDCD player which is a 24 bit 192 kHz upsampling cd player. Since I bought the gorgeously transparent Croft pre/power amplifier combo I have been left very dissatisfied with the CD player. The upper midrange and treble is very coarse, sandpapery and confused when things start to get all anxious in the music. As soon as the cymbals get crashing and keyboards turn up the volume I always get the distinct impression it would sound better if I switched it all off.

I have replaced the Original with an old Sony CD/DVD/SACD player that cost around 120 quid and the treble is much clearer as is the stereo imaging but the Sony is very thick and congested in the upper bass/midrange. So the Sony, although curing one problem, introduces many more. It is here that I have been thinking about the latest Spitfire DAC to add to the Original. There is also of course, the Beresford Caiman. Would a digital output from the Original be compatible with the Spitfire DAC…? I do not know what kind of output the Original puts out.

My problem is whether a separate DAC would bring about a radical change of sound quality. If the difference is not going to be extreme then I shall keep the cash as 260 quid would buy me an awful lot of vinyl. My vinyl playing system is almost perfect to my ears so why can’t I get that sheer quality from my CD playback…? Surely this is possible…??

Do I need a separate DAC…???

[Themis]

I think that non-upsampling dacs complement better Croft's pre and power than upsampling ones. The Croft's pre keeps non-upsampling dacs musical and fatigue-free (which has more to do with mastering than with the dacs, btw).

You should give a Caiman a serious listen, that's what I would suggest. ;)

(I insist: non-upsampling. Don't mix up with non-oversampling dacs, which are something completely different)

[Haselsh1]

Themis... many thanks for your opinion. On the basis of what you and others say, I've just ordered a Beresford Caiman.

[Alex_UK]

I don't think you'll regret it, Shaun - in fact I dare bet you'll be blown away for the money... (More to the point, I can actually read your posts now they are left and not centre justified! ;) )

[dave2010]

Shaun

I'll be very interested to hear how you get on. Over a week ago I bought a DACMagic on trial from Richer Sounds. It was OK - but I couldn't in honesty hear any difference apart from on USB input, when it was very good. I took it back. Maybe I should have hung on a bit longer, but I really couldn't justify it, and I did try hard to hear meaningful differences.

This week I spoke to Stanley Beresford on Monday, and ordered a Caiman, which arrived on Tuesday. Initially I couldn't hear much difference - again - though as with the DACMagic the USB input was very much better. Tonight I'm listening - stupidly - to tracks by Julian Bream via Napster through my Squeezebox (SB3 Classic). The SB3 is very good, and heck - this is only mp3. After a while I noticed a difference. Not quite sure whether it is only the Caiman, or the fact that the cables are slightly different (both reasonable quality), but basically I can hear detail with the feed through the Caiman which is nothing like so pronounced with the direct analogue feed. I switch between them with a cheap switch, so I can compare them very quickly. There may be a slight bias because of different volume levels, but I don't think it's that. I can hear all sorts of squeaking noises as Bream draws his fingers over the strings. They're there otherwise - but don't sound so real. This is really good.

Before now I was a bit sceptical, but probably not for much longer. On Tuesday I listened to Glazunov Symphony 5 by Serebrier via Spotify - again via the Caiman. I was very surprised at the quality. Few CDs have ever sounded that good on my system before, and this was mp3 via the internet.

Maybe I'm deluding myself - after all I paid around 250 pounds for this - but I'm beginning to think there is a real difference.

Would be interested to hear your views - you may even have got yours by now.

Dave

[Haselsh1]

Dave2010; I'll happily post a mini comment/review when my Caiman arrives. I have heard many a comment that these DAC's require a considerable run in period so I shall give it plenty of time before responding. I shall also be connecting via optical Toslink cable as I have no use for USB.

As my taste in music falls a lot short of your classical choice it's probably best that I don't harp on about music you have no knowledge of so I'll keep my comments towards details and inflections in the sound and the various instruments played.

It'll be very interesting to see how the Caiman changes the sound when compared to a 24 bit 192 kHz CD player with aggresive op amps as it's output devices. I'm looking forward to learning just what two hundred and fifty quid buys you these days.

[Haselsh1]

Thursday 4th March 2010
Caiman arrived at 12:58 and had played three CD’s so far.

Result: Staggering !

Test CD’s: Yola by Eleanor McEvoy. My One and Only Thrill by Melody Gardot. Arborescence by Ozric Tentacles.

The first thing that is so blatantly obvious about this DAC is the sheer silence of the musical silences. The background is dark and deep and very quiet. The second thing that has hit home on first play is the sheer naturalness of the overall sound. Eleanor McEvoy’s voice is displayed with massive clarity so that you can almost hear her forming her words in her mouth. This is the most analogue I have ever heard CD sound.

The stereo imaging is no better than my Original CD player in any respect so I am OK with that being the case but there are so many areas were this DAC just blows me away. I have never heard Ozric Tentacles sound so crystal clear and laid back with their beautiful reverb shown as it should be. This is amazing stuff.

At the moment I am using an optical interconnect and have already heard two glitches in the sound that I would say are caused by the said interconnect. I have yet to try a good old copper cable. That is for tomorrow.

So far this is astonishing. I am mightily impressed.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

good news ...

[daveyboy]

Rip your cd's to lossless then the wow factor comes in, or it did for me anyway :)

[Stratmangler]

I'm pleased that it works for you Shaun - the sound improves with time as things run in.
Which transport have you used so far, and have you tried the other one ?

Chris:)

[Themis]

Very good move Shaun ! :)

I attribute myself the "silence" you are talking about to the Croft pre and power, but certainly the Caiman accentuates the effect with its neutrality. But I won't argue on this, their combined result is what counts most.
I'm glad you are happy with this choice : a lot of listening pleasure to come, you certainly deserve it. ;)

You will also discover that older (quiet) recordings gain a lot from this synergy.

[Haselsh1]

Strat, so far I have only used the Chinese Original CD player as a transport as I wish to get used to the sound before switching over to the Sony. At the moment I am using an optical cable as an interconnect but today I am going to change over to a copper RAC connector. It'll be interesting to see if that makes a difference.

The most striking thing for me about the sound of the Caiman is the total lack of graininess in the upper mid/lower treble. This was the biggest complaint I had with the Chinese Original. The sound was coarse and very blunt in it's presentation. The Caiman is very refined.

I do have to add though that in spite of me saying this is the most analogue I have heard CD sound, it does not equal my vinyl. I'm not saying vinyl is better anymore but it sure is very different.

I am also very pleased with the volume pot on the Caiman. This enables me to match vinyl volume with CD volume. I guess it's better to push a lower voltage into the Croft preamp than bang 2V's or more in. I now have a much more usable system. I am indeed a happy old Hector !

[Haselsh1]

Very good move Shaun ! :)

I attribute myself the "silence" you are talking about to the Croft pre and power, but certainly the Caiman accentuates the effect with its neutrality. But I won't argue on this, their combined result is what counts most.
I'm glad you are happy with this choice : a lot of listening pleasure to come, you certainly deserve it. ;)

You will also discover that older (quiet) recordings gain a lot from this synergy.

Themis, I am sure your views on the Croft pre/power are very accurate. I'm almost certain that my CD problems started with the purchase of the Croft. I personally think that the Croft is so damn transparent that all of a sudden, it completely embarassed the Original CD player and showed it up for what it actually is. My system does indeed now have a synergy that is very welcome. The onset of the Caiman has also made my speakers a lot more musical and easier to listen too. The Original was just too coarse and brash.
Many thanks for you views on this. I am very much looking forward to living with this now.

[Ali Tait]

Shaun,have you tried the fixed output against the variable? I know it means you can gain match,but it's not a good idea to have an extra pot in the signal path IMO.

[Haselsh1]

Shaun,have you tried the fixed output against the variable? I know it means you can gain match,but it's not a good idea to have an extra pot in the signal path IMO.

Ali, I have tried things with and without the pot and to be honest, I can't tell the difference but I fully understand what you are suggesting. With the sheer difficulty of setting volume levels and balance with the Croft, I have set a volume using vinyl as the source and then matched the CD volume to that. At the moment I am getting just what I want but there will be plenty of time for experimentation later. For now, I intend to use an RCA copper connector for the digital connection. Let's see if that makes a difference.

[MartinT]

Shaun, you should find the copper cable a small improvement over optical, although to be honest the Caiman's optical input is pretty damn good (I use optical from my Sky HD box). Keep running the Caiman and you should find it continues to improve up to and beyond 200 hours or so.

I know exactly what you mean about the transparency and clarity in the midrange. It's a bit of a giant killer as far as DACs go. I'm sure you have many happy hours of listening ahead of you.

[Themis]

The Caiman's pot starts slightly making a difference under 50% (under 12 o'clock), can't notice it above 14 o'clock, anyway.

The coax input gives slightly fuller bass than the optical, imho. And I use a glass fiber, I won't comment on plastic fiber, as I don't have any under 5m.

[dave2010]

Shaun

I'm still pleased with mine. I currently have several optical interconnects and a coaxial link. I've ordered another coaxial cable as this has two coax inputs. I switch the optical interconnects using a simple switch - though I have a slight problem remembering which is which.

Re the USB interface, that is quite good too, and I've been amazed at the quality possible via Spotify. Even some tracks on Napster sound good - for example the guitar tracks for Walton's 5 Bagatelles played by Julian Bream. I really like being able to hear the squeaks as Bream moves his fingers around. For some music at reasonable volumes it just sounds as though the musicians have come into the room.

I can't really be sure, but possibly the sound is better from online sources with a feed from the Squeezebox, but having said that some of the sound via the USB from a small computer running Spotify is very good. When it's not - e.g Claudio Arrau playing Beethoven's Waldstein sonata, careful listening usually suggests the problems are in the recording - though that one's pretty bad. A pity as the performance is decent.

How about this for silliness. Rather than turn my tuner on, I'm listening to the online stream of Radio 3 (partly because I'd need to reconfigure things right now to get the tuner input working again) - very clean sound via my Logitech SB3 and Caiman. Maybe that doesn't work for any stations you might want to listen to. As you said, very quiet "silence".

I don't know why this appears to get better as time goes on. Possibly I'm imagining this, or maybe it's just that one's ears adjust to the sound. I agree it does seem to though.

[MartinT]

And I use a glass fiber, I won't comment on plastic fiber, as I don't have any under 5m.

My Kimber optical cable uses 'medical grade fibre', whatever that is. In any case, it's 0.5m long and sounds pretty good to my ears and better than another cheap optical I have lying around.

[Haselsh1]

Now I could well be imagining this but I could swear as this unit has gained a few hours on the clock, the stereo imaging has improved. The spread is now wider than the speakers on occasion whereas straight out of the box it was firmly between the speakers. I would also reinforce what was said about the coax connection, the bass is fuller but I have had fewer errors. This whole experience is pretty good, all I want to do now is play music with a very dark, silent background.

[leo]

Your not imagining it, some conponents in the circuitry like capacitors don't perform at their best until they've gone through the forming process, this also affects the sound, it should carry on to improve for a little while longer

[StanleyB]

The burn in period of my DACs is legendary in its own right, and one of the few cases where the burn in process can be demonstrated in action:).

[daveyboy]

I don't think a burning in process exists. I think it's you appreciating it more as you become acclimatised to the sound.

[StanleyB]

The burn in effect is quite easy to demonstrate, and does not require any special piece of equipment. Just take two brand new pieces of equipment, like two Caimans. Test them both for a very short period to confirm that they are sounding the same. THen put one of them away, whilst continuing to use the other one for say 50 hours. Dig out the other DAC and compare them. The differences will start to show up. Pack away the one DAC again and continue burning in the other for another 50 hours. Compare the two again, etc. After about 200 hours the differences are so obviously clear as night and day.

If the non-believers in burn in would take the time to carry out this simple test on any two pieces of audio, or even video, equipment, they'll soon have egg all over their faces:lol:.

[dave2010]

Stanley

Very interesting. Of course most of us aren't in the privileged position of having several new versions of lots of kit to test out, and even affording just one might be a challenge in some cases. :-)

Once burnt in, there are possibly other changes which may eventually lead to failure. I hope these take a lot longer than 200 hours, and are fixable in the case of the Caiman.

bws

[leo]

I don't think a burning in process exists. I think it's you appreciating it more as you become acclimatised to the sound.

Thats almost like saying new shoes are not more comfy after bedding in:lolsign:

You should read up about capacitors though, once you understand how they work it makes a lot of sense;)

[The Grand Wazoo]

Once burnt in, there are possibly other changes which may eventually lead to failure. I hope these take a lot longer than 200 hours, and are fixable in the case of the Caiman.


I think that's a little disingenuous Dave

[MartinT]

I don't think a burning in process exists. I think it's you appreciating it more as you become acclimatised to the sound.

You only have to trust your ears to know that that isn't true. All of my components have taken some time to burn-in, some more than others. The most extreme example was my old Sony SCD-1 SACD player, which took an age to settle and became much worse after new before it surpassed that sound quality to become very much better. It was all (painfully) audible and verified by several other SCD-1 owners.

The process in speakers and electronic components is well documented, that in cables very much less so. It's all audible, though.

[Themis]

Davey is right, imho, in one thing: if you don't pay extreme attention, burn-in is not very noticeable for most solid-state electronics. There may be patent exceptions (like the SCD-1) which can be exacerbated (to the better or the worse) by the rest of the setup, but, as a whole, differences remain small.
This is how I understand it.

[dave2010]

Leo

Re capacitors, what type of capacitors are used in the sort of equipment we are talking about? Presumably electrolytics are used for power applications, but smaller capacitors may use other technologies. Which are the ones which make a difference in your opinion? Electrolytics do change with the polarising voltages, and apparently modern ones don't change too much and are at least usable after the initial period of use if the circuits lie dormant for quite a while, though whether they need to go through another burn in period after a while of being unused I don't know. I think however that these aren't the type which are being considered here. This page - http://tinyurl.com/a327e4 - has some very interesting details, with some being more accurate and temperature stable than others.

Regarding one of my amps, which I thought was going off, one guy in a hi-fi shop suggested that some of the electrolytic capacitors were going out of spec or failing, but with my recently revised knowledge, that seems unlikely to me as a cause of the problems I thought it had - which were mainly a slightly rougher sound suggesting some imbalance somewhere in the circuitry.

[leo]

Dave,

The capacitors are electrolytic which are used as signal coupling caps in this dac before and after the op-amp section, also the electrolytics used in the NFB and psu decoupling all have an effect.



Leo

[Haselsh1]

I'd like to add that tonally, this dac is still the most analogue I have ever heard digital sound. The midrange, vocal/guitar/sax, is the most gorgeously analogue I have ever heard in twenty seven years of listening to digital sources with the treble being not very far behind but it's difficult to match vinyl with the correct cartridge loading for treble. I fear that Marco is going to be pissed off with this as he may think he is losing a vinyl junkie but this is not the case. I still think there is a very valid place for vinyl alongside CD for serious music appreciation but as with all things in life, one deserves a lot more attention than the other and indeed demands a lot more attention.
The one thing that annoys the hell out of me about vinyl is having to get out of my lovely cozy seat and turn the damn thing over after just three tracks. This is a true negative and this is where for me, CD wins hands down. I'll keep you informed as this unit runs itself in.

[Themis]

Shaun, do you use the upgraded or the normal PSU with the Caiman ?

[MartinT]

If Shaun received the Caiman recently, I would expect it to be the 15V PSU.

[Alex_UK]

And I promise you Shaun it will only get better! I was very sceptical about "burn in" on any products making a big difference, but in my opinion it does with the Caiman (200 hours is quoted, and I wouldn't disagree - I left mine with sound through it but the amp turned down 24/7 for 2 weeks to speed up the process). I would totally agree with you too about the analogue comparison.