View Full Version : British vs.Yankee presentation
I've been listening to decent gear since birth in 1966 haveing been raised with hifi and have owned alot of gear over the years.
My stereo is a 40/40/20 mix of American,British and some Chinese of high quality.
My speakers are British Mission 762i with upgraded crossovers and internal wire.
American speakers give a 3rd row preformance like JBL,the Klipsch RB81,Polk,Infinity ect...
British speakers used to sound much the same like my older Missions then at some point in the late 90's something changed and companys started voiceing there speakers to sound as if you where in the 6th or 8th row,for example Audio Note UK ANK,ANJ and ANE.
Now it seems as the more expencive the speaker the farther you are from the preformance.(like hearing a concert from the house next door)
Im told Brits listen to music differantly.
I like to be 3 to 4 tables away from the preformance in a small night club or pub,so I like my stereo to reproduce a live sounding example.
Seems you would have to build a wall of thick mattresess and hay bails around the band to get the Brittish sound.
My hope is that someone from the UK will explaine the differance to me.I'm not knockin British gear,I love Audion,Audio Note,Thorens ect...
I just don't get the concept of hearing no fret noise in a string gutar,or the buzz in a reed insterment and all the internal noise of a singer.
and the whole listener fatigue thing.I think it was made up to premote the answer to a problem that didn't exist.
I mean the country that gave us Led Zepplin,The Who,the Kinks,the Stones,and those 4 guys in the yellow submarine? oh yah...The Beatles!
Wouldn't mind a 3rd or 4th row preformace?
What are you guys doing over there? Enlighten me.
:rave: or :sofa:
If I'm wrong then OK Ksura sura... But I've never asked someone from Eroupe before what it's all about.
Do you guys think it has gone to far?, It would be cheaper to just buy some 3rd row American speakers and throw a couple of thick wool blankets over them.
Why is this pricey new trend getting so much traction,Is it because everything else has been done? and we audio consumers need the next new or just differnt thing?
I mean we went from tubes to solid state now back to tubes. Records to CD's now back to records.Will speakers go back to a closer preformance and adds will read "like your right near the stage" ART DUDLEY will rave about KLipsch next?
There are some of us over hear who love bags of resolution dynamics and scale!
There are some of us over hear who love bags of resolution dynamics and scale!
Couldn't have said it better myself. But then, the only British equipment in my system is from Chord - the rest is all foreign :doh:
The Grand Wazoo
26-02-2010, 08:03
Hi,
Sorry I don't know your first name. Like Martin I own a lot of US/Canadian equipment but I also own a fair amount of stuff from the UK & I've heard a whole lot more.
I just don't get the concept of hearing no fret noise in a string gutar,or the buzz in a reed insterment and all the internal noise of a singer.
I don't understand this statement as once having reached a certain standard of equipment, I'd always expect to hear these things aplenty!
Were I pushed to describe differences I'd say that the US gear tends to place more weight in size of soundstage and image placement than most UK gear, sometimes given the chance to a point where it gives an unrealistically large scale.
Speaker voicing may differ because of the size and construction methods of our respective nation's 'average' house. Our average room size is generally smaller than yours & you guys use a lot more wood in construction & that tends to produce very different sounding rooms. Maybe if you heard a UK speaker in a UK room it might be more to your taste.
Ali Tait
26-02-2010, 08:45
A lot of the percieved difference could be down to the different size in rooms between the U.S. and U.K. generally.The houses are also constructed differently.
That's my opinion, too. US speakers have to deliver more bass directly to the listener because of the rooms' dimensions.
chris@panteg
26-02-2010, 10:00
Up until recently i have been using Snell type j ' i would not describe them as 3rd or 4th row , i always felt they were quite laid back .
I think its more a combination of how the speakers and amp work together ' and the room they are in ' correct me if i am wrong but the acoustics in a typical British house are totally different to a US one.
Rare Bird
26-02-2010, 12:38
btw jeff Thorens arnt British.
giorgino
26-02-2010, 13:53
Hey Jeff (Goraman) - Nice to see a familiar name here! :)
Great points guys - I hadn't accounted for the just how different the size and construction between typical US and UK homes are. Quite often when I'm on the US sites, I read of listening room dimensions that are the size of my entire flat. Most UK living rooms seem to be the equivalent of the US apartment living rooms. Newly built homes are also getting smaller due to demographic changes and price of land.
PS - The population density between the UK and US is quite astounding:
(UK) 646 people per sq mi
(USA) 83 per sq mi
I never would have thought about room construction as part of the preformance factor but if you guys are in a brick house with plaster it would be differant sounding than wood with fiberglass and drywall.
I wonder what the average room size their would be as my liveing room is around 16 ft. X 20 Ft. Not exactly huge.
Sorry,I always thought Thorens was a Brittish table due to the name,I had one years ago but only for 6 months,and never looked at it that closely as I was already wanting the new then Music Hall.
It's a funny thing (speakers) I love the ANE but cant stand the ANK. The K's sounds like my Mission's with a wet blanket over them.The E's are open and airy and don't make me want to crowd the speaker.I kept wanting to sit closer and closer to the K's hopeing to hear more detail in strings ect...
Any way thanks for helping me to understand a little better the major differance.
So it's not true Brits listen to music differantly they just need differant voiced speakers to complament a harder sounding room?
US rooms are often larger than UK rooms and are also timber-frame construction which apparently absorbs deep bass.
I don't care what my friends at AVI say, bigger rooms NEED bigger speakers (and well designed big speakers work quite well in small rooms too I know), but some of the big US models sound overly thick, slooooowwwwwww and boomy here (I cite the Wilson "Systems" as prime examples, certainly the 7 and 8)...
Apparently, there was an "East Coast US" and "West Coast US" speaker balance at one time, the east having Advent (?) and the west JBL, older models all but screaming the music out as I remember...
In the UK, we've traditionally had the "BBC" approach, which I love when set up right (some Tannoys also have a similar balance IMO) and the rather opposite "Trad Flat Earth" sort of balance with little bass, a shouty mid and a detached and crisp top end - IMO........
Just go with what you like and can accommodate.....
It would be cool to see pictures of U.S. and Brittish listening rooms.
That might really make for a interesting contrast.
I will try to get out some new pics.
Rare Bird
26-02-2010, 14:10
Most british living rooms are around 20 foot square (i don't mean square just a term). Newer lego houses as i call em way smaller...Hifi are oftentimes in UK the main living room where the family spend time with TV etc some lucky guys have dedicated rooms..
giorgino
26-02-2010, 14:16
I have a 1 bedroom flat with a listening/living room or 17x10x8 feet which isn't that small for London new flats (have seen smaller). Fortunately, the living area open into the kitchen/dining area which is another 10x11.
Hifi are oftentimes in UK the main living room where the family spend time with TV etc some lucky guys have dedicated rooms..
I'm lucky since I now live alone and have dedicated my main room to music.
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/system.jpg
The Grand Wazoo
26-02-2010, 20:25
So it's not true Brits listen to music differantly they just need differant voiced speakers to complament a harder sounding room?
Well..........we've got the same kind of ears as you! (at least most of us do).
Rare Bird
26-02-2010, 20:37
Well..........we've got the same kind of ears as you! (at least most of us do).
:lolsign:
I've heard the same comment made by Germans saying our ears are different. :scratch:
Ali Tait
26-02-2010, 20:49
I've also read that both French and German kit sounds different to UK kit.No idea how true that is though.
Yes,French kits sound a little whiney and arrogant in the mid range and German gear has a guthral barking midrange.:doh:
And if you put both kits in the same room the German kit will take over the Room.:cool:
I thought we were talking about stereo systems, not stereotypes....:lol:
jandl100
27-02-2010, 10:13
I read in a Stereophile interview with Dave Wilson (he of Wilson Audio speakers) that they voice their speakers quite differently for the US and Euro markets because of the construction differences in the respective listening rooms.
---
I'm a big fan of US speakers - my current Infinity RS2.5, and previously Martin logan CLS2z and Electrostatic Vista II stat hybrids (anyone remember them? - great speakers that can teach ML a lesson or three in how to integrate stat hybrids, imo!), JBL L110 ... among quite a few others.
I guess there is the traditional 'BBC Sound' - that some folks (including me) translate as Pipe & Slippers - superb and wonderful tonal neutrality that shows the door to most US designs, but need serious amplifier grunt behind them if they are to have any dynamic balls at all. It's just a different way of looking at things - I guess the concert seat placement analogy has a fair bit of truth to it.
I thought we were talking about stereo systems, not stereotypes....:lol:
It's still all STEREO,sorry I get confused:mental:
People say Brits listen to music differantly,is that a stereo system sterotype or a stereotype.:scratch:
No, it's the type of stereo system.....:rolleyes:
Primalsea
27-02-2010, 19:05
I have a friend who is a fan of USA equipment, basically for him I think its all about what he calls Drama!
For him it seems he's priority is dynamics and bass weight, the other stuff has to be there but follows later.
I read in a Stereophile interview with Dave Wilson (he of Wilson Audio speakers) that they voice their speakers quite differently for the US and Euro markets because of the construction differences in the respective listening rooms.
---
Heard that too.
American stuff is brighter to us due to the absorption factor of wood that their gaffs are usually made out of.
My amps and speakers are American, aint at all bright, no sireee...:)
We're still talking stereotypes:lol:.
Primalsea
27-02-2010, 20:04
You betch we are you sum beach!
my liveing room is around 16 ft. X 20 Ft. Not exactly huge.
It's huge to me! Our lounge is around 12 foot by 11 foot, including the staircase.
The Hi-Fi is under the stairs.
It's huge to me! Our lounge is around 12 foot by 11 foot, including the staircase.
The Hi-Fi is under the stairs.
Oh my,that is small!
Like an audio tunnel.
Do you live in the U.K.?
jandl100
01-03-2010, 08:31
My amps and speakers are American, aint at all bright, no sireee...:)
We're still talking stereotypes:lol:.
Well ... one person's bright is another's vividly real! ;)
I've got USofA speakers, too, and no, they aren't bright either. :)
We're still talking stereotypes:lol:.
I agree, Ralph. If you take a couple of American brands such as Krell and Conrad Johnson, you couldn't get a more different presentation. How about Magnepan and Wilson?
Stereotypes!
I think its not so much a case of Yank vs British presentation, more to do with the target market of the 'speakers in question. It may be something of a generalisation but I suspect that 'speaker manufacturers are well aware that the customer for their big, expensive 'speakers spends 80% or more of his time listening to classical music so they voice their expensive 'speakers accordingly.
I use Celestion A2 which I believe were aimed at the U.S classical listener as they require a large room and are not 'up front' in their presentation - the sort of British 'speaker I think Jeff is referring to. But I listen exclusively to rock, blues and jazz, no classical, so they are not ideal for me personally. Would I swap for some big JBLs? Yes, I probably would.
I know some will argue that if the speaker is well designed it will do both equally well. I would argue that classical requires a different presentation to rock due to the instruments used (all acoustic) and the way in which it is recorded (you can't plug trombone into a mixing desk) so the way the speaker is 'voiced' will always favour one or the other type of music.
We've just had our house measured for insulation.
3.7 meters wide (12.14 feet) by 6.2 meters deep (20.34 feet) That's 247 sq ft per floor, or 494 sq ft altogether.
That's the whole 2 bedroom house . . .
Does anyone here have a smaller house?
On a side note, we have 11 pairs of speakers (don't ask), so quick maths and that's one speaker per 22.4 sq feet of floor space. :eek:
We've just had our house measured for insulation.
3.7 meters wide (12.14 feet) by 6.2 meters deep (20.34 feet) That's 247 sq ft per floor, or 494 sq ft altogether.
That's the whole 2 bedroom house . . .
Does anyone here have a smaller house?
On a side note, we have 11 pairs of speakers (don't ask), so quick maths and that's one speaker per 22.4 sq feet of floor space. :eek:
Wow! Thought my place was small - not as wide as yours though, Kris, only 11.5 feet but about 750 sq ft alltogether if you count kitchen and bathroom which are in an extension. 4 pairs of speakers in use plus a centre and a sub so one speaker per 75 sq feet. :)
Our condo is 926 SQ FT. small for homes here. Our place was built from plans made for returning WWII vets returning home with little money.They are called Mc Quen's after the builder.These things where built without so menny time consumeing tools like a level or chalk string.And he didn't pay his craftsmen with money but trade.Each guy got a unit so if you got the one that was the framer it was pretty straight,the electriction's had a few more outlets.Mine was none of those.
But in just 5 more years it will be all mine,before the market crapped this little place was selling in the $200,000 can you belive it.
I do have a very nice veiw,that cost me around 6,000 extra,well worth it.
A nice green belt with a large creek running through it.Beats looking right into your neighbors unit, unless she's a hot nudest.:stalks:
My 81 year old mothers house is 3000 SQ FT here that is avarge newer construction middle class.
So I guess my condo is on the British side for size but I'll bet your floors are level!:o
BTW are most UK homes made from brick?
Here everything is wood frame and drywall with stucco or pressed wood sideing.
Unless you live in Chicago they use cardboard boxes,duct tape,plastic tarps.That's the true home of the blues.:dance:
technobear
01-03-2010, 21:57
I use American speakers :)
Nothing made in the UK comes close to what these do at the price.
http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/images/Druids2.jpg
They make very realistic music with a bit of Croft up 'em. Definitely not bright. I can't stand bright.
Oh, and they are equally adept with a full-on rock band or a trombone (or any other acoustic instrument for that matter).
I don't know if they have improved the ZU Druids or not.
They had issues due to a wild impeadance curve.
At one point they where all over Agone at very cheap prices,I was intested in a pair when a close freind on the inside of things told me they just don't work well at all with some amps.One of them being the Manley Stingray.
Bass seems to drive the impeadance very high much like electrostats.
Last I heard Zu was impoveing the Druid.
technobear
01-03-2010, 22:34
My Druids are mk IV's.
My Croft is a hybrid amp so no impedance issues here. The Zu's love a bit of solid state welly up 'em.
Mine have had a few mods.
The standard capacitor, a Kimber, has been changed for a Mundorf Silver Foil.
A Mills tweeter damping resistor has been added.
Five small rubber dots have been added to the back of the whizzer cone.
They are sensitive to speaker cable. They aren't so well balanced with Zu's own Ibis cable. They are superb with Acoustic Zen Satori.
My Druids are mk IV's.
My Croft is a hybrid amp so no impedance issues here. The Zu's love a bit of solid state welly up 'em.
Mine have had a few mods.
The standard capacitor, a Kimber, has been changed for a Mundorf Silver Foil.
A Mills tweeter damping resistor has been added.
Five small rubber dots have been added to the back of the whizzer cone.
They are sensitive to speaker cable. They aren't so well balanced with Zu's own Ibis cable. They are superb with Acoustic Zen Satori.
Sounds like youve tuned them up and they work well with your set up.
They are not a plug and play date.
I am also told the gap between the bottom and the floor is tuneable and very importaint.
Hypnotoad
02-03-2010, 02:22
I have a fairly small sized dedicated listening room for over here (my wife calls it the man cave), 20' x 14' and my Polk SDA's just fit in there, just.
I used to have some Kef Concerto's years ago, they soaked up huge amounts of power but at the same time the T27 tweeter blew very easily. They were very laid back. Didn't image that well and had a small sound stage. But like everyone pointed out maybe they just couldn't cope with too much room and dry wall/timber construction.
I think someone mentioned that there were two tastes in speakers, West coast which included your JBL's. Altecs, Cerwin Vega's etc. Then the East Coast or more properly called New England speakers. They were typically, AR's, Advent's, KLH's, Boston Acoustics.
West Coast was boom and tizz, lots of bass, on the bright side with wall shaking volume, mostly bass reflex construction.
East Coast was more detailed, smoother and accurate, mostly acoustic suspension.
I prefer the East Coast sound and I don't like bright at all either.
I like detail, sound stage and being able to close my eyes and totally forget the sound is coming from two boxes.
As far as gear goes, the only thing American in my system is the speakers.
P.S. Those Druid's look awesome.
I have a fairly small sized dedicated listening room for over here (my wife calls it the man cave), 20' x 14' and my Polk SDA's just fit in there, just.
I used to have some Kef Concerto's years ago, they soaked up huge amounts of power but at the same time the T27 tweeter blew very easily. They were very laid back. Didn't image that well and had a small sound stage. But like everyone pointed out maybe they just couldn't cope with too much room and dry wall/timber construction.
I think someone mentioned that there were two tastes in speakers, West coast which included your JBL's. Altecs, Cerwin Vega's etc. Then the East Coast or more properly called New England speakers. They were typically, AR's, Advent's, KLH's, Boston Acoustics.
West Coast was boom and tizz, lots of bass, on the bright side with wall shaking volume, mostly bass reflex construction.
East Coast was more detailed, smoother and accurate, mostly acoustic suspension.
I prefer the East Coast sound and I don't like bright at all either.
I like detail, sound stage and being able to close my eyes and totally forget the sound is coming from two boxes.
As far as gear goes, the only thing American in my system is the speakers.
P.S. Those Druid's look awesome.
thought this apropriote
I don't know if they have improved the ZU Druids or not.
They had issues due to a wild impeadance curve.
At one point they where all over Agone at very cheap prices,I was intested in a pair when a close freind on the inside of things told me they just don't work well at all with some amps.One of them being the Manley Stingray.
Bass seems to drive the impeadance very high much like electrostats.
Last I heard Zu was impoveing the Druid.
The Stingray has its O/P xformers wound specifically for 5ohm speakers, Zu speakers (the Essence at any rate) are nominally 12 ohm so yes there could well be matching issues.
However, Manley can do custom xformers and indeed I was told by their UK importer that Manley use Zu speakers at the factory as part of their development programme, along with others of course.
Cheers.
I have been to her factory,and didn't see any Zu stuff mostly walls of Tannoy.
Not saying she couldn't have a pair somewhere,understand her factory is more than 11,000 square feet and the wharehouse covers half a block.Her place is huge and packed with emplyees.I also know of a well respected hifi dealer who set up a stingray with the Zu druids at a CES show and people didn't like the combo for the most part.
But the Druids have been much refined since the first production run.
The Grand Wazoo
02-03-2010, 09:21
Regarding the cartoon in the earlier post:
'If two speakers sound different............at least on of them is wrong'
No question - it's just a case of finding either the least wrong or the one with the wrongness you prefer.
I've had two pairs of American speakers. My system is tuned toward the warm via all tube integrated and tubes CDP.
Merlin TSM-MXe's - yes bright and my room is well damped by carpet and furnishings.
Vandersteen 1c's - totally opposite. Smooth and enveloping.
Hypnotoad
02-03-2010, 15:24
I've had two pairs of American speakers. My system is tuned toward the warm via all tube integrated and tubes CDP.
Merlin TSM-MXe's - yes bright and my room is well damped by carpet and furnishings.
Vandersteen 1c's - totally opposite. Smooth and enveloping.
Vandersteen's are highly regarded here, I nearly bought a pair recently but I couldn't be bothered driving to Dallas and had already seen the Polks listed.
I hope to get a pair down the track, just don't tell the misses.
chris@panteg
03-03-2010, 12:26
I love the Vandersteen's 1st time i heard them i thought OMG they are miles better than any Brit speakers of the time for me anyway ' it was about 1989 ' .
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