View Full Version : A Visit To Malvern Audio Research
Lots of hi-fi thingies:stalks:
More laterz.
https://tmfouq.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mksTp0NMcnc0lK7NWSxBEW4qpjdkRuL8J5FqtrfsZ2StCobZ PLKihZx6ulhPs8se4iJ8OLFKQ3_TfB-Ai7ZsIZRwwAI-wS86mCeEv1XYHq_LZTWbjDOFk7q-ZaIFKXQkj4kl4KsfqDRFBO0X1GuYleDKvyPCi-6zPD32PbgQIXnSV0KD2Zk3KQCSfke2dJRRvWwEzyNsjgVgVE0S gE0Wy2g?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
Tektron 211 amp with KR 211 valves.
https://uwfouq.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mif-Ig0hg9NM8dWwgjtA6aeUTCgJ5CiNBZaGNnrDQfhVQK7joWpkXm rWOCama7TgFpTKT1dv9GTulGLHuLotv4oCSZmriDh1KzaINRl7 WrDlIlvtqQ2VfgjqKqJp9ePnhNFr7iRD_7skHOB_jBrhzgcORi YNeBJWHLnBTAq0TvmwIo0xlnjqU9weFudvxv4Nnw8Zd2t-xaJLTVJbqQnze2Q?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
That's a speaker with a trout pout and a half! Hope it sounded a bit..... oh never mind, was it fun? [emoji3]
Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
Firebottle
31-12-2017, 08:07
Those Universum's are striking :stalks:
Not seen that colour combo before.
James - yeah - great day. Alan - not sure that's the colour combo I would go for but yes, very striking indeed in the flesh.
A friend wanted to compare 211 valves, so I took along some Amperex, GE and RCA. There were two 211 based amps there, a prototype and the Tektrons. We tried various combinations along with the KRs. General consensus was the Amperex seemed to produce the nicest results, and indeed that is what I use a quad of at home. They are marked 211 BS on the bases, so the bullshit valves won the day!:)
The RCAs came over rather too sharply in the upper mid/treble region, making them hard to like here, and were bettered by the GEs. The KRs were bright and dynamic, with way more than a touch oh the personality of their PX4 triode I use in my Lampizator Big 7 coming across than I expected. The KR 211 is odd technically, and some claim it isn't really a 211.
So here is the prototype 211 amp, and the Audio Detail pre and phonostage boxes. Both are Mark Manwaring-White efforts, our host and the MingDa UK distributor. There was a serious amount of MingDa kit in the room, so I believed his claim. I had no idea who I was visiting before I turned up. Really:)
https://s2e5fw.ch.files.1drv.com/y4moKK2uEjk3RqgP2Uzm-2C-rSMMUXXPNYLGw8r5VOdPx2S9CD5iDHN5jpUHPfSLfFydV4hOg4 ReVbUK4NfAHNC5uX8Uk5U1x47yFVIZ6YA_L7h9wNdgtDA95u_M 0EnQ_J9ec9WrKBKQb0TTHsBEuA6LV1MgcmcVPlwR3O0B3E77B0 jnCMz057YDZmC1YTPamecs9CxXdC_CyzuBRqtjGLxLA?width= 5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
https://tge5fw.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mVcBlAPlAPd7VtKooZ5OJzX78VMjSDYusysJQaTZGeGyMSER ewyQyUbSJf8LgeVHI1V-z6P1c5hBtus9ahql98mMYQEpEab1oij0S7QDk33aQ2SkYV7naW _mUNKoiLSZItYSEau8pPQtR-GPQIO1OZBLMid0prxmFfypnamDoWlMOTbPzXJOiFN3MwSLNekG GiEnZSE1mxHUXj6tfUrQQog?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
Posts such as the above discussing the finer nuances of the sound of particular valves cause me to think that despite years of being interested in and substantially involved in audio, both as a hobby and professionally, I have cloth ears.
On to the speakers. I had heard them twice before arrival here at shows, mainly playing classical at low volumes. In all honesty, I had thought they were pretty dreadful.
Thankfully, with some volume and some material I actually like, they did rather better here. What a relief! The highlight sonically for me was probably the Pet Shop Boys 12 inch vinyl 45 rpm single "I Want a Dog" (from the three disc Introspective set I have owned for years). This sounded great in the flesh, though the video I will post later doesn't really show that. What the speakers biggest flaw appears to be is a lack of true dynamics. Some of that is probably due to bouncing the bass off the floor. Those big vertical black things have a large cone driver mounted at the bottom. This IMHO serves to reduce impact, and I always regard speakers with drivers that don't directly face you as somewhat suspect.
If you want truly dynamic sounding horns, I have heard nothing better in that regard the world over than Avant Garde's designs. The Trio in particular does dynamics in a way the Universum cannot even begin to replicate. Albeit at greater cost.
However, they threw a very nice, easy to listen to soundstage that sounded remarkably well balanced. The easy to listen to bit I think actually comes from this lack of dynamics, so it isn't always a negative in some sense or listener's viewpoints. Not everyone wants to be bombarded with punch and weight for more than a few minutes, if at all.
I think they naturally lean towards someone with classical/jazz bias. Electronic and reggae are served nicely enough, with The Clash's Police and Thieves coming over very well, despite my first album copy being completely buggered through incessant use over the years.
With regards to electronic, I thought we'd play some so I put Electronic's "Get The Message" on. Here I had a bit of an HF issue. We were using an AT ART7 and it really put me back a few years in memory of the AT cartridges I used to own. The treble was just too bright and etched in a way that affected and obviously still affects some AT cartridges.
We swapped TTs onto one using a cheaper AT33, and thankfully this issue was corrected straight away, but at the expense of sounding rather cruder elsewhere. Still, a good result. Not sure which AT33 variant is was, but I preferred it overall on that one track, and a more seasoned listener of this system who lives next door did too.
Enough banter only 37.574% will read, let's do more pics!
The TT with the AT ART7. Unfortunately even though Mark told me what these TTs were, I have forgotten. The visit was actually on the 17/12/2017. If someone knows please chime in.
https://t2fouq.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mKa4dZFDw0lIL8B-QAcv3z_SmPV4rrRL12DAz8s2yTR-CklxHSBht6Rnq-LGP6_O42tlyEUg1h8GPOeg2LSX5b0IRVHusHKTECv8d_RJaM_j 1-_gsXTmV7DSmIbOImqrXR6QRoxE945OCYfQHlJHoo6jNUdWpibh PqSygLqa2kEpftdB9EBdHYqaeqoyosVpGGXNOoEEFWvzsAAOuE t_X0g?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
The TT with the AT33.
https://ugfouq.ch.files.1drv.com/y4m2Xe4xH1TqtDkdVQ0o_4Qf2CGUbk1qzPoWOaKJm0di_SE9RP HtC0ajFX9t2-i-9ubQ-a9CHiN0yEaFnJlj9eR1xU_FkZJozUrDmZ8bGsLzUnjjQjyYEE8 aDwStYfhADhU4L_9EOhxjJNr3QR17B38tZ93TZR5PeuQcTYyci t0k9Yg3Zl_j98VCgLE9zjwW8GR43Sgl1dr2TbuwhIGRUb5zA?w idth=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
They are both nice TTs so if you are looking for something unusual go see Mark for a demo.
walpurgis
31-12-2017, 10:07
If you want truly dynamic sounding horns, I have heard nothing better in that regard the world over than Avant Garde's designs. The Trio in particular does dynamics in a way the Universum cannot even begin to replicate. Albeit at greater cost.
Not heard the Universum, but I'd agree about the Trio. I've not heard another speaker quite like them. Better? Possibly, plenty worse though. I've always really enjoyed the big Avant Garde's.
Not heard the Universum, but I'd agree about the Trio. I've not heard another speaker quite like them. Better? Possibly, plenty worse though. I've always really enjoyed the big Avant Garde's.
The Trios with 3 basshorn stack is the most dynamic horn system I have ever heard. In that regard way above the huge Cessaros and just about anything else I have come across in hornsville anywhere. I am a fan without the room to accommodate them or the urge to spend that much, though.
Posts such as the above discussing the finer nuances of the sound of particular valves cause me to think that despite years of being interested in and substantially involved in audio, both as a hobby and professionally, I have cloth ears.
Everyone seemed to find it easy enough, and the remarks trended towards a common view of their various attributes. A sure sign that the speakers really are quite revealing? I think so.
walpurgis
31-12-2017, 10:16
The Trios with 3 basshorn stack is the most dynamic horn system I have ever heard
Yes. I've heard that too. Funny thing is, I can't recall where. It was a show, but I forget which one.
Some may have noticed the huge Ming Da Dynasty Cantabile Grand (http://www.mingda.co.uk/ming-da-dynasty-cantabile-grand.html) amps. We had a listen to those, too.
I had heard the Grands on Art Deco 12s at Bristol a while back, where they sounded great in a smallish room. Too small a room, really. But they still sounded great. Yours for £25K odd or whatever you can negotiate, I guess. I saw some Jensen caps in there so component quality looks like it is probably very acceptable. Apparently there is a smaller one box variant coming out.
Again they sounded very good here. Nice amps, no question. The Ming Da gear does have a very distinct styling you'll either love or hate, I suspect.
A few pics of Ming kit, but by no means all of the Ming kit in the room.
https://twfouq.ch.files.1drv.com/y4moGWbjrTc_JIdUw6XID3xhPRtD-RhBKoN0lxuAJvHblfzbjy6XQSwjFlzCaSHQ-etitpFq5wUyghmffVpw1S2_LECubSNKMBy9io_w1Z4-RCVNpLRBRw7PYT25BM8EfseB3-IfroL-LBb4jJqtFCAfg3A2qIgN47eXU8HkeKo2gLlo3LxjNBPKktYbcq kJeRgY89_uwtvIu9ZGTSQ7_iitA?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
https://tgfouq.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mLw62MHmjLDGQpKpeyORXqoZZ1b2XFx-cRP0fNSisfsd3b1fLE5sNvkbiTzVVLkdEVqJvJErCdM1LTOSNs 0VkRfuX36EA7As61qFSSqahS1NuZLxnK-hNqtLEcCfuI_nD-giuoTm69xJIK9H2SOuaF9xb8jYjpTgR_6NG0pzm0iroLVvslO6 nAjpunqLl3VGJujhmAgkPLQ0xxRqFtFNJAQ?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
https://s2fouq.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mYtbZt8mWslkPZoYFHlhPvx4LToOrny1BBsxzks9cCO-QBWDQ-dLNxSxIxAjdsjhiF7DcFH4lXFO5I5iZ3mJESaIUaBV2pT6jR9y hzIr0ndYzftX3Xnb3xXeYmVy6F7g3QzxHsLUpZYEvBMdudE_GT BIz1C9lSVvLSrK8_7nVp_DP1ulkDECU6kONXwmm2_DHRFp0p8I yKiFTfj5EIWCmww?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
https://u2e5fw.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mVqJBdA3uvDtVq7DJBI1E0fOzhImV-ANdEBJlixNzUHJBkyiBg9n5ANDSoz11rBXLwyumd3DO33KAYoT 5tYQV3CGPABW38GQsD_v5qcim0dSQ7xrz2OK7rPJFV27dztHzA zcKxKtaJaXq39CFmchnSZbS9arlubhQhRrd7e0PnPBR_FV8yDV rw1aXY_wr9csxHf7f5Pu_1SVkN745Ek_KMQ?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
https://vge5fw.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mO_nyaspyxIHZvOg_OrF1wztxedHXkjfWjCi3fyn8x--vQlMYQuJ4K2DI4XLMRQpAa2OoqFP8QpRB6LH6B3F-vTlSmMJuZwPds85LaGd2W-_dMlm4suRMiG9yVl4xeQw-7acl3U_u15-TrLHYvWHduVZbc6mAdAc0okzcdlyaQBwGIx20Q0bDp95yz6-UzE2MqgvpSYVrqSO_u2D77miKUg?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
https://uwe5fw.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mcxRI0BfYcoGWyzN1PWHVIKBQU8cVp1yMGj0I1s1d6xHrPPs TH2ECqn9xZIVKs0wM-sEhl6huZPLLA61JHZTrW1DWKdeeY3NiU4JxD-tIKZG07G6E3kEEMWLpkF_9T_YpvP66KHDMLMcKE-OnfjVuqV1-4MCTOQKaDL8drRsQerNCb_hf_PDBhw-75h1zB2Y3n6Vyjljd0U4oaPLXgsgWWQ?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
https://ume5fw.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mgo0iGjtoxCq0XIm4Hff5HTSqJ7Her4T1UZ0pgscLeGTNRUm t5w5hkmll8IxDGQgifITsGTbdQGfP9Bs8nQkrgaNl1h0Q4YFgD f9KMADkOMwkby2zaYIH6O9Eyk7epQmEs3jKq6yj3T_OM-tODmsgx1CEtktMeJ1_ViZS9E98qkS9h29QI9vx9JWd7MKBWPC8 I_krBFJK-LBnF56kHwpmwA?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
https://t2e5fw.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mGCRhUOWrDgrCoGvEZfgJIqFhClNz3C8p7OuBCyru7-q4vN_WkaXEAkw4EGV-1sr3aodv1maJT-_RlOQ5jJ6glw1Z0-_FYUHC4Vo8TnDZurcAkBbR06tbLw_AZ0sgxPWSgffEMkc5N_Tb rg59gz-chRfZ0s5PZnFGNDX9bvzESeIa0Wl7VjyEgPVCoiBNemo5HZjot mWcIfBBzP5ZnppQHA?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
https://uge5fw.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mn81evFZk37gCajEsDzI5mgKZDReKg8Kk7spFFWaQpsfRkG4 KOPxIpu5uVNTzopuKbXS3uXlAIpQqY5dyClLXimo7CHHA3k-J3yvZzl-37RFjqdUdP3BBQe0e5GCNuNXg_d8HEqEKbsW_V1kutOESoRhUL xVSgEFHaOruqifqeYi73N7ZNO7kp1KD3X5eC3TSWisMtcjmUXM IPLluMvINpA?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
Had a listen to this one too. Good amp. Really.
https://twe5fw.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mTWKFnXDSroSdFVjVwnpJl_wDgo6FK2ZHQrlj5qHuYKF-Lrlae0uhgGFe5lyceMjV4yPNTIiIvXOHRcMlV_gES7qbaaURK3 OwEEKPOi4AHUbODJ81g_9pgzUarCAscXFebdbyOJ-Ww3Y5mw03zXSjzcfDy7G94BcsiTnMoiUJpyjsTE5pTnyJ1qJ0g ldExGUy7s0kOVbZOJZiq-o5NVWnEg?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
The Ming digital source we used.
https://tme5fw.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mNCHRew-shrKiAjxmjbyu_EbHjt_jxbVVneek97vJbB-9BYv4flagRKRf_erSsgkXshq85H-F1CE1Czy1tUSsCPqAof6Z5-syNMxCkLQqDeptfUynRLB7AI0erxiLq3W5SpzxaUPPQHpZvjS2 ftgx1kFhbPj17q1vJWLHhScVvbU50nnKl8JRa-0LB6mhFITnvZyv-ZnGMo36QEjluwRTEA?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
Interesting you preferred the AT 33 rather than the ART7. I think they may have over egged the pudding with the ART7 as Audio Technica seem to excel at bright detailed cartridges?
. What the speakers biggest flaw appears to be is a lack of true dynamics. Some of that is probably due to bouncing the bass off the floor. o.
More likely because they just don't have any bass, just a massive mid-range hump. That probably helped with assessing the differences in the valves, though ;)
Hi Justin, which AT33 cartridge did you use was a AT33ptg or AT33SA. I think the ART7 is typical of AT over egging the pudding with their bright top end.
Another much underestimated MC cartridge by Audio-Technica is their AT-F7.
More likely because they just don't have any bass, just a massive mid-range hump. That probably helped with assessing the differences in the valves, though ;)
No they do have bass. It is just warm and not punchy. The fact of the matter is, though, that the mid probably does dominate the proceedings with the quite large horn directly facing you. There's just more apparent information coming from the mid and treble units than you get from the bass drivers.
Hi Justin, which AT33 cartridge did you use was a AT33ptg or AT33SA. I think the ART7 is typical of AT over egging the pudding with their bright top end.
Another much underestimated MC cartridge by Audio-Technica is their AT-F7.
As I said, Jim, I dunno which variant it was. I used to own an AT-F3 (dangerous highs that bite hard), An OC9 (better by a long shot but still a little etched at the top end) and an OC-30 (no longer made) and that I would rate as a good cartridge. The top end really was OK with that although still identifiably an AT.
Jim I am guessing it was one of these (https://eu.audio-technica.com/hifi-phono/cartridges/AT33Sa). The only non-mono AT33 on that website that has the same colour of finish on all sides. The one in my pic looks to be gold finished, but maybe that is just a trick of the light etc. So £700 odd quids worth.
I’ve heard the huge Ming-Da amps, the speakers and a number of the other bits at the Cranage show.
I’ve heard those speakers a number of times (four or five) and they are really quite flexible in the way they can be driven. As a result they can sound very different from one setup to another. I would also add that one of the most opaque, soggy, lack-lustre and bland sounds I have ever heard emanated from a pair of impressive looking Ming-Da monoblocks....
Jim I am guessing it was one of these (https://eu.audio-technica.com/hifi-phono/cartridges/AT33Sa). The only non-mono AT33 on that website that has the same colour of finish on all sides. The one in my pic looks to be gold finished, but maybe that is just a trick of the light etc. So £700 odd quids worth.
Cheers Justin, the AT33SA would probably be more in keeping with the equipment you were listening too. Nice Shabita stylus so should have sounded quite detailed?
Next up - Atma-Sphere M-60 (http://www.atma-sphere.com/Products/#M-60) OTL monos.
https://uwgeog.ch.files.1drv.com/y4ma8WqLNp2smOLEe4aDwepVWdDksl3uBahzytc-NSLh256zyWN3Wf2hTZejqVa0FfdgT_m6LblZasa5It5ibFPuxn GGRvxgIc3A0VvpKGhtgpIkEXkgwEV81rUkHeTbsPgHkGS4MGCN FzeF7i8O6slB9WBYzgA5twRi_ZzRR-BYZzja_Fp6_Xqhy6Czr0ab1lIj95HNsBbwOi63JFEfTAvkg?wi dth=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
https://t2edlg.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mtutCNEMHWOjlXR9NoUF-4Rgcp6vh4EefDTb_A86Xayr1zbHdIBy-7q41cGNlQCeawV518QXuWYUA5oqd8_u9XnznZy3xv_m5V0INL5 E4JQXf9ArzmU08Wv9Tp3KumtmMJpwTzbHAqnnzHiw9Hfrt4c-Q4BgW2KsDwrvN8sNfWQIiBL5SpdeiJvCrnaHErorzU3eX8WfkX Rm_WNcruF06qg?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
I had heard these at Munich sounding very odd driving some horns. Here, the sound just floated out in a super spacious, very easy to listen to way, but at the same time with some very strange colourations. They didn't sound like anything I had ever heard before. Really curious stuff, I thought. Is it the amps, or the speakers, or both?
Here's the video I shot at the time. There's some odd camera noise on it, but later on in the video the electronic music really did sound odd, to say the least, and thankfully there's no camera noise on that bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eenGvQXoESE
Here, at the Malvern Audio Research there was an obvious incompatibility with the Audio Detail preamp. We had to crank the volume up to eleven to get any appreciable volume. And even then the results were less than inspiring. They just weren't going to work. I theorised that the obviously high output of a Lampizator DAC would drive them well, so we had an idea. Next door was a Lampizator GG with Jupiter caps by-passed with Mundorfs, some Lampizator Special 45s (made by EML, no longer available a limited edition run) and a very special NOS GEC 5U4G (expensive rectifier). We thought we'd try the M-60s in that.
Note that MAR are not Atma-sphere dealers, and these amps were brought along by someone else.
Cheers Justin, the AT33SA would probably be more in keeping with the equipment you were listening too. Nice Shabita stylus so should have sounded quite detailed?
The salient point was it cured the HF issue. The AT ART7 was better elsewhere as I said, and detail through the AT33 was good though you get a lot more perceived detail from the ART7, but quite a lot of that was obviously from the raised HF.
I’ve heard those speakers a number of times (four or five) and they are really quite flexible in the way they can be driven. As a result they can sound very different from one setup to another. I would also add that one of the most opaque, soggy, lack-lustre and bland sounds I have ever heard emanated from a pair of impressive looking Ming-Da monoblocks....
The two we tried were good in this context. Honest. If the UK Ming Da distributor can't get them to sound OK what chance do they have:)
Have another Ming Ding shot:D
https://twedlg.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mLVt7CrJRrjR0VN5am_cAyfWeY1iU3aBsbfv8e0bFT7tqYFj MnGeqo2n0OOTLyWNaqgoHat2a_gq5Y8A4lFqIGTL5z0GXAeUyN 5gh1E9eekBPP3ZfpDrvzLZbZV_n5WVcY78D9oPnyBQEI7C61SK RNoFO5xRPN5USAxG2BKLwwDgcuY_N2dY4JoV-6Cljzr8ScNGCBrA-K0Q8AqW2_dCSpA?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
Bigman80
31-12-2017, 12:12
Hi Justin, which AT33 cartridge did you use was a AT33ptg or AT33SA. I think the ART7 is typical of AT over egging the pudding with their bright top end.
Another much underestimated MC cartridge by Audio-Technica is their AT-F7.Had an ART7 In my system and the top end was laudable. The whole experience was very positive. Lost out on the Nth degree of detail to the Ortofon Vienna but no HF issues heard here. I am actively looking for an ART7 Although the AT33SA is very tempting as it's the right money.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
OK. So next door things were sounding far more traditionally normal, in the form of some hORNS FP-15s. I have heard these before, too, and suspected they were good. And they blinking well are. Very good indeed. I rate them highly. Great extended bass and dynamics, real clarity and separation, ace sound staging of the pinpoint kind, no obvious faults I could identify with the speaker when paired with a great amp.
So here is the default set up.
First up the amps. These are custom built Tektron GM70 amps. Later modified by John Howe (the chap that works on Quad amps a lot and sells a John Howe edition).
https://vgfouq.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mgyejid_1bHWdMuuOkmdYsym7P_NMoHSGwRTXBMEz00Mgnbx u8bD_9Pbo9LTdBnT5Zxn5HHvnSt4Ed3MI-bWD0_tRj4G7UiURLc1QPq_3LC--hipOJilkyw7Y84p4ke4ORz2kwIB_5mOcsiKyWXygCmFUjFxM9K iU8m5tApODYuST2uOkbuELioBKNeUzU5R185oLMlPbAPJrath8 sLMN1Q?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
These amps are an ace match with the FP-15s. They get the bass right, have great dynamics, and contribute to all the assertions I made about the speakers above. Excellent stuff. GM70 amps can obviously be great.
Had an ART7 In my system and the top end was laudable. The whole experience was very positive. Lost out on the Nth degree of detail to the Ortofon Vienna but no HF issues heard here. I am actively looking for an ART7 Although the AT33SA is very tempting as it's the right money.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
It wasn't here. That's all I can say but I say it with absolute certainty! Speakers with a different frequency response and other variables may well tell a different story. It's all a game of system matching at the end of the day.
Firebottle
31-12-2017, 12:32
Yes I've listened to those very ones, the hORNS FP-15s and I do rate them very highly.
Another Tektron shot...
https://tgedlg.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mk7rVuqKm4PZ8C2TvD0wg7xfd0W-_kTI1CRN4oiEnwYSGtG7200d5UWpjTVdf90pphsTJX9voD7aD0 tjpyGSdFQiNsqfrC8hd7UVRPi4OflI9kILfqbkAtuSvau7Tsbw 9XE1e1eC_mPIrQLHFiEwAoKIGngh-jD4PO68HhNwikt_vEjkx1aZlho7fGXg50DzsKHUNKibvwlKN0S RDfrkJ9A?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
https://tmedlg.ch.files.1drv.com/y4m_O07FP7pTHv2OeKnDamzIgHD4FFp4-Q7k2N-IkwIIc71s4X1Tg9rCkVE7AlSp_wrT6vQxGBIqF91tU6DMwEJix IQswLBSUNpTIPt_8dmcrr4bagWggAUJPjVE7KbpTPZj51QlRfL NZ7003kEvUodlk8ZfJ9E0dyQ4Ijx1uzvRXyMysYQXno4atsCL1 PV6Yu8ft0jt9L8n_6WUmzFRKe7FA?width=5472&height=3080&cropmode=none
The whole caboodle above. The preamp is a passive Hattor, higher end stuff from that Khozmo dude. Lovely dual mono affair. I'd really like to try it in my system, preferably with the optional valve active stage. See here (http://www.hattor.com/index2.html#ultimate).
George did a review of it on the Wam a while back, and bought one. I am not sure which resistors were in this one.
So oddly though the preamp was passive, the output of the Lampizator DAC drove the Atma-sphere M-60s far better than in the previous system. BTW the Universums have a nominal 8 Ohm impedance so that shouldn't have caused the Atma-sphere's any real issues, or so you would think.
Yes I've listened to those very ones, the hORNS FP-15s and I do rate them very highly.
They've got some seriously rigid birch ply cabs. A well built solid speaker no doubt about it. Consequently they sound clean in a way any Audio Note E variant doesn't. Which isn't to say they can't sound really good in the right room and set up. But my preferences verge towards more rigid, solidly built efforts with big drivers. Not surprising when electronic and bass heavy reggae music is a staple part of my diet.
So which amps were the better match?
Well the Tektrons aced it. The M-60s overdid the bass. The other flaw showed itself with steel string guitar. Since I play one it was obviously apparent to me that the M-60s weren't revealing any of the bite and "aliveness" of a steel string acoustic. The Tektrons did it.
The M-60s pushed the soundstage forward and generally didn't sound as alive as the Tektrons. But despite the noted flaws they still had some very positive attributes with respect to transparency and imaging. Not a bad result, just not in Tektron league.
Quick video of said Lampi based system. Not well shot and done whilst quick classical excerpts were being played, but hey. Better than nowt!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFBk3H5zUHs
hORNS Universum doing Pet Shops.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5ykwJVe_V0
Fantastically enjoyable 11:30 am til 5:30 pm session at Mark's. I strongly recommend a visit Mark is a great host.
I'd be a bit careful trying to form solid opinions based on the video SQ, though it is hard not to be influenced. A lot better in the flesh is all I'd say.
email: mark@mingda.co.uk. I'm sure he won't mind that for any genuine enquiries after all it will be on his website I suspect.
Posts such as the above discussing the finer nuances of the sound of particular valves cause me to think that despite years of being interested in and substantially involved in audio, both as a hobby and professionally, I have cloth ears.
I don't doubt different manufacturer's version of the same valve design can sound different, and can be readily discernable - the difficulty is often describing what those differences are. Much in the same way the product from different Chateaux of a particular wine region will taste different.
Maybe that is the reason I stick to solid-state electronics. For the only valve power amplifier I have, I keep to the valves chosen by the designer, which for that particular amp are (Blackburn Road) Mullards.
George47
31-12-2017, 16:55
Justin,
Looks like you had a great day.
I have heard the big horns twice and once they were OK and on the second occasion they were excellent. I guess the new Lampizator DAC and the valve power amps helped no end on the second occasion. They were also in a much better and bigger room allowing the horns a chance to really energize things. That looks like an impressive set of amplifiers and like you I have a soft spot for the bigger valve amps with 211s and /or 845s. Unfortunately because they use high voltages the size of the transformers gets to be very large/expensive. But boy do they do dynamics and power as well as a lot of the finesse of 300Bs.
I was using the Hattor this afternoon with the Takman Rex resistors. Although more than the Khozmo I like the use of balanced inputs and outputs, remote control and balance controls. Although they are £1.5K the sound quality and convenience is great and I doubt any active up to many £Ks more can have that transparency. Would really like to hear these horns with the big speakers. Like the piccies.
jandl100
31-12-2017, 17:02
I've only heard the Universum speakers once, at a show, and not for long.
Small scale classical (right up my street) and I was sorely pressed to return to my beloved MBLs! I just loved their midrange transparency and presence. The MBLs are very good, the Universums were better in those aspects. The wife said I should get a pair and play swapsies with the MBLs, but I decided not to.
Mind you, they were less than £10k then, not the current £25k!
George47
31-12-2017, 17:04
I've only heard the Universum speakers once, at a show, and not for long.
Small scale classical (right up my street) and I was sorely pressed to return to my beloved MBLs! I just loved their midrange transparency and presence. The MBLs are very good, the Universums were better in those aspects. The wife said I should get a pair and play swapsies with the MBLs, but I decided not to.
No sense of adventure Jerry :)
jandl100
31-12-2017, 17:05
Nah, I'm well known as a stick in the mud when it comes to hifi. Never change a thing. ;)
brian2957
31-12-2017, 17:56
Nah, I'm well known as a stick in the mud when it comes to hifi. Never change a thing. ;)
:lol:
Mark is an excellent host. I've always enjoyed my visits there. He did a wonderful job on my Beard P35. A top bloke!
Mark is an excellent host. I've always enjoyed my visits there. He did a wonderful job on my Beard P35. A top bloke!
He's even claiming the Mings are starting to listen to him when he points out electronic design questionables. That's made him very happy.
He's got a workshop and might be a great place to get a sick amp fixed, as you say.
Justin,
Looks like you had a great day.
I have heard the big horns twice and once they were OK and on the second occasion they were excellent. I guess the new Lampizator DAC and the valve power amps helped no end on the second occasion. They were also in a much better and bigger room allowing the horns a chance to really energize things. That looks like an impressive set of amplifiers and like you I have a soft spot for the bigger valve amps with 211s and /or 845s. Unfortunately because they use high voltages the size of the transformers gets to be very large/expensive. But boy do they do dynamics and power as well as a lot of the finesse of 300Bs.
I was using the Hattor this afternoon with the Takman Rex resistors. Although more than the Khozmo I like the use of balanced inputs and outputs, remote control and balance controls. Although they are £1.5K the sound quality and convenience is great and I doubt any active up to many £Ks more can have that transparency. Would really like to hear these horns with the big speakers. Like the piccies.
Not sure what you meant by the penultimate sentence.
But yeah, I used a very good passive for years. Jerry liked it more than my current active effort. I might plug it back in.
Kev's AN 211s are very good, I guess you know them well. Must give him a ring haven't spoken for a while.
Anyway I just got back from a holiday and listening to my system for the first time since a long time ago (before the MAR visit), It is totally fucked up astonishingly fast. The result of an absolute mass of magnets and relatively very light weight diaphragms in a super rigid frame. The net result being incredible force per unit area when some current flows over the aluminium.
Not everyone's cup of tea but I an just sitting here thinking Jesus H. Christ. This is fuckin' nuts! Information overload on the grandest scale. Rather different from my first pair of Duettas you heard.
Not for the faint hearted!:lol:;)
Justin - tried to message you but your inbox is full.
Tristan
I also stay with SS amplification Barry, though I used valves throughout the 60s and into the early 70s, and built several amps with them. I only knew of Mullard and Brimar valves back then, both regarded as good.
I visited Audionote around 2000, and the wife of the owner said that the Avant Guard Trios' performance, which they had there, were prone to ambient temp or humidity variation.
I agree that the OC9 is a bit toppy.
George47
01-01-2018, 10:00
Not sure what you meant by the penultimate sentence.
But yeah, I used a very good passive for years. Jerry liked it more than my current active effort. I might plug it back in.
Kev's AN 211s are very good, I guess you know them well. Must give him a ring haven't spoken for a while.
Anyway I just got back from a holiday and listening to my system for the first time since a long time ago (before the MAR visit), It is totally fucked up astonishingly fast. The result of an absolute mass of magnets and relatively very light weight diaphragms in a super rigid frame. The net result being incredible force per unit area when some current flows over the aluminium.
Not everyone's cup of tea but I an just sitting here thinking Jesus H. Christ. This is fuckin' nuts! Information overload on the grandest scale. Rather different from my first pair of Duettas you heard.
Not for the faint hearted!:lol:;)
What I meant was I would like to hear the large horns with the large Ming Da power amplifiers. Real dynamics.
I like what passives do and also dislike what they do not do. They are incredibly detailed, transparent and give a great 3D soundstage but some reduce dynamics and they can sound 'flat'.
Yes the AN211s do sound superb but Kev now has a SS pre and power amplifier !! A great challenger.
Your speakers were a total surprise for me with an electrostatic clarity and real dynamics and bass.
As we crash into 2018 it is interesting to see that the valve lover has never had such a great collection of products to choose from. The wide range of Chinese amplifiers with superb amps that are very high value with a lot of internet specials that are errr... less good. I borrowed some Consanance 211s and they sound really, really good and were not that expensive.
Justin - tried to message you but your inbox is full.
Tristan
Cleared now Tristan.
I also stay with SS amplification Barry, though I used valves throughout the 60s and into the early 70s, and built several amps with them. I only knew of Mullard and Brimar valves back then, both regarded as good.
I visited Audionote around 2000, and the wife of the owner said that the Avant Guard Trios' performance, which they had there, were prone to ambient temp or humidity variation.
I agree that the OC9 is a bit toppy.
That's interesting did she say why?
I honestly think ambient temperature affects mine. If you look at how Kapton and aluminium are affected by temperature there's no reason why they should be but my ears tell me otherwise. In a cold room it is rare that I think they sound as good as they can. Curious indeed.
What I meant was I would like to hear the large horns with the large Ming Da power amplifiers. Real dynamics.
I like what passives do and also dislike what they do not do. They are incredibly detailed, transparent and give a great 3D soundstage but some reduce dynamics and they can sound 'flat'.
Yes the AN211s do sound superb but Kev now has a SS pre and power amplifier !! A great challenger.
Your speakers were a total surprise for me with an electrostatic clarity and real dynamics and bass.
As we crash into 2018 it is interesting to see that the valve lover has never had such a great collection of products to choose from. The wide range of Chinese amplifiers with superb amps that are very high value with a lot of internet specials that are errr... less good. I borrowed some Consanance 211s and they sound really, really good and were not that expensive.
In my system I have never found a loss of dynamics when using a passive, but many say they have that issue with them. I actually think I lose a bit of speed with my active, but gain some added space and air from, to put it simply, added valve distortion. What else can it be?
Apogees can reproduce square waves quite well compared to many loudspeakers (and many are hopeless at it) so they definitely are fast at tracking signal input.
Another thing is I find I need some gain with about 5% of recordings that are recorded at a fair amount lower than average level.
I take it your are referring to Kev's Pass kit and the Cyber 211 Kev had for review. He seemed to love that one for the money.
George47
01-01-2018, 21:08
In my system I have never found a loss of dynamics when using a passive, but many say they have that issue with them. I actually think I lose a bit of speed with my active, but gain some added space and air from, to put it simply, added valve distortion. What else can it be?
Apogees can reproduce square waves quite well compared to many loudspeakers (and many are hopeless at it) so they definitely are fast at tracking signal input.
Another thing is I find I need some gain with about 5% of recordings that are recorded at a fair amount lower than average level.
I take it your are referring to Kev's Pass kit and the Cyber 211 Kev had for review. He seemed to love that one for the money.
I also have a nice TVC pre (Allegri) and that does not suffer from the dynamics issue. The Hattor works well with the Nord (Class D) and an ARC Ref 110 I had. Extra space could come from microphony and possibly a bit of added hiss?
Yes Kev (and I) have the Pass XA30.8 power amp. The Cyber 211 was a great amp, a little crude but still a great listen.
I also have a nice TVC pre (Allegri) and that does not suffer from the dynamics issue. The Hattor works well with the Nord (Class D) and an ARC Ref 110 I had. Extra space could come from microphony and possibly a bit of added hiss?
Yes Kev (and I) have the Pass XA30.8 power amp. The Cyber 211 was a great amp, a little crude but still a great listen.
The valves in the pre show no microphony issues from tap tests with very high preamp gain. I've got a few valves that do but generally they're not in use. It is also dead quiet as preamps go. So I'm in favour of it just being what I said it was. I cannot prove it though.
Pass Labs Minion Edition I always think of them as.;) Enjoy. Never heard an XA but if I am honest I have never liked sound of any Pass Labs amp. But I have never heard an XA and that might be notably different from the few I have heard. Even if it isn't I wouldn't worry about what I think. It's a personal journey...:)
No she was not very specific Justin, she saying that they were affected by the environment other then the acoustic one.
The real trouble is that we as listeners are very affected by how comfortable we feel, and so environmental change affects us, and subconsciously, and we may not recognise that effect as separate from the system changes.
No she was not very specific Justin, she saying that they were affected by the environment other then the acoustic one.
The real trouble is that we as listeners are very affected by how comfortable we feel, and so environmental change affects us, and subconsciously, and we may not recognise that effect as separate from the system changes.
Indeed possibly I agree but even when I sit there and try and factor that out mentally I still think it sounds sub-par in a cold room. Maybe you can't factor it out by will alone.
jandl100
02-01-2018, 07:24
Never heard an XA but if I am honest I have never liked sound of any Pass Labs amp. But I have never heard an XA and that might be notably different from the few I have heard. Even if it isn't I wouldn't worry about what I think. It's a personal journey...:)
That's my experience with Pass Labs amps as well.
"Beautiful" but missing the jump factor.
Other folks love them. Fair enough.
I should have learned from the first experience (Aleph 3, decades ago) ... but no, I went and bought another one recently (X150). Same house sound although the X150 was a fair bit more interesting and stayed a lot longer than the single weekend the Aleph 3 managed! I've heard others in other systems.
Still, as Justin sort of says, it's all part of the journey.
Maybe the XA series are different, but I somehow doubt it, I suspect Nelson Pass has a particular kind of sound in mind, and he is talented enough to be able to consistently achieve it in his products.
The difficulty with the differentiation of external and internal changes, is that the body gives a great priority/override to the internal feelings, the autonomous nervous system, because they are so essential to survival.
I think my system sounds better in dry pleasant weather, when it is warm, and the top sounds better when it is a bright day, and dull at night.
It looks like Emperor Ming (Mark) will be at room 208 at the Bristol Hi-Fi show. So you can go hear some of the stuff I heard.
Doubtless in a venue like Bristol and it being a show you won't have the same luxury to experiment we had or the very large room the Universums had to breath in.
If it were me I'd probably try and run the FP-15s there. Likely to suit a Bristol room far better.
George47
02-01-2018, 14:44
My experience from last year for Bristol was not good. Most rooms were 'mostly harmless' but a lot were painful. Two or three were good and sounded reasonable.
Why put a super low bass speaker in a room just big enough for a bed? And to see a salesman smiling and tapping his foot to a painful sound is not a great advert. And as for Tannoy, I could scream. I heard the new Ardens at the Wam Show in Harrogate and they sounded like real music, wonderful, 3D with real people playing and singing. But at Bristol they have sounded awful in the last few years. Come on chaps if your dealers can do it why not you?
I now see that 2 audio journalists (Kessler) are saying that show sounds are always poor and if you go to a show hear what a system sounds like you are mad. Ha....
I am not expecting superb sound but it should be the chance to see some interesting audio and maybe get a good idea of whether it sounds interesting enough to pursue with a dealer/home demo. But for some the answer is expect poor audio and get it. Id that was true why do some companies always get good sound from their rooms?
Jerry the XA.8 amps are quite different from the .5s, more accurate, more powerful dynamics. You may like them.
The good thing is that after you've been to such a show you come away thinking "my system sounds great". Going to these shoes actually stops me wanting to spend money willy nilly.
My experience from last year for Bristol was not good. Most rooms were 'mostly harmless' but a lot were painful. Two or three were good and sounded reasonable.
Why put a super low bass speaker in a room just big enough for a bed? And to see a salesman smiling and tapping his foot to a painful sound is not a great advert. And as for Tannoy, I could scream. I heard the new Ardens at the Wam Show in Harrogate and they sounded like real music, wonderful, 3D with real people playing and singing. But at Bristol they have sounded awful in the last few years. Come on chaps if your dealers can do it why not you?
I now see that 2 audio journalists (Kessler) are saying that show sounds are always poor and if you go to a show hear what a system sounds like you are mad. Ha....
I am not expecting superb sound but it should be the chance to see some interesting audio and maybe get a good idea of whether it sounds interesting enough to pursue with a dealer/home demo. But for some the answer is expect poor audio and get it. Id that was true why do some companies always get good sound from their rooms?
Jerry the XA.8 amps are quite different from the .5s, more accurate, more powerful dynamics. You may like them.
I now see that 2 audio journalists (Kessler) are saying that show sounds are always poor and if you go to a show hear what a system sounds like you are mad. Ha.....
Well if Ken did say that I think he is basically spouting BS.
The simple fact is I have heard stuff at shows that sounds better than any domestic system I have ever heard. Anywhere. Ever. Or is at least exemplary. Usually featuring speakers that no one can afford or will commit the money to.
Western Electric (Silbatone fettled). Avant Garde Trio/Basshorns. Martin Logan Neolith. MBL 101 Xtreme. All top class acts when it really boils down to it.
There's only so much a room and crowd noise can do to ruin a system. And even these examples when playing in compromised surroundings can still perform way out of the league of most people's systems.
Whilst I take the point about show conditions being bad, and indeed a lot of speakers don't seem to be able to survive stupid speaker placement and ancillaries that don't match them, I still wouldn't rule out shows as being useless. Far from it.
I think that my post 53 is very relevant to shows, they are very uncomfortable to be in especially after a couple of hours.
walpurgis
02-01-2018, 23:44
One can become a bit jaded after a while at large shows, with sound from various stands and rooms getting rather 'samey' or less impressive in some ways. Although, that said, something exceptional will still stand out.
I recall years ago, touring a large show and being generally getting less and less impressed with most of it (apart from the Avant Garde effort), the Tannoy 'Dimension' series speakers sounding particularly disappointing. Towards the end, I visited the C R Developments display room and was rewarded with a really beautiful sound. Their own valve amplification and CD player driving a pair of Jean Michelle Reynard 'Offrande' stand mounted speakers. These were astoundingly good and this system made the show visit worthwhile. You really know when you've heard something special.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.