Dipping my toes into the World of Valves

[mightymonoped]

Have decided to trade in the AA Puccini and have ordered an Icon Audio Stereo 20PP.

I figure the power won't be an issue as I never listen at volume in the flat and the MS 700 are reasonably easy to drive.

At this point in time I'm happy to compromise on the top and bottom ends in order to experience a bit of midrange heaven.

Now looking forward to listening to this interesting mix of decades.... 2017 (Allo BOSS DAC), 50's amp design foundation (20PP) and 70's speakers (MS 700) :)

Tony

[walpurgis]

Have you listened to the amp you're buying?

[mightymonoped]

Not on my speakers in my room as there's no practical way of me doing that but did listen when getting my amp serviced recently (there were a few IA amp models in the audition room). The Little Dot Mk II has also been showing me some of what I've been missing too.

[walpurgis]

Not wishing to be negative, the amp may sound fine with your MS speakers, but I had one briefly and it did not work happily with my Tannoys.

[mightymonoped]

I guess it's always going to be a risk if you can't audition in your own environment but I've tried to mitigate the risks by going for a reputable (and UK based) brand, that will be easy to shift if it doesn't work out. What were the issues for you Geoff?

[walpurgis]

There was nothing wrong with the frequency balance, but I found the sound a bit flat and two dimensional. The "midrange heaven", as you describe it, was not there for me, which is most unusual for an EL84 amp. The Tannoys are very revealing and are easy to drive. They display amp characteristics very well.

Hopefully it will be fine in your system, but as you say, it's an amp that would be easy to sell on.

Icon Audio amps are made by MingDa (Meixing) in China to Icon's spec. Some are direct derivatives of MingDa models. MingDa amps are some of the best to come from China. There are a few members using them happily. I own a MingDa TVC pre-amp and that's not going anywhere.

[mightymonoped]

Ah ok. Will just have to wait and see if it meets expectation then. I was looking at the MingDa Piccolo option but thought it a little bit easier (from an affordability point of view) to try out the Icon as a starter. "Two dimensional" is definitely not part of the heaven I'm looking for either, so I'm hoping it'll work out ok.

[Haselsh1]

Back in 2012 Sue and I owned a Stereo 20 PP that we ran into KEF Q500's and it sounded just fine at that time. The best thing we did with it was to change the driver valves to Genalex Gold Lions with gold pins and the whole sound was transformed. We then changed the EL84's for Gold Lions and were disappointed. It is a fine sounding amplifier as low output valve types go but if you are expecting Leak sound quality be ready to be highly disappointed. This amplifier has its own sound.

At the time we bought ours it was a 500 quid amplifier but now I think it is way too expensive when compared to others.

[mightymonoped]

Thanks Sean,
It's on a 90 day no quibble refund/exchange as well, so if I can't live with the sound, it will be going back. I don't really have any comparable valve-based expectations to be honest as my experience is really entry-level. It's a foot in the door really. If it's not a hopeless case from day one then I'll look at upgrading the driver valves. :-)

[Haselsh1]

Personally I don't think that anything that is the best part of a grand is entry level. Entry level for valves quite possibly unless you import some dodgy Chinese box of components. The Stereo 20 PP is a damn fine valve amplifier but we found that it only really suited simple acoustic music. Bach's cello suites played by Yo Yo Ma sounded sublime as did acoustic guitar along the lines of Paco De Lucia but really serious prog or anything heavily confused it did not like. I think to be honest it needed loudspeakers beyond the abilities of our KEF's. Maybe standmounts slightly bright and breezy would have been so much better.

[mightymonoped]

Yes, I didn't want to take on the import minefield at this point, so unless you're going 'used', a grand pretty much is entry level it seems :(
I did take it's limitations into consideration as far as the type of music I'll be listening to is concerned. The majority of my listening tends to be vocal/acoustic these days. I'm sure there will be some stuff that it will struggle with but I think I can live with that for now.

[Haselsh1]

In the words of my long lost father; "It's a bit raucous". That is the kind of thing the Stereo 20 PP does not like. I think that combined with loudspeakers that are aimed mainly at vocal reproduction it will really shine.

[wee tee cee]

PM sent...

[RothwellAudio]

...we found that it only really suited simple acoustic music. Bach's cello suites played by Yo Yo Ma sounded sublime as did acoustic guitar along the lines of Paco De Lucia but really serious prog or anything heavily confused it did not like. I think to be honest it needed loudspeakers beyond the abilities of our KEF's.

I think the measure of a good amplifier is how well it copes with complex music. There are lots of flea-power amplifiers that sound great with simple music (or maybe not simple music, but with few instruments), but they fall apart when faced with busy/complex music with many instruments doing different things. I doubt the blame lay with the KEFs.

[Haselsh1]

I think the measure of a good amplifier is how well it copes with complex music. There are lots of flea-power amplifiers that sound great with simple music (or maybe not simple music, but with few instruments), but they fall apart when faced with busy/complex music with many instruments doing different things. I doubt the blame lay with the KEFs.

Well Andrew Sue and I loved the KEF's and although we have a 'better' pair of speakers now these new ones have around an octave missing from the bottom end that was clearly here on the Q500's. They were a really nice pair of speakers.
I don't really miss the Icon Audio amp though.

[RothwellAudio]

Yes, I've heard some great sounding KEFs. Definitely good speakers.

[jandl100]

Good luck with it, Tony.

My gosh - what a lot of negative vibes! :doh:
It sounds to me like you know exactly what you are doing and have a realistic set of expectations - which with my own (quite extensive) experience of el84 amps I would expect to be exceeded!
Nice things, I love them to bits although I haven't come across your particular model.

No, they won't shake the walls and have plaster dust coming down with most speakers, but by the sound of it that isn't your objective. They do usually get to the heart of the music, though. el84 are my favourite power valve for that very reason. Others valve types I have tried can be more 'impressive', but none are more musical imho.

Tannoys. Yes, well. I thought it was generally recognised these days that you want 50wpc of push-pull valve amp to get a proper grip on them?
Two el84 a side can't be expected to do that.

Nice review - which I am sure you have seen! - here http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/icon-stereo-20pp--pound;500/8887

[mightymonoped]

Good luck with it, Tony.

My gosh - what a lit of negative vibes! :doh:
It sounds to me like you know exactly what you are doing and have a realistic set of expectations - which with my own (quite extensive) experience of el84 amps I would expect to be exceeded!
Nice things, I love them to bits although I haven't come across your particular model.

No, they won't shake the walls and have plaster dust coming down with most speakers, but by the sound of it that isn't your objective. They do usually get to the heart of the music, though. el84 are my favourite power valve for that very reason. Others I have tried can be more 'impressive', but none are more musical imho.

Tannoys. Yes, well. I thought it was generally recognised these days that you want 50wpc of push-pull valve amp to get a proper grip on them?
Two el84 a side can't be expected to do that.

Thanks Jerry!

Yes, getting nearer to the heart of the music is exactly what I'm looking for, within the limitations of my current environment of course. :)

[walpurgis]

Tannoys. Yes, well. I thought it was generally recognised these days that you want 50wpc of push-pull valve amp to get a proper grip on them?
Two el84 a side can't be expected to do that.

Not so.

The twelve watt Leak Stereo 20 has a pair of EL84's per side and can drive Tannoys perfectly well.

I've used 200 watt plus amps with Tannoys, but it's absolutely not necessary. I drove mine with 15 watt monos for years and had plenty of grip, and more than enough power.

[Lerxst]

Good luck with it, Tony.

My gosh - what a lot of negative vibes! :doh:


Echoes my feeling about this thread so far.

If it has a 90-day return policy, what the heck? I had a pair of MS 700s for years and only changed them recently. I liked them a lot but found them to be a little bit clinical but nicely detailed. I think your amp may balance them nicely actually. Are you using the ballast chamber at the bottom of the MS 700s? I put 5KG of screws into each of mine and it tightened bass nicely, not that it was bad before, but it gave a fuller sound to acoustic instruments as well.

Am interested in what you think cos the MS 700s have a a nice mid range I think.

I am also especially interested in how you find the amp's power. Those speakers are 8 ohm if I remember.

[mightymonoped]

I haven't done anything with the MS 700 s other than raise them on stands, which really helped tighten things up. Will have to have a look at the ballast option. :-) They've seen off bigger and smaller speakers I've had that were more 'impressive', or had better imaging, simply because I find vocals on them to be more natural and beguiling.

[mikeyb]

Not so.

The twelve watt Leak Stereo 20 has a pair of EL84's per side and can drive Tannoys perfectly well.

I've used 200 watt plus amps with Tannoys, but it's absolutely not necessary. I drove mine with 15 watt monos for years and had plenty of grip, and more than enough power.Yip, the WAD EL84 power amp that Tony is selling was excellent on my Tannoys, I think it's only about 15-18w and I could get to 10 on the Spinal Tap scale only reason I spent £100's more was because I wanted to get to 11 [emoji6] [emoji23]

[alphaGT]

I put 5KG of screws into each of mine and it tightened bass nicely, not that it was bad before, but it gave a fuller sound to acoustic instruments .


Ok, I’ve gotta ask. Why did you put 15 pounds of screws in your speaker? Does it matter what size screws you use? Do #8’s sound better than 1/4-20’s?



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[Lerxst]

Ok, I’ve gotta ask. Why did you put 15 pounds of screws in your speaker? Does it matter what size screws you use? Do #8’s sound better than 1/4-20’s?



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A legit question. I have to tell you, some thought went into it. Here's the story.

I thought I had nailed it with nails at first, but didn't like the colour. Then tacks caught my fancy but my friends thought they were, well, tacky. In the end I settled on iron screws with a beautiful zinc coating. Exquisite. Also cheap.

"Iron: It is heavier than sand, and cheaper than Uranium 235!" as we say in the UK.

We don't really say that.

Advice for all members: The smaller the screw, the better the weight to volume ratio.

The "irony" of course is that it didn't screw up anything - the bass was tremendous after that!


Sorry, I had the MS 900s, not the 700s. What was I thinking? Sorry. Don't think ballast can be done on yours.

[mightymonoped]

[QUOTE=alphaGT;936032]Ok, I’ve gotta ask. Why did you put 15 pounds of screws in your speaker? Does it matter what size screws you use? Do #8’s sound better than 1/4-20’s?

A legit question. I have to tell you, some thought went into it. Here's the story.

I thought I had nailed it with nails at first, but didn't like the colour. Then tacks caught my fancy but my friends thought they were, well, tacky. In the end I settled on iron screws with a beautiful zinc coating. Exquisite. Also cheap.

"Iron: It is heavier than sand, and cheaper than Uranium 235!" as we say in the UK.

We don't really say that.

Advice for all members: The smaller the screw, the better the weight to volume ratio.

The "irony" of course is that it didn't screw up anything - the bass was tremendous after that!


Sorry, I had the 900s, not the 700s. What was I thinking? Sorry. Don't think ballast can be done on yours.

Yes, mine are not even the 700, they're the 400! :lol:

[walpurgis]

[QUOTE=Lerxst;936219]

Yes, mine are not even the 700, they're the 400! :lol:

The MS400 are nice.

[Lerxst]

[QUOTE=Lerxst;936219]

Yes, mine are not even the 700, they're the 400! :lol:

We'll get there in the end. :)

[mightymonoped]

Well it’s here, and I have a smile on my face! I swapped the stock drivers for some Genalex Gold Lion ECC82/83 and it’s sounding great so far. Seems to drive the MS400 very easily and there’s no shortage of bass even at low volumes. Space, air and effortless musicality so far. Now I have to listen to my entire music collection over the next few weeks as it beds in. [emoji4]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180131/30d551c330c4dd48bf07eac850dc468a.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180131/0ba6ae70f1bd3295bfc0d52cbcb0b1c9.jpg


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[jandl100]

Very nice. :thumbsup:

[Si74]

Never understood all this hype about Genalex Gold Lions? The real ones are fabulous and ludicrously overpriced for what's usually way past it crap, the new copies bear no resemblance and are generally crap. Stick it in a fancy box and charge way over the odds.

[mightymonoped]

Never understood all this hype about Genalex Gold Lions? The real ones are fabulous and ludicrously overpriced for what's usually way past it crap, the new copies bear no resemblance and are generally crap. Stick it in a fancy box and charge way over the odds.

Never understood the value in pissing on other people’s happiness, it’s a funny old world innit?


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[jandl100]

Yep.
This seems to be one of those threads, sadly. A whole bunch of negativity.
Don't worry about it - if it sounds good, it is good.
We've all got different tastes and goals.
- Shaun recommends the Gold Lion tubes, Simon doesn't. Ok.
It seems like your valve experiment has been a success to me!

[Haselsh1]

Never understood all this hype about Genalex Gold Lions? The real ones are fabulous and ludicrously overpriced for what's usually way past it crap, the new copies bear no resemblance and are generally crap. Stick it in a fancy box and charge way over the odds.

Well it certainly wasn't any kind of hype when I swapped my stock valves for gold pinned Gold Lions.

[Haselsh1]

A massive well done Tony. You'll have people telling you now that valves are a load of outdated crap. Funny that because so is vinyl which also sounds so superior when you get it right. The thing that gets me about valves is that liquid purity in the midrange that I have never heard from transistors in forty years of listening. For those who simply don't get the gold pinned Gold Lion thing, just put your original valves back in after a month or so of listening and you'll quite clearly hear that it is just a load of hype (not).

[Haselsh1]

Never understood the value in pissing on other people’s happiness, it’s a funny old world innit?


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There aren't many people on here that do this, just a few and it's not just directed at hi-fi either.

[mightymonoped]

No worries, all part of life’s rich tapestry. I’m just looking forward to getting in after work later and having another listening session. [emoji4]


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[southall-1998]

Sweet amp that little Icon Audio. Enjoy!

Feck what the haters say!!

S.

[mightymonoped]

Sweet amp that little Icon Audio. Enjoy!

Feck what the haters say!!

S.

Always do! [emoji13]


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[Si74]

No problem , fools and their money, Look at it and nearly all the valves you can buy are produced in the same factory, fancy box, fancy price.....
Sovteks for a fraction of the price and you won't blow up your amps! Negative... no just a realist, check out people who really know about valves opinions
on the new Gold Lions, have heard them, not impressed and certainly not stupid enough to pay their inflated prices for bullshit and a fancy box so keep
buttering your selfs up boys:-)

[Bigman80]

Seems to be a very negative vibe on the forum lately.

The guy has spent his hard earned cash on something he wanted and you keep pissing on his chips!

Give it a rest.

Buy whatever valves you want, listen to whatever you want, as long as it's making you happy it's money well spent. Nothing wrong with tube rolling. I've had great results from it and found a sweet spot with Telefunken valves. Whilst not cheap I think they are worth it.

Valves make sweet music and Icon are well made and get a good rep. Just enjoy it. [emoji6]

[mightymonoped]

Well, spent the while evening with loved ones yesterday, eating good home-cooked food and listening to music in lots of different ways.

Firstly as background while I prepped the meal and then as we all sate, ate and played catchup.

My youngest lad came up from London to stay for the night and play me the latest cut on five new songs they have recently added real piano and strings to. Still need to sort levels out but we had a nice time listening in detail and discussing options.

As he was familiar with my old setup, we then had a protracted session listening to familiar tracks on headphone and speakers and commenting on the changes we heard. All of it favourable I might add [emoji4]. Finally, we all sat back and played new tracks and artists we’d been impressed by lately. We do this quite often and it’s a great musical cross-pollination, he gets to hear music from outside of his normal peer group and I get the best from his household of young professional musicians working in and around London. It’s a very healthy musical environment.

In all of this, the new amp acquitted itself effortlessly, the music was the focus, as it should be and we ended the evening richer for it.

I consider that as time and money well spent.

Toes dipped successfully. [emoji4]


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[Bigman80]

Well, spent the while evening with loved ones yesterday, eating good home-cooked food and listening to music in lots of different ways.

Firstly as background while I prepped the meal and then as we all sate, ate and played catchup.

My youngest lad came up from London to stay for the night and play me the latest cut on five new songs they have recently added real piano and strings to. Still need to sort levels out but we had a nice time listening in detail and discussing options.

As he was familiar with my old setup, we then had a protracted session listening to familiar tracks on headphone and speakers and commenting on the changes we heard. All of it favourable I might add [emoji4]. Finally, we all sat back and played new tracks and artists we’d been impressed by lately. We do this quite often and it’s a great musical cross-pollination, he gets to hear music from outside of his normal peer group and I get the best from his household of young professional musicians working in and around London. It’s a very healthy musical environment.

In all of this, the new amp acquitted itself effortlessly, the music was the focus, as it should be and we ended the evening richer for it.

I consider that as time and money well spent.

Toes dipped successfully. [emoji4]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI love that. Music can bring people together and the Icon played it's part.

That's what it's all about.

[anthonyTD]

Hi All,
Only just read the las few pages, as for valves, well, being in the trade for well over 20 years now I feel I am in a position to offer some advice.
Good new old stock valves ie; Mullard, GEC, Tesla [not JJ] RAC, Sylvania, Telefunken etc, etc are commanding very high prices now, and to a degree its warranted as once they are gone, there will never be any made to that same standard again,However; not all NOS valves are equal in terms of Quality, there were obvious bad batches, and the valves like today' were graded, The big end users got what we class as Grade one stock, and the rest' depending on your buying power filtered down through the ranks.
Nothing has changed, when you buy modern valves, get them from the most reputable supplies out there, you will then at least have a better chance of getting high grade versions, this I feel is one reason some folks opinions differ greatly with their own experiences of different valves etc.
One valve thats been mentioned here the Genalex Gold lion, well, I can tell you, as far as construction is concerned; it bears little resemblance to the original GEC version, but never the less, if you get good ones, they are decent enough for the money, although compared to my absolute favorite modern KT88, the original Svetlana Winged C,s [now sadly no more, due mainly I suspect to financial difficulty] its reliability, and longevity is no match. Both valves however; have a sonic presentation that can please in the right equipment.
A...

[mightymonoped]

At the risk of stirring up the hornet's nest again, I have replaced the stock Chinese EL84 valves with a matched quad of NOS Reflektor 6P14P valves picked up for a very reasonable sum (very much inline with Sovtek etc costs).

Haven't had a chance for an extended listening session yet, but the quick run through last night was very encouraging indeed!

Onwards and upwards! :D

[Haselsh1]

My recommendation for Gold Lions only applies to my experience with them and only applies to the gold pinned ECC82 and ECC83. I have used their EL84's as well in the very amplifier being discussed here but I did not rate them over the stock valves. The ECC's though made a bloody big difference.

It is so bloody good to hear that you had one of those magical listening sessions. They are quite rare. You know the moment though because everyone in the room is silent, focusing on the sound the music is making. I bloody love it. For me this kind of thing is much more common with vinyl. Love valves, love the purity of that midrange and that liquidity in the voice. Also, with my current setup, loving the cavernous stereo image which was helped no end by the amplifier setup.

Really pleased you have such a fab amplifier and really pleased you are enjoying it so much.

[mightymonoped]

My recommendation for Gold Lions only applies to my experience with them and only applies to the gold pinned ECC82 and ECC83. I have used their EL84's as well in the very amplifier being discussed here but I did not rate them over the stock valves. The ECC's though made a bloody big difference.

It is so bloody good to hear that you had one of those magical listening sessions. They are quite rare. You know the moment though because everyone in the room is silent, focusing on the sound the music is making. I bloody love it. For me this kind of thing is much more common with vinyl. Love valves, love the purity of that midrange and that liquidity in the voice. Also, with my current setup, loving the cavernous stereo image which was helped no end by the amplifier setup.

Really pleased you have such a fab amplifier and really pleased you are enjoying it so much.

Thanks Shaun,
I did draw on your experience of the gold pinned ECC82 and ECC83 (and also some digging around with other's opinions), hence starting with these first as I have read from several different source that this would have the biggest impact on the overall 'sound'.

Some additional research as far as the EL84 are concerned led me along the 6P14P path, as this seemed to be a reasonable compromise of quality and life-expectancy tied in with an agreeable sound.

Can't wait to get home and give it a real listen now as initial impressions were very positive in terms of soundstage, imaging and a noticeable tightening and control of bass.

[jandl100]

I have replaced the stock Chinese EL84 valves with a matched quad of NOS Reflektor 6P14P valves

Yup, those are my preferred el84 equivalent. :thumbsup: