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hifinutt
28-02-2010, 19:16
i noticed that very few of the exhibitions at the bristol show were using class d amps . I was wondering if this is just prejudice or because they may have lower damping factors .

my refs have a damping factor of over 1000 which is considered high in this article but something like a belles mb200 monoblock has a damping factor of over 2000 .

"UNDERSTANDING DAMPING FACTOR
Loudspeakers have a mind of their own. You send them a signal and they add their own twist to it. They
keep on vibrating after the signal has stopped, due to inertia. That's called "ringing" or "time smearing."
In other words, the speaker produces sound waves that are not part of the original signal.
Suppose the incoming signal is a "tight" kick drum with a short attack and decay in its signal envelope.
When the kick-drum signal stops, the speaker continues to vibrate. The cone bounces back and forth in its
suspension. So that nice, snappy kick drum turns into a boomy throb.
Fortunately, a power amplifier can exert control over the loudspeaker and prevent ringing. Damping is the
ability of a power amplifier to control loudspeaker motion. It's measured in Damping Factor, which is load
impedance divided by amplifier output impedance. Let's explain.
If the speaker impedance is 8 ohms, and the amplifier output impedance is 0.01 ohms, the damping factor
is 800. That's a simplication. Since the speaker impedance and amplifier output impedance vary with fre-
quency, so does the damping factor. Also, the impedance of the speaker cable affects damping. Thick
cables (with low AWG) allow more damping than thin cables with (high AWG).
The lower the amplifier's output impedance, the higher the damping factor, and the tighter the sound is. A
damping factor of 1000 or greater is considered high. High damping factor equals tight bass.
How It Works
How does an amplifier control speaker motion? When the loudspeaker cone vibrates, it acts like a micro-
phone, generating a signal from its voice coil. This signal generated by the speaker is called back EMF
(back Electro Motive Force). It travels through the speaker cable back into the amplifier output, then
returns to the speaker. Since back EMF is in opposite polarity with the speaker's motion, back EMF
impedes or damps the speaker's ringing.
The smaller the amp's output impedance, the greater is the effect of back EMF on the speaker's motion.
An amplifier with low output impedance does not impede the back EMF, so the back EMF drives the loud-
speaker with a relatively strong signal that works against the speaker's motion. When the speaker cone
moves out, the back EMF pulls the speaker in, and vice versa.
In short, the loudspeaker damps itself through the amplifier output circuitry. The lower the impedance of
that output circuitry, the more the back EMF can control the speaker's ringing.
To prove it to yourself, take a woofer that is not connected to anything. Put your ear next to the cone and
tap on it. You might hear a low-pitched "bongggg" if the speaker itself is poorly damped. Now short the
speaker terminals and tap again. You should hear a tighter thump.
Damping factor varies with frequency. As you might suspect, damping factor is most important at low fre-
quencies, say 10 Hz to 400 Hz. "

so any idea why class d not used more at the shows ?

hifi_dave
28-02-2010, 19:26
Cor, takes me right back to the 70's that. Using Damping Factor as the guide to the quality of an amp....:eek:

We'll all be checking out 'Slew rate' next....

goraman
28-02-2010, 19:34
My tube amp has a dampaning factor of 5 not 500 or 5000 but 5.
This is why tube gear needs large 6AWG cables made of silver in teflon to keep the impeadance very low.

Tube amps seem to need less global feed back to controle bass freqs. I'm not sure why that is mabey due to a shorter path inside the amp.

goraman
28-02-2010, 19:35
Cor, takes me right back to the 70's that. Using Damping Factor as the guide to the quality of an amp....:eek:

We'll all be checking out 'Slew rate' next....

And don't forget RISE TIME! Babey Yah!

anthonyTD
28-02-2010, 19:56
good thread,
high damping factor is in theory a very desireable aspect for any amplifier, but [and there is always a but] some would argue that too high a damping factor can suck the life out of the music by over damping transients etc, this [IMHO] is one of the reasons why valve amplifiers and very efficient speakers and therefore naturaly damped due to their low mass can be very rewarding, even though the damping factor of any valve amp in comparison when measured against most solid state amps is pants!:eek:
A...

smithy
28-02-2010, 21:26
Maybe its sound quality rather than damping factor at issue,a Crown K2 is class D no shortage of damping factor there.

Marco
28-02-2010, 22:02
Hi Smithy,

Are you citing a Crown K2 as something that sounds particularly good (or maybe I've misunderstood you)? If so, that's contrary to what I've heard ;)

Those things sound as rough as baboon's arse, and equally as subtle! My apologies, though, if that is not what you meant.

Marco.

Themis
01-03-2010, 08:14
Most class D amplifiers have poor measures of distortion and a frequency response which is tortured depending on the speaker impedance, far from the flat FR of any AB amp. Perhaps this is more the reason than the damping factor ? ;)

Dave Cawley
01-03-2010, 09:07
There were several people using Class D at Bristol. However Cass D amps can have a high, or a low damping factor depending on how they are designed.

Dave

DSJR
01-03-2010, 09:46
This is one reason for the inevitable and eventual advance of active systems, where the amps and drivers can be designed to match correctly, rather than to make an amp that tries to be all things to all men..

Old high impedance speakers with high damping of their own won't need an amp with high damping (like a typical trannie coupled valve amp). My BC2's, as with many speakers with the "BBC Legacy," are underdamped and need a taut amp to hold them together IMO and the Crown D-60's I used in bridged form still have more than enough damping factor to sort the BC2's out, with NO lack of sound quality.

I fully agree that a highly damped amp driving a highly damped speakers can sound rather hideous and this goes back to proper matching again...

Macca
01-03-2010, 10:03
And don't forget RISE TIME! Babey Yah!

:lolsign:

But I notice that HFW have started quoting damping factor in their amplifier reviews...

DSJR
01-03-2010, 10:17
They regard a figure of "50" as a high value. My amps are around 1000 (500 in bridged mode).....

Inboth my system and HiFi dave's setups, my Quad II's (with low bass damping I suspect), didn't appear to have much bass extension, sounding rolled off if anything, so *just* using one factor isn't enough..

I've also heard decent valve amps appearing to have as much "power" as a solid state equivalent with three times the WPC or more. I wonder what it could be?

The Grand Wazoo
01-03-2010, 10:23
So, in what circumstances would a low damping factore be required?
I ask this because some amps have switchable damping factors - 2 of mine, included.

Macca
01-03-2010, 10:37
They regard a figure of "50" as a high value. My amps are around 1000 (500 in bridged mode).....

Inboth my system and HiFi dave's setups, my Quad II's (with low bass damping I suspect), didn't appear to have much bass extension, sounding rolled off if anything, so *just* using one factor isn't enough..

I've also heard decent valve amps appearing to have as much "power" as a solid state equivalent with three times the WPC or more. I wonder what it could be?

My impression was that as a rough guide low damping factor gives 'more bass but loose' bass and high damping gives 'less bass but deeper and tighter bass'? Dunno about the valve power thing - maybe that's the slew rate in action:lol:

hifinutt
04-03-2010, 11:07
There were several people using Class D at Bristol. However Cass D amps can have a high, or a low damping factor depending on how they are designed.

Dave

thanks dave , i didn`t spot any .