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Jimbo
18-01-2018, 20:45
Sounding superb tonight. This combination on the VPI 9t tonearm sounds very good indeed. More fleshed out and analogue sounding than the 2M. 2M sounds a bit etched and edgy in comparison.

Lucky to get one of the last boron micro ridge cantilevered SAS stylus.

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brian2957
18-01-2018, 20:49
James , I heard this cartridge on your GL75 when I paid you a visit this time last year if I remember correctly . It sounded fantastic on the stock GL75 . I would have loved to have heard it on your VPI turntable :)

Jimbo
18-01-2018, 20:52
James , I heard this cartridge on your GL75 when I paid you a visit this time last year if I remember correctly . It sounded fantastic on the stock GL75 . I would have loved to have heard it on your VPI turntable :)

Hi mate, quite simply its on another level on the VPI. You can imagine...:)

brian2957
18-01-2018, 20:54
Yup . Will it be stating on the VPI for a while then ?

Jimbo
18-01-2018, 20:56
Yup . Will it be stating on the VPI for a while then ?

Definitely. It will be here for a few weeks at least until something very special turns up!:eyebrows:

brian2957
18-01-2018, 20:59
Oooh...You been spending your money James :D

struth
18-01-2018, 21:00
Thats what's on mine

Jimbo
18-01-2018, 21:01
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Wakefield Turntables
18-01-2018, 21:02
Didn't we discuss the hell out of this combo some time ago? All I can say is that I have Neo SAS/S variant strapped to my '55 and it aint goin' nowhere!

Jimbo
18-01-2018, 21:04
Didn't we discuss the hell out of this combo some time ago? All I can say is that I have Neo SAS/S variant strapped to my '55 and it aint goin' nowhere!

We did Andy, just reacquainting myself with some old friends!:)

Is your sapphire or ruby cantilever?

Jimbo
18-01-2018, 21:05
Oooh...You been spending your money James :D

Not just yet but maybe soon:D

Wakefield Turntables
18-01-2018, 21:05
Sapphire.

Wakefield Turntables
18-01-2018, 21:08
Here's some info. The Ruby (Neo SAS/R) is supposed to be the best of the bunch.

https://www.jico-stylus.com/neosas.php

Jimbo
18-01-2018, 21:09
Here's some info. The Ruby (Neo SAS/R) is supposed to be the best of the bunch.

https://www.jico-stylus.com/neosas.php

How does it compare to your old SAS?

Wakefield Turntables
18-01-2018, 21:12
I've just sold the old one. It's night and day honestly. I've not tinkered with my '75 for some time but I can't see myself ever wanting another MM. It's very very good and gives some MC carts approaching £1K a VERY good run for their money! :wowzer:

Wakefield Turntables
18-01-2018, 21:13
I'd like to try the NEO SAS/R and very very nearly ordered one but they have stopped production until they catch up with orders.

Jimbo
18-01-2018, 21:16
I'd like to try the NEO SAS/R and very very nearly ordered one but they have stopped production until they catch up with orders.

I thought something had happened as they disappeared off the site when I last looked. I agree many MC cartridges would struggle to give you this amount of musical satisfaction.

Jimbo
19-01-2018, 10:11
I've just sold the old one. It's night and day honestly. I've not tinkered with my '75 for some time but I can't see myself ever wanting another MM. It's very very good and gives some MC carts approaching £1K a VERY good run for their money! :wowzer:

There was some chat on other forums suggesting the new SAS were not as good as the old but you suggest otherwise? I would be interested in hearing the Ruby but I think it was rather expensive (£400?)

CageyH
19-01-2018, 11:07
I would be interested to know how this campares to the EPC-205 with a NEO SAS in your opinion.
I only have the M55 with the SAS so comparing it to my 205 NEO isn’t the same.

By the time you add importation charges, the SAS are expensive.

Wakefield Turntables
19-01-2018, 13:36
There was some chat on other forums suggesting the new SAS were not as good as the old but you suggest otherwise? I would be interested in hearing the Ruby but I think it was rather expensive (£400?)

Never heard the old sad so can't comment on the old ones I must say that the prices of the old sad stock had started to rise and to some extent had put me off looking for one. I didn't realize the ruby cost £40

Jimbo
20-01-2018, 10:38
Listening last night to the M55e and I thought something had happened to my hearing! It sounded awful, dull and flat so I wondered what had changed.
Decided to check everything and found my Stylus Overhang was way out, so somehow the whole cartridge had slipped back in the headshell probably due to loose nuts!:eek: Reset all parameters again but very tricky getting the nuts to stay tight even with washers.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4720/28014947309_4ca4258112_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/JFzVNV)IMG_0003 (https://flic.kr/p/JFzVNV) by [/url], on Flickr

Set up overhang with the excellent VPI Jig
[url=https://flic.kr/p/23zCJeG]https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4761/39762016562_d6be78fc61_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)IMG_0005 (https://flic.kr/p/23zCJeG) by , on Flickr

This got me bang on and the difference was astounding! I would suggest that this technical aspect of cartridge set up is more influential on the sound than any other by far.

The sound quality from this cartridge is now exceeding the 2M Black and indeed any other MM I have heard. The bass was fuller and more extended than the 2M by some margin. I put this down to the M55e engine and the Boron cantilever? Detail was excellent and not in your face as the 2M. Only one area was slightly lacking and this was a tiny bit of air which I can certainly live with. Tonal quality is by far the best aspect of the M55e /Jico SAS. Instruments are fully fleshed out as are vocals which take on a fabulous presence.

Marco you were right when I first tried this combination way back. The NOS M55e with its original stylus gives a great full musical easy to listen too sound. With the Jico SAS the combination is stunning with a level of performance I have yet to hear bettered in my system.

When the stylus does eventually wear out I may buy the new Ruby SAS to replace it as I believe this could raise the bar higher.:)

brian2957
20-01-2018, 11:12
Well the 2M Black sounded excellent when I heard it last year , so the M55e must be very good indeed James :)

Jimbo
20-01-2018, 11:44
Well the 2M Black sounded excellent when I heard it last year , so the M55e must be very good indeed James :)

I had never set the M55e up properly on the VPI as it was intended for the Lenco GL75 which you heard Brian. It sounds like a very different cartridge on the VPI, much more full range, deeper and darker with fuller tonal qualities. As much as I like the 2M it does sound a bit thin and lean compare to the Shure / Jico combination.

Jimbo
20-01-2018, 12:12
Jico have put a notice out stating that they are inundated with orders for the neo SAS stylus and cannot receive orders at the moment.

Not surprised.:D

struth
20-01-2018, 12:16
Not sure which one mine is

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180120/55ed300383ea02c8c7b8579da9e6e43c.jpg

CageyH
20-01-2018, 12:17
Looks like the pre-neo one (the same as mine).
When did you buy it?

struth
20-01-2018, 12:20
got it off someone here with low hrs.. just been reading the green booklet and it says it has a boron cantilever and diamond tip

CageyH
20-01-2018, 12:21
It's a SAS and not a NEO SAS, as they are sapphire or ruby.

struth
20-01-2018, 12:24
It's a SAS and not a NEO SAS, as they are sapphire or ruby.

ah, ok, thanks Kevin. sounds very good on my jbe anyway(using 1.1g). ive got another original one with nos stylus too which is great also although different.

Jimbo
20-01-2018, 12:25
Yes this is the same as mine - Boron cantilever and Micro ridge stylus. As I mentioned before, not sure if the Sapphire or Ruby sound better?

Marco
20-01-2018, 14:02
Marco you were right when I first tried this combination way back. The NOS M55e with its original stylus gives a great full musical easy to listen too sound. With the Jico SAS the combination is stunning with a level of performance I have yet to hear bettered in my system.


Great stuff, Jim. Turntables and cartridges is an area I do have considerable experience in, so it's good to see some of the recommendations I've given to people working out, indeed as was also evidenced recently with Jamie's 103SA :)

If you can get your head around the concept of marrying the BEST vintage gear, with the BEST of modern technology [and the whole 'SPPV thing'], and forget about any notion of 'newest always being best' (as it really is a false notion), then not only will you have a fantastic component, but will stand a great chance of creating a fabulous system, if you can extend the same thinking into a wider context.

That's what you've successfully achieved with your M55; the whole principle upon which my own system is based, and one of the reasons why it's given me such great musical satisfaction over such a long period of time! :cool:

It's honestly a great recipe for banishing box-swapping and 'fretting over sound', and just getting down and enjoying the music, which after all is what it ultimately should be about...

Marco.

cuddles
20-01-2018, 20:03
ah, ok, thanks Kevin. sounds very good on my jbe anyway(using 1.1g). ive got another original one with nos stylus too which is great also although different.

That was mine ;). I can confirm it was bought just before they discontinued the original run. Reading this thread makes me think I should have hung on to it a bit longer but I'm glad Grant is happy with it. In my set up I couldn't seem to get it to better my Shure M75 with a Jico HE stylus - I compared and contrasted for a few months and in the end I had to trust my ears.

struth
20-01-2018, 20:45
That was mine ;). I can confirm it was bought just before they discontinued the original run. Reading this thread makes me think I should have hung on to it a bit longer but I'm glad Grant is happy with it. In my set up I couldn't seem to get it to better my Shure M75 with a Jico HE stylus - I compared and contrasted for a few months and in the end I had to trust my ears.

Set up is a. It mite critical especially the vtf headshelI level think. The. Cantilever is damn near invisible lol. Sounds good now

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 09:49
These nuts are driving me nuts as I can't seem to get them quite tight enough. Anyone know of a small tool that can be used for this size nut. i have been using narrow nose pliers and they are not the best tool to use.:roll eyes:
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4755/38913045245_d8bcb3caab_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22hBwDc)IMG_0001 (https://flic.kr/p/22hBwDc) by , on Flickr

CageyH
21-01-2018, 09:54
You can get spanners and sockets in that size.
If you have a look at tools for modelling, such as RC cars and helicopters you can get what they call nut drivers.
You just need to know what size nuts you have.

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 10:03
Thanks Kevin, any idea what size these nuts are typically?

walpurgis
21-01-2018, 10:06
M2.5 size

Never overtighten. I've seen several cartridges damaged by this.

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 10:08
M2.5 size

Never overtighten. I've seen several cartridges damaged by this.

Do you use washers with your nuts?

walpurgis
21-01-2018, 10:09
Do you use washers with your nuts?

Yes. Nylon ones to avoid marking the headshell.

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 10:10
Yes. Nylon ones to avoid marking the headshell.

I expect they give better grip too. I am using steel washers so that maybe my problem?

CageyH
21-01-2018, 10:18
M2.5 size

Never overtighten. I've seen several cartridges damaged by this.

If it is an M2.5 nut, it should be 5mm across the flats, so something like this will be good https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wera-Kraftform-395-Nutspinner-Mm/dp/B0001P1800/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1516529834&sr=8-1&keywords=5mm+nut+driver

CageyH
21-01-2018, 10:20
I expect they give better grip too. I am using steel washers so that maybe my problem?

They should not need to be really tight.
M2.5 nylon washers are dirt cheap, so it could be worth picking a few up.

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 10:21
They should not need to be really tight.
M2.5 nylon washers are dirt cheap, so it could be worth picking a few up.

Cheers Kev,
to be sure I have bought these
https://www.amazon.co.uk/driver-small-sizes-1-5mm-engineer/dp/B000W9N34Y/ref=pd_ybh_a_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=PG47T5K9M54ESTZNZK9R

CageyH
21-01-2018, 10:25
Just remember that M2.5 has a torque requirement of 1.43 Nm, which is not very much at all....

walpurgis
21-01-2018, 10:28
Those are socket head drivers that you've ordered, like allen keys, not spanners, they won't tighten nuts. The link you were shown was the correct item. Unless you really want socket head drivers, cancel the order and get something else.

CageyH
21-01-2018, 10:39
Well spotted Geoff.

walpurgis
21-01-2018, 10:40
This: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BERGEN-Tools-10pc-Mini-Metric-Combination-Spanner-Spanners-Set-4-11mm-BER-1981/172848814254?hash=item283e9798ae:g:6a8AAOSw43hZ-dJx

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 10:46
This: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BERGEN-Tools-10pc-Mini-Metric-Combination-Spanner-Spanners-Set-4-11mm-BER-1981/172848814254?hash=item283e9798ae:g:6a8AAOSw43hZ-dJx


cheers Geoff, order cancelled and I will order the Bergen spanners.

walpurgis
21-01-2018, 10:52
I take it you have allen keys to hold the bolt heads still as you tighten the nuts? Assuming of course that they are socket head bolts.

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 11:11
I take it you have allen keys to hold the bolt heads still as you tighten the nuts? Assuming of course that they are socket head bolts.

I have allen keys. I think I will get a better feeling for torque using the spanners as I agree I don't want to tighten the nuts too tight.

Bloody fiddly process with my fat fingers!

karma67
21-01-2018, 11:17
just use a 5mm socket and tighten with your hand,not a ratchet. thats all i do.

karma67
21-01-2018, 11:21
Great stuff, Jim. Turntables and cartridges is an area I do have considerable experience in, so it's good to see some of the recommendations I've given to people working out, indeed as was also evidenced recently with Jamie's 103SA :)
Marco.
yes im very happy with your advice mate,im enjoying the guided journey,each step is an improvement. :cool:

struth
21-01-2018, 11:23
usually hold nut with a finger and tighten top with an allen key. prefer them on a driver for single handed use. i dont tighten them much;just enough to stop cart moving. removable headshells are a must for me

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 13:08
As you can see from my photo the nuts are on top and the bolt has an allen key head on the bottom. Nice and easy to hold allen key steady on bottom and hopefully nip up nuts with mini spanner.

I have often wondered which way the bolts for cartridges should be used, nuts on top or nuts on bottom, but searching round the net it matters not. Depends on cartridge design essentially.

I much prefer pre threaded modern cartridges.

struth
21-01-2018, 13:28
Yup I'm as per usual doing it the other way to everyone. A trait I guess. Lol

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/61424b8665b2159de2c0724345d7bfbd.jpg

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 13:33
Haha:)

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 13:42
I have often used different bolts in the past, usually to add more or less mass to the cartridge. I have now read a post on vinyl engine which suggests that changing the headshell/cartridge bolts which have a different mass actually changes the resonant frequency of the cartridge which I presume is a little like changing the material of the cartridge body.

So in effect you can change the sound of the cartridge by using different bolts! Interesting?

Wakefield Turntables
21-01-2018, 14:34
You could change the sound of your cart by changing the bolts I suppose but I think the changes would be so small as not be to be heard. Personally I'd be more worried about using magnetic bolts near the cartridge.

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 16:20
Apparently the M55e is almost carbon copy of the Shure V15 but built under normal quality control and with a different body but its electrical performance was nearly identical. The V15 had a reputation for thunderous bass and big soundstage which is what I have noticed with the M55e. It has some balls in this department and really does give me quite a lot more bottom end. I would say it is a tad fuller with the standard stylus than the Jico SAS although the SAS is better controlled and articulated.

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 18:23
Geoff, can you point me in the right direction for some nylon washers. Cartridge moved again and I think the steel washers aren't helping.:(

CageyH
21-01-2018, 18:29
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NYLON-WASHERS-FORM-A-FLAT-PLASTIC-WASHER-M2-5-M3-M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-M12-M16-M20/181905003668?hash=item2a5a621494:m:mV6BJ_h_Yhwgee5 AlbiDksw

Barry
21-01-2018, 18:54
You could change the sound of your cart by changing the bolts I suppose but I think the changes would be so small as not be to be heard. Personally I'd be more worried about using magnetic bolts near the cartridge.

Agreed. You should never use plain steel cartridge fixings because, as you rightly point out, they are permeable and hence could affect the magnetic circuit within the cartridge. Only use aluminium, carbon fibre or stainless steel fixings (and for the latter it has to be the right grade; not all grades of stainless steel are non-magnetic).

I prefer to use aluminium fixings as I'm not a follower of the Linn school of thought which is to "tighten things up until the thread strips and then slacken off by a quarter turn". Also, I'm not adverse to using hard nylon washers under the screw/bolt heads (or nuts, if you invert the fixings).

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 19:14
Agreed. You should never use plain steel cartridge fixings because, as you rightly point out, they are permeable and hence could affect the magnetic circuit within the cartridge. Only use aluminium, carbon fibre or stainless steel fixings (and for the latter it has to be the right grade; not all grades of stainless steel are non-magnetic).

I prefer to use aluminium fixings as I'm not a follower of the Linn school of thought which is to "tighten things up until the thread strips and then slacken off by a quarter turn". Also, I'm not adverse to using hard nylon washers under the screw/bolt heads (or nuts, if you invert the fixings).

Thanks for the advice Barry, can you point me in the right direction for some of the aluminium fixings you mentioned? Ta

Jimbo
21-01-2018, 19:19
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NYLON-WASHERS-FORM-A-FLAT-PLASTIC-WASHER-M2-5-M3-M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-M12-M16-M20/181905003668?hash=item2a5a621494:m:mV6BJ_h_Yhwgee5 AlbiDksw

Thanks Kevin.
:cool:

Barry
21-01-2018, 20:06
Thanks for the advice Barry, can you point me in the right direction for some of the aluminium fixings you mentioned? Ta

Most of those that I have used came with the cartridge. However they are readily obtainable from the likes of ebay, such as: https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/12mm-Aluminium-Screws-Nuts-Record-Player-Cartridge-Fitting-Kit/5007404267?iid=362061330885&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%2 6asc%3D49131%26meid%3D550ba2c9ceda4954b8ed5a5ffc58 00a5%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D1118 87585173&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

or similar (i.e. a shorter or longer length).

kininigin
25-01-2018, 15:35
Sounding superb tonight. This combination on the VPI 9t tonearm sounds very good indeed. More fleshed out and analogue sounding than the 2M. 2M sounds a bit etched and edgy in comparison.

Lucky to get one of the last boron micro ridge cantilevered SAS stylus.

2252222523


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hi James glad you are enjoing the combo. Iv'e recently bought a neo sas for my Shure SC35C and am currently running it in. It's only done about 3hrs so far as iv'e been busy and on holiday but it sounds good so far. Although i think it still needs fleshing out a bit. How long did it take for yours to run in?

Jimbo
25-01-2018, 16:06
Hi James glad you are enjoing the combo. Iv'e recently bought a neo sas for my Shure SC35C and am currently running it in. It's only done about 3hrs so far as iv'e been busy and on holiday but it sounds good so far. Although i think it still needs fleshing out a bit. How long did it take for yours to run in?

I have used it for about 50 hours and it does seem to have changed a fair bit since I first used it. I would say it is indeed a fuller sound now, it was a bit lean when first installed.

I noticed on some jazz material trumpets and clarinets were a wee bit shrill but now they sound smoother and fleshed out with great tone. Plucked double bass and cellos sound more woody and fat.

kininigin
26-01-2018, 08:49
I have used it for about 50 hours and it does seem to have changed a fair bit since I first used it. I would say it is indeed a fuller sound now, it was a bit lean when first installed.

I noticed on some jazz material trumpets and clarinets were a wee bit shrill but now they sound smoother and fleshed out with great tone. Plucked double bass and cellos sound more woody and fat.

Yes this is what i'm noticing, so it's good to know that it will get a bit more meatier. I've added another couple another coupl of hours, so still a bit to go by the sounds of it.