Chinese Clones - Good value for money or rip off?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Have you been looking around ebay recently? Douk audio seem to producing clones for many famous high-end and classic marques. I've found Sansui, Naim, EAR, and now Accuphase. Should we be taking these guys seriously and think about trying some of these clones. Just think you could save a lot of money. I've been messing around with EAR 834 clones for 6 months and have to admit to being a bit smitten. So, what do you guys think? :scratch:

[fatmarley]

I think component choice is just as important as the circuit but I'd imagine it's less important with a good circuit. The old Naim amplifier circuit is quite noisy but all the tants used for coupling help hide the rough edges. You've only got to try replacing them with polypropylene caps to hear those rough edges shine through.

[Macca]

Have you got a link to one of these clones of old marques, Andrew? Sounds interesting.

[Macca]

Found the Douk Audio eBay site. Madre mia they have a lot of interesting stuff on there. Lots of cute valve amps and a cute passive pre, Not sure about compatibility with UK mains though.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=douk+audio&rt=nc

[walpurgis]

The 'Little Bear' products are worth doing a search for.

[paulf-2007]

Found the Douk Audio eBay site. Madre mia they have a lot of interesting stuff on there. Lots of cute valve amps and a cute passive pre, Not sure about compatibility with UK mains though.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=douk+audio&rt=nc
I've had several bits of Chinese kit with 220v mains transformers and have no horror stories to tell. Still use a Chinese dac and had for ten years. Have a Chinese valve amp that John Howes modified to run in triode mode and he said he couldn't buy the components for what I paid for the built amp.

[Macca]

I've had several bits of Chinese kit with 220v mains transformers and have no horror stories to tell. Still use a Chinese dac and had for ten years. Have a Chinese valve amp that John Howes modified to run in triode mode and he said he couldn't buy the components for what I paid for the built amp.

It is something that is worth being careful about though, One minute the amp is on fire, then the carpet. Then you realise you should have bought that CO2 extinguisher when you considered but rejected the idea some months previously. Then you call the Fire Brigade, and big, capable men come round and sort out what you should really have not let happen in the first place.

If you have a wife and or daughters present even worse; your male role model status takes a bashing. Regardless, they will still be patronising to you in a friendly, blokey way. Then you find that after paying the excess, the payout from the insurance company, if you get one at all, is way less than you have paid in premiums.

In short, worth making very sure it is all UK spec,

[walpurgis]

Nah. Sprinkler system and you're sorted. :D

[struth]

If you have a mains regenerator it puts out 230 v so wouldn't be much of a stretch for a 220 system. Only 5%

[Yomanze]

I wouldn’t risk it myself. Could have fake caps, and a component is the sum of its parts including layout / grounding, so it wouldn’t sound the same...

[walpurgis]

I've had loads of Chinese electronics. Never had a problem. I've just been using a Chinese Tripath amp I bought about fifteen years ago. That still works like new.

[Primalsea]

They can work very well and be of decent quality. OK if you are happy to take a punt, but I imagine there are a few stinkers out there. I saw a JLH amp kit on Ebay a while ago that had new Motorola transistors, which is quite amazing as Motorola have not made any for many years.

It may be fine, but you don’t really know what you are getting. My mains is 242VAC so I am a little reluctant to use something that could potentially be suited for 220v - 230v, but I have in the past though.

[RothwellAudio]

China is a big place and many of the well-respected brands that most people would have confidence in have their stuff made in China. Being made in China isn't a problem per se, but copies of anything make alarm bells ring for me. Firstly, they're trading on the brand credibility that other manufacturers have created over many years, and that makes me suspicious about their integrity. Secondly, are they making accurate clones anyway? Even a mis-routed earth wire can ruin a circuit's performance, even though the circuit still works and the unwary may not realise it's compromised.
I'd rather buy something from someone who has enough faith in their own skill as a designer to make an original product and put their own name on it, whether they're in China or not.

Having said all that, some stuff from China is so cheap that worth buying just to cannibalise for parts.

[Barry]

Good post Andrew.

The Chinese pay no respect to patents, or to the hard work other manufacturers have made in developing their designs, which are then copied without concern.

And, as you have pointed out, the copied PCBs may contain errors in layout which compromises sound quality. 'Clones' of the Quad 405 PCBs are a specific example which come to mind.

[paulf-2007]

I wouldn’t risk it myself. Could have fake caps, and a component is the sum of its parts including layout / grounding, so it wouldn’t sound the same...
Fake caps? :lol:

[Yomanze]

Fake caps? :lol:

http://www.discovercircuits.com/dc-mag/Issue_4/Photos/FakeCapacitor1.jpg

[Barry]

http://www.discovercircuits.com/dc-mag/Issue_4/Photos/FakeCapacitor1.jpg

:eek: Is that a genuine 'con', or has someone cobbled it together as a joke? Hard to imagine why anyone would go to all the trouble of hiding an inferior-spec'd capacitor within the empty can of a better one.

[walpurgis]

Those are real caps. In a fake can though. ;)

Are you sure that's a genuine photo of the contents? I mean looking at the values, those wouldn't even measure right, so you'd be hard put to fool anybody.

[Yomanze]

I think we need to be mindful that some of the finest hardware in the world is made in China, but that there is a huge fake components issue too. When I see almost impossibly priced gear it does make me think.

[Ali Tait]

Fake caps? :lol:

Loads of fake components of all kinds around. Caps, resistors, op-amps etc etc.

[wee tee cee]

The automotive and aeronautical industry have had huge problems with fake parts.

Brake pads made out of compressed dried grass!!!!

Bearings made of shit getting put into safety critical components on passenger planes!!

Not good.

My wife bought a door handle the other day at b&q the screws were made of cheese- they chewed just by staring at them!

[RothwellAudio]

... those wouldn't even measure right, so you'd be hard put to fool anybody.

How many people measure capacitors before using them? And how is it even possible to do a non-destructive test of voltage rating? Those fakes - if they're "genuine" fakes (if you get my meaning) - could be dangerous.

[walpurgis]

How many people measure capacitors before using them?

I do.

[RothwellAudio]

I do.

And do you test the voltage rating?

[walpurgis]

Nope.

[hifi_dave]

:eek: Is that a genuine 'con', or has someone cobbled it together as a joke? Hard to imagine why anyone would go to all the trouble of hiding an inferior-spec'd capacitor within the empty can of a better one.

Love that pic, though I doubt it would fool anyone because of the different values and to go to the trouble of buying cans and jigging it together with the shrink sleeve etc, is a bit unlikely. IMO. It was originally posted to rubbish Quad amps, suggesting that was standard Quad build quality.

[RothwellAudio]

Nope.
So, you're only half-testing them, and not for the bit that applies to safety.

Love that pic, though I doubt it would fool anyone because of the different values and to go to the trouble of buying cans and jigging it together with the shrink sleeve etc, is a bit unlikely. IMO. It was originally posted to rubbish Quad amps.
I think they would fool plenty of people. One person has declared they measure caps before using them, but doesn't measure the voltage rating. There are seven billion more people on the planet.

Yes, I agree, it does look like a lot of trouble to go to just to fake a component that isn't terribly expensive to start with. Probably a fake fake. :lol:

[Haselsh1]

Pretty much like most of us I can only speak from personal experience of Chinese gear. In 2006 I imported a Yarland Pro 200 SE amplifier at a cost of around £450 which appeared really good value. The amp was a 300B single ended integrated weighing in at around 28kg so when I first lifted it I was impressed by the sheer solidity of the thing. Sound quality was stunning and very 'single ended' as you would expect. Also, the sound had every hallmark of the 300B valve.
After about two years of very occasional use the 300B's developed blue flashes and cracking sounds on power up. I had a friend of mine check it over in his work shop only to find that all of the internal voltages were all over the place and way higher than they should be. I informed my friend that I had bought the 230V version to which he informed that I very definitely hadn't. I eventually passed it on for 60 quid to someone as a bare bones project. It has not put me off valves, it simply never would but it did put me off cheap electronics that are just not compatible with our UK mains supply. It also made me very wary of CE stickers.

[Macca]

My experience is forever clouded from listening to a system with a 20 grand front end and some very good speakers (all of which I had heard before) powered by a Chinese made valve amp. It was so bad it was shocking. Now before anyone writes in, I know not all Chinese valve amps sound rubbish, but this one was exceptionally poor and personally put me off. It did look the business with big transformers.

if you are on a budget you are better to buy something that is a known quantity on the used market than take a chance, no matter how good the deal looks. Or if you must have a punt, and I admit it is tempting, when it arrives take the amp to a qualified EE and get him to check it before you even plug it in.

[struth]

Yes you get good and bad but I would run them off 230v

[sq225917]

The Chinese are capable of making the best and worst of things, not so great yet at designing them though. A brand made for the international market is likely to beat some no mark ebay clone. I steer clear of clones purely on moral grounds. Take all the pass labs clones. Nelson makes circuits available to the diy community, as a gift, and Chinese vendors then take these none commercial use designs and sell them on open market. That risks future developments and devalues Nelson's work. Pretty shady. I won't buy that like I don't use Amazon.

[prestonchipfryer]

Why would anyone want to support blatant rip-off merchants buying, potentially lethal, electronic goods. Makes no sense and harms the genuine items. :(

[Pharos]

You touch on a point that I wanted to make Simon.

Not about electronics or audio, but about Chinese engineering. On the TV or radio someone stated that the Chinese engineer either really well or really poorly.

I have just built up a bike with the best of the world's parts, all silver and as rust proof as possible. To that end I have a pair of Chinese titanium forks and a titanium stem, and I am terrified that either of them will break and I will lose my mouth/face.

[anubisgrau]

Line Magnetic stuff is excellent.

[Ninanina]

I've owned a couple of Chinese amps. The first was a Ming DA MC34 and then a Yaqin Mc-100b

For the little outlay both amps were amazing but they did not spend very long with me

I can't quite put my finger on why that was but neither amp quite 'gelled' with me. However both amps were amazing value and I have no idea how they can produce them for the money.. ;)

[Haselsh1]

Another point regarding the Yarland Pro 200 SE was that it was clearly advertised as hard wired and dual mono. A clearly blatant lie. It had a rather large circuit board inside and was in no way dual mono.

[User211]

Doge and Cayin make good stuff.

I prefer my Cayin preamp to the EAR 868PL I used to own. Whilst it has some strange looking parts inside in terms of unrecognisable caps it sounds fabulous.

That said, at least it isn't full of Radio Spares components a la TDP. And it is built like a battleship. Looks like an amp, not a preamp. I have had it a long time and I doubt I will change it anytime soon.

At TDPs price level I'd expect Jupiters and Duelands at least in critical parts. But no.

Sorry for the dig Mr TDP but hey. I think it is a fair point.

[montesquieu]

This discussion is prone to sweeping generalisations. A lot of high end kit from big name brands is made in China these days. A lot of high end components are made there too, or in Taiwain where many of the higher-end manufacturing capabilities still sit.

A lot of impressions formed 20 and 15 and even 10 years ago simply don't apply any more.

Yes you have to be wary of fakes and if it looks too good to be true then it probably is. But personally I've had some great Chinese stuff (always checking the voltage is correct, it's a no-no if it isn't) and frankly the availability of it is one of the things that has driven the revival the whole valve component scene, as it has enabled people to try things out and get a flavour before getting all spendy.

Chinese attitudes towards IP remain suspect, but I find the Nelson Pass thing interesting. Williamson published his designs and commentary free to everybody, and look what happened - even today the majority of valve amps out there are still Williamson designs, with various degrees of innovation applied to the concept. Nelson Pass has essentially done the same thing with his lower power FET designs (not, it has to be noted, his big bucks Pass branded gear that brings in the cash, nor should that be expected), and again enthusiasts and commercial concerns alike have taken these ideas and played with them, though without the blessing that Williamson gave for commercial endeavours.

But in the real world surely this is inevitable? If circuits for EAR and JLH and First Watt components are out there, it's a certainty that someone is going to take advantage of that.

[paulf-2007]

You touch on a point that I wanted to make Simon.

Not about electronics or audio, but about Chinese engineering. On the TV or radio someone stated that the Chinese engineer either really well or really poorly.

I have just built up a bike with the best of the world's parts, all silver and as rust proof as possible. To that end I have a pair of Chinese titanium forks and a titanium stem, and I am terrified that either of them will break and I will lose my mouth/face.
I watched fake Britain and a fella bought carbon handlebars by a well known well regarded Italian company from eBay. The bars snapped and he was fortunate not to be seriously injured. He contacted the manufacturer who inspected them and said they were not made by them but were fake. I don't know the answer about what or where to buy, but your Chinese titanium parts are not trying to be something they are not and are probably no less dangerous than some top branded fakes.
I once bought some titanium mountain bike handlebars from the USA, first ride I fell and bent them double, they are paper thin and I don't understand why, they are lighter than aluminum anyway so a little more thickness wouldn't make much difference. On critical components I would go for strength over lightness and keep your teeth

[Haselsh1]

A lot of impressions formed 20 and 15 and even 10 years ago simply don't apply any more.

Quite possibly true but impressions inevitably lead to a reputation and in this case a rather bad one.

[Barry]

I think there is a big difference between Chinese designed and built items, and those designed by reputable well-known European, US or Japanese manufacturers that are assembled in China. It all comes down to the quality control applied in each of the two cases.

Based on my experience with region-free DVD players, all the Chinese products I tried regularly failed after about 18 months. However my current player was made in Taiwan for Toshiba and remains fault free after 10 years of use.

[Macca]

Taiwan has always been a different ballgame though. We're talking about mainland China or 'Red' China or whatever it is nowdays.

[Barry]

Taiwan has always been a different ballgame though. We're talking about mainland China or 'Red' China or whatever it is nowadays.

Yes - when I see "Made in China" or "Made in PRC" printed on the label, my heart sinks. The trouble is so much stuff is now made there. Try buying an electric kettle, microwave oven or power tools - regardless of make: Russell Hobbs, Philips, Kenwood, Bosch, .... they are all made in China. :steam:

[helma]

Well, some of the clones look interesting. I agree blatantly ripping off a design is a bit suspect, in some cases more so than in others. I'd cut them some slack though... like I don't see much harm in ripping off a design from a product that hasn't been made for 10+ years. In some cases it's practically more about DIY enabling than ripping off :) But then there are products like some of the EAR 834P fakes, which I hear have even EAR engraved on the front plate, but in the versions they sell in eBay they have covered it with some copper tape. That's a currently available product and they ask something like $400 for the fake, which while still significantly cheaper than the original is getting into the territory where you could probably buy all the parts from known suppliers and build one yourself. Which I incidently take to mean they make a hefty profit on it, unless they actually use genuine premium parts. But then even in the case of EAR, if the fake costs $400 and the original retails for 5-6 times the price, are they really competing with the original? I have a hard time imagining a buyer prepared to pay 2000+ for a phono stage will suddenly go "oh well, I'll take the Chinese fake instead" - then again, someone who is willing to invest $500 might pick the Ear clone over some similarly priced original design by a legit manufacturer...

On the other hand being a cheapskate and liking a bit of DIY, I love having these clones around, but I'd treat even the preassembled ones as preassembled DIY-kits, meaning you'll have to go over them which is no big deal if you plan to replace some parts anyway. Also I wouldn't trust the parts, fake parts are a very real issue and I've even heard of some fakes making it all the way through to retailers like Mouser and Digikey at times, though I imagine that must be pretty rare and this is only some hearsay I read somewhere. So yeah, I feel there's more to this than "it's wrong", sometimes it clearly is but others I don't really see the harm. Should be judged case by case, just like with the quality.

Speaking of clones, what other interesting phono stages are out there besides the 834 clone? I see at least some which are supposed to be old Naim designs, but no idea of the quality or if those were worth cloning in the first place? Seems like fairly simple discrete solid state affairs, so the design is probably not that special to begin with and it was all in the execution, or so I would guess. Then again if it's a good circuit I wouldn't mind spending another 20-30 euros or so on some better parts to upgrade it. I'm having an itch both for a new phono stage and for some DIY fiddling, so I've been looking at both recognized well made kits and some Chinese stuff that might be a good platform to experiment and improve upon. In similar vein I was also thinking of a TCC TC-750, I'd have a better power supply already at hand and then I could just keep throwing money at the simple box to see how good it can get. Some people seem to say very good, while others are not that impressed with the design. It's a very simple affair, AFAIK 3-transistors per channel so state of the art it is not, but might be interesting.

[sq225917]

Pharos, i have some experience with chinese/taiwanese titanium frames, we sell about 1500 a year. If the welds look good, and it's not checmical gas grade pipe you should be ok. I've been to a lot of vendors and quality varies hugely. Those who do full argon purge and double pass welds, then apply the correct heat treatment are few and far between.

[paulf-2007]

We are all to blame for wanting cheap, so they sell us cheap. My daughter has lived in Beijing for eleven years, so I've seen it change massively in that time. Their underground and rail systems leave us looking like a third world country. Eleven years ago there were thousands of bicycles where my daughter lives and now the area in the middle of the apartment blocks is filled with new cars. People delivering stuff on flat bed pedal driven vehicles are all electric as are all the motor scooters. Down the road at the shopping centre I regularly see several Bentley continental coupes and porsche's. Before I visited China I believed that the communist state owned everything, but now that I have family there I know different. Even during the cultural revolution my son in laws family owned property and still do. People in the west are fed propaganda just like anywhere else. It sickens me the ignorance in the west.

[montesquieu]

We are all to blame for wanting cheap, so they sell us cheap. My daughter has lived in Beijing for eleven years, so I've seen it change massively in that time. Their underground and rail systems leave us looking like a third world country. Eleven years ago there were thousands of bicycles where my daughter lives and now the area in the middle of the apartment blocks is filled with new cars. People delivering stuff on flat bed pedal driven vehicles are all electric as are all the motor scooters. Down the road at the shopping centre I regularly see several Bentley continental coupes and porsche's. Before I visited China I believed that the communist state owned everything, but now that I have family there I know different. Even during the cultural revolution my son in laws family owned property and still do. People in the west are fed propaganda just like anywhere else. It sickens me the ignorance in the west.

The biggest ignorance about China is among Chinese people, all sorts of search terms are banned, indeed their whole understanding of history has been deeply warped and politicised, you can see it clearly when kids come to Uni here, most are far too scared to get engaged in any sort of political discussion.

Even a lot of mainland Chinese academics working in the UK for some time can be incredibly naive - or disingenuous - in their engagement on topic around the CCP or what it gets up to. Either the brainwashing they get from toddler stage runs very deep, or they are deeply terrified of the consequences of being on the wrong side of the regime (I suspect a bit of both). (We have mainland academics round all the time and sometimes they talk like they think there's a recording device switched on).

I've spent a fair amount of time in China too, though rather more in Taiwan, and the latter, though Chinese-speaking I feel is culturally far closer to Japan in all sorts of ways - as you would expect from a place that has had a separate history from the Mainland pretty much continuously for 127 years now. The Cultural Revolution all but destoyed traditional Buddhist and Taoist religious practice on the mainland, which together with the doggedly anti-religious CCP has resulted in a dead-eyed populace of 1.3bn in thrall to mass consumerism and technology (I know you can see that here too but it really **is** far worse in China).

The contrast with both Japan and Taiwan where religious belief or at least religious practice (of the sort an Italian or Irish catholic would be familiar with, until relatively recently anyway) underpins a sense of cultural and moral continuity is highly instructive.

Does a nation need a moral centre to be successful? I guess time will tell.

[paulf-2007]

Religion is making a comeback Tom, I'm not getting into a political discussion here.

[montesquieu]

Religion is making a comeback Tom, I'm not getting into a political discussion here.

Only state-sanctioned varieties have an easy ride. As I'm sure you are aware.

[paulf-2007]

Only state-sanctioned varieties have an easy ride. As I'm sure you are aware.
That's better than our own situation

[montesquieu]

That's better than our own situation

If you believe that there is more religious freedom in China than here then you clearly know absolutely nothing about the subject.

[paulf-2007]

If you believe that there is more religious freedom in China than here then you clearly know absolutely nothing about the subject.
Religious freedom is the problem we have is that good?

[struth]

People don't understand lack of freedom on basic rights until they lose them. We should fight to preserve them no matter the cost

[montesquieu]

Religious freedom is the problem we have is that good?

So you are happy with the Chinese regime bulldozing churches by the dozen, in some cases with people inside. as has been increasingly frequent since Xi came to power five years ago?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/11/chinese-authorities-demolish-christian-church/

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/woman-bulldozed-to-death-in-china-signals-new-wave-of-oppression-21809

There is (needless to say) a political backdrop to this:

https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/why-china-fears-christianity/

So it seems you are in good company with your fellow anti-religious bigots.

[paulf-2007]

So you are happy with the Chinese regime bulldozing churches by the dozen, in some cases with people inside. as has been increasingly frequent since Xi came to power five years ago?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/11/chinese-authorities-demolish-christian-church/

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/woman-bulldozed-to-death-in-china-signals-new-wave-of-oppression-21809

There is (needless to say) a political backdrop to this:

https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/why-china-fears-christianity/

So it seems you are in good company with your fellow anti-religious bigots.i replied to your pm and that's my last word on it. Politics is bullshit you are welcome to it

[Minstrel SE]

I have mixed feelings. If you all said thare is an amazing class A to D amp, valve amp or DAC for a good price I would consider it.

I own two Huawei Phones which are fine buys. I also have a fiio mini headphone amplifier which is a fine product

I just have that general feeling that they will copy anything in half a day and certain areas are dodgy. That may be unfair but I like relating to a UK company. Then again most stuff seems to be made in China anyway including all the components so It gets confusing just how much of a British product Im getting.

Overall I still find that Chinese Hi fi sector a bit distasteful like the British boffins do it better.....but do they really?

[sumday]

One thing to bear in mind if you do go Chi fi, factor in the cost of replacing the stock tubes.
The ones supplied can best be thought of in the same manner as cheapie interconnects bundled with yer standard euro/jap kit.

Last year I took the plunge into tube amplification with a Little Dot Headphone/Preamp from Amazon.
The supplied tubes got me up and running but the sound was a little vague...even after a good burn in.

A matched set of of tubes from Watford Valves really lifted the performance to another level.
For under 180 pounds (the replacements were 40 quid delivered), as a introduction to tubes its a steal.

[Lawrence001]

I have enjoyed my Opera Consonance M100SE EL34 amp for many years. I imagine the previous owner did too but I never met him. It would rival any western competitor at 1.5-2x the price. I also liked my Yarland FV34B mk 2 or 3, which had clarity caps etc in, but the mkV seemed to be a more price conscious design, so I accept Yarland are of variable quality.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[Wakefield Turntables]

Interesting debate so far. In the previous century DIY audio was the forward where people would often build their own amps. Perhaps the clone PCB's could be ushering in a new breed of DIY fans that are happy to tweak with parts bought from the UK? That's whats certainly happened with myself. This also gets over the problem of FAKE parts.

[Barry]

Interesting debate so far. In the previous century DIY audio was the forward where people would often build their own amps. Perhaps the clone PCB's could be ushering in a new breed of DIY fans that are happy to tweak with parts bought from the UK? That's whats certainly happened with myself. This also gets over the problem of FAKE parts.

But what if the 'cloned' PCBs themselves contain errors, such as the afore cited Quad 405 PCB copies?

[Wakefield Turntables]

But what if the 'cloned' PCBs themselves contain errors, such as the afore cited Quad 405 PCB copies?

I would say buyer beware. If I'm not sure I employ people who are qualified and skilled to recognise, and discuss such problems.

[smithie]

im glad they have started producing decent hifi enclosures,even if some are direct rip off clones of famous amps:D
ive brought some smaller ones and they have been brill for my projects and pretty well made.
i just wish they would turn there hand to making fancy decent front and back panels with all the various cut outs and screen printing done,,,,be cheaper to import for a start and alot more help for finishing a project where you don't want to use the standard style alloy box....but hey,thats me:D
had some mingda 845 mono blocks and preamp for around 8 years and they rocked and where faultless...there's good and bad everywhere,just choose wisely grasshopper:cool: