Why is modern pop so terrible?

[montesquieu]

Don't know if this has been posted but while many of the themes will be familiar, it's interesting to see it all presented in one place:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVME_l4IwII

[walpurgis]

Modern pop is dire because in the words of Frank Zappa, it's 'Strictly Commercial'. So called 'artists' chosen for their looks and having no proper singing ability, let alone being capable of playing instruments or writing music. It's aimed at twelve year olds and dummies with no discernment.

[Blackdog]

Couldn't agree more Geoff. With modern technology any no talent can be made into a star as long as they look good. Auto-tune and digital processing can make any piece of crap sound good. Unfortunately you will hear the argument that we're just getting old and ever generation has its bad pop music. However, compare Justin Beiber to Bill Haley, or Buddy Holley and the argument doesn't hold up. I'm not calling Holley or Haley bad, but our parents probably did.
One other reason is also tech related. Back in the 50's and 60's you had radio (which is local) and you had touring. Those musicians had to do concert after concert to get heard. Today it's YouTube and shitty TV shows like American Idol or the Voice.
And one other thing. I'm ashamed that Justin Beiber is Canadian. He's an embarrassment to a lively and talented music scene.

[southall-1998]

The people that have true talent, are the plain/average looking ones.

It's all about looks!

S.

[montesquieu]

Nice to see some engagement with the link I posted :rolleyes:

[Svend N]

This has been around for a long time. I still recall the outcry in the 80s around Milli Vanilli lip-syncing all their songs.

And speaking of Auto-Tune, one very popular singer (also Canadian) that I simply cannot bear to hear is Drake. It sounds like his voice is entirely computer-generated. To be fair to him, he may actually have talent, but I'd have to hear him live and acoustic (no mic) to believe it.

[Svend N]

Tom, I did in fact watch the entire video. Excellent, and very thought-provoking. It basically confirmed many of the things I'd been aware of for some time, but had never really pulled together as this presenter did. Well done. Should be required watching for all younger people.

As an aside, I have found myself listening more and more to so-called "classic rock", rather than new music. Perhaps this has been an unconscious repulsion from the new "canned" sound, and an attraction to the more authentic creativity and talent of the previous era.

Very interesting topic. Thanks for posting.

Svend

[Stratmangler]

The conclusion has to be that Max Martin needs to be executed, or at least abducted and be kept isolated and incarcerated for the rest of his natural life.
Same with Lucasz Gottwald.

[Yomanze]

Modern pop is designed to be snackable and offer short-term thrills. Shelf life has no relevance, it’s just about pushing the next hit.

However there is still some great pop out there if you look around. [emoji4]

[Haselsh1]

I suspect that modern pop music is so bad because there is a massive lack of music skill involved in producing it. There is not a grain of complexity to any of it compared to a few decades ago because that aspect of music has been removed by the likes of X Factor that almost entirely feeds on what these people look like with all of their voices fitting the new stereotype. I tend to think that as with almost everything modern the whole concept is about making very easy money in the shortest possible time frame started by Stock, Aitken and Waterman or even Nicky Chin and Mike Chapman back in the seventies. As to why young people today no longer give a shit for music, I haven't got a clue but as with all history,
no doubt it will simply reinvent itself.

[Pieoftheday]

Modern pop is designed to be snackable and offer short-term thrills. Shelf life has no relevance, it’s just about pushing the next hit.

However there is still some great pop out there if you look around. [emoji4]

Im sure tbere was plenty of shite pop in the 60s 70s 80s.etc too

[WESTLOWER]

Nicely encapsulated in the video...I't made me depressed!
Stop the ride, I want to get off!

[Haselsh1]

Im sure tbere was plenty of shite pop in the 60s 70s 80s.etc too

Oh yes, there very definitely was.

[Pieoftheday]

Oh yes, there very definitely was.

And there's probably good pop too.where I work they often have Heart radio blasting out, utter bolloxs on a loop,same day in day out.once in a while radio one gets an airing, I couldn't name any of the artists but there was some good stuff on. I think perhaps the question should be, why do people lap this commercial crap up? Look at the xfactor for example,the audience isn't just 12year olds it's 30 40 50 year olds too screaming in joy at the tedious crap

[montesquieu]

I suspect that modern pop music is so bad because there is a massive lack of music skill involved in producing it. There is not a grain of complexity to any of it compared to a few decades ago because that aspect of music has been removed by the likes of X Factor that almost entirely feeds on what these people look like with all of their voices fitting the new stereotype. I tend to think that as with almost everything modern the whole concept is about making very easy money in the shortest possible time frame started by Stock, Aitken and Waterman or even Nicky Chin and Mike Chapman back in the seventies. As to why young people today no longer give a shit for music, I haven't got a clue but as with all history,
no doubt it will simply reinvent itself.

Something has gone badly wrong with vocal production in the last couple of decades. Wannabe-pop stars learn to widdle at the stage schools their wannabe parents send them to - that strange vocal affectation that is absolutely everywhere these days - with the consequence that they all sound like a princess out of a Disney film.

It became most apparent to me when listening to the sountrack of a film about New York's Greenwich Village in the Bob Dylan/Joan Baez era - it was called 'Inside Llewyn Davies' and amongst other things featured some modern pop types singing some of the folk songs - of course they all had the widdle, which was ridiculously anachronistic. (Apart from being a bit silly). The songs sounded nothing like what Dylan and Baez and Pete Seeger and Peter Paul & Mary would have sung like.

To be fair to the widdlers on the film, at least they managed to sing the songs .. the average pop diva seems to have a vocal range of 4 notes these days.

Oh and Roger Scruton is quite good on the whole pop music topic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYua80VEcBk

[martian sunrise]

Nice to see some engagement with the link I posted :rolleyes:

ha! the title was a red rag to the ranters, you have to admit...

[WESTLOWER]

. Wannabe-pop stars learn to widdle at the stage schools their wannabe parents send them to - that strange vocal affectation that is absolutely everywhere these days - with the consequence that they all sound like a princess out of a Disney film.

That Widdle you very accurately describe, drives me fooking nuts. It's awful and totally unnecessary. Female 'vocalist' do it all the time. There is no expression or depth to it, it's just a vocal exercise akin to a gargle.
God i thought I was alone, when I hear it i want to punch the singer in the throat. it's utter drivel... where did it come from? Where is the purity in the vocal range? It's a shame, I would imagine many of these singers can really
sing and have great natural voices but the 'industry' has dictated they will sing this way.

[Pieoftheday]

That Widdle you very accurately describe, drives me fooking nuts. It's awful and totally unnecessary. Female 'vocalist' do it all the time. There is no expression or depth to it, it's just a vocal exercise akin to a gargle.
God i thought I was alone, when I hear it i want to punch the singer in the throat. it's utter drivel... where did it come from? Where is the purity in the vocal range? It's a shame, I would imagine many of these singers can really
sing and have great natural voices but the 'industry' has dictated they will sing this way.

Punch them in throat,:lol: why on earth do we get so flusterd? You arnt alone though, i cant stand that worbling crap either :steam: On the other hand if people like it...

[WESTLOWER]

It's very enlightening when you hear a 'pop' singer unshackled by the constraints of the horrid, bastard pop machine.
I have no time for any of it, but I was wandering between stages at the fabulous North Sea Jazz festival, in Holland a few years ago and was stopped dead in my tracks by a female vocalist singing just wonderfully.
I entered the Auditorium and singing this beautiful thing live, was (it pains me to say it)... Lady Gaga. She was performing with Anthony Dominick Benedetto, Tony Bennett to you and I.
I have to tip the hat to her. She was very good indeed. But it did throw up the question of how many talented artists are being bent out of shape for the machine.

[Sherwood]

I'm not so sure that it is any more or less terrible than it has ever been. The reality is that the really bad stuff from previous decades does not survive or is so seldom played nowadays that we forget about it. My musical tastes are very eclectic and I regularly play "pop" music from the 50's onwards. Some of these tunes remain in our consciousness because they were catchy or were sung well, or perhaps just because they remind us of a particular time in our lives. I agree, that much of what tops the "hit parade" today is disposable rubbish, but it has always been that way. Go back to any of the top 20 listings over the last 60 years and I thin you will find that the vast majority of the tunes were dire. Personally, I have never taken much notice of the charts, and have always based my musical choices on what I like rather than what is popular.

Geoff

[montesquieu]

I'm not so sure that it is any more or less terrible than it has ever been. The reality is that the really bad stuff from previous decades does not survive or is so seldom played nowadays that we forget about it. My musical tastes are very eclectic and I regularly play "pop" music from the 50's onwards. Some of these tunes remain in our consciousness because they were catchy or were sung well, or perhaps just because they remind us of a particular time in our lives. I agree, that much of what tops the "hit parade" today is disposable rubbish, but it has always been that way. Go back to any of the top 20 listings over the last 60 years and I thin you will find that the vast majority of the tunes were dire. Personally, I have never taken much notice of the charts, and have always based my musical choices on what I like rather than what is popular.

Geoff

Some enlightening stuff in the link at the top on these topics - the central point being made is that it is, indeed, demonstrably, measurably, poorer than the pop of yesteryear.

I doubt many people here listen to current pop music in any case.

[Haselsh1]

LOL, the title of this thread is the reason I still listen to quality musicianship from decades ago on quality audio gear.

[Tim]

The people that have true talent, are the plain/average looking ones.

It's all about looks!
:rfl: what a load of bollocks

[southall-1998]

:rfl: what a load of bollocks

You clearly can't see reality, for what it really is! Enjoy taking more blue pills!

S.

[paulf-2007]

That Widdle you very accurately describe, drives me fooking nuts. It's awful and totally unnecessary. Female 'vocalist' do it all the time. There is no expression or depth to it, it's just a vocal exercise akin to a gargle.
God i thought I was alone, when I hear it i want to punch the singer in the throat. it's utter drivel... where did it come from? Where is the purity in the vocal range? It's a shame, I would imagine many of these singers can really
sing and have great natural voices but the 'industry' has dictated they will sing this way.they all use voice coaches so mostly sound the same. In bygone years, pop singers had their own style.

[oldius]

Every decade through history, people have criticised the music of the day in comparison with the music of their youth. I remember my parents doing it to me, as their parents did to them.

I believe that the quality of music is as high as it has ever been, as young people have easy access to a huge range of influences that were not accessible in our day without thousands of hours set aside for digging. As always, the music in the charts is not necessarily the place you will find the good stuff.

[Pieoftheday]

Every decade through history, people have criticised the music of the day in comparison with the music of their youth. I remember my parents doing it to me, as their parents did to them.

I believe that the quality of music is as high as it has ever been, as young people have easy access to a huge range of influences that were not accessible in our day without thousands of hours set aside for digging. As always, the music in the charts is not necessarily the place you will find the good stuff.

Sounds about right to me. To be fair some of what might have been seen as crap pop controlled by the industry has now become respected, I mean early Beatles was pop controlled by managers, fame and money gave them the power to do what they really wanted to do.apparently they gave up live shows because know one listened to the music, girls just screamed at good looking blokes, pop at it's worst and best I guess

[montesquieu]

Every decade through history, people have criticised the music of the day in comparison with the music of their youth. I remember my parents doing it to me, as their parents did to them.

I believe that the quality of music is as high as it has ever been, as young people have easy access to a huge range of influences that were not accessible in our day without thousands of hours set aside for digging. As always, the music in the charts is not necessarily the place you will find the good stuff.


Seriously the link is worth watching v

[montesquieu]

they all use voice coaches so mostly sound the same. In bygone years, pop singers had their own style.

I wouldn't call them voice coaches. A proper voice coach brings out the best in an individual. A properly trained singer will have multiple modes of expression and a whole raft of skills to bring to the party.

These are cynically turning out fat arsed diva clones whose voices will only ever have one gear.

[Svend N]

Some enlightening stuff in the link at the top on these topics - the central point being made is that it is, indeed, demonstrably, measurably, poorer than the pop of yesteryear.

I doubt many people here listen to current pop music in any case.

....Nor many young people....fewer than you might think....

To put some more encouraging words into this discussion, I think you might be surprised how many young people don't listen to this kind of pop music. Being the father of two daughters, now age 19 and 21, and being very connected to their (rather large) circle of friends and acquaintances, I'm always struck by the variety and quality of what they're tuned in to, and how they recognize rubbish when they hear it. I would venture to say that almost none of these kids (young adults now), listen to canned pop, except perhaps as mindless background music and then only occasionally (say for exercise tracks, that sort of thing). Tastes run the gamut from alternative, punk, metal, folk-inspired alternative, acoustic, to jazz and classical. E.g. you'd be amazed at how many young teenage boys are REALLY into the classic rock bands of the '60s and '70s -- Stones, Zeppelin, The Who, Pink Floyd... Closer to home, my eldest has nothing to do with crap pop, but digs Ben Howard, Hozier, Mumford, City in Colour....stuff like that. Good song writing, great musicianship, lots of creative talent. She, and most of her friends, value authenticity above all, in whatever form that comes in. They're quite savvy the big pop marketing machine. You know, I was exactly like that in my teenage years -- I sought out the real stuff, and just ignored the rest. Nothing much has changed, and that's a good thing.

Best,
Svend

[Phil Bishop]

I watched the first 4 minutes of the original video and turned it off. You can't compare The Beatles' "A Day In The Life" to Britney Spears, you can't suggest Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, etc, were just "pop". For the argument to be valid, you need to be comparing true like with like, so maybe comparing modern pop with pop singles of the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc. Of course, it is still probably generally getting worse but you still need valid comparisons. There was some dire pop around in the 70's - I recently played a whole Bay City Rollers album - blimey, it was sh*te.

My faith in "modern" music was recently restored by The War on Drugs, but they do have a retro feel :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcxWyfGR-2A

Sounds better via You Tube than many 70's prog rock albums too :eek:

[WESTLOWER]

fat arsed diva clones
Come to think of it, I could do with one of these in my life :lol:

[Svend N]

My faith in "modern" music was recently restored by The War on Drugs, but they do have a retro feel :)


There is some excellent modern music being made, it just takes a bit of effort to find it. Having two young daughters really helps, and I must admit I really like much of what they listen to. I'm secretly very proud of them for having such good taste.

As an aside, I take great pleasure in comparing old and new with them (Phil - to your retro feel comment), to show them that much of the music made today is inspired by the music of decades prior. Sometimes they are blown away by the similarities - e.g. the opening chords to a song on Arcade Fire's Reflector album are almost exactly the same as Simple Minds' New Gold Dream....they were floored when I put on that old LP from the '80s. They used to look at me like I was daft when I said that a new song was basically like, say, the Beatles White Album, or Oasis (a bit more current), or something like that...but now they take me seriously enough to want to hear the original, and I smile when they've discovered something new to them. So what's old really is new again. Still sounds great though!

Cheers,
Svend

[Crackles]

Enjoyed that video. Thankfully I'm not familiar with most of the music he refers to, as I largely manage to avoid crappy pop.

It just seems to me that the industry has become so slick now that they know they can maximise profits by using a proven process. Why bother with creativity when you know that Beiber, Perry etc will make the profits without the risks or diversity. Hence the apparently much smaller pool of household names now in pop music.

It's the 80/20 rule, which he alludes to in that video.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[oldius]

Enjoyed that video. Thankfully I'm not familiar with most of the music he refers to, as I largely manage to avoid crappy pop.

It just seems to me that the industry has become so slick now that they know they can maximise profits by using a proven process. Why bother with creativity when you know that Beiber, Perry etc will make the profits without the risks or diversity. Hence the apparently much smaller pool of household names now in pop music.

It's the 80/20 rule, which he alludes to in that video.

Sent from my SM-G920F using TapatalkThe industry was nearly always that way. If music weren't about money, Elvis would have been an also ran while the black musicians who inspired him would have been the new kings on the block.

The snobbery has to end. For every Lady Gaga I give you a Dave, Dee, Dozy, Mick and Titch!

[Crackles]

The industry was nearly always that way. If music weren't about money, Elvis would have been an also ran while the black musicians who inspired him would have been the new kings on the block.

The snobbery has to end. For every Lady Gaga I give you a Dave, Dee, Dozy, Mick and Titch!I agree that there was always crap music, the point is that there is very little decent music becoming successful now. At one time a wide range of artists occupied the charts, and the public conscience, from skilled musicians to novelty acts. I listen to loads of modern music that isn't commercially successful because it doesn't fit the modern pop formula, which means people in day to day life have never heard of it. They could only name the obvious mega stars of modern music. It didn't used to be like that when the mainstream music people were exposed to was a lot more varied.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Haselsh1]

I watched the first 4 minutes of the original video and turned it off. You can't compare The Beatles' "A Day In The Life" to Britney Spears, you can't suggest Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, etc, were just "pop". For the argument to be valid, you need to be comparing true like with like, so maybe comparing modern pop with pop singles of the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc. Of course, it is still probably generally getting worse but you still need valid comparisons. There was some dire pop around in the 70's - I recently played a whole Bay City Rollers album - blimey, it was sh*te.

My faith in "modern" music was recently restored by The War on Drugs, but they do have a retro feel :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcxWyfGR-2A

Sounds better via You Tube than many 70's prog rock albums too :eek:

You clearly use hearing aids.

;)

[Phil Bishop]

You clearly use hearing aids.

;)

Not yet and tests suggest my hearing is pretty good. Check out the KEXP stuff on You Tube - I find the audio quality surpasses many dire 70's recordings. Why? Because the engineers know what they are doing. Bit rate does not come into it - far more important is the original recording - that's why Buddy Holly from the 50's still sounds so amazing.

My taste is mainly grounded in 70's rock but most of it sounds dire to me - there are notable exceptions, Floyd's "DSOTM" and Caravan's "In The Land Of Grey & Pink" for example. An example of a classic rock song that has never sounded right to me is Zeppelin's "When The Levee Breaks". Held up as an example of cataclysmic drumming the whole just sounds like a muffled din to me.

Svend - "New Gold Dream" is an amazing album :) An 80's classic. I have two daughters, now 19 and 22. The only band one of them recommended to me that I took to was "First Aid Kit". Again, to explode a myth their iTunes session sounds better to my ears than any of their albums on vinyl or CD. My youngest daughter is a big Taylor Swift fan :mental: In an attempt to find any of her music that had any texture or interest to it I bought a couple of her albums on vinyl. They both sounded awful - flat and dimensionless. With the technology available today there is no excuse for this - well, I guess there is - they want it to sound best on PMPs, etc.

Cheers

Phil

[Svend N]

Svend - "New Gold Dream" is an amazing album :) An 80's classic. I have two daughters, now 19 and 22. The only band one of them recommended to me that I took to was "First Aid Kit". Again, to explode a myth their iTunes session sounds better to my ears than any of their albums on vinyl or CD. My youngest daughter is a big Taylor Swift fan :mental: In an attempt to find any of her music that had any texture or interest to it I bought a couple of her albums on vinyl. They both sounded awful - flat and dimensionless. With the technology available today there is no excuse for this - well, I guess there is - they want it to sound best on PMPs, etc.

Cheers

Phil

Hi Phil,

Sorry for the late reply -- just saw your post today. I had a listen to First Aid Kit -- great sound. I just punted their info to my daughters for them to have a listen. Coincidentally, they are doing a concert here in Toronto in a couple of weeks.

I've been a big Simple Minds fan since their early years. Have a listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E0fVfectDo. It's the hit song Reflektor from The Arcade Fire. Tell me what you hear in the first few bars, say from about 0:12 to 0:42 :)

Cheers,
Svend

[Stratmangler]

An example of a classic rock song that has never sounded right to me is Zeppelin's "When The Levee Breaks". Held up as an example of cataclysmic drumming the whole just sounds like a muffled din to me

It sounds the way it was intended to sound.
It was an attempt to evoke some of the sound & feeling of playing an old 78rpm record, something they also did on the beginning and ending sections of "Bring It On Home" on Led Zeppelin II.
Muffled din is not an incorrect way of putting things.

[Pieoftheday]

Hi Phil,

Sorry for the late reply -- just saw your post today. I had a listen to First Aid Kit -- great sound. I just punted their info to my daughters for them to have a listen. Coincidentally, they are doing a concert here in Toronto in a couple of weeks.

I've been a big Simple Minds fan since their early years. Have a listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E0fVfectDo. It's the hit song Reflektor from The Arcade Fire. Tell me what you hear in the first few bars, say from about 0:12 to 0:42 :)

Cheers,
Svend
Was going to say Love Song but no, not sure about New Gold Dream either, great album though. Simple Minds seem to have found their feet again though it's the early stuff I like

[Svend N]

Was going to say Love Song but no, not sure about New Gold Dream either, great album though. Simple Minds seem to have found their feet again though it's the early stuff I like

Yeah, hard to pin it to a particular Simple Minds tune, now that I listen to a few of them. But definitely the characteristic Simple Minds "sound" is there in Reflektor.

I actually quite like a lot of what Arcade Fire are doing. Great band. Very creative.

[Pieoftheday]

Yeah, hard to pin it to a particular Simple Minds tune, now that I listen to a few of them. But definitely the characteristic Simple Minds "sound" is there in Reflektor.

I actually quite like a lot of what Arcade Fire are doing. Great band. Very creative.

Hi Svend, do you have any of Simple Minds live recordings? Live in The City of Light is very good, Hunter and the Hunted is a great live song,on the Bside of Someone Somewhere in Summertime I think,also on a recent CD, but can't seem to find it:scratch:my bad, Bside of waterfront:doh:

[datdad]

The question is asked ' Why is modern pop so terrible?'
Could the real answer be, with this forum of ancients' that the questioners - and many of the answerers - are too old??
I envy my kids generations ( in their late 20's) they have their own current music, there are a great number of choirs to join, and they can delve back into their ancients music going back yonks.
The only thing I hold agin them is that they seem to hate Jazz!! Heathens.

[struth]

i used to be ancient, but now my daughter is well into her 30's i am apparently still young;)

[Pieoftheday]

The question is asked ' Why is modern pop so terrible?'
Could the real answer be, with this forum of ancients' that the questioners - and many of the answerers - are too old??
I envy my kids generations ( in their late 20's) they have their own current music, there are a great number of choirs to join, and they can delve back into their ancients music going back yonks.
The only thing I hold agin them is that they seem to hate Jazz!! Heathens.

I reckon your rite,let people like what they like, even if it is crap:lol:

[Macca]

I think the bloke in the o/p video is stretching a point. His comparisons are extreme, you can't compare Dylan to modern popsters like Beiber. You can't compare 60s and 70s music by proper bands to songs that consist of a looped vocal and a drum machine.

Where I tuned out was when he talks about the hook being much earlier in the song nowdays. But the Beatles would start a song with the hook, perfectly common in the 1960s.

And as far as I can see a lot of this modern rubbish has no hook at all. Just a meandering verse leading to another meandering verse, no proper chorus at all. I wonder how they can remember them to sing them live.

[oldius]

I think the bloke in the o/p video is stretching a point. His comparisons are extreme, you can't compare Dylan to modern popsters like Beiber. You can't compare 60s and 70s music by proper bands to songs that consist of a looped vocal and a drum machine.

Where I tuned out was when he talks about the hook being much earlier in the song nowdays. But the Beatles would start a song with the hook, perfectly common in the 1960s.

And as far as I can see a lot of this modern rubbish has no hook at all. Just a meandering verse leading to another meandering verse, no proper chorus at all. I wonder how they can remember them to sing them live.IMO he sounds like an old fart harking back to halcyon days that never were.

[Macca]

IMO he sounds like an old fart harking back to halcyon days that never were.

He doesn't look a day over 35 but reckons he is old. If he thinks 35 is old he's got a shock coming.

[montesquieu]

IMO he sounds like an old fart harking back to halcyon days that never were.

Well I think all the points he makes are spot on - they are measurable after all:

So-called popular music is becoming less harmonically complex - well this is intuitively true and I would suggest a bad thing. And measurable/demonstrable.
So-called popular music is becoming less melodically complex - again this is intuitively obvious, the dumbed down millennial woop is something you can also count.
So-called popular music is becoming less interesting and varied in the textures and timbres used - again, the studies are irrefutable.
So-called popular music is overly risk averse, due to the amount of money needed to break a band now - I would say this is less measurable but I think perfectly defensible.

The result overall is that today's so-called popular music is pretty shit. Note that I'm talking about POPULAR music - the stuff that's forced down your ears when you go to the barbers, or got to a noisy pub, or any other source of noise pollution. The stuff that's everywhere, in Nandos, in the charts, whose stars' names are on the telly and in Hello magazine, who people are supposed to know by sight. And the fact is - it's the shittiest it's ever been.

By no means am I saying that all modern music is shit, or that all kids have bad taste. What I'm saying is that what passes for 'common', shared music of our era, the stuff that's unavoidable unless you go round with ear defenders on, is the absolute pits. Think about it - talent contest rubbish, mass manufactured crap. Was it better in the days of Showaddywaddy, Bay City Rollers and Boney M? Well probably, yes. It was certainly less offensive and had a bit more variety.

I am most certainly not talking about other kinds of music. I have kids too, now 19 and 21. My daughter's taste is completely off the wall and I doubt you'd ever find any of it in the barber's. (She's also a pianist and harpist though, so I'd expect her to have some taste). I use to take the piss that she was putting her south korean bazuki music on again. My son astonished me though, A combination of old Zappa and modern Thundercats-type stuff, his music is not far off the same sort of Jazz Rock I used to mix with classical at that age (I recently bought him a turntable, since I found he already had a vinyl collestion) - but again it's not, by any definition, pop music.

As for comparison with Dylan, the Beatles, Eric Clapton, even the Smiths - yes you can compare it perfectly legitimately, because for all it's treated as art music these days, it competed against the daily dreck and somehow made it to the top of the charts, people got their pocket money out and bought this stuff in their millions. It's a mark of how far pop music has fallen that some would now argue the comparison can't even be made.

[Macca]

So today's shit music is even worse than the shit music of yesteryear? That's agreed. But that matters for nothing, as long as there is still some new music that is good. I'm sure there must be, I just don't seem to stumble upon it. Last new album I bought was that Daft Punk one, but that is a couple of years back now.

I think the real loss is the loss of the shared culture of music. Everyone older than 40 grew up with the same large collection of bands and artists. Okay, taste varied, but everyone was familiar with Bowie, or Neal Young, Zep, Lizzy, even more fringe stuff like Jesus And Mary Chain or The Cure whether they liked them or not. Everyone watched the music shows, even Top Of The Pops. You'd talk about it the next day. By the turn of the decade it was all fractured, the common history tails out around then.

[montesquieu]

So today's shit music is even worse than the shit music of yesteryear? That's agreed. But that matters for nothing, as long as there is still some new music that is good. I'm sure there must be, I just don't seem to stumble upon it. Last new album I bought was that Daft Punk one, but that is a couple of years back now.

I think the real loss is the loss of the shared culture of music. Everyone older than 40 grew up with the same large collection of bands and artists. Okay, taste varied, but everyone was familiar with Bowie, or Neal Young, Zep, Lizzy, even more fringe stuff like Jesus And Mary Chain or The Cure whether they liked them or not. Everyone watched the music shows, even Top Of The Pops. You'd talk about it the next day. By the turn of the decade it was all fractured, the common history tails out around then.

No this is precisely my point - that popular music wasn't always shit, that once it was worth engaging with, and once included the Beatles, Bowie, Led Zep and so on, which are the acts that gave it diversity and imagination and complexity.

This is why the guy's points are spot on.

[oldius]

I wish we wouldn't feel the need to constantly compare. There was great music then, there is now. There was shit music then, there is now.

It's often the case too that we don't recognise what's there right now across all facets of life. Thinking that things were better is probably something that every generation has believed.

[montesquieu]

I wish we wouldn't feel the need to constantly compare. There was great music then, there is now. There was shit music then, there is now.

It's often the case too that we don't recognise what's there right now across all facets of life. Thinking that things were better is probably something that every generation has believed.

I disagree. The point is not that there is or isn't good music around, that's not in dispute. It's that that the shared experience, the music that's forced on us, indeed, has been corrupted and degraded. Not just objectively but this can be demonstrated measurably. (Not that it was ever perfect by any means but the means are there to evaluate the nature of its current state of degradation).

[Sherwood]

I disagree. The point is not that there is or isn't good music around, that's not in dispute. It's that that the shared experience, the music that's forced on us, indeed, has been corrupted and degraded. Not just objectively but this can be demonstrated measurably. (Not that it was ever perfect by any means but the means are there to evaluate the nature of its current state of degradation).

I made my point earlier in this thread that nothing has really changed in 60 years of popular music: there is good and bad in each decade, but we tend to forget the dire rubbish that was forced upon us in the days when TOTP and FM radio were our primary sources of music. I disagree strongly that a "decline" is measurably demonstrable. The algorithm used in the video seems to be crude and focuses on a few selected variables that are claimed to define musical quality. I wonder just how many songs were sampled and what potential there is for bias in the sampling. Personally, I do need want an algorithm to define musical quality and if I did I would want a more sophisticated formulae that incorporated subjective ratings than than a machine reading.

Geoff

[montesquieu]

I made my point earlier in this thread that nothing has really changed in 60 years of popular music: there is good and bad in each decade, but we tend to forget the dire rubbish that was forced upon us in the days when TOTP and FM radio were our primary sources of music. I disagree strongly that a "decline" is measurably demonstrable. The algorithm used in the video seems to be crude and focuses on a few selected variables that are claimed to define musical quality. I wonder just how many songs were sampled and what potential there is for bias in the sampling. Personally, I do need want an algorithm to define musical quality and if I did I would want a more sophisticated formulae that incorporated subjective ratings than than a machine reading.

Geoff

What algorithm? He's quoting multiple studies by multiple academics (I had a poke around using my wife's uni library login there's tons of people working on this), assessing the key elements that make music interesting:

- harmony
- melody
- texture and timbre.

Beyond that there's only rhythm.

What other parameters would you use to characterise music? Did you actually listen to the clip? What about the fact that a truly huge number of chart-toppers for dozens of singers are the product of just two people? (This was nowhere near the case even at the height of Stock Aitken Waterman's powers).

[Sherwood]

I watched it twice because it irritated me so much. Other variables? What about emotional content, quality of vocals, the tightness of the band, the sheer hummabilty of the tune. I could probably add many more critetia that no computer programme could capture.

Geoff

[montesquieu]

I watched it twice because it irritated me so much. Other variables? What about emotional content, quality of vocals, the tightness of the band, the sheer hummabilty of the tune. I could probably add many more critetia that no computer programme could capture.

Geoff

And those have improved over days gone by? In a world of xFactor and four note vocal ranges and widdling Disney Princess stage schools and autotune?

Please.

The point is that restricting the range of harmonic and melodic expression (the dumbing down of the music itself) will have an inevitable effect of the stuff you say you are looking for. It's self-evident.

[Svend N]

Hi Svend, do you have any of Simple Minds live recordings? Live in The City of Light is very good, Hunter and the Hunted is a great live song,on the Bside of Someone Somewhere in Summertime I think,also on a recent CD, but can't seem to find it:scratch:my bad, Bside of waterfront:doh:

Hi James,
I'll have to dig through my record collection. To be honest, there is stuff in there I've forgotten I had....shameful, ain't it? I have at least five Simple Minds albums on vinyl, but can't recall if there's a live one. Will post back later once I've had a look-see.

Spotify has Live in the City of Light. Will have a listen soon...

[Pieoftheday]

So today's shit music is even worse than the shit music of yesteryear? That's agreed. But that matters for nothing, as long as there is still some new music that is good. I'm sure there must be, I just don't seem to stumble upon it. Last new album I bought was that Daft Punk one, but that is a couple of years back now.

I think the real loss is the loss of the shared culture of music. Everyone older than 40 grew up with the same large collection of bands and artists. Okay, taste varied, but everyone was familiar with Bowie, or Neal Young, Zep, Lizzy, even more fringe stuff like Jesus And Mary Chain or The Cure whether they liked them or not. Everyone watched the music shows, even Top Of The Pops. You'd talk about it the next day. By the turn of the decade it was all fractured, the common history tails out around then.

Good point. there doesn't seem to be anything like rockers mods punks etc, what happened there?

[Sherwood]

We don't have Skiffle or Doowop bands either! That's becsuse we move on with each generation creating their own distinctive music.

[walpurgis]

We don't have Skiffle or Doowop bands either!

Bet we do. Not mainstream though.

[Minstrel SE]

I had to come to terms with there has always been music I dont like around and its probably more of an age thing. The music biz will put out what sells and its selling so my opinion doesnt really matter.

I do agree with Tom but Im just scared of sounding like a Grandad when I see people enjoying it. Even talking about youngsters makes me feel past it or like Im trying to get down wi da kidz :(

I heard some tracks in a shop yesterday and it was catchy enough in its own way. A heavy beat behind it and a lot of repetition but maybe its a blend between pop, rap and dance which I havent adapted to. Its not really aimed at me and I feel the young dont really want me liking it anyway.

Its one of the reasons Radio 6 took off because I wont put radio 1 on now even though there may be some stuff on there I may like

I dont know whether Ive grown out of it or just not in touch. Im listening to a lot of classical and opera now so something has changed in me :)

[Pigmy Pony]

There is so much new music, and so many ways to hear it, that finding the good stuff has never been harder. It used to be that our TV exposure to pop/rock was limited to TOTP or Old Grey Whistle Test, and these were aired only once, with no chance to "Sky Plus" it or watch on catch up. Consequently everybody watched them at the same time, creating a kind of community spirit, unknowingly. And we knew the new releases hit the record shops on Monday, and we'd hurry home with our new purchases. We would take our records round to our friends' houses and hear their new purchases.

These all came with extensive sleeve notes, which I for one, always read. Not many sleeve notes with downloads, and even if you bought it on CD, you need eyes like a shithouse rat to read them. Most of the time the "artist" doesn't even bother to acknowledge the origin of the tune they nicked (sorry, sampled) for the only interesting part of their song.

Obviously nostalgia plays a big part, and my previous paragraph shows a shit-load of it, and I'm not saying that today's pop is worse than the older stuff, but the seemingly unlimited number of ways to access music seems to have made finding stuff I'd consider worth buying harder, not easier.

[Sherwood]

There is so much new music, and so many ways to hear it, that finding the good stuff has never been harder. It used to be that our TV exposure to pop/rock was limited to TOTP or Old Grey Whistle Test, and these were aired only once, with no chance to "Sky Plus" it or watch on catch up. Consequently everybody watched them at the same time, creating a kind of community spirit, unknowingly. And we knew the new releases hit the record shops on Monday, and we'd hurry home with our new purchases. We would take our records round to our friends' houses and hear their new purchases.

These all came with extensive sleeve notes, which I for one, always read. Not many sleeve notes with downloads, and even if you bought it on CD, you need eyes like a shithouse rat to read them. Most of the time the "artist" doesn't even bother to acknowledge the origin of the tune they nicked (sorry, sampled) for the only interesting part of their song.

Obviously nostalgia plays a big part, and my previous paragraph shows a shit-load of it, and I'm not saying that today's pop is worse than the older stuff, but the seemingly unlimited number of ways to access music seems to have made finding stuff I'd consider worth buying harder, not easier.

It depends on how you search. Many streaming services have a related artists facility whereby you can track down other artists based upon your preferences or past music selections. In other cases, you can go to the website of artists that you like and find links to other similar artists that you like. Since coming back to the UK I have found some really good local(ish) music venues that play artists that I like and I have discovered some good new artists that way. I have found a few good themed internet radio stations that have helped identify good new artists.

I have also found I am making fewer bad album purchases since I make a point of listening on Spotify or Deezer before deciding whether to purchase a cd or music download. This is true of old releases as well as new music releases.

In short, I have never found it easier to discover good new music!

Geoff

[Pigmy Pony]

After reading your post Geoff, and re-reading mine, I think:

(a) you make some very good points, particularly with Spotify etc.
(b) I'm a lazy old git

Apart from my gripes about sampled music, I don't feel that modern pop is better or worse than earlier stuff, I just miss the way music was discovered and listened to. I guess as I get older, this will become increasingly a lone pursuit-most of my friends these days would rather sit through episodes of "Criminal Minds" or "Silent Witness" than put on a record. And Mrs. Pony isn't any better, she hates my music tastes!

Anyway, I've just "discovered" my new favourite, John Martyn. I know I'm probably about 40 years behind the rest of you with this, but acquainting myself with his catalogue will keep me going for a while :)

[Sherwood]

After reading your post Geoff, and re-reading mine, I think:

(a) you make some very good points, particularly with Spotify etc.
(b) I'm a lazy old git

Apart from my gripes about sampled music, I don't feel that modern pop is better or worse than earlier stuff, I just miss the way music was discovered and listened to. I guess as I get older, this will become increasingly a lone pursuit-most of my friends these days would rather sit through episodes of "Criminal Minds" or "Silent Witness" than put on a record. And Mrs. Pony isn't any better, she hates my music tastes!

Anyway, I've just "discovered" my new favourite, John Martyn. I know I'm probably about 40 years behind the rest of you with this, but acquainting myself with his catalogue will keep me going for a while :)

Agreed, every generation has its great and its ghastly. John Martyn was a great musician but a crazy person. His streams of consciousness phase owed a lot to Van Morisson I think.

There was a good BBC(?) documentary made about him after he lost his foot (alcohol abuse) but not his zest for life. Worth checking out the work of his long time collaborator Danny Thomas.

Geoff

[montesquieu]

Worth checking out the work of his long time collaborator Danny Thomas.

Geoff

Thompson.

[Sherwood]

Thompson.

Yes, damn predictive texting! I saw Thompson and Martyn play live together a couple of times and they were as one musician!

Geoff

[Stratmangler]

There was a good BBC(?) documentary made about him after he lost his foot (alcohol abuse) but not his zest for life

He lost his foot to septicemia caused by a burst cyst (which JM himself attributed to the weight of lugging a Les Paul guitar around on stage).
He neglected to get the problem seen to early enough.
Being frequently out of it would have had some bearing on the outcome, but alcohol didn't cause the problem.

[Sherwood]

He lost his foot to septicemia caused by a burst cyst (which JM himself attributed to the weight of lugging a Les Paul guitar around on stage).
He neglected to get the problem seen to early enough.
Being frequently out of it would have had some bearing on the outcome, but alcohol didn't cause the problem.

Not correct. Alcoholism and its physical complications are major risk factors in septecemia.

His heavy use of alcohol and massive weight gain after amputation were the underlying causes of his death.

Geoff

[Pigmy Pony]

Well, all this just makes him more interesting. Funny how a tendency towards self-destruction and creative talent so often go together.

The album I bought (for £11,99 at HMV, bargain!) is called "Solid Air: Classics Revisited". I'm hoping someone will say "that one's ok, but you should really hear "....."

Not to be confused with "Solid Air", this seems to be a re-working of some of his best known songs, hence the title. What do you think, where should I go next?

[Macca]

'Solid Air' itself. Not massively keen on him myself but that one is a brilliant record.

[struth]

Yes got that on an abbey rd fancy reissue which is well made and sounds good. Not the most dynamic record but good stuff

[montesquieu]

Well I quite like some of the early stuff though he made a couple of albums with his then wife early on which are really good when her flute isn't noodling in the background. To be fair she was a serious artist in her own right and worked with Paul Simon before getting together with JM.

My favourites: London Conversations, a solo (mono only) album, possibly my favourite after Solid Air (the proper album with no added bits, if you can find it - I quite rate the Abbey Road vinyl reissue though I have a couple of earlier pressings including one I bought when I was still at school).

The Juggler and Stormbringer (barring those flutey-bits), these predate Solid Air which is his masterpiece, no question.

One World and Grace and Danger are good as well.

Most of the 80s and 90s are a dead loss and late in life he started fiddling with the back catalogue, bonus tracks and remix CDs and random compiliations - mostly a waste of time.

I've got pretty much everything up till the early 80s on vinyl.

I'm afraid for me you can see his abilities slip the more wasted he got. The voice, so expressive at the beginning, is an incoherent growl from surprisingly early

[Pigmy Pony]

I think I might pass on the stuff he did with his wife, I hate it when a woman's flute starts noodling in the background, but Solid Air seems to be a popular choice. Thank you all for your suggestions, most helpful :)

[Macca]

For best effect when listening to Solid Air you need a real late 1970s groove on. Get in some Skol lager. Still available and just as bad as it always was. Lights low, you should be burning incense, ideally sandalwood, but anything will do in a pinch. There should be an Indian mandala wall hanging on *at least* one wall. You should be smoking low grade hashish*. Do the first two cans and most of the hash in, then cue up the record.

*This may be illegal in some states or territories, if unsure please check with local law-enforcement authorities before sparking up.

[Sherwood]

For best effect when listening to Solid Air you need a real late 1970s groove on. Get in some Skol lager. Still available and just as bad as it always was. Lights low, you should be burning incense, ideally sandalwood, but anything will do in a pinch. There should be an Indian mandala wall hanging on *at least* one wall. You should be smoking low grade hashish*. Do the first two cans and most of the hash in, then cue up the record.

*This may be illegal in some states or territories, if unsure please check with local law-enforcement authorities before sparking up.

For real effect shouldn't that be a Watneys Party Seven?

[Sherwood]

Well I quite like some of the early stuff though he made a couple of albums with his then wife early on which are really good when her flute isn't noodling in the background. To be fair she was a serious artist in her own right and worked with Paul Simon before getting together with JM.

My favourites: London Conversations, a solo (mono only) album, possibly my favourite after Solid Air (the proper album with no added bits, if you can find it - I quite rate the Abbey Road vinyl reissue though I have a couple of earlier pressings including one I bought when I was still at school).

The Juggler and Stormbringer (barring those flutey-bits), these predate Solid Air which is his masterpiece, no question.

One World and Grace and Danger are good as well.

Most of the 80s and 90s are a dead loss and late in life he started fiddling with the back catalogue, bonus tracks and remix CDs and random compiliations - mostly a waste of time.

I've got pretty much everything up till the early 80s on vinyl.

I'm afraid for me you can see his abilities slip the more wasted he got. The voice, so expressive at the beginning, is an incoherent growl from surprisingly early

Agreed! I don't subscribe to the drug and alcohol fuelled creativity theory myself!

Geoff

[Sherwood]

Yes got that on an abbey rd fancy reissue which is well made and sounds good. Not the most dynamic record but good stuff

Not possible for it to be dynamic! It is a great record but the whole concept is meditative stream of consciousness stuff!

Geoff

[walpurgis]

Agreed! I don't subscribe to the drug and alcohol fuelled creativity theory myself!

Geoff

Never tried it then?

[Sherwood]

Never tried it then?

I speak from experience, both as a consumer and producer!

Geoff

[Barry]

Well I quite like some of the early stuff though he made a couple of albums with his then wife early on which are really good when her flute isn't noodling in the background. To be fair she was a serious artist in her own right and worked with Paul Simon before getting together with JM.

My favourites: London Conversations, a solo (mono only) album, possibly my favourite after Solid Air (the proper album with no added bits, if you can find it - I quite rate the Abbey Road vinyl reissue though I have a couple of earlier pressings including one I bought when I was still at school).

The Juggler and Stormbringer (barring those flutey-bits), these predate Solid Air which is his masterpiece, no question.

One World and Grace and Danger are good as well.

Most of the 80s and 90s are a dead loss and late in life he started fiddling with the back catalogue, bonus tracks and remix CDs and random compiliations - mostly a waste of time.

I've got pretty much everything up till the early 80s on vinyl.

I'm afraid for me you can see his abilities slip the more wasted he got. The voice, so expressive at the beginning, is an incoherent growl from surprisingly early

I like 'Stormbringer' and 'Road to Ruin', but then I like all his albums up to and including 'Grace and Danger'. After that I lost interest in his dabbling with AOR, but I did listen to one of his last recordings: 'Glasgow Walker' which wasn't too bad, but not a patch on his earlier work.


I used to excuse his 'slurring' as Martyn wanting to use his voice as an instrument, rather like 'scat' singing in jazz, but it could of course just be that he was drunk half the time. He and Danny Thompson could put it away!

By the way do you mean 'The Tumbler'?

[Macca]

For real effect shouldn't that be a Watneys Party Seven?

It certainly should. But try buying one in 2018. Maybe that will change with Brexit.

[montesquieu]

I like 'Stormbringer' and 'Road to Ruin', but then I like all his albums up to and including 'Grace and Danger'. After that I lost interest in his dabbling with AOR, but I did listen to one of his last recordings: 'Glasgow Walker' which wasn't too bad, but not a patch on his earlier work.


I used to excuse his 'slurring' as Martyn wanting to use his voice as an instrument, rather like 'scat' singing in jazz, but it could of course just be that he was drunk half the time. He and Danny Thompson could put it away!

By the way do you mean 'The Tumbler'?

Yes Tumbler sorry.

[Sherwood]

It certainly should. But try buying one in 2018. Maybe that will change with Brexit.

Let's hope this is not one of the unforeseen consequences of Brexit. One positive aspect of the EU era is that while the big multinationals have bought up our big brewers and homogenised their output, it is now possible to buy good quality beers from a plethora of small producers.

Geoff

[Macca]

Let's hope this is not one of the unforeseen consequences of Brexit

Something of a redundancy there. All the consequences of Brexit are unforeseen. :D

Although I would be happy to see the return of the party seven on purely nostalgic grounds, I'd be unlikely to buy one. I should get a new copy of Solid Air though. Got it on tape but no tape deck anymore. Must be 25 years since I heard it last.

[Pigmy Pony]

I speak from experience, both as a consumer and producer!

Geoff

What do you mean, a still in your shed, or a farm in your attic?

[Pigmy Pony]

Perhaps Party Seven was stopped because it messed with continental Europe's metric mindset, or maybe because it was crap.

[Sherwood]

Perhaps Party Seven was stopped because it messed with continental Europe's metric mindset, or maybe because it was crap.

Party 7 is still decimal. It was always dire!

Geoff

[Sherwood]

What do you mean, a still in your shed, or a farm in your attic?

No. I mean that at times in my life, working in dangerous places or in difficult circumstances, that an extra beer at the end of the day or an extra glass of wine, did nothing for my productivity or effectiveness.

As a consumer I doubt if much of the music I like benefitted from drug induced "creativity". I find most "psychedelic" music boring and repetitive. Frankly, I think that a lot of prog rock requires some drug induced state to make it tolerable!

Geoff

[Sherwood]

Something of a redundancy there. All the consequences of Brexit are unforeseen. :D

Although I would be happy to see the return of the party seven on purely nostalgic grounds, I'd be unlikely to buy one. I should get a new copy of Solid Air though. Got it on tape but no tape deck anymore. Must be 25 years since I heard it last.

All, I think not! The fact that it would antagonise the rest of Europe and would not heal the rift in the Tory Party.

Solid Air is perhaps JM's greatest work. Well worth a new copy!

Geoff

[Pigmy Pony]

No. I mean that at times in my life, working in dangerous places or in difficult circumstances, that an extra beer at the end of the day or an extra glass of wine, did nothing for my productivity or effectiveness.

As a consumer I doubt if much of the music I like benefitted from drug induced "creativity". I find most "psychedelic" music boring and repetitive. Frankly, I think that a lot of prog rock requires some drug induced state to make it tolerable!

Geoff

I doubt that any drug induced "creativity" would be of any value, and certainly not with the drugs commonly used these days (thinking about cocaine, or the so-called "legal highs". Rather the psychedelic drugs which became popular in the sixties, and even then, not during the trip. I imagine that anyone trying that would wake up the next day, look at the nonsense that seemed so good at the time, and hang their head in shame! Similar to someone driving a high performance car, then writing a review of the drive. They certainly wouldn't write the review WHILE driving, that would result would be at best unintelligible, and at worst fiery vehicular death!

Rather, their drug experiences changed their perception of things around them and the memory of this experience informed their creativity to some extent. Not everyone is going to like the psychedelic offerings of say, Hendrix or later Beatles, (I for one, love it) but in any case, I doubt much of it was produced WHILE they were out of it.

[Macca]

I doubt that any drug induced "creativity" would be of any value, and certainly not with the drugs commonly used these days (thinking about cocaine, or the so-called "legal highs". Rather the psychedelic drugs which became popular in the sixties, and even then, not during the trip. I imagine that anyone trying that would wake up the next day, look at the nonsense that seemed so good at the time, and hang their head in shame! Similar to someone driving a high performance car, then writing a review of the drive. They certainly wouldn't write the review WHILE driving, that would result would be at best unintelligible, and at worst fiery vehicular death!

Rather, their drug experiences changed their perception of things around them and the memory of this experience informed their creativity to some extent. Not everyone is going to like the psychedelic offerings of say, Hendrix or later Beatles, (I for one, love it) but in any case, I doubt much of it was produced WHILE they were out of it.

Beatles smoked hash in the studio while recording. Hendrix played at least a few gigs whilst on LSD. The Eagles wrote and recorded Hotel California and The Long Run whilst blitzed on coke. Steely Dan liked a smoke, Walter Becker became a heroin addict. The Doobie Brothers - clue's in the name, folks!

I'd have to argue that all of the best artists were either drunk or on drugs - or both- most of the time. When they get rich and older they clean up their acts. And then their music immediately becomes bland and prosaic.

[struth]

Cant imagine Frank Sinatra or Dino Martin taking drink or drugs;)

[walpurgis]

I think that a lot of prog rock requires some drug induced state to make it tolerable!

Geoff

Not "tolerable", but used for its intended purpose. Which was to boost the 'high', which is what much psychedelic rock and heavy rock etc. was written and recorded for.

[Pigmy Pony]

Played Pink Floyd's "Echoes" form their Meddle album on vinyl this morning, having my body hopped-up on two slices of toast with blackcurrant jam and a nice cup of tea :) Still good!

[Pete The Cat]

To the original question, have a listen to Barking by Ramz which reached no.2 in the charts earlier this year. Inane rhyming doesn't get close to describing it, apparently written and recorded in 24 hours although 24 minutes seems more likely...

When I were a lad a no.2 single often became cemented in music history, for example we all know Vienna. Not any more.

Pete

[Shovel_Knight]

There is some good quality pop music today. I’m more of a jazz and classic rock person but my wife (who worked as a radio DJ in the past) has been really educating me in terms of new music. I’m really enjoying such artists as St. Vincent, Bat for Lashes, Florence & The Machine, Colleen, Bon Iver and Benjamin Clementine to name a few (not sure they all can be properly classified as pop, but it’s all pop to me :D)

[Pete The Cat]

I'd agree with some of those as being strong artists. Pleading guilty to categorisation I'd see them as indie, but I get exactly what you mean. When folks refer to pop I think of predominantly non-album artist material in the Top 40. It seems to me that the pop of years ago left a legacy of some sort, even if it was The Birdie Song.

Pete

[Stratmangler]

It seems to me that the pop of years ago left a legacy of some sort, even if it was The Birdie Song

The Birdie Song was rubbish, but it at least had a catchy earworm of a tune.
That drivel you mentioned earlier by Ramz, calling it a number two is appropriate. If all music was this good I'd completely give up on listening to music :eyebrows:

[steveharman]

Don't know if this has been posted but while many of the themes will be familiar, it's interesting to see it all presented in one place:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVME_l4IwII

"And over there, there's broken bones
There's only new music, so that there's new ringtones"

(c) Arctic Monkeys

:-)

[oldius]

This thread reminds me of so many conversations that adults had with me when I was a kid. I remember thinking, "Old farts, what do they know?"

There is great stuff out there, just as there was, and just as there will be.

[walpurgis]

I remember my dad having a go at my older brother for listening to Fats Domino, Little Richard and Elvis. Saying "why do you listen to that dreadful rubbish" and then insisting that we listen to some Haydn.

That was an awfully long time ago. I was about eight years old.

[Macca]

I remember my dad having a go at my older brother for listening to Fats Domino, Little Richard and Elvis. Saying "why do you listen to that dreadful rubbish" and then insisting that we listen to some Haydn.

That was an awfully long time ago. I was about eight years old.

And I'm a generation after you and my father loved Fats Domino and Little Richard but would complain about the 'modern rubbish' me and my brothers listened to. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[montesquieu]

This thread reminds me of so many conversations that adults had with me when I was a kid. I remember thinking, "Old farts, what do they know?"

There is great stuff out there, just as there was, and just as there will be.

Have never argued otherwise. Only that the stuff in the charts is measurably less varied, less sophisticated, and more simplistic in lyrics, tunes, structure and harmonic richness, as well as being demonstrably badly produced (the noise wars). The clip looks at this and the (largely commercial) reasons why this, sadly, is so.

[Primalsea]

I think that nowadays non convention is much more readily accepted but also, sadly, what non convention is has been conventionalised into a rather bland conformist package. I do wonder that a lot of music that is genuinely new now just sounds awful to us but in years to come will be recognised as ground breaking, but sadly the artists will be long gone by that time and will remain largely unrecognised during their time.

[Minstrel SE]

I think its probably a more complex issue about ageing and we fall into the dad trap that we never thought possible. There has always been music we like and dont like around.

Our brains develop in a certain way and they even slow down.... shock horror. We get set in certain ways as the neuron paths form.

I cant listen to some music I had as a youngster. I think I generally got it right but Ive had some shockers in my collection from Showaddywaddy through Dire Straits :(

It took me 25 years to really get The Fall and get fully into Bob Dylan. I didnt come on to Leonard Cohen until late in his musical life. It took me 40 years to really like classical and opera

I think we get confused about nostalgia and pop music. I couldnt listen to Abba now (lord Ive tried :)) and I would take most of the Nicki Minaj rubbish over listening to thankyou for the music or Phil Collins. I mention Abba to stir it up because they are not as good as some people think

Sure Katy Perry and that twerking berk Cyrus get on my nerves but is it really any worse than the pop crap of yesteryear? Yes it seems more manufactured but that was always the nature of the pop machine. Maybe we dont like that the business seems more in our faces or we just see through it a bit more now. I have heard some toe tappers...not alf pop pickers :) but struggle to admit it.

Pop music is less innocent now which is probably a good thing in many ways

I love classical and opera now. I love Mark Hollis and just hearing the experimental brilliance of the later albums.

Basically it all boils down to our grandparents telling us they could hear and understand the words in "their day" I think we all get there in some way even though I like to think I have a John Peel enthusiasm for good new music.

[Tim]

Interesting view Martin, but I think that logic is as personal as our individual tastes - as we all have different experiences.

I loved Cohen and Dylan pretty much from the start, buying Songs of LC not too many years after release, when I first heard it. My first Dylan album was Desire and I've been a fan ever since, but I really, really got him about 10 years ago and he's one of my most played now. Bought Holst Planets Suite as a teenager on Music for Pleasure (yup I'm that old) so was on the classical train from early on too, as well as ELP, Floyd, Genesis, Zeppelin, Yes and Sabbath. Which were the mainstays of my early obsession passion with music, especially ELP.

I keep growing in all directions now, never thought I'd enjoy Country (that's a whole other subject, as Country isn't what I thought it was when I didn't like it!), but I do.

No idea where it comes from, my parents weren't musical, but we did have music on in the house from a Dansette (Swingin' Safari and the Black Watch), my brother possibly, as he was a Bowie and Tyrannosaurus Rex fan and me and my cousin (who now plays in a band) used to swap mix tapes in our teens.

I've never really enjoyed pop or mainstream ever, but I don't mind Abba.

So for me, pop music has always been pretty dire, modern is no exception apart from some bands who can cross over from being serious musicians and have pop appeal too. I think I get most of it from John Peel, Tommy Vance and Bob Harris - who I followed religiously from listening to a little radio in bed, when I should have been sleeping! I still listen to Bob Harris every week on his Thursday night Country Show.

So it is, as you say, a lot more complex ;)

[struth]

i kinda liked my musicians to be at least able to either sing in some decent way, preferably on key, be able to play their instruments properly and hopefully be able to write and arrange, but for many that is pie in the sky alas.
Abba; yes at least they can sing, and at least pick songs that are catchy(not sure who wrote em). Cohen had it all, although many will discount the first.;) not me.
Dylan, I got fro the start being a lover of that style with pete seager and Woodie Guthrie etc and of course being a old time blues fan too. Funnily enough im not so interested in dylan now; in fact most of his stuff now seems a bit "pat"

[Pigmy Pony]

I can enjoy a wide variety of music, including new releases, as long as the singer has a good voice. I often hear stuff I like on Radio 1, but when someone played Now 98 at Christmas, it was truly awful. Nearly all the vocals sounded like they were done by robots.

[Macca]

Abba; yes at least they can sing, and at least pick songs that are catchy(not sure who wrote em). "

ABBA wrote their own stuff, one of the blokes wrote it all in fact, not sure which one it was.

Might have been more influential than you think, 'Pretty Vacant' was ripped off from ABBA's 'SOS', according to Glen Matlock.

[Marco]

And I'm a generation after you and my father loved Fats Domino and Little Richard but would complain about the 'modern rubbish' me and my brothers listened to. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

It sounds rather more elegant in French: plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...;) Yup, as Geoff (Oldius) says, this is another old farts thread! :wheniwasaboy:

If you think all modern music is terrible, then quite simply, you're not getting out enough to assess the current scene, especially on the indie, rock/blues and electronic side of things, and expanding your tastes in music accordingly.

The good stuff I'm referring to might not be classified as "pop" (which is probably the key), as most modern "pop music", which I take mainly to be what fills the charts, is indeed dross. You need to move away from the mainstream.

If you dig a bit deeper, there are lots of great up and coming bands out there, but you need to do some exploring [and here file-based audio can help greatly in expanding one's musical horizons] and get to some gigs to discover it. You won't find it parked on your arse at home, playing the same old shite you've been listening to for the past 30 or 40 years, moaning about the state of things now like some piss-stained, slipper-shod granddad!:ner:

Middle-aged 'audiophiles' tend to be rather insular-minded, musically, and stuck in their ways, which is why they so often fail to see the wood from the trees...

One such new (blues/rock) band I discovered, when out with some mates at a pub in Chester, was Washington Reed. Just young guys, but fuck me do they have some SOUL. Pin your ears back and check this out [turn up loud]:

t1q-5c1hYug

Groovy, baby!!

:guitar::guitar:

Marco.

[Pete The Cat]

Linking this and some chats on other recent threads.

I don’t read the original question as being based on music today not being as good as when I were a lad. IMHO there’s probably as much good new music now as there ever was, much of it scattered across the internet where you need to look for it. The question is about “pop”, which is a specific slice of music.

I see pop as being mainstream-targeted, predominantly melody-based music promoted by single tracks. A barometer for it is the Top 40. So while I’m mindful of becoming my parents, it's still my perception that today’s Top 40 and national station playlists are more uniform than, say, in the ‘70s. In turn, that lack of diversity weakens modern pop by comparison.

Today’s charts are dominated by an incestuous merry-go-round of the same artists partnering each other. Have a quick look, 10 of last week’s Top 20 are collaborations. Listen to recent Now That's What I Call Music compilations and there's a homogeneity of genre, style and production. Pick up a cheap '70s compilation in Tesco as a comparison and you'll be hit by the difference.

Hence my holding up The Birdie Song as an exaggerated example of pop having been better in the past. I detested it when I was young and I do now, but - bear with me in trying to move from perception to fact here – in September ’81 it was in the charts alongside artists as diverse as Ottawan, Duran Duran, Cliff Richard, Teardrop Explodes, Bucks Fizz, The Police and Depeche Mode (I’m not going to list the whole chart, but a glance will show you the drift). Now if you’re thinking, OK I get the point about diversity but those were all cack as well, then at that time the chart also included Tainted Love, The Model, One In Ten and Start Me Up. I can’t say I personally like all of those singles but from a critical viewpoint I think that in the eyes of many they’re proven good pop songs and last week's chart hasn't a cat in hell's chance of matching that standard or range.

If you were to do a Now… compilation from September ’81 it would have greater breadth and strength than one today, so I buy the assumption in the OP’s statement.

Perhaps flippantly I mentioned Barking by Ramz in an earlier post. It's merely gormlessly abject in its baseness and every era has its dross. But at least Da Da Da had irony.

Pete

[Marco]

Good post, Pete! I completely concur.

"Pop music", as a mainstream music genre, I'd say has deteriorated since the period you mention, certainly in terms of diversity, if not necessarily 'quality', which of course is subjective. In that respect, who's to say that the Birdie Song is any better or worse than the latest from Bruno Mars?

That said, I agree that there's a distinctly homogenised element to the pop music being produced now, which makes everything sound rather 'samey', especially within mainstream dance music, and particularly amongst the female vocalists who populate that sector.

My point, extrapolating the discussion further, was simply that middle-aged audiophiles historically are creatures of habit, when it comes to the music that they listen to, and thus rather insular in their tastes - and so most need to get out more, or explore other avenues, in order to expand their musical horizons :)

Marco.

[Macca]

It sounds rather more elegant in French: plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...;) Yup, as Geoff (Oldius) says, this is another old farts thread! :wheniwasaboy:

If you think all modern music is terrible, then quite simply, you're not getting out enough to assess the current scene, especially on the indie, rock/blues and electronic side of things, and expanding your tastes in music accordingly.

The good stuff I'm referring to might not be classified as "pop" (which is probably the key), as most modern "pop music", which I take mainly to be what fills the charts, is indeed dross. You need to move away from the mainstream.

If you dig a bit deeper, there are lots of great up and coming bands out there, but you need to do some exploring [and here file-based audio can help greatly in expanding one's musical horizons] and get to some gigs to discover it. You won't find it parked on your arse at home, playing the same old shite you've been listening to for the past 30 or 40 years, moaning about the state of things now like some piss-stained, slipper-shod granddad!:ner:

Middle-aged 'audiophiles' tend to be rather insular-minded, musically, and stuck in their ways, which is why they so often fail to see the wood from the trees...

One such new (blues/rock) band I discovered, when out with some mates at a pub in Chester, was Washington Reed. Just young guys, but fuck me do they have some SOUL. Pin your ears back and check this out [turn up loud]:

t1q-5c1hYug

Groovy, baby!!

:guitar::guitar:

Marco.

I never said all modern music was terrible. Bought this the other day http://www.factmag.com/2017/05/04/black-grape-album-pop-voodoo-first-20-years/

It may be a new album but the band have been going years, they are from my generation so they've got some idea what they are doing.

There are only so many ways to put three chords together, and I don't see today's youth doing it as well as what went before. Like I said previously I often follow links to new music given on this forum and others and am almost always disappointed. Sometimes laugh-out-loud disappointed. 'London Grammar' are a classic example. People rave about that bland pap? Seriously?

Sorry if I am pissing on people's musical tastes but, well, I am :D

No way am I going to use valuable listening time listening to something new just because its new. (And by new I mean utterly derivative of what has gone before, and not even derivative in a good way, just total cack).

Screw that for a game of soldiers.

[Svend N]

One such new (blues/rock) band I discovered, when out with some mates at a pub in Chester, was Washington Reed. Just young guys, but fuck me do they have some SOUL. Pin your ears back and check this out [turn up loud]:

t1q-5c1hYug

Groovy, baby!!

:guitar::guitar:

Marco.

Excellent stuff! Love it. Thanks for posting that.

[Marco]

I never said all modern music was terrible. Bought this the other day http://www.factmag.com/2017/05/04/black-grape-album-pop-voodoo-first-20-years/

It may be a new album but the band have been going years, they are from my generation so they've got some idea what they are doing.

There are only so many ways to put three chords together, and I don't see today's youth doing it as well as what went before. Like I said previously I often follow links to new music given on this forum and others and am almost always disappointed. Sometimes laugh-out-loud disappointed. 'London Grammar' are a classic example. People rave about that bland pap? Seriously?

Sorry if I am pissing on people's musical tastes but, well, I am :D

No way am I going to use valuable listening time listening to something new just because its new. (And by new I mean utterly derivative of what has gone before, and not even derivative in a good way, just total cack).

Screw that for a game of soldiers.

Lol - before I answer that properly, what did you think of the Washington Reed music video I posted? Liked Black Grape, btw. Reminds me a little of The Fun Lovin' Criminals :)

Sven, you're welcome. In my opinion, those dudes are very talented, and when that video was produced most of them weren't long out of high school!

Marco.

[Macca]

Lol - before I answer that properly, what did you think of the Washington Reed music video I posted? Liked Black Grape, btw. Reminds me a little of The Fun Lovin' Criminals :)

Sven, you're welcome. In my opinion, those dudes are very talented, and when that video was produced most of them weren't long out of high school!

Marco.

It's okay, not really my sort of thing though.

[Marco]

Fair enough, but I think you'll agree it's representative of some decent new music, not likely to be found if you're too stuck in your ways! :)

How may folks here I wonder, including you, *actively seek out* new music that they might like, either by:

a) attending local gigs/live music events

b) reading music magazines, in paper form or online, and checking out some of the recommendations

c) listening to non-mainstream music content on the radio

d) visiting local independent record shops and checking out new music releases from bands you've not heard of before

I do all of those :cool:

Marco.

[montesquieu]

Fair enough, but I think you'll agree it's representative of some decent new music, not likely to be found if you're too stuck in your ways! :)

How may folks here I wonder, including you, *actively seek out* new music that they might like, either by:

a) attending local gigs/live music events

b) reading music magazines, in paper form or online, and checking out some of the recommendations

c) listening to non-mainstream music content on the radio

d) visiting local independent record shops and checking out new music releases from bands you've not heard of before

I do all of those :cool:

Marco.

Can't imagine you listening to chart pop music though Marco, which is what this thread at least started off being despairing about.

Yes there are plenty of decent bands and good new music around, the issue is that business imperatives have resulted in commercial pop - the lowest common denominator stuff that you can't avoid as you go around and about, whether it's at the barbers, the pictures, or the Co-op - has shrunk in scope, variety and ambition, in ways that are not a matter of opinion but are absolutely demonstrable (per the original clip). Regardless of what other good stuff is around, it's a matter for some sadness and regret that this has come to pass.

Being a classical guy, I don't tend to seek out bands and so on (I'm busy enough keeping up with my own favoured genres) so my main experience of 'today's' music is the mass-market pap that's everywhere and I have to say, it's no surprise to me that it's measurably less varied melodically, harmonically, rythmically or structurally, than what was around even 20 years ago never mind 40 or 50, while at the same time more and more being compressed to buggery in the loudness wars, as we can all hear.

It's kind of irrelevant that there is lots of other good stuff around if it is primarily this that the great unwashed are being exposed to. Our communal experience is being degraded and no amount of praise for non-mass market stuff can really get around that.

[Marco]

Can't imagine you listening to chart pop music though Marco, which is what this thread at least started off being despairing about.


Yeah sure, like I said, I was simply extrapolating the discussion to include a little bête noire of mine [boring creatures of habit, who lack adventurousness in their musical tastes].

However, I agree with every word you've just written :)

Marco.

[Svend N]

Fair enough, but I think you'll agree it's representative of some decent new music, not likely to be found if you're too stuck in your ways! :)

How may folks here I wonder, including you, *actively seek out* new music that they might like, either by:

a) attending local gigs/live music events

b) reading music magazines, in paper form or online, and checking out some of the recommendations

c) listening to non-mainstream music content on the radio

d) visiting local independent record shops and checking out new music releases from bands you've not heard of before

I do all of those :cool:

Marco.

Having two young daughters (19 and 21 y-o) really helps keep me connected to new stuff. They have great taste, for which I pat myself on the back a bit, as the indie music leanings of my youth have rubbed off on them. When they were much younger and developing their own taste in music, I always stressed quality, authenticity, originality, and genuine talent. I taught them to recognize posers and fake crap. So now I reap the rewards, as they will punt over a recommendation of band or song that they think I would like, and thus I get exposed to some really great new stuff....and vice-versa, I'll send stuff back to them. I love it! And much to my delight, they are developing a real taste for jazz and classical, and are creating some pretty cool playlists of these on Spotify.

Next step: start helping them build a vinyl collection. Now that is going to be fun!

As for your a-b-c-d list, yes, we all do each of those. Makes for a richer, more interesting life, don't you think?

Cheers,
Svend

[Crackles]

Can't imagine you listening to chart pop music though Marco, which is what this thread at least started off being despairing about.

Yes there are plenty of decent bands and good new music around, the issue is that business imperatives have resulted in commercial pop - the lowest common denominator stuff that you can't avoid as you go around and about, whether it's at the barbers, the pictures, or the Co-op - has shrunk in scope, variety and ambition, in ways that are not a matter of opinion but are absolutely demonstrable (per the original clip). Regardless of what other good stuff is around, it's a matter for some sadness and regret that this has come to pass.

Being a classical guy, I don't tend to seek out bands and so on (I'm busy enough keeping up with my own favoured genres) so my main experience of 'today's' music is the mass-market pap that's everywhere and I have to say, it's no surprise to me that it's measurably less varied melodically, harmonically, rythmically or structurally, than what was around even 20 years ago never mind 40 or 50, while at the same time more and more being compressed to buggery in the loudness wars, as we can all hear.

It's kind of irrelevant that there is lots of other good stuff around if it is primarily this that the great unwashed are being exposed to. Our communal experience is being degraded and no amount of praise for non-mass market stuff can really get around that.Perfectly put. It's not the lack of good new music being made, it's the lack of good new music being successful.

But on the plus side, I get to see some great artists in small venues for under £20.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Marco]

Having two young daughters (19 and 21 y-o) really helps keep me connected to new stuff. They have great taste, for which I pat myself on the back a bit, as the indie music leanings of my youth have rubbed off on them. When they were much younger and developing their own taste in music, I always stressed quality, authenticity, originality, and genuine talent. I taught them to recognize posers and fake crap. So now I reap the rewards, as they will punt over a recommendation of band or song that they think I would like, and thus I get exposed to some really great new stuff....and vice-versa, I'll send stuff back to them. I love it! And much to my delight, they are developing a real taste for jazz and classical, and are creating some pretty cool playlists of these on Spotify.

Next step: start helping them build a vinyl collection. Now that is going to be fun!

As for your a-b-c-d list, yes, we all do each of those. Makes for a richer, more interesting life, don't you think?


Absolutely! All I can say, Svend, is that you have my utter respect - the *perfect* set up [and congrats too, for bringing up your kids properly]! :respect: :youtheman:

Marco.

[Svend N]

Thank you Marco, for the kind words. I appreciate it :)

Warm regards,
Svend

[Macca]

I used to do everything on Marco's checklist, don't do any of that now. There was a time when there were more new records out that I wanted than I had money to buy. That dropped off a cliff about 15/20 years ago and has never come back. And I'm pretty sure it isn't me that has changed.

[Marco]

But a mixture of apathy and laziness (in simply ignoring and being unwilling to seek out new forms of music, under the premise that it's shit) won't facilitate the expanding of your musical tastes, which ably proves what I've said about most middle-aged audiophiles:eyebrows:

I know you'll always be married to your Steely Dan albums!;)

Marco.

[Macca]

If you've got all the Steely Dan, Led Zep and Hendrix you can pretty much do without the rest.

[struth]

I find the likes of Deezer or any of the others invaluable for exposing yourself to new stuff. It's like your personal old grey whistle test and your bob Harris. Lol

[Marco]

If you've got all the Steely Dan, Led Zep and Hendrix you can pretty much do without the rest.

:lolsign:

Can't fault you on wearing your 'old gits' badge with such pride! :wheniwasaboy:

Marco.

[Marco]

I find the likes of Deezer or any of the others invaluable for exposing yourself to new stuff. It's like your personal old grey whistle test and your bob Harris. Lol

Ha - indeed, but Martin's not for streaming either. Don't worry, we'll drag him kicking and screaming into the 21st century somehow!:D

Marco.

[Macca]

Well, being into music for the sake of it is a young man's game IMO. By the time your 40 you've seen it / heard it all before. Done better, usually. I still buy records but it is almost always old stuff I never got round to buying when it was new. Or more recently, to replace what already I have on vinyl with the CD.

Any genuine exploration I do now is pretty much limited to Jazz. And I'm already too old to have time to even scratch the surface there

[Minstrel SE]

Ive never really liked the term popular music as its a lazy catch all term invented a long time ago. There is plenty of good new indie music about from people with real imagination. I use the term indie to somehow define it away from pop but its all popular music in that sense.

I also think we have to discuss that what sells the most is not the definition of good taste. Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the taste/intelligence of.......... or how that quote goes. Plenty of number one records have been absolute crap

I think we probably have to define who the main culprits are and whether they are linked to the Fuller/ Cowell production machine I hate so much. The music companies do seem to be churning the crap out faster than ever before or may be thats just my perception.

The industry produce what sells so I cant really call them dark and sinister profiteers. We are all out to make some sort of living in this world. Maybe I feel that people are being told what to like on BGT so they buy it.

Madonna and Britney seem laughably innocent compared to this new lot but there has been a lot of so called popular music in the past that I considered to be shallow rubbish.

A lot of it sells to very young people and to be blunt I dont consider their musical brains fully formed. I hope they grow out of it :D

[walpurgis]

there has been a lot of so called popular music in teh past that I considered shallow rubbish

Ah, yes. That would be Mozart and others like him. The 'pop music' of the day.

[Marco]

For anyone living in the North Wales/Cheshire/Shropshire area, get ye along here to enjoy some good choons :https://nantwichjazz.com/

Should be great! :cool:

Marco.

[Minstrel SE]

I thought again and I really am coming over as snobby and elitist. We really can over analyse these things but with all music you either like it or you dont.

Lets leave it that Im at an age when I can ask the youngsters to turn that racket down :)

[Stratmangler]

I thought again and I really am coming over as snobby and elitist. We really can over analyse these things but with all music you either like it or you dont.

Lets leave it that Im at an age when I can ask the youngsters to turn that racket down :)

Sometimes the youngsters ask me to turn my bloody racket down :eyebrows:

[walpurgis]

Sometimes the youngsters ask me to turn my bloody racket down :eyebrows:

They're probably tired of listening to the same Bay City Rollers album over and over. :D

[Joe]

It all went pear-shaped around the time the Smiths split up. They were the last quality singles group.

[mikmas]

It all went pear-shaped around the time the Smiths split up.

I would say it all went pear-shaped the day The Smiths formed ....

[Macca]

In the old days there used to be a lot of shit but also a lot of good stuff. Now there is just a lot of shit. I think that's the difference.

Yesterday I was listening to AC-DC on massive JBLs and Tannoys at Frank Cooky's house (thanks Frank) and thinking 'There's no-one doing anything this good anymore'. Maybe because it has already all been done. Or maybe the younger generation have just not got a clue. I don't know.

[cooky]

I have to agree, one of my (mid 20's)stepsons last week asked me had I heard Radar Love? lol to which I said "yes of course..... have a load of this".over the JBL's, I then played him Ships in the Night from Bebop deluxe then Devils Answer by Atomic Rooster just to give him a taste of the standard of some 'pop chart ' singles back in the day and he was just blown away.

[mightymonoped]

Given the huge changes in the commercial aspects of mass consumption of music these days (as compared to the 60’s - 90’s), I find this kind of question slightly irritating.

People’s listening habits and value judgements are always going to make this question a personal hotbed.

As always, people will jump in with metrics to prove their point and we’ll go off on some peripheral discussion (possibly based of a flaky or subjective premise) to support their world view.

The challenge of survival for the working musician (‘pop’ or otherwise) is not the same as it was even ten years ago.

The consumption of music has changed, as many ‘streaming’ discussions on this forum will confirm.

Ok, my personal opinion bit.. [emoji4]

First off, plenty of good new music is still around, you just need to know where to find it.

The nature of commercial music has been subject to all of the consolidation and constraints that have made working musicians survival so challenging.

This has resulted in the lack of musical diversity on the main channels to some extent, as new music is finding alternative routes (home grown labels, bandcamp, Soundcloud, Youtube, etc etc).

Any attempt to look at ‘pop’ today compared to ‘pop’ decades ago and arrive at a meaningful statement about the health of music is an exercise in futility in my humble opinion.

Far more interesting question to me about ‘now’ and ‘then’ revolve around the impact on listening habits in the era of ‘the soundbite culture’ and instant access to a global catalogue of music?

There, I’ve got it out of my system.


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[anthonyTD]

Just heard, Kylie is no1 again :doh:
Seriously, this is the main reason Ed Sheeran [And I am not knocking him] can have 14 songs in the hit parade,[showing my age] all at the same time!
There doesent seem to be any diverse competition being promoted these days, plenty of talent out there, but very few match the "criteria" what ever that is!:scratch:

[Stratmangler]

Just heard, Kylie is no1 again :doh:

I was going to post in defence of Kylie, but I've just had the album on, and it's fcking awful.
Everything is sequenced, time aligned and auto tuned until it squeaks, complete with millennial whoops.
There's no musical performance as such.

I turned it off halfway though the second track, and put Radio 2 on, which had Michael Ball chatting with guest Julian Clary, and that was fine, up until the point that soem "music" came up.
This time it was more of the same kind of shite that I heard on the Kylie album, only this time it was by someone called Zara Larsson.

I'm quite traumatised by the sorry experience, truth be told :eek:

[Stratmangler]

I'm feeling a bit better now that I got the above off my chest :)

[Sherwood]

I swore to myself that I would not be drawn into this thread again, but here I am (or should that be hear I am?).

In an nutshell:

a) why do we assume that the "charts" are an accurate barometer of popular taste?

b) why do we assume that the ability of musicians to create innovative and emotionally engaging music has somehow declined after (perhaps) millenia, and certainly centuries? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDZdU-snqTs

c) why can we not accept that we are subject to a high degree of bias in our musical preferences in terms of when we first heard the music we like and when that was in our personal development? I am guessing that most of those on this frum are (like myself) 50 plus.

d) Is it not arrogance of the highest order to assume that we are somehow "of a golden age" of musical endeavour? Most of the creators of the music of the 50's and 60's considered it a disposable commodity.

I could go on (ad nauseum) but I am even boring myself ....

Geoff

[Joe]

After a certain age (let's say 30 to make it round figures) it's just plain weird to take any interest in pop music beyond tutting loudly and complaining about 'young people today', unless you're Simon Cowell.

[mightymonoped]

After a certain age (let's say 30 to make it round figures) it's just plain weird to take any interest in pop music beyond tutting loudly and complaining about 'young people today', unless you're Simon Cowell.

I don’t know about pop music but I’m quite happy to be considered weird! [emoji13]


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