Electrostatic/Planar Speakers

[Ninanina]

I have an urge to try out some Electrostatic/Planar speakers

I had a lovely pair of ESL 57's many years ago and absolutely loved them but when I moved I could not site them properly so had to sell them. They were probably the best speakers I've ever heard along with Klipsch La Scalas

Unfortunately I still cannot fit in 57's, as they are just too wide, but am considering 63's as they will fit or maybe Magneplanar, Martin Logan etc

I am not able to have the speakers too far out in the room but can accommodate 2' from the rear wall no problem

I have an option to buy some Magneplanars for next to nothing so might give those a try

Just wondered what other people thought about these type of speakers and any other recommendations, thanks so much :)

[Firebottle]

Do it Bev, Maggie for next to nothing, go on! :)

[Ninanina]

Thanks Alan yes I thought to try the Maggie as there is so little risk, have you heard them ? ;)

[struth]

if your getting cheap then you have little to lose and lots to gain:D ..ine is sounding so good i frightened to touch it

[Firebottle]

Yes I've had a pair, superb performance. The only reason I sold them on was the size.
:)

[Ninanina]

Thanks for replies

Do you have a pair Grant ?

The ones I have in mind are pretty old and are not the biggest ones, I think they are about 5' tall and about 20" wide. Which one did you have Alan?

I read that Maggies like a lot of power, I have about 80w but I don't listen at high volumes and I have no problem with size as it's only me to please :D

[Macca]

If you go for Quads don't get 63s, get one of the newer models, you can sometimes get them for well under a grand. Better build and sound good too.

[struth]

No im using my own built speakers and a set of actives in parallel. Sounds odd but works. Latest oppo cd has brought best out of it. Several yards ahead of the oppo-sition. Ner. It was a pressie from Gary. A very kind one and I'm currently having his babies [emoji23]

[Sherwood]

Maggies are great. I am on my second pair, the 1.7s. Two feet from the rear wall is pushing it, but as they are only a couple of inches thick that is about the space that most speakers take up anyway. A bit of wall treatment can help, but they radiate equal amounts of energy backwards as they do forwards.

The only caution is that they are monstrously difficult to drive. Yes, they will sound good with decent amps, but they just soak up power like a sponge. Very few amps can really get the best out them but with a good match they are awesome. Speed, superb imaging, detail and, yes, real bass slam.

Geoff

[Ninanina]

If you go for Quads don't get 63s, get one of the newer models, you can sometimes get them for well under a grand. Better build and sound good too.

Thanks for the comments Martin, are the 63's really bad then ? I did read some negative's about 63's but again I guess if they are cheap enough then maybe worth a go just to get a feel of the sound and to see if they would work in my room before moving on to something better in the electrostatic/planar field

[Sherwood]

Thanks for replies

Do you have a pair Grant ?

The ones I have in mind are pretty old and are not the biggest ones, I think they are about 5' tall and about 20" wide. Which one did you have Alan?

I read that Maggies like a lot of power, I have about 80w but I don't listen at high volumes and I have no problem with size as it's only me to please :D

It's not really about volume, it's about control. When powered with a really high current amp, everything snaps into place: transients are razor sharp, bass textures are clearly defined, and drums sound tight and weighty. With a lesser amp you will get a sweet sound with impressive midrange, but they can deliver so much more. Which amp do you have?

Geoff

[Ninanina]

Maggies are great. I am on my second pair, the 1.7s. Two feet from the rear wall is pushing it, but as they are only a couple of inches thick that is about the space that most speakers take up anyway. A bit of wall treatment can help, but they radiate equal amounts of energy backwards as they do forwards.

The only caution is that they are monstrously difficult to drive. Yes, they will sound good with decent amps, but they just soak up power like a sponge. Very few amps can really get the best out them but with a good match they are awesome. Speed, superb imaging, detail and, yes, real bass slam.

Geoff

Thanks Geoff
I could possibly bring them out further into the room when being used and I did think about some rear wall treatment as well. Do you think 80w of Naim would drive them? baring in mind I don't listen at high volumes at all as I love my neighbours and actually I just don't like loud music at home ;)

[Ninanina]

Which amp do you have?


I have the Naim Supernait 2 or XS2 80w and 70w respectively

I actually don't know what a "high current amp" is and whether the Naim's are such ;)

[Sherwood]

I have the Naim Supernait 2 or XS2 80w and 70w respectively

I actually don't know what a "high current amp" is and whether the Naim's are such ;)

I doubt that the Naim amps would be a good match, but sometimes an unexpected pairing does work. Is there any possibility that you could demo the speakers with your Naim amps?

Geoff

[Ninanina]

I doubt that the Naim amps would be a good match, but sometimes an unexpected pairing does work. Is there any possibility that you could demo the speakers with your Naim amps?

Geoff

To be honest I never go to dealers, or even home dems, and listen to anything these days as it always sounds completely different at home anyway. The cheap Maggies I have an option on does not present much of a risk to 'buy and try' to be honest

Can anyone explain, in simple terms :), what a "high current amp" is ?

[Sherwood]

A high-current amplifier is one that can deliver enough current to drive low-impedance loads. All Maggies are low impedance designs and just seem suck up current like a sponge.

Although some of the newer digital amps and their like can work well with Maggies, typically they require big amps with meaty power supplies that can maintain their power output down to 2ohms.

Geoff

[Ninanina]

A high-current amplifier is one that can deliver enough current to drive low-impedance loads. All Maggies are low impedance designs and just seem suck up current like a sponge.

Although some of the newer digital amps and their like can work well with Maggies, typically they require big amps with meaty power supplies that can maintain their power output down to 2ohms.

Geoff

Thanks Geoff for explaining that one

How does one know if you have a "high current" amp? I have the specs of the Supernait 2 and apparently it has a rather 'oversized' transformer if that makes any difference

Has anyone heard both electrostats and Magneplaners and care to describe the difference in sound?

[Sherwood]

Very difficult to generalise. Both designs sound very different to box type speakers because they do not have the colouration that comes with box designs. Both types share good imaging, a sense of speed (i.e. fast transient response); natural tone and a soiid mid range. Their limitations are typically in terms of low bass output, although the quality of bass is good with accurate portrayal of texture. I would say that ribbon designs have the advantage in terms of a wider hotspot for imaging and perhaps a weightier sense of midrange presence. Electrostatics may have the edge on deeper imaging but this can often only be appreciated in a narrow listening zone. Of course, each type has many different manifestations. Suffice to say I could live with Quads, Maggies, Martin Logans and a range of other designs. There is something about live acoustic music on all these speaker types that is hard to achieve with box designs.

Geoff

[Primalsea]

I used to have Martin Logan Aeon I and they sounded absolutely amazing... when they were in the middle of the room, a good 6 ft away from any walls. They didn’t really image well any closer to the walls, though they did retain that transparency that you only get with panels. I don’t know about Maggies but you have to be careful with used MLs as the conductive polymers on the panels break down after several years and you have to replace the panels in pairs and it is not cheap.

[Ninanina]

Absolutely Geoff. I never found the 57's lacking in low bass to be honest as I am not a bass freak ;) My current LV's don't have a lot of low bass either but I don't miss it...

I remember the 57's sounding so very good when I had them, actually they were so good that I never wanted to part with them but I just could not fit them into the new room... mind you I made a fortune on them when I sold them, I think they were shipped to someone in Germany

The 57's were 'special' and the only other speaker I've heard that impressed as much was the Klipsch La Scala

While I love my LV's I have an 'itch' to try another planar type speaker. It might be that a planar speaker won't work in my room but I'm excited to try it out :D

[Ninanina]

The Maggies are as tall as me... :eek:

[Scooby]

Supernait definitley drives Maggies. A dealer not too far away from me had a pair wired up to one and playing for a while. No issues with driving them, although I did think the sound was a bit meh.

[Ninanina]

Supernait definitley drives Maggies. A dealer not too far away from me had a pair wired up to one and playing for a while. No issues with driving them, although I did think the sound was a bit meh.

That's great Andy thanks for letting me know

I won't know until I get a pair of Maggies here to try out... I've gone for the 'bargain' pair just to give them a go and if I like them I will get a better set later on :)

[Sherwood]

Supernait definitley drives Maggies. A dealer not too far away from me had a pair wired up to one and playing for a while. No issues with driving them, although I did think the sound was a bit meh.

This is the point I was making. You can get a decent volume and an OK sound out of Maggies with many amps However, they are completely transformed with the right amplification!

Geoff

[Ninanina]

This is the point I was making. You can get a decent volume and an OK sound out of Maggies with many amps However, they are completely transformed with the right amplification!

Geoff

Thanks Geoff, however can you explain what the "right amplification" might be for Maggies ?

[walpurgis]

I'd have thought a Quad 909 might fit the bill rather well.

[Ninanina]

I'd have thought a Quad 909 mught fit the bill rather well.

You might be right there Geoff but I don't have it... just the Naim XS2 or Supernait 2 :doh:

However if I like the Maggies in my room I am not 'fixed' to Naim at all... as much as I love the sound of my Naim at the moment...

[Scooby]

That's great Andy thanks for letting me know

I won't know until I get a pair of Maggies here to try out... I've gone for the 'bargain' pair just to give them a go and if I like them I will get a better set later on :)

I'd do exactly the same. You never know until you get something in your own room and experiment a bit. Even something like a speaker cable change can turn something ordinary into a keeper. I really do like the look of many Magneplanars too. Mind you, the LVs are gorgeous too.

[Ninanina]

I'd do exactly the same. You never know until you get something in your own room and experiment a bit. Even something like a speaker cable change can turn something ordinary into a keeper. I really do like the look of many Magneplanars too. Mind you, the LVs are gorgeous too.

Yes I love my LV's Andy but you know what it's like when you have an 'itch' to try something new... :doh:

Having something my height in the room might be 'interesting' :eek:

[Sherwood]

There is a lot of discussion on US and Maggie forums. Emotiva amps are considered a good budget pairing. I tried lots of powerful UK power amps on home trial. Exposure, Parasound, Audiolab, Roksan. None really were ideal. In the end I imported an Odyssey amp from the US. It was a custom design, a hybrid of their Khartago and Stratos models with upgraded components and power supply. The synergy is incredible!

Geoff

[hifinutt]

highly recommend martin logan , there are electromotions around and theos etc

[Ninanina]

highly recommend martin logan , there are electromotions around and theos etc

Thanks Phil I will take a look at those as well..

[Pharos]

OK if you can tolerate the visual imposition.

[Ninanina]

OK if you can tolerate the visual imposition.

Dennis the size is not a problem to me as I only have myself to please... absolutely no WAF here :eek:

[Ninanina]

I've posted the same question on the Naim forum and someone says that the SN2 driving a pair of 63's was absolutely no problem so I am hoping that it will be enough for the Maggies as well.. we will see

My 'bargain' Maggies will be with me in about a week or so once I've collected them, I will report back as soon as I have a 'handle' on them :)

[walpurgis]

the size is not a problem to me as I only have myself to please...

Not sure how to reply to that! :)

[Ninanina]

Not sure how to reply to that! :)

:rfl:

[Macca]

Thanks for the comments Martin, are the 63's really bad then ? I did read some negative's about 63's but again I guess if they are cheap enough then maybe worth a go just to get a feel of the sound and to see if they would work in my room before moving on to something better in the electrostatic/planar field

No but the newer models are better built, better all round. 63s are old now and will need a lot of work unless you buy some that have had it all done already. Same with 57.

But I see you have gone for Maggies so academic now. :)

[Sherwood]

I've posted the same question on the Naim forum and someone says that the SN2 driving a pair of 63's was absolutely no problem so I am hoping that it will be enough for the Maggies as well.. we will see

My 'bargain' Maggies will be with me in about a week or so once I've collected them, I will report back as soon as I have a 'handle' on them :)

Hope the Naim works with the Maggies but they are not comparable to electrostatics in terms of amplifier requirements. I have used 300w monoblocks with my 1.7s and they reminded me of AudreyII in the Little Shop of Horrors! They still wanted more juice!

Geoff

[Pharos]

My concern was not so much with WAF, but my own situation to which yours may be similar.

You may remember the picture of my Betas with the front window behind in the centre from the "Show us your speakers" thread.

A few years ago I sold a pair of CLS 2s for a friend, and they sounded good but virtually blocked out the front window, and I could not live with that. They also dipped to 0.5 ohms.

Mind you the Betas are not diminishingly small, but they are not wide, and I've given up seeking a Dom.

[struth]

Current=Voltage/Impedance, thus you need a lot of reserve current to drive and keep control of speakers when the impedance drops toward 2 or 3 ohms. That said if you are not striving for high volumes then the amp you have should be fine

[wee tee cee]

I have both 63s and 57s.

My son managed to kill the 63s whilst i was away on holiday-they will get fixed one day.

They both worked fine with a variety of amps valve/t amps/hybrid and ss.

I reckon you will be fine with your naim amp....hope it works out well.

[jandl100]

Supernait definitley drives Maggies. A dealer not too far away from me had a pair wired up to one and playing for a while. No issues with driving them, although I did think the sound was a bit meh.


This is the point I was making. You can get a decent volume and an OK sound out of Maggies with many amps However, they are completely transformed with the right amplification!

Geoff

Exactly.
Maggies shouldn't sound 'meh' - that just shows the amp isn't up to the task.

When I first got my recent Maggie 1.6QR for my 2nd system (which I then sold on to Alan Firebottle) I used them with a 70wpc Sony integrated - which fairly promptly died on one channel :doh:.
-- I'd be very wary of trying to drive your Maggies hard, Bev - the Naims might not be up to it and the consequences might be severe.

[hifi_dave]

I have used a Supernait with Maggies and the result was uninspiring. Without a powerful amp with 'grip', the Maggies are slow and bland. Give them some proper drive and they come alive.

[Sherwood]

I have used a Supernait with Maggies and the result was uninspiring. Without a powerful amp with 'grip', the Maggies are slow and bland. Give them some proper drive and they come alive.

Exactly!!!!!!

[Pharos]

The CLS 2s that I sold for a friend were inititally driven by his Naim 250, which repeatedly cut out, and a dealer stated that he would not buy them on the basis of that demo.

I substituted my ATC SIA-150 and that drove them well. So, limitations in Naim amps seems established.

[Ninanina]

So are electrostatics any easier to drive than Maggies ?

[Sherwood]

So are electrostatics any easier to drive than Maggies ?

They both require good amplification but different types of amplification. Maggies are great speakers and fantastic value for money but notoriously difficult to drive.

Geoff

[Bksabath]

I have been waiting a couple of weeks to get a pair of 1.7 to try whit my F5
I hope they will be ok ...
They may be here next week end

[hifi_dave]

So are electrostatics any easier to drive than Maggies ?

Both are difficult to drive in their own ways. Your Naim will drive the Maggies but you won't get the best from them and I wouldn't use a Naim with ELS.

[Macca]

2 Naim amps to sell, you could buy something good with the money they'll fetch :D

[hifi_dave]

That's a bit harsh..:)

[jandl100]

2 Naim amps to sell, you could buy something good with the money they'll fetch :D

Exactly what I was thinking but I didn't dare say it! :lol:

[Yomanze]

Exactly what I was thinking but I didn't dare say it! :lol:

Speaking of amps that'd be good with Maggies: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?56335-Aragon-4004-dual-mono-power-amplifier

[Scooby]

It's a pity that Aragon 4004 got snapped up at £350. Might've been ideal or the job and ridiculously cheap.

[hornucopia]

Interesting you rate a Panel speaker with a Horn.
I had 57s before I got my (then) Klipschorns, in the 80s.
The 57s are great-the 'window into music' description not at all a hype.
They didn't SEEM to get louder, just clearer-until you went into another room and realised how loud they were!

It's the same with headphones-my Isodynamic phones sound great.


(My Hafler DH200 amp worked fine with 57s)

[Halfway Tree]

Bev, which Maggies are you getting?

Whether they are difficult to drive depends very much on the model.

Many Maggies are almost a purely resistive 4 ohm load - they are not difficult to drive - but all models do prefer current. Can the amp you're intending to use double its power output into a 4 ohm load? If it can or can get close to doing that then you should have no problem.

I've owned Maggies for more than 30 years and still have 2 pairs. They are generally very robust speakers....can throw a huge soundstage...and if you get hooked on them you may find there is no going back to boxes....:D

Gordon

[User211]

Parasound A21 plus a fairly good valve pre. That'll work well for circa £2K 2nd hand.

Really, really well.

Trust me. I tell no lie. Watch this jewel swinging back and forth.

[Mike Reed]

As an ESL owner (Quad 2905 ; sorry, avatar out of date), I'm also interested in Maggies and M.L.s.. The medium sized Maggies I heard last November in the East of England show were liked by all 4 of us who went. Not quite ticking all boxes, but it was a large room. Heard big Maggies a generation ago in a big private domicile, and was impressed then, too.

I have no doubt about the big M.Ls, either (Summits) as I was impressed by relatively dinky M.L.s locally a decade ago. However, the very narrow dispersion angle (30 degrees?) puts me off a bit; that and, as with Maggies, they're American (no bias here, just practicalities).

Someone here mentioned sound-staging re. Maggies, but I wonder what the individual attributes are for each format of planar speaker. After 50 years at the moving coil speaker face, as it were, there's no reverting to boxes for me. 100 W/ch valved mono's are perfect for my ESLs, but maybe not for Maggies or M.Ls, which I suspect need more (s/s) welly.

Interesting thread.

[Sherwood]

As an ESL owner (Quad 2905 ; sorry, avatar out of date), I'm also interested in Maggies and M.L.s.. The medium sized Maggies I heard last November in the East of England show were liked by all 4 of us who went. Not quite ticking all boxes, but it was a large room. Heard big Maggies a generation ago in a big private domicile, and was impressed then, too.

I have no doubt about the big M.Ls, either (Summits) as I was impressed by relatively dinky M.L.s locally a decade ago. However, the very narrow dispersion angle (30 degrees?) puts me off a bit; that and, as with Maggies, they're American (no bias here, just practicalities).

Someone here mentioned sound-staging re. Maggies, but I wonder what the individual attributes are for each format of planar speaker. After 50 years at the moving coil speaker face, as it were, there's no reverting to boxes for me. 100 W/ch valved mono's are perfect for my ESLs, but maybe not for Maggies or M.Ls, which I suspect need more (s/s) welly.

Interesting thread.

I agree that buying Maggies in the UK is a problem. Although there are several UK dealers, the mark up on the US prices is large. There is a new(ish) 0.7 model though which would be feasible to bring back to the UK as cargo hold, and which represents great value even after vat and duties. It has much of the quality of my 1.7s albeit in a smaller form factor.

If anyone is seriously considering going for Maggies I would encourage them to audition them with the proper amplification. Given some notice I would be willing to demo my system to those contemplating a Magneplanar purchase.

Geoff

[Sherwood]

Parasound A21 plus a fairly good valve pre. That'll work well for circa £2K 2nd hand.

Really, really well.

Trust me. I tell no lie. Watch this jewel swinging back and forth.

I had the A23 model on extended (30 day) audition and it had enough power to drive the Maggies. Unfortunately, I found the combination a little hard sounding so did not keep it.

Geoff

[User211]

I had the A23 model on extended (30 day) audition and it had enough power to drive the Maggies. Unfortunately, I found the combination a little hard sounding so did not keep it.

GeoffI agree. Unless you use a good valve pre. In which case it is very good indeed. At least it was on Apogee Duettas.

A passive or active SS pre was a bad idea. I literally couldn't really listen to it.

I think the A21 used with a valve pre is just a killer combination for the money. To be fair I was using an EAR 868PL at the time but then switched to a much cheaper valve pre which I prefer by quite a margin.

I think the A21 is a fair notch above the A23 to be fair. But I'd still expect a reasonably similar sound.

Not long ago someone bought an A21 around after I had been without one for a while and I still thought it was great. For the money.

[montesquieu]

So are electrostatics any easier to drive than Maggies ?

Yes, considerably.

20w of valves will easily drive 57s (they date from the valve era and the original Quad II valve amps are only 15w), 35w will happily drive 63s, though both are happier with a bit more. No need for more than 50-60w for either. Always Push pull - forget low-powered SET.

Alternatively, any of the Quad solid state amps intended for ESLs: 303 or 405 for the 57; 405, 606, 909 for the 63 - the later the better. Avoid the 306, it wasn't intended for electrostatic use and doesn't have the ability to handle the impedance dips.

Agree totally on the need for lots of watts with Maggies but 200-300w of class D is fairly cheap these days and I've have thought that would do the trick? Valve pre and your are done. Though to be fair I've never owned a pair so I'm not talking from experience here. Most Maggies I've heard at shows have not come up to the Quad ESL benchmark but that's probably shows for you.

Panels (all electrostatic) were one of the few things that impressed me at the Munich show this year, there were several sets of giant ones and I could have lived with any of them. Some were up to 100k Euros though - whether they are that much better than a pair of Quad 2905 that can be had now s/h for under four grand, that's another story.

[jandl100]

Agree totally on the need for lots of watts with Maggies but 200-300w of class D is fairly cheap these days and I've have thought that would do the trick?

I'm not so sure about that. I think you need current with Maggies.
I suspect the cheaper high powered class D lack current delivery, it's all about Watts like a cheapish Japanese integrated with a small power supply.
It was certainly my impression that a cheap 300wpc Crown XLS1500 class D amp totally failed to deliver the large scale presentation available at somewhat lesser wattage from a well implemented class A/B solid state design - I'm thinking of comparison with a Parasound A21 here.

[Yomanze]

As a general rule of thumb you want an amp that doubles in power from 8 to 4 Ohms, and again from 4 to 2 Ohms, with a rating of at least 100W at 4 Ohms, but people with big Maggies can run 1000W or more - there are some high current Class D designs out there like from Hypex. There are always exceptions in HiFi, but Maggies are low sensitivity low impedance speakers that demand a lot of current during peaks.

...having said this there are fans of using Maggies with big tube amps. [emoji6]

[User211]

The problem with planars - any planars ESL or magnetostatic, is not so much low impedance (within reason), but excursion limitations - at least when it comes to playing loud.

Their excursion is limited, so getting something like a Quad ESL 57 to play loud means dumping MASSES of power into them. We did EXACTLY that at the MiBo bake off, whereby the clipping lamps on my 600 Watt amp lit up.

Imagine stretching a piece of strong film of any kind. Then press on it. The further you push it in, the harder it is to move it. An amp sees the same problem.

That Crown amp Jerry had did sound a bit vague/wishy washy on my speakers. Amps with less rated power can sound much more dynamic on them.

It is pretty hard to draw up failsafe rules on an amps ability to drive a specific speaker subjectively well.

[Firebottle]

Their excursion is limited, so getting something like a Quad ESL 57 to play loud means dumping MASSES of power into them. We did EXACTLY that at the MiBo bake off, whereby the clipping lamps on my 600 Watt amp lit up.

That was a bit surprising, no make that frightening (as they were my speakers :eek:), but I actually think the protection boards were doing their job, thankfully, as the speakers suffered no ill effects.

Usually they would be strictly limited to about 25W.

[User211]

That was a bit surprising, no make that frightening (as they were my speakers :eek:), but I actually think the protection boards were doing their job, thankfully, as the speakers suffered no ill effects.

Usually they would be strictly limited to about 25W.

Protection boards? Nothing like that in mine. But yeah, it was lights on at the back of your speakers IIRC correctly and on my amps. Full house - result!!!

I bumped into Ken Ishiwata (Mr Marantz) outside the bar at Whittlebury. He used to run Apogees and the first word he uttered was tension when we got onto the topic. He's right. Tuning panels by getting tension right is pretty critical. And obviously the higher the tension the less the volume capability esp WRT bass. But uneven tension will also cause an uneven FR.

[Halfway Tree]

Yes, considerably.

20w of valves will easily drive 57s (they date from the valve era and the original Quad II valve amps are only 15w), 35w will happily drive 63s, though both are happier with a bit more. No need for more than 50-60w for either. Always Push pull - forget low-powered SET.

Alternatively, any of the Quad solid state amps intended for ESLs: 303 or 405 for the 57; 405, 606, 909 for the 63 - the later the better. Avoid the 306, it wasn't intended for electrostatic use and doesn't have the ability to handle the impedance dips.

Agree totally on the need for lots of watts with Maggies but 200-300w of class D is fairly cheap these days and I've have thought that would do the trick? Valve pre and your are done. Though to be fair I've never owned a pair so I'm not talking from experience here. Most Maggies I've heard at shows have not come up to the Quad ESL benchmark but that's probably shows for you.



I understand what you are saying, Tom, but I think it is only part of the story.

You are right - a Maggie will not thrive on 20 watts - but many electrostatics have quite rapid impedance swings (as you mentioned) down to 2 ohms or less (the '57 does) at certain freqencies. That makes for a difficult load for many amplifiers. A Maggie impedance curves tends to be relatively flat (a rise at crossover usually) which makes it quite easy for amps to drive them - providing they can provide plenty of current. So, yes 100 watts @4 ohms, but there are plenty of decent amps that will do that without breaking the bank.

And I agree about Maggies at shows - the demos I've heard the last few years have been very poor. The flagship (at the time) 20.7 was at Cranage a couple of years ago in a large room and yet was only about 2 feet from the wall with some foam mattress stuffed behind them. They sounded very poor.

Gordon

[Sherwood]

I have been using Maggies for over 10 years and I am currently using 1.7s in my main system. Regarding the previous posts let me make a few points:

Maggies are dipoles and need some space to work their magic. They emit energy both front and rear. Ideally they should be at least a metre from a rear wall and that wall should have some treatment to reduce reflections.

Although they are floorstanding designs they benefit from some diy improvements. I constructed some very solid plinths from bonded layers of 18mm mdf. They raise the speakers by about 20cm, but more importantly provide a much more stable base. I have effectively clamped the metal stands of the speaker this base and that has brought about big improvements in image stability and detail resolution.

Yes they need a lot of current but that is not just about driving them louder. It is about control. I cannot explain why, but with the right amp they are transformed.

I tried about half a dozen good quality power amps before I found a good synergy. It was not raw power that prevailed as some of the less satisfactory pairings were more powerful on paper.

Although ESLs and Ribbon designs share some attributes, it is not helpful to lump them together when considering suitable amps.


Geoff

[User211]

Although they are floorstanding designs they benefit from some diy improvements. I constructed some very solid plinths from bonded layers of 18mm mdf. They raise the speakers by about 20cm, but more importantly provide a much more stable base. I have effectively clamped the metal stands of the speaker this base and that has brought about big improvements in image stability and detail resolution.

Excellent. Maggie's biggest flaw. Well done.

[Yomanze]

Excellent. Maggie's biggest flaw. Well done.

Yeah they are rather flimsy in stock form.

[hifi_dave]

When we used to sell Maggies, back in the 80s and early 90s, I used to make up beefier feet/brackets and also fit fuses bypassed with speaker cable. Voids the warranty but improves the sound considerably.

[Ninanina]

Well it would seem that the Maggies I was going to purchase have a fault on them, some sort of distortion, so that pair is probably a no-go now. I have been offered them as spares or repair

I guess I could see if I can get them repaired but don't know if I really want to go that route at the moment

So it might be that I will now look for a pair of Quads instead

[wee tee cee]

Bev,
My 57s are going on sale shortly!

[Bksabath]

Well it would seem that the Maggies I was going to purchase have a fault on them, some sort of distortion, so that pair is probably a no-go now. I have been offered them as spares or repair

I guess I could see if I can get them repaired but don't know if I really want to go that route at the moment

So it might be that I will now look for a pair of Quads instead

There are a couple of sites that show how to repair them ,I have not done it, as they work wires should be ok but may have detached from mylar film, I believe that it takes a bit of spray glue to fix, It all depends on how good your DIY thumbs are,
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/DavePride/

Any chance owner can take cloth grill socks off for you to have a look at the damage ?

How much does he wants ? and which model ?

Big Quad look very tempting to me as well A bit more money than new Maggies 1.7 I need to listen to them ...

[hifi_dave]

The covers are a PITA to remove without damage and even more difficult to get back on and look good. The voice coil might well be detached in several places and if they are the model with separate ribbon HF, the ribbons can sag. All fixable if you have the skill and patience.

[Frazeur1]

Yep, about a bazillion staples on the grills/frame, unless someone has had them off before and didn't bother to put as many back in. Usually if the voice coil wires are "banana peeling", you can hear them snap around against the mylar if you turn the wick up a bit. Especially the bass section. All depends on how bad things are and where the action is happening. As others have said, they can be fixed if you have the time and patience, and provided they come at a really reasonable price to begin with. Getting new socks on isn't too bad at all really, it is probably the easiest part.

If you don't get these Bev, keep looking around, surely there will be something that will catch your ear!

[Sherwood]

The covers are a PITA to remove without damage and even more difficult to get back on and look good. The voice coil might well be detached in several places and if they are the model with separate ribbon HF, the ribbons can sag. All fixable if you have the skill and patience.

Like trying to get a tank top off a hedgehog!

[hifi_dave]

:lolsign:

[Frazeur1]

Funny. I always thought once the staples were out, it was like rolling down a nice pair of stockings, only on a rather large leg, and no silky stockings either!

[Macca]

, it was like rolling down a nice pair of stockings, only on a rather large leg, and no silky stockings either!

Plenty of people here with a lot of experience of that so should be no problem getting expert help...

[Sherwood]

Funny. I always thought once the staples were out, it was like rolling down a nice pair of stockings, only on a rather large leg, and no silky stockings either!

Perhaps, but a very hairy leg and a very fine stocking!

Geoff

[Frazeur1]

Plenty of people here with a lot of experience of that so should be no problem getting expert help...

Yes Martin, I have kind of noticed that about many here! :eyebrows:

[Bksabath]

Got the Maggies 1.7 on loan and I am quite pleased whit them first listening this morning
Most of all the F5 are coping quite well
At first I tough a bit thin but I have the Paradise whit stock values on the RIAA and that can be changed
I have also tried to fit a 0R47 instead of the bridging and that make a big improvement
Mind you I am used to the Polk LSi15 so It will take a while to get used to the Magies

[Liffy99]

I have an urge to try out some Electrostatic/Planar speakers

I had a lovely pair of ESL 57's many years ago and absolutely loved them but when I moved I could not site them properly so had to sell them. They were probably the best speakers I've ever heard along with Klipsch La Scalas

Unfortunately I still cannot fit in 57's, as they are just too wide, but am considering 63's as they will fit or maybe Magneplanar, Martin Logan etc

I am not able to have the speakers too far out in the room but can accommodate 2' from the rear wall no problem

I have an option to buy some Magneplanars for next to nothing so might give those a try

Just wondered what other people thought about these type of speakers and any other recommendations, thanks so much :)

Quite a few narrow stats out there - though most would need pairing with a sub or similar to augment the bass end. Silberstatic, Audiostatic (still the most transparent stat i have owned), Final, smaller Martin Logan and Sandersound hybrids. Some of these new, others used. All between 11” and 15” wide.
See my gallery entry for a look at my Finals. If you are near Somerset you are welcome to come and listen. By the way, a pair of Quad 57s were my first ever stats.

[Liffy99]

By the way, i have also owned Maggies (2.5R) which clearly needed more juice tham my then NVA A70 monoblocks could bring to bear. As far as I understand it, magnetic planars need big current whereas electrostatics need big voltage swings to sound their best.
The monster amp that seems to satisfy all requirements is the Sanders Sound Magtech - an over-engineered beast probably capable of driving a tractor. Never heard one though.
I used to have a pair of Parasound JC1s driving ML Prodigies which was an ok combo, but i replaced the amps (then driven by a Plinius pre) with my current Lyngdorf digital beauties. They have never grumbled about loads (but i would still like to hear if i am missing something in comparison with the Magtech).

FWIW my planar speaker history:

Quad 57, Maggie 2.5R, Cadence Anina hybrid (don’t remind me), Audiostatic Wings (thanks Jerry and I agree, never could get a sub to gel although might have fared better with the Lyngdorf active crossover), ML Prodigies, Final 400i with Lyngdorf corner woofers. Saving in desparation for a pair of Sandersound 10s.

And still in awe of Justin’s highly modded Apogee Duettas . . .

[Sherwood]

By the way, i have also owned Maggies (2.5R) which clearly needed more juice tham my then NVA A70 monoblocks could bring to bear. As far as I understand it, magnetic planars need big current whereas electrostatics need big voltage swings to sound their best.
The monster amp that seems to satisfy all requirements is the Sanders Sound Magtech - an over-engineered beast probably capable of driving a tractor. Never heard one though.
I used to have a pair of Parasound JC1s driving ML Prodigies which was an ok combo, but i replaced the amps (then driven by a Plinius pre) with my current Lyngdorf digital beauties. They have never grumbled about loads (but i would still like to hear if i am missing something in comparison with the Magtech).

FWIW my planar speaker history:

Quad 57, Maggie 2.5R, Cadence Anina hybrid (don’t remind me), Audiostatic Wings (thanks Jerry and I agree, never could get a sub to gel although might have fared better with the Lyngdorf active crossover), ML Prodigies, Final 400i with Lyngdorf corner woofers. Saving in desparation for a pair of Sandersound 10s.

And still in awe of Justin’s highly modded Apogee Duettas . . .

Very true, although there are amps capable of driving Maggies properly at much less than the price of the Magtech (as good as that is!).

Geoff

[jandl100]

The monster amp that seems to satisfy all requirements is the Sanders Sound Magtech - an over-engineered beast probably capable of driving a tractor. Never heard one though.

I've heard a Sanders Magtech - I was sent one to review back in my Hifi Pig days.
After a couple of days I just returned it and refused to do a review, the positives and negatives that I heard were so heavily biased into the negative that I felt sure that a more suitable reviewer could be found.
To me it was just bland and BORING!! :zzz:
Lots of folks seem to love it, though, so I think I made the right decision. I can think of some folks on this forum who would really enjoy it. :eyebrows:

[Yomanze]

I've heard a Sanders Magtech - I was sent one to review back in my Hifi Pig days.
After a couple of days I just returned it and refused to do a review, the positives and negatives that I heard were so heavily biased into the negative that I felt sure that a more suitable reviewer could be found.
To me it was just bland and BORING!! :zzz:
Lots of folks seem to love it, though, so I think I made the right decision. I can think of some folks on this forum who would really enjoy it. :eyebrows:

That’s what happens when you get too many power transistors in parallel, it gets boring and more withdrawn from the heart and soul, the immediacy, of the music.

[Ninanina]

I'm picking up some Maggies tomorrow :yay:

They are cheap enough not to worry about trying them out and to see if the amp will drive them or not and to sell on without loosing too much either

[Sherwood]

I'm picking up some Maggies tomorrow :yay:

They are cheap enough not to worry about trying them out and to see if the amp will drive them or not and to sell on without loosing too much either

Good luck. Which model?

Geoff

[Ninanina]

Thanks Geoff a pair of MG1c's

Almost as tall as me, just wider :eek:

[chris@panteg]

Have you still got your Audionote amp Bev?

Not been keeping up I'm afraid, you using Naim now I see.

[Ninanina]

Have you still got your Audionote amp Bev?

Not been keeping up I'm afraid, you using Naim now I see.

Chris I sold the Oto SE and the Meishu and the AN Dac a little while ago so I am valveless :eek:

The current system is Naim amp x 2 (don't ask!), Naim CD player, used as transport, and a Naim Dac with Naim speaker cable and Naim 5 pin from Dac to amp

[Ninanina]

I now have the Maggies home after a trip to London to pick them up

They looked pretty small in the back of the car and I'm sure they have grown since bringing them into the house :doh:

[struth]

Chris I sold the Oto SE and the Meishu and the AN Dac a little while ago so I am valveless :eek:

The current system is Naim amp x 2 (don't ask!), Naim CD player, used as transport, and a Naim Dac with Naim speaker cable and Naim 5 pin from Dac to amp

So naim then[emoji23]

[Ninanina]

So naim then[emoji23]

Indeed.... :D

[struth]

Some folk can't help but be naim droppers

[chris@panteg]

Lol :doh:

[Sherwood]

22912

Some of us prefer to be Naimless!

[Ninanina]

22912

Some of us prefer to be Naimless!

As you say Geoff they are very power hungry.. I like how they sound though... very early days..:D

[Sherwood]

As you say Geoff they are very power hungry.. I like how they sound though... very early days..:D

Glad to hear that you have found a good working pair. Hope that your Naims have the muscle to do them justice. Is there any AoS member near you that would loan you a muscle amp to hear their full potential. I hear that the Quad 909 makes a fair stab with 1.7s.

Geoff

[Ninanina]

Glad to hear that you have found a good working pair. Hope that your Naims have the muscle to do them justice. Is there any AoS member near you that would loan you a muscle amp to hear their full potential. I hear that the Quad 909 makes a fair stab with 1.7s.

Geoff

I don't know but to be honest the more the amp is warming up, it takes a while to settle after being switched off, the better the Maggies are sounding and the placement at the moment is rubbish so there is more to come I think :D

[Ninanina]

Certainly my riskiest hifi purchase ever, I didn't even hear them, it wasn't 'that kind of deal' if you know what I mean and the seller didn't have anything to hook them up to anyway

I was just amazed when I wired them up and sound came out to be honest :eek:

[Sherwood]

I don't know your room dimensions, but before you find a final position for them, try bringing them right out into the room. I would say around 3/8th the length of the room. You don't need them too far from the side walls, as being dipoles they do not radiate much energy laterally, though they do benefit from a few degrees of toe-in.

I think you will be amazed at the scale of the image they can create and how such large panels can disappear sonically.

Geoff

[Ninanina]

Colin has offered to build me a set of stands that will place the Maggies at 90 degrees which I think will be better than the 'lean' of standard stands, bless him ;)

At the moment I have no stands at all and I've just plonked them on the stone bases I used with the LV's and leaned them onto the back wall, with suitable rear padding... as I said the placement is completely rubbish at the moment so I know they have a lot more to give

The Maggies sound, even with the current rubbish placement, is just lovely. They have absolutely no listener fatigue and sound rich and musical to me

[Bksabath]

I don't know your room dimensions, but before you find a final position for them, try bringing them right out into the room. I would say around 3/8th the length of the room. You don't need them too far from the side walls, as being dipoles they do not radiate much energy laterally, though they do benefit from a few degrees of toe-in.

I think you will be amazed at the scale of the image they can create and how such large panels can disappear sonically.

Geoff
Quite agree !!!!
my room is 16Ft X 15 FT being GF less they are on the widest wall much further apart than when I was using the Polk
I still have the loan pair and the new ones should arrive by the end of the week.
Bearing in mind that I have the Paradise whit stock value RIAA (bit lively hi cut) I found that a 0.47 R replacing the bridges improves things a bit
I have also had a chance to try the Supremus Cable and for the first time I can say the difference that made was quite evident straight away
I have a 1 meter set of this on order It is a 6 CSA cable and I wonder if the same CSA cable made up whit multiple runs of trirated 0.75 would do the same trick
Well I have the reference so I will experiment same time in the future.


I am new to Maggies and I do realise that they are different from ported floor standers, punch in the tummy and air pressure volumes are not there, but IMO staging and details make the compromise scale tip in the Magies favour.
So what should I expect from the brand new pair out of the Box ? I been told that they take a while to run in

[Ninanina]

I'm new to Maggies as well

What loan pair do you have Sandro ?

What amp are you using?

[Sherwood]

Quite agree !!!!
my room is 16Ft X 15 FT being GF less they are on the widest wall much further apart than when I was using the Polk
I still have the loan pair and the new ones should arrive by the end of the week.
Bearing in mind that I have the Paradise whit stock value RIAA (bit lively hi cut) I found that a 0.47 R replacing the bridges improves things a bit
I have also had a chance to try the Supremus Cable and for the first time I can say the difference that made was quite evident straight away
I have a 1 meter set of this on order It is a 6 CSA cable and I wonder if the same CSA cable made up whit multiple runs of trirated 0.75 would do the same trick
Well I have the reference so I will experiment same time in the future.


I am new to Maggies and I do realise that they are different from ported floor standers, punch in the tummy and air pressure volumes are not there, but IMO staging and details make the compromise scale tip in the Magies favour.
So what should I expect from the brand new pair out of the Box ? I been told that they take a while to run in

I am on my second pair of Maggies and I did not find they took time to run in. My current pair are 1.7s and I have not found them deficient in terms of "shifting air" but as I have said (ad nauseam) they take a lot of driving to come alive. It took some time to get the amplification right. Never bothered with resistors as I find the balance fine for me. The biggest weakness for me with Maggies is getting them stable and firmly mounted. I built my own stands which raise them about 25cm off the ground and provide a much more stable base.

Geoff

[Bksabath]

I got the 1.7 I from Doug Brady (PS they have an ex demo pair of 3.7i that they like to sell but they where to expensive for me)

I am using my own built F5 to be honest I was quite surprised on how good this combo sound
The amplifiers where built and worked quite well whit the Polk LSi15 (4 homes)
The Magies do not go as loud as the Polk would but we are talking ridiculous neighbour pleasing levels and I almost never listen that hi any way

[Sherwood]

I got the 1.7 I from Doug Brady (PS they have an ex demo pair of 3.7i that they like to sell but they where to expensive for me)

I am using my own built F5 to be honest I was quite surprised on how good this combo sound
The amplifiers where built and worked quite well whit the Polk LSi15 (4 homes)
The Magies do not go as loud as the Polk would but we are talking ridiculous neighbour pleasing levels and I almost never listen that hi any way

For me, the amplification is not about greater volume but more to do with greater control. I found that with the right amplification the solidity of the sound improved markedly as did the attack and speed of the sound.

Geoff

[Bksabath]

Tanks Geoff
I was looking at stands and such I been told that they do improve things

[Sherwood]

Colin has offered to build me a set of stands that will place the Maggies at 90 degrees which I think will be better than the 'lean' of standard stands, bless him ;)

At the moment I have no stands at all and I've just plonked them on the stone bases I used with the LV's and leaned them onto the back wall, with suitable rear padding... as I said the placement is completely rubbish at the moment so I know they have a lot more to give

The Maggies sound, even with the current rubbish placement, is just lovely. They have absolutely no listener fatigue and sound rich and musical to me

What happened to the original brackets they came with? :scratch:

[Ninanina]

I got the 1.7 I from Doug Brady (PS they have an ex demo pair of 3.7i that they like to sell but they where to expensive for me)

I am using my own built F5 to be honest I was quite surprised on how good this combo sound
The amplifiers where built and worked quite well whit the Polk LSi15 (4 homes)
The Magies do not go as loud as the Polk would but we are talking ridiculous neighbour pleasing levels and I almost never listen that hi any way

I that the First Watt F5 amp Sandro? I'm not sure of the output of that amp but I am guessing it's not huge.. are you finding it drives the 1.7 ok?

I am also with you on the "ridiculous neighbour pleasing levels" and to be honest I don't like my music too loud anyway... ;)

[Ninanina]

What happened to the original brackets they came with? :scratch:

I have absolutely no idea Geoff... the chap I purchased them from was going to mount them directly onto the wall, bad idea, so I guess he wasn't bothered that they had no brackets ;)

[Sherwood]

Tanks Geoff
I was looking at stands and such I been told that they do improve things

I will post some pictures of my home made stands tomorrow. Made up of 18mm mdf cut to size at B&Q (free service). Effectively 50cm by 50cm plinths 25cm high.

Geoff

[Ninanina]

I will post some pictures of my home made stands tomorrow. Made up of 18mm mdf cut to size at B&Q (free service). Effectively 50cm by 50cm plinths 25cm high.

Geoff

Super Geoff, thanks... it will give Colin something to go on :D

[Bksabath]

2291922920
Well yes it is the Pass Labs F5 but whit twin transistors and biased at 2.6 A hardly the vanilla version
On the first picture is just the power supply whit the firs bank of caps
I don't have pictures of the 2 mono blocks on me ( at work at present) they are the black slabs of granite behind the records
I made them ready to take an extra output stage and go balanced eventualy so to have 2 times as much current at half the voltage but it is hardly necessary at present whit 1000 VA trafo and 200K uF

[Bksabath]

I was thinking of 50 mm thick slabs of marble to keep my F5 look and a sturdy brace hi up 3/4 way on the sides
The fitted feet are a bit wobbly IMO

[Sherwood]

I was thinking of 50 mm thick slabs of marble to keep my F5 look and a sturdy brace hi up 3/4 way on the sides
The fitted feet are a bit wobbly IMO

Yes, the fitted feet are not ideal. However, on the plinths I have made, a simple cross bar behind the speakers and bolted to the plinth applies pressure to the t-bar and forms a secure bond. The plinth design also means that you can mount each monoblock directly under the speakers (size permitting).

[Ninanina]

A pic of your home made plinths would be super when you have the time Geoff...

I can imagine that the original brackets with the 'lean' are not all that secure as the speakers are soo huge..

[Sherwood]

A pic of your home made plinths would be super when you have the time Geoff...

I can imagine that the original brackets with the 'lean' are not all that secure as the speakers are soo huge..

The originals will be fine if secured to a massy plinth. The problem is that they are not stable if on carpets, and not easy to level on flat floors.

[Ninanina]

The originals will be fine if secured to a massy plinth. The problem is that they are not stable if on carpets, and not easy to level on flat floors.

That was the idea we had Geoff, to secure original 'type' metal brackets to some sort of solid plinth

Do you think having Maggies at 90 degrees is ok or do they really need their 'lean' ?

[Sherwood]

That was the idea we had Geoff, to secure original 'type' metal brackets to some sort of solid plinth

Do you think having Maggies at 90 degrees is ok or do they really need their 'lean' ?

The larger Maggies have t-brackets so are at 90 degrees. I think the plinth arrangement is fine for your speakers either way.

[Ninanina]

The larger Maggies have t-brackets so are at 90 degrees. I think the plinth arrangement is fine for your speakers either way.

Super thanks Geoff for your help... Colin can now get on and build something suitable.. ;)

[Ninanina]

I am so very impressed with my Maggies..

To be honest they are like nothing else I've listened to over the years, speaker wise

They are at pretty low levels at the moment, even though I know my neighbour is away tonight, and they sound so good

I predict they will be one of my better hifi purchases..

[Sherwood]

I am so very impressed with my Maggies..

To be honest they are like nothing else I've listened to over the years, speaker wise

They are at pretty low levels at the moment, even though I know my neighbour is away tonight, and they sound so good

I predict they will be one of my better hifi purchases..

Welcome to the cult! :mad:

[Ninanina]

Welcome to the cult! :mad:

Indeed Geoff :eek:

[Pharos]

I'm intrigued, haven't heard them for a long time, or come to that, the Scintillas.

[Gerry]

I am so very impressed with my Maggies..

To be honest they are like nothing else I've listened to over the years, speaker wise

They are at pretty low levels at the moment, even though I know my neighbour is away tonight, and they sound so good

I predict they will be one of my better hifi purchases..

Welcome to the dark side....difficult to go back to boxes...;)

[Mike Reed]

Welcome to the dark side....difficult to go back to boxes...;)

Here's another convert, but to ESLs. I've had (usually large) boxes since the mid 60s, ending up with 133kg each ProAc R4s (shown in avatar). After having my Quad 2905s in service for 5 or 6 months, I re-installed my ProAcs.. Think they lasted 48 hours ! That after having them, and other big ProAc R speakers, for 15 years.

I'd say I've gone over to the bright side. Strangely, the relative drop in bass output was and is not a problem; otherwise it's all plus points; sound-staging, imaging and transparency, along with a more 'natural' and unforced presentation. (Amp'n: E.A.R. 912/509s)

Oh yes, another bonus; my cat can't sit on top any longer !

[jandl100]

It's about keeping the moving mass of the driver as low as possible and getting rid of colouration inducing cabinets - I've gone the carbon fibre route with my MBLs.

[Sherwood]

A pic of your home made plinths would be super when you have the time Geoff...

I can imagine that the original brackets with the 'lean' are not all that secure as the speakers are soo huge..

As promised. A couple of quick snaps, though perhaps I should have got the feather duster out first. They look better in real life than in the photos.

All made from 18mm mdf. Top is 50cm square, because that is the width of the 1.7s. Bottom is 50cm by 55cm. The bigger the surface area the better as this aids stability even on carpets, but you may wish to make stands for the width of your panels. The uprights are all 20cm high, though as you will see, the middle of the three sheets is shorter than 50cm for aesthetic reasons. The base is stable enough for the speakers to rest on without any other measures. However, a cross bar just behind the speakers pushes down on the t-bars to ensure no movement whatsoever.

Normally, I have a correx front panel to keep out dust but I have removed it to show the construction.

As you do not have the original feet, you would need to get someone to make up a metal L shaped bar with holes drilled to fix the speaker to the plinth. Hope this is useful. There are other ways of mounting Maggies, including tripods, but the plinths took me a couple of hours to assemble and do the job well.

2294322944

Geoff

[TheMooN]

There are some unquestionably fantastic cellular construction transducers from the likes of YG, Magico, as well as Hybrids such as Gryphon Pendragon's etc.etc, all modern design concepts and production Marco :whistle: however for my music predilections the transducer topology of choice tend to revolve around Apogee's , Maggies, Horns and of course ESL's

http://i67.tinypic.com/v3oj78.jpg

[Bksabath]

There are some unquestionably fantastic cellular construction transducers from the likes of YG, Magico, as well as Hybrids such as Gryphon Pendragon's etc.etc, all modern design concepts and production Marco :whistle: however for my music predilections the transducer topology of choice tend to revolve around Apogee's , Maggies, Horns and of course ESL's


Funny U say that "Gryphon" .... for my pocket I could not find any better than the 1.7 for £3k in the UK (pissed off about price difference a bit)
Only snag I can mention is glue used for bonding WTF could they not thermaly bond the conductors between layers of Mylar film that should keep weight down No ?

[Bksabath]

Considering the price one can forgive the flimsy footing + Hey I can fiddle whit it factor

[Mr. C]

Marco,

I would suggest a pair of Apogee Scintilla's would cause you some reconsidering even the stages.
Though quality amplification is required due to the rather silly 79dB sens and 1 ohm load lol

Still have a pair of Scintilla's and Calipers for nostalgia purposes, great but not forgotten.

Maggies can be decent to with the right supporting cast, but Quad's sorry never bought the hype ever, too much missing and over indulgent reviewer's tripping over their fornicating postures towards one of the biggest hypes in audio.

Having had all of the models pass through at one point or another, the only one model that did sound ok was the 989 with the Russian cap mod, that was passable, but butt ugly and average.

What? how dare a young whipper snapper criticise a UK audio legend?, what blasphemy you must surely be deaf?

Afraid not gents, dear fire up the slippers and crank up the mogadon chaps. Its just never going to happen, rather have to listen to a all naim 500 system being played through Royd Doublets and naca 4 cable that have to listen Quad static speakers.

Now the Quad big guns will no doubt posture about those legendary four stack 57's that were tweaked with in an inch of their lives on mystical valve amps and wondrous ethereal renderings springing forth from the heights of mount Olympus.

Total Uber Cock spread by the disciples of the cult of 57 (further reinforced by the later improved cult of 63)

Well have been there and so what?, yes they sound better than the stock units, but for the effort? this isn't the psychedelic 60's of Funking 70's boys this is not the land time forgot. Its real here and now reproduction and Quads make great elevator music (Is there such a thing as great elevator music?) with that lovely disjointed bass timing (sorry Bass? hum slip of the tongue there, approximation of lower frequencies with a smattering of phase incoherence).

Quad speakers like LP12's utter hype (nicely done though to fool all of the owners for that long you have to admire the marketing even before Marketing was key in a product success rather than the product actually being any good)

Are you getting the impression I do not like Quads'? you maybe on to something, having to sit through JJ's Quad demo's was like having to fly a Vespa to the moon on 2 star with a head wind on a frosty morning.

Very rare for me to have a rant these days and I am having a ok day as well. Quad can likened to substance abuse once you have been indoctrinated (Who Salisbury must have been watching in the early years!) you are are locked into the cult of Quad where everything else is considered 'Not Quad' though to be fair St Julian of Verker did take this mantra to another level a decade or so later!

Quad static owners should have to have a permit to allow use in a private dwelling between the hours of 4 and 7.30pm much like caravan owners should be restricted to only road travel between midnight and 6am on full moons.

Sorry chaps, Quad statics are like a hipster craft beer, promise so much deliver so little.

[wee tee cee]

On this forum that is without a doubt the biggest pile of pish ive ever read....

[TheMooN]

There ya go Tony, Sitting on that HiFi fence again :D

[jandl100]

:lolsign:

I know and agree where Mr C is coming from - Quads give part of the picture. If that part is important to you then they get away with it very nicely, but if you want an all round musical transducer then you do have to look elsewhere imho.

(Quad 63 owner for 7 years, 57 owner for a month or two)

[Mr. C]

On this forum that is without a doubt the biggest pile of pish ive ever read....

I see a hipster craft beer appreciator :stalks:

[Sherwood]

Marco,

I would suggest a pair of Apogee Scintilla's would cause you some reconsidering even the stages.
Though quality amplification is required due to the rather silly 79dB sens and 1 ohm load lol

Still have a pair of Scintilla's and Calipers for nostalgia purposes, great but not forgotten.

Maggies can be decent to with the right supporting cast, but Quad's sorry never bought the hype ever, too much missing and over indulgent reviewer's tripping over their fornicating postures towards one of the biggest hypes in audio.

Having had all of the models pass through at one point or another, the only one model that did sound ok was the 989 with the Russian cap mod, that was passable, but butt ugly and average.

What? how dare a young whipper snapper criticise a UK audio legend?, what blasphemy you must surely be deaf?

Afraid not gents, dear fire up the slippers and crank up the mogadon chaps. Its just never going to happen, rather have to listen to a all naim 500 system being played through Royd Doublets and naca 4 cable that have to listen Quad static speakers.

Now the Quad big guns will no doubt posture about those legendary four stack 57's that were tweaked with in an inch of their lives on mystical valve amps and wondrous ethereal renderings springing forth from the heights of mount Olympus.

Total Uber Cock spread by the disciples of the cult of 57 (further reinforced by the later improved cult of 63)

Well have been there and so what?, yes they sound better than the stock units, but for the effort? this isn't the psychedelic 60's of Funking 70's boys this is not the land time forgot. Its real here and now reproduction and Quads make great elevator music (Is there such a thing as great elevator music?) with that lovely disjointed bass timing (sorry Bass? hum slip of the tongue there, approximation of lower frequencies with a smattering of phase incoherence).

Quad speakers like LP12's utter hype (nicely done though to fool all of the owners for that long you have to admire the marketing even before Marketing was key in a product success rather than the product actually being any good)

Are you getting the impression I do not like Quads'? you maybe on to something, having to sit through JJ's Quad demo's was like having to fly a Vespa to the moon on 2 star with a head wind on a frosty morning.

Very rare for me to have a rant these days and I am having a ok day as well. Quad can likened to substance abuse once you have been indoctrinated (Who Salisbury must have been watching in the early years!) you are are locked into the cult of Quad where everything else is considered 'Not Quad' though to be fair St Julian of Verker did take this mantra to another level a decade or so later!

Quad static owners should have to have a permit to allow use in a private dwelling between the hours of 4 and 7.30pm much like caravan owners should be restricted to only road travel between midnight and 6am on full moons.

Sorry chaps, Quad statics are like a hipster craft beer, promise so much deliver so little.

A definite case of Quadraphobia!
22945

[wee tee cee]

I see a hipster craft beer appreciator :stalks:

Tony,
Sorry I bit.

57s IMHO are very like headphones...frequency extremes are lost.

trouser flapping aint in the equation.

My box speakers are very good at what they do but ESLs are the cleanest sounding speakers ive heard apart from listening on cans.

What they do , they do unmatched IMHO.

[wee tee cee]

There ya go Tony, Sitting on that HiFi fence again :D

57s have brought me so much pleasure over the years they need a bit of sticking up for!

I listen to them and honestly think "im home "....not perfect by any means but gorgeous and magical in theyre imaging quality.

[TheMooN]

Tony,
Sorry I bit.

57s IMHO are very like headphones...frequency extremes are lost.

trouser flapping aint in the equation.

My box speakers are very good at what they do but ESLs are the cleanest sounding speakers ive heard apart from listening on cans.

What they do , they do unmatched IMHO.

Weeeeeeel, Sorry Tony, however I am going to have to put forward a somewhat contradictory opinion there, Yes the 57's are quite magical when not pushed beyond thier comfort zone and I I have owned my own original and in spec panelled 57's , also owned One thing rebuilt 57's, heard QUAD Musikwiedergabe 57's and a pair of Sheldon Stokes rebuilds imported from USA, and listened to a friends pair of origional quad factory 57's that are arguably the most 'musical' of the pack....However my current pair of ML Anniversary CLX to my ears have even more micro resolution performance, musical nuance and importantly, improved dynamic range, over any of the 57's previously mentioned.

Merely an an opinion of course.

[wee tee cee]

My 57s have given way to Reiver acoustic eddingdale mk2s with he the satori tweeter.

plumbed the 57s in last weekend-they are still magical in what they do with vocals and midrange......maybe im just an old romantic!!

[Gazjam]

Get some quality valve amplification in there Tony, the Eddies will show you they can match the 57’s for vocals and midrange.
With the added dynamic grunt and bass its the whole package.

Know your invested invested in Mr Wonfors amps, just an alternative way to skin a cat.
Just saying if your still hankering after that 57 magic.

You’ve still a lot of pain to go through until the new kit has bedded in though, let that pass and see where you are.

[TheMooN]

Not at all, as you say, on close miked singer songwriter or Bach cello concerto they Remain quite magical, I mention later ESL's Viz ML CLX mostly because the extra power handling allows one to pressurise ones room to an extent where micro details can become macro details within a 3D soundstage, should that be ones thang.

[User211]

Lotta truth in these last few posts. What is easy to see is there is commonality of agreement, really, on various Quads and how they perform.

57s just do mid range magic and nowt else really. 2905 did have a go at bass. CLX does good bass but gives up at 57Hz.

MLs and Quads fail at low volume where they turn into a wishy washy ill defined mess. The ML hybrids at least do bass well and sound quite dynamic. I owned MLs for 17 years.

I've never felt any urge to own Quads but I do see the 57s appeal. The other models I don't, really. Dull and muffled sounding I have usually found, with a total lack of meaty low end.

A high performance contemporary Apogee incorporating much of what Graz, Jon and I have learnt will simply amaze in many respects, but also feed you with so much auditory information it can feel like you are on information overload as you are literally assaulted with detail delivered at apparently blinding speed and with stunning levels of resolution. It is bloody addictive and highly exhilarating but coping with it will certainly not be everyone's cuppa as you sit there literally awestruck. But unusually for a planar they can do bass with more apparent definition and speed than the best cone speakers, and certainly lower and with more impact than any large ESL I have ever heard. But they do have excursion limitations so volume capability cannot approach a Wilson in the bass dept.

I do appreciate those who have heard older Apogees and smaller models than the ones I own might find it difficult to appreciate what I have said above, as I too have heard sub-optimal Apogees.

What's best then? Whatever you like, really. That simple.

[chris@panteg]

A very enjoyable and entertaining post Tony C, never really fancied Quads myself but have only heard them casually.

[TheMooN]

Lotta truth in these last few posts. What is easy to see is there is commonality of agreement, really, on various Quads and how they perform.

57s just do mid range magic and nowt else really. 2905 did have a go at bass. CLX does good bass but gives up at 57Hz.

MLs and Quads fail at low volume where they turn into a wishy washy ill defined mess. The ML hybrids at least do bass well and sound quite dynamic. I owned MLs for 17 years.

I've never felt any urge to own Quads but I do see the 57s appeal. The other models I don't, really. Dull and muffled sounding I have usually found, with a total lack of meaty low end.

A high performance contemporary Apogee incorporating much of what Graz, Jon and I have learnt will simply amaze in many respects, but also feed you with so much auditory information it can feel like you are on information overload as you are literally assaulted with detail delivered at apparently blinding speed and with stunning levels of resolution. It is bloody addictive and highly exhilarating but coping with it will certainly not be everyone's cuppa as you sit there literally awestruck. But unusually for a planar they can do bass with more apparent definition and speed than the best cone speakers, and certainly lower and with more impact than any large ESL I have ever heard. But they do have excursion limitations so volume capability cannot approach a Wilson in the bass dept.

I do appreciate those who have heard older Apogees and smaller models than the ones I own might find it difficult to appreciate what I have said above, as I too have heard sub-optimal Apogees.

What's best then? Whatever you like, really. That simple.

Not in my room Justin, Minus 2db at 48. a guy I chat too sent me his in room CLXmes, minus 3db at 44, don't always believe what's out there, ML privately state that they prefer to be conservative with their published DB levels.

its also about the 'quality' of that base No? I would prefer clean and coherent single panel base at those levels than overblown 'woooooooMfff.... base down to the 30's

[User211]

Not in my room Justin, Minus 2db at 49, a guy I chat too sent me his in room CLX minus 3 dd at 44, don't always believe what's out there, ML privately state that they prefer to be conservative with their published DB levels.

I can believe that. The Behringer test mic I have says mine are +/- 0DB at 21 Hz. Apogee never claimed less than 30Hz for Duettas I believe.

CLX when right doesn't actually sound that bass constrained with a lot of material. I loved them with all ARC kit until the signal hit some Jadis JA200s. Fabulous.

[cyclopse]

I can believe that. The Behringer test mic I have says mine are +/- 0DB at 21 Hz. Apogee never claimed less than 30Hz for Duettas I believe.

CLX when right doesn't actually sound that bass constrained with a lot of material. I loved them with all ARC kit until the signal hit some Jadis JA200s. Fabulous.

Only heard the Jadis JA200 once at the Heathrow show years ago. They were driving Anthony Gallo I seem to remember. Superb controlled bass I have never forgotten.

[User211]

Only heard the Jadis JA200 once at the Heathrow show years ago. They were driving Anthony Gallo I seem to remember. Superb controlled bass I have never forgotten.

I remember Gallos and JA80s at Heathrow. Nice cuddly warm sound from that combo.

[Marco]

There are some unquestionably fantastic cellular construction transducers from the likes of YG, Magico, as well as Hybrids such as Gryphon Pendragon's etc.etc, all modern design concepts and production Marco :whistle:

And:


Marco,

I would suggest a pair of Apogee Scintilla's would cause you some reconsidering even the stages.
Though quality amplification is required due to the rather silly 79dB sens and 1 ohm load lol


Lol... Why am I being brought into this chaps? I don't recall having contributed to this thread so far... :hmm:

Ok, here's what I think (based on my experience to date):

Like any good, well-designed speakers, Quad ESLs are able to *truly excel* in some areas (arguably producing the most realistic and least coloured midrange available from any speaker), but the trade-off is evident in other areas of their frequency response (slightly recessed top-end with compromised, although adequately reproduced bass for most needs).

Peter Walker had a specific goal in mind, when he designed the original 57s [it was never meant to be 'all things to all men'], and also what they'd be partnered with, in order to achieve that goal [his own electronics at the time], and IMO, he achieved that with considerable aplomb. As such, for me, they deserve to be considered as an iconic design, and one of the best speakers ever produced.

Would I use them?

No, not unless I was building a second system, tailored to suit them, and to play music that they were designed to most faithfully reproduce (anything involving the human voice and acoustic instruments), but specifically classical music. However, that's not to say that they're not good with other stuff - but crucially only with music that doesn't require listening to very loudly, in order to sound 'realistic', such as heavy rock.

Quad ESLs simply won't go terribly loud, especially in a large room, before the sound starts to fall apart. When they're used within their optimum range, however, and with the right music in the right system [and positioned properly in the right room], the results produced can be spellbinding - and most of all, unlike many of today's speakers, they sound 'musical'.

Therefore, much like many well-thought out, well-designed speakers, they're a very capable 'tool', when used for their intended purpose, and within designed parameters.

For me though, they put 'too many of their eggs into the one basket', as it were, and my musical tastes are a little too diverse for them to do that justice, but I'd certainly be predisposed to using them more than I would the vast majority of a-musical, tuneless 'hi-fi squawkers', posing as speakers, today! :exactly:

So there you have it, my views on the Quads Tony hates.....

As for the Apogees mentioned, I've heard some great sounds from them at shows, but as yet haven't heard them in a good home system. For that, I await my visit to Justers! Not sure I could live with the looks though, as it's not my thing. In that respect, I'm (mostly) a retro guy at heart :cool:

Marco.

[User211]

For that, I await my visit to Justers! Not sure I could live with the looks though, as it's not my thing. In that respect, I'm (mostly) a retro guy at heart :cool:

Marco.

We're trying to move house and the current plan is actually somewhere much closer to you... though not in Wales. Probs best left til then.

The proposed new room is friggin' huge, though. Kind of wonder how well they will work in it. Might have to get some Full Range made instead.

[Macca]

We're trying to move house and the current plan is actually somewhere much closer to you... though not in Wales. Probs best left til then.

The proposed new room is friggin' huge, though. Kind of wonder how well they will work in it. Might have to get some Full Range made instead.

Moving up to Stoke then Justin? You know it makes sense ;)

[wee tee cee]

And:



Lol... Why am I being brought into this chaps? I don't recall having contributed to this thread so far... :hmm:

Ok, here's what I think (based on my experience to date):

Like any good, well-designed speakers, Quad ESLs are able to *truly excel* in some areas (arguably producing the most realistic and least coloured midrange available from any speaker), but the trade-off is evident in other areas of their frequency response (slightly recessed top-end with compromised, although adequately reproduced bass for most needs).

Peter Walker had a specific goal in mind, when he designed the original 57s [it was never meant to be 'all things to all men'], and also what they'd be partnered with, in order to achieve that goal [his own electronics at the time], and IMO, he achieved that with considerable aplomb. As such, for me, they deserve to be considered as an iconic design, and one of the best speakers ever produced.

Would I use them?

No, not unless I was building a second system, tailored to suit them, and to play music that they were designed to most faithfully reproduce (anything involving the human voice and acoustic instruments), but specifically classical music. However, that's not to say that they're not good with other stuff - but crucially only with music that doesn't require listening to very loudly, in order to sound 'realistic', such as heavy rock.

Quad ESLs simply won't go terribly loud, especially in a large room, before the sound starts to fall apart. When they're used within their optimum range, however, and with the right music in the right system [and positioned properly in the right room], the results produced can be spellbinding - and most of all, unlike many of today's speakers, they sound 'musical'.

Therefore, much like many well-thought out, well-designed speakers, they're a very capable 'tool', when used for their intended purpose, and within designed parameters.

For me though, they put 'too many of their eggs into the one basket', as it were, and my musical tastes are a little too diverse for them to do that justice, but I'd certainly be predisposed to using them more than I would the vast majority of a-musical, tuneless 'hi-fi squawkers', posing as speakers, today! :exactly:

So there you have it, my views on the Quads Tony hates.....

As for the Apogees mentioned, I've heard some great sounds from them at shows, but as yet haven't heard them in a good home system. For that, I await my visit to Justers! Not sure I could live with the looks though, as it's not my thing. In that respect, I'm (mostly) a retro guy at heart :cool:

Marco.

Spot on Marco...

[wee tee cee]

Get some quality valve amplification in there Tony, the Eddies will show you they can match the 57’s for vocals and midrange.
With the added dynamic grunt and bass its the whole package.

Know your invested invested in Mr Wonfors amps, just an alternative way to skin a cat.
Just saying if your still hankering after that 57 magic.

You’ve still a lot of pain to go through until the new kit has bedded in though, let that pass and see where you are.

Im hearing you Gary but im very happy with the noise getting made with the class A.

Incremental improvements every day with the eddies and cables settling down but at the end of the day you cant get round the physics of moving big drivers as opposed to a mylar film.

The ESLs are incredibly fast and dont have any cabinet noise- pure pish at Floyd though!!!

[steveharman]

And if you do go for some 63s Bev there's an often overlooked sub-woofer option available for them (probably not made any more?) I got lucky on a used set from eBay during my experimental phase, which sadly I no longer have.

Astonishing bass response and they raised the Quads up to 'sitting-on-sofa-ear-height'.

http://www.regonaudio.com/Gradient%20SW-63%20Subwoofer.html

Steve

[User211]

Moving up to Stoke then Justin? You know it makes sense ;)

Easier MiBO access. The genuine reason.

:D

[Marco]

We're trying to move house and the current plan is actually somewhere much closer to you... though not in Wales. Probs best left til then.


No worries... It's a bastid when the bailiffs are after you!:D

Marco.

[Ninanina]

I have to say that I loved my 57's when I had them and would definitely get another pair if I could fit them in width wise, actually one of my all time favourite speakers I've ever owned

I could have fitted in a pair of 63's as they are not as wide as the 57's, and was looking for a good pair, but the Maggies came up and they are sounding very nice

Colin will be getting his welder out very soon to make some metal brackets for the Maggies, bless him :D, actually he quite likes making things. The idea is initially just to get them upright and simply fixed to some sort of plinth and see how I get on with them before making anything more elaborate

[Mr. C]

My word Marco

I'm mildly impressed. a very reasoned response, rather then the early days of a Marco special retort, B+ sir :grouphug:

On the whole I am in agreement with pretty much of whats been mentioned as well, except for the part that 57's are best in class mid range. not even close.

Without question you wouldn't invest in 57's or 63's if you were looking for high SPL, big transient response music for Mahler, Wagner, Tchaikovsky etc or Metallic, Zep or Floyd.

As already pointed out their strengths lie in mid range renderings which they are good at no question, but seriously technology has really moved on. It is not just a question of textural layering, micro and macro dynamic response or timbrel replication all of these traits are given. It is the ability of a transducer to take you to heart of the performance without as many drawbacks as possible, like a window to the composer, artist or band time of inspiration at the time of creating that piece of music.

Conversely having a pair of 'big Bangers' than can blow your doors off ala' Phil Spector with the bass presence of a Saturn V during take off with all the subtly of Harmish Mc Shagnasty's Imperial bowel cleanser brew number 5 (ABV 45%) is also pissing in the wind of quality sound reproduction. Majorly exciting for short control bursts or long term mogadon abuse, difficult choice?
So either a delicate wall flower or demolition derby to your ear drums?

They is more to music than either of those extreme's of sonic reproduction, getting the balance right is tricky and every one is very different.

However Justin made a very valid point concerning this:

"A high performance contemporary Apogee incorporating much of what Graz, Jon and I have learnt will simply amaze in many respects, but also feed you with so much auditory information it can feel like you are on information overload as you are literally assaulted with detail delivered at apparently blinding speed and with stunning levels of resolution. It is bloody addictive and highly exhilarating but coping with it will certainly not be everyone's cuppa as you sit there literally awestruck. But unusually for a planar they can do bass with more apparent definition and speed than the best cone speakers, and certainly lower and with more impact than any large ESL I have ever heard. But they do have excursion limitations so volume capability cannot approach a Wilson in the bass dept."

You can produce a sound which is genuine 'too real' for a great many individual's and it really does shock them and causes cerebral overload. By simply putting you inside the musical studio. This can overwhelming for many people.

There are higher levels of resolutions available other than Apogee's can generate, however it is the overall presentation that also delivers the impression / realism. This again depends on the source and transparent amplification that is feeding the speakers as always.

People have a comfort zone with their own type / style of sound and that is their benchmark which they use when listen to other systems.

For example on the realism scale of 1 to 10:-

If 1 is a pair of 57, Kondo 300B's and Meridian 808.2

Then 10 would a pair of Q7's, Dartzeel Mono's and MSB Diamond dac stack.

Most people on here fit in to the 4-6 bracket with a few guys venturing to 7.5-8.

This is purely a question of what each individual is looking nothing more.

How do you like your coffee, are you a Flat white, Americano or triple espresso?

[Ninanina]

Ouch... steady on..

[Marco]

Colin will be getting his welder out very soon...

Is he indeed... So is that what you call it now? Lucky you!:D:eyebrows:

Marco.

[Marco]

Tony, interesting post - I'll comment later. Just about to tuck into my tea! :cool:

Marco.

[Ninanina]

Is he indeed... So is that what you call it now? Lucky you!:D:eyebrows:

Marco.
Indeed.... :doh: :rfl:

[Mike Reed]

Bit late to today's party, but very good analysis by Marco, although based upon 57s and Mr C's intriguing piece about Apogees, of which I know nothing. I do, however, disagree with the specific genre allocation to ESLs, though obviously subjectively.

I do play Zep and, indeed, heavier stuff, plus full on Fairport. In fact, pretty much most genres except modern pop/rap (is that music?). My big Quads excel at all of these; even Mahler and big, orchestral classical. I couldn't say that about the 57s I had prior to the 2905s as, good as they were in parts, didn't do scale; nor range, though that was impressive considering. A curate's egg, maybe, but sufficient to push me straight into their modern big brother.

If the big Apogees make up for the limitations of my 2095s but lose nothing in comparison, they surely must be the epitome of planars. I rather think they may have quirky driving habits (a bit like Maggies?), and I wonder what sort of amplification would be suitable, as I've no idea.

Thought that I may have arrived at last, but if there's something................... Now, stacking 2905s; hmmm! Not sure.

[Bksabath]

right I was looking at the 2905 instead of the Maggies 1.7 No where to audition them near by
But then there is the price I could have had a pair of ex-demo Magies 3.7i for around £7k or a pair of 20 years old Sonus Faber Amati from Ebay for 6K or or or or :scratch:
But that would have meant big credit card charges and having to delay a cartridge upgrade.
I think I made the right compromise Is not this hobby of ours just a series of compromises to be made?
The nagging doubt I have right now is what I could have had for 3K that would have made such a big improvement as the 1.7i ?

[Sherwood]

right I was looking at the 2905 instead of the Maggies 1.7 No where to audition them near by
But then there is the price I could have had a pair of ex-demo Magies 3.7i for around £7k or a pair of 20 years old Sonus Faber Amati from Ebay for 6K or or or or :scratch:
But that would have meant big credit card charges and having to delay a cartridge upgrade.
I think I made the right compromise Is not this hobby of ours just a series of compromises to be made?
The nagging doubt I have right now is what I could have had for 3K that would have made such a big improvement as the 1.7i ?

Even with the huge mark-up over US prices, I think that the 1.7s are one of the true bargains in hifi today. Yes, there are better speakers, but not in terms of the attributes that are important (to me) and not at anywhere near the price. The downside: finding an amp to realise their potential!

Geoff

[jandl100]

The downside: finding an amp to realise their potential!

Geoff

The problem there can be knowing what their potential is!
If you haven't had a good dem and just plug them into an amp that has been used to drive easier speakers then you will probably never know.

[User211]

If the big Apogees make up for the limitations of my 2095s but lose nothing in comparison, they surely must be the epitome of planars.

It is to a large extent achedmic as they don't really exist anymore, though you can get them refurbished and even built from scratch to far, far higher standards than Apogee ever managed.

Unrefurbushed pairs in the year 2018 aren't likely to perform that well.

I'd invite you over for a listen but you're miles away.

[Mike Reed]

Ah, I see ! Research over, then. Ta for the invite but 200 odd miles is a bit much.:)

[User211]

Ah, I see ! Research over, then. Ta for the invite but 200 odd miles is a bit much.:)No different to Quad 57s really - long out of production. So research away there's loads on the web.

Finding a pair of say Full Range to restore in this country is going to be hard though and a challenge both space and amp wise.

Google Reality Audio for the restorer.

[paulf-2007]

No different to Quad 57s really - long out of production. So research away there's loads on the web.

Finding a pair of say Full Range to restore in this country is going to be hard though and a challenge both space and amp wise.

Google Reality Audio for the restorer.was it your apogees at Scalford with the blue lighting some years ago Justin?

[User211]

was it your apogees at Scalford with the blue lighting some years ago Justin?

No. I did hear that pair though. Here they are I shot a vid.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_luDXJeVFI

That was one of the first restorations done in this country. They were basic Calipers, in a room way to big for them to live in.

There is simply no comparison between those and recent Caliper Sigs restorations. And no comparison between those and restored Duettas. And no comparison between restored Duettas and the special Duettas I have had made etc etc.

Here's mine, running with what I would call a "hot" crossover, and the first Accuphase monoblocks ever made (1975), proving 93+ DB is possible from 75 Watts, and hence throwing away the complete mis-conception you need a Kilowatt to drive them. 93DB is pneumatic drill type loud+.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C61EfuhyHeM&t=305s

And via 211 valve amps playing audiophile wank, mainly to compare with the Martin Logan Neolith at Munich playing the same song that I shot with the same camera.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-P1UJ7rGeE&t=46s

I will re-shoot these now the crossover is where I want it using much uprated components and pulling back the mid range considerably, with a decent microphone and not some poor on-board camera mics as shot here.

[paulf-2007]

Ah yes Dr Rock, remember that name. I always remembered them as being taller.

[User211]

Ah yes Dr Rock, remember that name. I always remembered them as being taller.He was alright. Came to one of my bake offs.

[Mike Reed]

So that's what they look like. A bit peculiar with more frame than I'd imagined. Does that vertical strip at the side exude treble or what? I had expected them to be taller, too. Thanks for that; interesting.

[User211]

They do get tall. Strip is the MRT - mid range and treble.

Look here: http://www.reality-audio.com/apogeespeakers.html

See Full Range, Diva, Grand.

[Ninanina]

No. I did hear that pair though. Here they are I shot a vid.

That was one of the first restorations done in this country. They were basic Calipers, in a room way to big for them to live in.

There is simply no comparison between those and recent Caliper Sigs restorations. And no comparison between those and restored Duettas. And no comparison between restored Duettas and the special Duettas I have had made etc etc.

Here's mine, running with what I would call a "hot" crossover, and the first Accuphase monoblocks ever made (1975), proving 93+ DB is possible from 75 Watts, and hence throwing away the complete mis-conception you need a Kilowatt to drive them. 93DB is pneumatic drill type loud+.

And via 211 valve amps playing audiophile wank, mainly to compare with the Martin Logan Neolith at Munich playing the same song that I shot with the same camera.

I will re-shoot these now the crossover is where I want it using much uprated components and pulling back the mid range considerably, with a decent microphone and not some poor on-board camera mics as shot here.

They look lovely Justin

My Maggies are sounding lovely and so much better than I anticipated

I was thinking of getting some sort of acoustic material to place behind the speakers so if anyone has any recommendations I'd really appreciate it

[Sherwood]

They look lovely Justin

My Maggies are sounding lovely and so much better than I anticipated

I was thinking of getting some sort of acoustic material to place behind the speakers so if anyone has any recommendations I'd really appreciate it

Bev,

Have you sorted out the supports and got them away from the walls. There is a big danger in overdamping the room with Maggies, as the reflected sounds seem to be part of what makes them special.

Once you have them out in the room you can better judge what room treatment if any is required. If you are going the diy route, then panels made of Rockwool RWA45 seem to be the way to go.

https://www.travisperkins.co.uk/Rockwool-RWA45-Acoustic-Insulation-Slab-100mm-x-1200mm-x-600mm-%282-88m2-Pack%29/p/961938

Geoff

[Ninanina]

Bev,

Have you sorted out the supports and got them away from the walls. There is a big danger in overdamping the room with Maggies, as the reflected sounds seem to be part of what makes them special.

Once you have them out in the room you can better judge what room treatment if any is required. If you are going the diy route, then panels made of Rockwool RWA45 seem to be the way to go.

https://www.travisperkins.co.uk/Rockwool-RWA45-Acoustic-Insulation-Slab-100mm-x-1200mm-x-600mm-%282-88m2-Pack%29/p/961938

Geoff

Unfortunatley as Colin is on crutches for a few weeks the supports will not be made just yet, however I just ordered some nice thick 90 deg brackets which we will use to secure the Maggies to a plinth once Colin is more active

I guess what I meant with 'room treatment' was to try and stop too much from behind the speakers going through to my lovely neighbours.. ;)

Thanks for the link on the Rockwool

[Sherwood]

Unfortunatley as Colin is on crutches for a few weeks the supports will not be made just yet, however I just ordered some nice thick 90 deg brackets which we will use to secure the Maggies to a plinth once Colin is more active

I guess what I meant with 'room treatment' was to try and stop too much from behind the speakers going through to my lovely neighbours.. ;)

Thanks for the link on the Rockwool

Ah! So sound insulation rather than acoustic room treatment. That is a completely different challenge and a lot more expensive. Air gaps and mass are the general route. However, If you have a large book collection, then a couple of tall and well stuffed bookcases can do wonders. Rockwool have other products for acoustic insulation that are worth checking out but it depends upon your budget and commitment to the challenge.

Geoff

BTW: You can always recycle Colin's crutches as stands once he is back on his feet!

[Ninanina]

Ah! So sound insulation rather than acoustic room treatment. That is a completely different challenge and a lot more expensive. Air gaps and mass are the general route. However, If you have a large book collection, then a couple of tall and well stuffed bookcases can do wonders. Rockwool have other products for acoustic insulation that are worth checking out but it depends upon your budget and commitment to the challenge.

Geoff

BTW: You can always recycle Colin's crutches as stands once he is back on his feet!

Indeed Geoff

I am trying to describe the sound of the Maggies and the best I can come up with is that they sound nothing like they look... they are sweet, delicate and intimate sounding to me.. does that make any sense ? :doh:

[Sherwood]

Indeed Geoff

I am trying to describe the sound of the Maggies and the best I can come up with is that they sound nothing like they look... they are sweet, delicate and intimate sounding to me.. does that make any sense ? :doh:

Yes, I recognise those attributes. However, get them properly mounted, placed and driven and I would add: muscular, effortless, and airy. It is difficult to beat Maggies for reproduction of live acoustic music.

Geoff

[Ninanina]

Yes, I recognise those attributes. However, get them properly mounted, placed and driven and I would add: muscular, effortless, and airy. It is difficult to beat Maggies for reproduction of live acoustic music.

Geoff

I absolutely know there is much more to come from my Maggies once they are properly mounted and placed... I would agree "effortless" and "airy" is another way I would describe their sound and also no listener fatigue at all

[Ninanina]

Strange thing about the Maggies is that even though they are about as tall as I am they don't really show up the room.. I think that is probably because they have oak side cheeks and an oatmeal coloured fabric so they just sort of blend in rather than my other speakers being dark wood affairs which stick out like a sore thumb

As we are on one word descriptions I would also describe them as 'articulate'..

[Ninanina]

As I don't have a lot of books, or a bookcase, does anyone have any good sound insulation recommendations?

[walpurgis]

No books? I have books everywhere! :)

[Ninanina]

No books? I have books everywhere! :)

Does the Kindle count ? I don't have enough Kindles to put behind the Maggies :lol:

[Sherwood]

As I don't have a lot of books, or a bookcase, does anyone have any good sound insulation recommendations?

As I suggested earlier, containment of sound is a major challenge typically requiring major building work (e.g. construction of false partition walls stuffed with acoustic wadding). Problem with sound is that like water, it will leak where possible. There is no cheap or simple way of stopping sound escaping from a room. If you don't have books, then LPs, cds, or anything else massy on shelving or in bookcases will help a little. A heavy fabric drape on the shared wall may help a little, especially if you have stuff on shelving behind it. You can google acoustic curtain but such fabric is expensive and needs to be supported properly.

Geoff

[Liffy99]

See my acoustic panels in the for sale section. I can probably make more . . .

[Ninanina]

Thanks Stephen

I was thinking about making my own so I might steal your idea, sorry :doh:

I'll also take a look at acoustic curtains Geoff, thanks

[Sherwood]

Thanks Stephen

I was thinking about making my own so I might steal your idea, sorry :doh:

I'll also take a look at acoustic curtains Geoff, thanks

Making your panels is not difficult, though be careful in handling the Rockwool (best done outdoors). Acoustic curtains are crazily heavy and not inexpensive.

Difficult to get the Rockwell panels if you are not in the trade. If you buy two of the (recommended) 100mm thickness packs (8 separate panels) from Travis Perkins, you will get free delivery. https://www.travisperkins.co.uk/Rockwool-RWA45-Acoustic-Insulation-Slab-100mm-x-1200mm-x-600mm-%282-88m2-Pack%29/p/961938

Geoff

[Ninanina]

Thanks for all the replies about sound insulation/room treatment but it's all on hold while Colin is on crutches and cannot help me making up anything at the moment

I now also have some nice thick & heavy 90 degree brackets, the correct USA size screws/bolts to secure them to the Maggies, some new USA size grub screws for the jumpers, new fuses and Colin has a nice piece of wood for the plinths

Again it is all on hold while he is on crutches :doh: bless him...

So I still have the Maggies kind of 'leaning' against the rear wall which is not ideal at all... however they are just sounding amazing even with this rubbish placement... I've not been so impressed with any hifi item for a very long while.. they sound absolutely nothing like any speaker I've owned, even the 57's, and for what I paid I consider them a complete bargain

I am still amazed that these rather strange looking things can produce music at all let alone to the quality I am hearing.. :)

My lovely neighbour is away for a few days so the Maggies are wicked up a bit... :eek:

[User211]

FWIW I really like 1.7s. For the money they are fabulous.

[Ninanina]

FWIW I really like 1.7s. For the money they are fabulous.

Exactly Justin... if, long term, I got on with my rather old Maggies I will be considering something newer from Magneplanar which will probably be the new 1.7i's

[Sherwood]

Exactly Justin... if, long term, I got on with my rather old Maggies I will be considering something newer from Magneplanar which will probably be the new 1.7i's

Don't discount the smaller 0.7's. These are amazing and easy to bring back from the US as cargo hold. Yes, vat still payable but nothing like the mark up of UK dealers!

Geoff

[Ninanina]

Don't discount the smaller 0.7's. These are amazing and easy to bring back from the US as cargo hold. Yes, vat still payable but nothing like the mark up of UK dealers!

Geoff

Thanks Geoff... how do the 0.7's compare the the larger 1.7i's? I am guessing that the bottom end is not as extended

The reason I purchased my rather old MG1's is that they are the 'larger' Maggies so as not to compromise too much on the bottom end... however I am not a bass freak..

[walpurgis]

Without equalisation and not taking into account room effects, the bass extension of dipole speakers is largely governed by the smallest dimension across the speaker.

[Ninanina]

Without equalisation and not taking into account room effects, the bass extension of dipole speakers is largely governed by the smallest dimension across the speaker.

Could you explain a bit further Geoff? as I'm not sure I quite understand ... ooops ;)

[walpurgis]

Could you explain a bit further Geoff? as I'm not sure I quite understand ... ooops ;)

If you have the energy Bev, you could look through this.

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/loudspeakers/68-technology/144-designing-loudspeakers-open-baffles-and-bass-part-15.html

[Ninanina]

If you have the energy Bev, you could look through this.

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/loudspeakers/68-technology/144-designing-loudspeakers-open-baffles-and-bass-part-15.html

That's a bit heavy for me Geoff... I'm only a 'girly' you know

I can say that my MG1's have a bass of : 428in² .... does that mean anything at all ? apparently the new 1.7's have a midbass : 442in² .. so slightly larger

[Sherwood]

Bev,

yes the theory is important, but first hand subjective experience more so. If you plan a trip to the US (unfortunately you will find it difficult to hear the 0.7s in the UK) then schedule a trip to a Maggie dealer. My guess, having owned two set of Maggies now, is that you will be coming home with some new speakers,

Geoff

[Ninanina]

Bev,

yes the theory is important, but first hand subjective experience more so. If you plan a trip to the US (unfortunately you will find it difficult to hear the 0.7s in the UK) then schedule a trip to a Maggie dealer. My guess, having owned two set of Maggies now, is that you will be coming home with some new speakers,

Geoff

I am certainly not planning a trip to the US, but you never know Geoff

Which Maggies did you own before your 1.7's ?

[Sherwood]

I am certainly not planning a trip to the US, but you never know Geoff

Which Maggies did you own before your 1.7's ?

MG12's. I loved them. Had them in a huge room when I was living in Malawi and they sounded fantastic. Only parted with them because one of my local colleagues begged me to sel them to him them when I left the country.

Geoff

PS Probably about the same size as the 0.7s

[Ninanina]

MG12's. I loved them. Had them in a huge room when I was living in Malawi and they sounded fantastic. Only parted with them because one of my local colleagues begged me to sel them to him them when I left the country.

Geoff

I believe the MG12's are a bit smaller than my MG1's and your current 1.7's so did you find the bass lacking at all ?

[Sherwood]

I believe the MG12's are a bit smaller than my MG1's and your current 1.7's so did you find the bass lacking at all ?

Not in the slightest! I speak as an owner of LS3/5a speakers. If you can live with these the smaller Maggies will sound magnificent.

Geoff

[Ninanina]

Not in the slightest! I speak as an owner of LS3/5a speakers. If you can live with these the smaller Maggies will sound magnificent.

Geoff

I also owned some lovely LS3/5a's... I loved them to bits but having very low output SET amps was not a good match for them so sold them last year

I could certainly live with the LS's sound when partnered with the right amp though

[Sherwood]

I also owned some lovely LS3/5a's... I loved them to bits but having very low output SET amps was not a good match for them so sold them last year

I could certainly live with the LS's sound when partnered with the right amp though

I bought my Rogers LS3/5a speakers when I was at Uni in the late 70's. Cost me £150 from a shop in the Edgware Road London (still have the speakers and the receipt). Imagine a pair of LS3/5a speakers with al their positives but with real dynamics, razor sharp transients, and better (yes better) imaging.

Geoff

[Ninanina]

Having said all that I am really loving my MG1's sound... so natural, so not fatiguing, so efforless and so very musical....

I cannot get my head round what they look like and how music just flows from them, magical indeed. They sound absolutely nothing like they look if that makes sense

To be honest I cannot imagine not keeping the Maggies and, I am sure, I will be selling the other speakers I have in the coming months, no rush though just to make sure :D

[Sherwood]

Having said all that I am really loving my MG1's sound... so natural, so not fatiguing, so efforless and so very musical....

I cannot get my head round what they look like and how music just flows from them, magical indeed. They sound absolutely nothing like they look if that makes sense

To be honest I cannot imagine not keeping the Maggies and, I am sure, I will be selling the other speakers I have in the coming months, no rush though just to make sure :D

I think you are on the same path as me. Either optimise your existing Maggies, or invest in new ones!

[Ninanina]

I think you are on the same path as me. Either optimise your existing Maggies, or invest in new ones!

Absolutely Geoff

I am just loving the sound of my Maggies. When I have them properly set-up with new brackets and plinths etc I will assess them, but I am pretty sure they will sound even better then

I will live with them for some months before deciding to invest in new Maggies as I am in no rush to part with the MG1's

[Ninanina]

The Maggies also sound very good at low listening levels... which is a bonus :)

[Gerry]

I think you are on the same path as me. Either optimise your existing Maggies, or invest in new ones!

A lot can be done with the x-overs. My MG12s (and previous SMGa, b, &c's were too) were transformed when I changed the x-over to better components. There is a lot of info re this on the Planar Asylum MUG forum. I also have various info if needed.

[Bksabath]

yes good read that forum
question for Ninanina di you try the bridge over resistors on the tweters
Supplied 1 homes are to much and pretty nasty would you like to try a pair of Fucushima Futaba 0.47 ?
send me PM and I put a couple of them in the mail
About the cross over yes looking in to it will I resist till warranty is over ?
and I have already eared a big improvement on the Maggies by changing cables whit the QED Supremus I got a 1 meter set on order :)

[Bksabath]

Just made big improvement to my Magies
I do not spend much on cables normaly, the Klotz I use is pretty good, but I had a friend to pop in whit is QED Supremus the difference that that made was audible straight away so I got a 1 meter long set, the mono block's F5 are near enough to do that they arrived 2 days ago.
No need to say he is going to build the F5, my system is that good now :)

[Ninanina]

Thanks for the posts

I am quite sure my Maggies can be improved upon Gerry with some x-over tweeks but won't be doing anything until I have the new plinths/brackets made and can get them into the room properly. Colin is now off his crutches so will be making a start very soon on these but if it's ok I will contact you about the info when I look into it further, thank you. Yes the Planar Asylum forum has already been a great help to me and my Maggies

Sandro I don't have a bridge for the tweeters on my Maggies, just lots of bridges for various amp inputs, like this:

http://i.imgur.com/aUAiW7L.jpg (https://imgur.com/aUAiW7L)

Thanks for the offer Sandro of the Fucushima Futaba 0.47 but to be honest I have no idea what it/they are... sorry to sound so thick :doh:

As far as speaker cable is concerned I am using Naim NACA5 which is probably not the greatest cable available but it suits the Naim amp & Naim setup so well

I've not had any toons on for a few days but tonight they are on again and I am still so impressed with the Maggies and definitely one of my better purchases ;)

[Ninanina]

I'd love to know what percentage of people are using electrostatic/planar speakers...

[Barry]

Well I'm one, and have done so for just over forty years. ;)

[struth]

Won't make half a percentage point. Same with full range.

[Ninanina]

Well I'm one, and have done so for just over forty years. ;)

Is it electrostatics you have Barry?

You are probably right Grant that not many are using them..

[walpurgis]

Won't make half a percentage point. Same with full range.

And Class A SS and Deccas. :)

Could always ask who's using Elcaset I suppose.

[Ninanina]

Quite right Geoff as I am sure there are not many using Class A SS

[Ninanina]

Is there a way of making a poll to see ?

[Barry]

Quite right Geoff as I am sure there are not many using Class A SS


Well again I do! :lol:

Mark Levinson ML-2 (25W pure class A) monobolcks feeding Quad 57s.

(Oh, and I also have a Decca cartridge set up on one of my decks.)

[Barry]

Is there a way of making a poll to see ?

Yes of course - just start a new thread asking the question and, using the "Thread Tools" tab at the top, add a poll.

[Sherwood]

Yes of course - just start a new thread asking the question and, using the "Thread Tools" tab at the top, add a poll.

I have voted, but in the full understanding that this poll is particularly susceptible to (self) selection bias! :rolleyes:

[walpurgis]

Perhaps we should have a poll on whether polls are considered biased. Mind you, the result could be biased.

[Sherwood]

Perhaps we should have a poll on whether polls are considered biased. Mind you, the result could be biased.

I for one would not vote on such a poll! :doh:

[Barry]

It all depends on how the question is worded.

[Sherwood]

It all depends on how the question is worded.

More likely influenced by knowledge of the underlying technology and therefore the inclination to read the forum thread in the first place!

[Ninanina]

Have I worded it ok ?

[walpurgis]

I for one would not vote on such a poll! :doh:

Well that would skew the result.

[Barry]

More likely influenced by knowledge of the underlying technology and therefore the inclination to read the forum thread in the first place!

I would have thought most members would know if their speakers are planar (dipole) designs or not, without necessarily knowing or understanding the underlying technology.

The poll is only a bit of 'fun' to Members; not something that would be of interest to the Office of National Statistics.

[Sherwood]

Well that would skew the result.

I'm moving to Heteroscedasti City!

[walpurgis]

:lol:

[Ninanina]

The poll is only a bit of 'fun' to Members; not something that would be of interest to the Office of National Statistics.

Absolutely Barry just a bit of fun

And I also don't understand how planar speakers work to be honest, but that doesn't stop me enjoying them :D

[Ninanina]

However I am sure if I read all there is to know on the net I could learn exactly how these things work... which I might do actually as it fascinates me how sound can come out of the strangest looking things :D

When I owned 57's I didn't understand those either but they were plugged into the mains and that kind of made some sense but the Maggies are not, very strange indeed...

[Sherwood]

However I am sure if I read all there is to know on the net I could learn exactly how these things work... which I might do actually as it fascinates me how sound can come out of the strangest looking things :D

When I owned 57's I didn't understand those either but they were plugged into the mains and that kind of made some sense but the Maggies are not, very strange indeed...

In a nutshell! http://www.magnepan.com/magneplanar_technology

Geoff

[Ninanina]

Thanks for the link Geoff... :)

[Ninanina]

That kind of might explain why so many people love the sound of Tannoy and similar speakers as the driver is generally of low mass. When I owned Lowthers I did experience this 'fast' response as they are probably one of the lowest mass cones available, however they did have their limitations, but I loved their sound driven by just 1.5w of SET amp at the time

[Bksabath]

2320423205
Thanks for the posts




Sandro I don't have a bridge for the tweeters on my Maggies, just lots of bridges for various amp inputs, like this:

http://i.imgur.com/aUAiW7L.jpg (https://imgur.com/aUAiW7L)

Thanks for the offer Sandro of the Fucushima Futaba 0.47 but to be honest I have no idea what it/they are... sorry to sound so thick :doh:

As far as speaker cable is concerned I am using Naim NACA5 which is probably not the greatest cable available but it suits the Naim amp & Naim setup so well

I've not had any toons on for a few days but tonight they are on again and I am still so impressed with the Maggies and definitely one of my better purchases ;)

On the 1.7 there is just one jumper and is marked as tweeter attenuator the speakers came supplied whit same ceramic resistors.

No need to say as Magnepan give one the possibility to tweak one must and will tweak :D I tried the Fucushima Futaba MPC 74 0.47 R and they did make same improvement and to me better than the supplied stock that dulled things a bit to much
Things may be different for other room's or positions / taste

[Firebottle]

I'm moving to Heteroscedasti City!

But will you always know where you live?
:eyebrows:

[Sherwood]

But will you always know where you live?
:eyebrows:

On the edge of town: an outlier as always! :)

[Sherwood]

2320423205

On the 1.7 there is just one jumper and is marked as tweeter attenuator the speakers came supplied whit same ceramic resistors.

No need to say as Magnepan give one the possibility to tweak one must and will tweak :D I tried the Fucushima Futaba MPC 74 0.47 R and they did make same improvement and to me better than the supplied stock that dulled things a bit to much
Things may be different for other room's or positions / taste

Sandro,

I also have Maggie 1.7s and have never felt the need to use any attenuation on the treble. I suspect that this is only required in the case of a very bright system or a room with highly reflective hard surfaces. However, I did replace the cheap metal bridge with a short length of speaker cable (same type as used for the speaker to amp connection). I can't say that it made a huge difference, but I think it improves clarity a "smidgeon"!

Not played around with fuses, probably because I am sceptical of any benefits.

Geoff

[Marco]

Whilst I acknowledge what statics/panel speakers do well (and in some areas outperform box speakers), they're not really my thing, mainly because, to my ears, none I've heard so far get the bass right, which is massively important for how I listen to music - and what makes the type of music I listen to most, sound real.

It's a trade-off with statics/panels (present in ALL speakers), in order to excel in certain areas, mainly the midrange. If I listened differently and didn't have such wide tastes in music, which I seek to accurately reproduce as far as possible, and I could put up with their looks, it would be a different kettle of fish :cool:

Marco.