Phono Stage Valves

[bob4333]

My Icon Audio PS3 phono has recently been back to the manufacturer for a check / service as it was getting a bit noisy. After checking it over they informed me that all of the valves had come to the end of their useful life (no big surprise), so all 8 were replaced.

They are now:-

4 X Electro Harmonix 6922/E88CC
1 X Russian 6SN7/6H8C
1 X Ei EZ80
1 X JAN 5687
1 X Electro Harmonix E88CC

The unit was bought used by me 4 years ago and in discussion with Icon it transpired that some substitutions away from OEM had been made along the way. I knew that the previous owner had replaced the original JJ ECC88’s by Tesla’s which in his words “made a nice improvement” and the 6SN7 was a Philco offering.

The revalved stage is now working quietly, no hums pops or crackles and devoid of background noise. Except the SQ doesn’t sound quite the same.

Soundstage is still massive but the creamy, palpable bass isn’t quite there any longer – and I miss it dearly!

So the question is can the same valve, but sourced from a different manufacturer, have a big impact on sound quality. And if I change the E88CC’s back to NOS Tesla’s am I likely to get my old level of sound quality back?

[paulf-2007]

I never liked the Russian 6H8C, my favourite was Sophia electric premium 6SN7.

[Bigman80]

My Icon Audio PS3 phono has recently been back to the manufacturer for a check / service as it was getting a bit noisy. After checking it over they informed me that all of the valves had come to the end of their useful life (no big surprise), so all 8 were replaced.

They are now:-

4 X Electro Harmonix 6922/E88CC
1 X Russian 6SN7/6H8C
1 X Ei EZ80
1 X JAN 5687
1 X Electro Harmonix E88CC

The unit was bought used by me 4 years ago and in discussion with Icon it transpired that some substitutions away from OEM had been made along the way. I knew that the previous owner had replaced the original JJ ECC88’s by Tesla’s which in his words “made a nice improvement” and the 6SN7 was a Philco offering.

The revalved stage is now working quietly, no hums pops or crackles and devoid of background noise. Except the SQ doesn’t sound quite the same.

Soundstage is still massive but the creamy, palpable bass isn’t quite there any longer – and I miss it dearly!

So the question is can the same valve, but sourced from a different manufacturer, have a big impact on sound quality. And if I change the E88CC’s back to NOS Tesla’s am I likely to get my old level of sound quality back?After doing some tube rolling, I noticed that there were quite large differences in sound quality, background noise and overall resolution when I tried different brands. I have rolled various brands of PC88 PCC88 ECC83 and decided I preferred the clean sounding Telefunkens where possible. The Tesla I have in my Wizard phonostage are nearly as good. Best thing is to try as many types as you can and see what you prefer. Telefunken or Tesla are never going to steer you wrong IME.

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[bob4333]

I never liked the Russian 6H8C, my favourite was Sophia electric premium 6SN7.

Paul, are you able to quantify the sonic differences?

[bob4333]

........preferred the clean sounding Telefunkens where possible. The Tesla I have in my Wizard phonostage are nearly as good. Best thing is to try as many types as you can and see what you prefer. Telefunken or Tesla are never going to steer you wrong IME.

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Thanks Oliver. Where did the Tesla's not quite make it to the level of the Telefunken's?

If I'm going to make a change I can go with anything that's available, but even with just doing the 4 X E88CC's in the preamp I'm in for around £60 - £70 so want to do it right.

[Ali Tait]

Try changing the rectifier for something NOS.

[paulf-2007]

No sorry Bob, my memory is such that I had to search to find the Sophia's as I couldn't remember the name:)

[Bigman80]

Thanks Oliver. Where did the Tesla's not quite make it to the level of the Telefunken's?

If I'm going to make a change I can go with anything that's available, but even with just doing the 4 X E88CC's in the preamp I'm in for around £60 - £70 so want to do it right.In my system, the Telsas can't match the level of transparency the Telefunkens bring. The Tesla are close, very close but seem to have a slightly different presentation in the midband. Slightly more, maybe just a smidgen and In some cases I prefer the Tesla BUT its horses, as they say. The Telefunken are very clean and crisp sounding. It's personal choice rather than "better". Try and get a listen to what you shortlist. There are guys and girls with a few valves knocking about. Also a good seller on eBay in France who does good NOS valves at very reasonable prices. He likes an offer too and will negotiate



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[Bigman80]

Vintage-used-collector.

^the seller.

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[indie roehre]

Hi, the question is for me, why did they change all tubes? Preamp valves have a lifetime of up to 5000 hours , some up to 10.000 hrs. Do you still have your "old" tubes? Then you can change one by one, because most probably only one valve was faulty. Russian 6SN7 are only very good if they are made by Foton. Regards. Knut

[Jazid]

Hi, the question is for me, why did they change all tubes? Preamp valves have a lifetime of up to 5000 hours , some up to 10.000 hrs. Do you still have your "old" tubes? Then you can change one by one, because most probably only one valve was faulty. Russian 6SN7 are only very good if they are made by Foton. Regards. KnutRustling noises and higher background noise. Any service agent would check and likely replace all as a set to be able to guarantee the longevity of their work.
I'd give your valves at least 50 hours use, to start to break in, before making any judgements on them. Otherwise this could get a bit circular...

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[bob4333]

Vintage-used-collector.

^the seller.

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Oliver, I can't find any reference that even comes close. Would you have a link by any chance?

I've also looked up the price of the Telefunkens :eek::eek: - unless I've missed something obvious.

I reckon I'm close to pushing the button on a set of Teslas. Last night I tried 4 Siemens E88CC's that I bought a while ago and whilst they weren't quite as I remember the Tesla sound it was a smoother, rounder result in comparison to the Electro Harmonix.

I think the Siemens also gave a slightly lower output, having to increase the gain a little for a "like for like" sound level.

I reckon I've answered my own question here - same spec valves from different manufacturers do sound different.

[Ali Tait]

Yes they do, just a matter of finding which you prefer. As I mentioned earlier, have a look for a NOS EZ80, the rectifier can make a surprising difference to the sound.

[Bigman80]

Oliver, I can't find any reference that even comes close. Would you have a link by any chance?

I've also looked up the price of the Telefunkens :eek::eek: - unless I've missed something obvious.

I reckon I'm close to pushing the button on a set of Teslas. Last night I tried 4 Siemens E88CC's that I bought a while ago and whilst they weren't quite as I remember the Tesla sound it was a smoother, rounder result in comparison to the Electro Harmonix.

I think the Siemens also gave a slightly lower output, having to increase the gain a little for a "like for like" sound level.

I reckon I've answered my own question here - same spec valves from different manufacturers do sound different.This is the guy here https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.fr%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F142 490306882

The valves you are looking for are different to mine BUT the seller is a good guy. The E88CC ARE expensive.

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[bob4333]

Hi, the question is for me, why did they change all tubes? Preamp valves have a lifetime of up to 5000 hours , some up to 10.000 hrs. Do you still have your "old" tubes? Then you can change one by one, because most probably only one valve was faulty. Russian 6SN7 are only very good if they are made by Foton. Regards. Knut

To answer your comment Knut, a little history of this unit may be pertinent. It was originally a review sample that ended up being owned by Rafael Todes, Musician and HiFi critic. Interesting link http://www.iconaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Opera-Now-MB845-MkII-February-2013.pdf

I can support it's having seen a lot of use as the MC input sockets are worn a heck of a lot more than you would normally expect and although the casing is in excellent condition it's not quite mint - but it's what it sounded like that drew me to it. I bought the PS3 from it's second owner who had an immediate but temporary cash flow problem.

Before it's second ownership the unit was checked over by Icon and a couple of valves replaced. The second owner experimented and installed the Tesla valves, being more to his liking - which is how I bought it.

So when the phono amp got progressively more noisy back in August I also sent it back to the manufacturer to have it checked. I had no accurate way of telling how many hours it had on it but in my ownership alone the total would easily have been 5000, perhaps a little more. I was totally beguiled by the sound, quite possibly the biggest breakthrough I'd ever had in listening to recorded music.

When Icon told me all of the valves were shot and wanted replacing I wasn't surprised. Their literature says "It is worth noting that this application is very demanding from the ECC88 valves. Therefore valves that are 100% OK in another application may be noisy / microphonic or hum in the PS3".

They offered the old valves back to me but I said "no, just chuck 'em". Not a very bright thing to do in hindsight but as I'd never heard this stage in it's standard, untweaked version I was keen to do so and anticipated a good result. Again, flawed thinking on my part. It was obviously the tweaked version that had my interest.

I'll also add that I've never had anything but exemplary, excellent service and advice from Icon Audio and certainly have no complaint or desire to impugn their reputation. I asked for their help and proceeded from there. What I now need to do is get it back to how it was when I bought it - learning a lot along the way.:)

[bob4333]

Yes they do, just a matter of finding which you prefer. As I mentioned earlier, have a look for a NOS EZ80, the rectifier can make a surprising difference to the sound.

Thanks for that. I've just ordered a set of Tesla E88CC's. Do you have a manufacturer in mind for a replacement EZ80 if I feel I need to go that route.........?

Problem is I have no idea if the one just installed is from a top end supplier or just merely adequate.............

[Jazid]

There is no shortage of these rectifiers and in all probability wherever you go will be fine NOS of these last for yonks, even used they will probably be pretty much the same. Re E88CC and variants IMHO the only major criterion is does it have a bathtub anode and frame grid or not. If it does it should do the job just fine. Tesla, Mullard/Siemens & Halske, and Telefunken AFAIK all do, others vary. Sonic signature of this particular constructional type are likely to be very similar.

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[Ali Tait]

Thanks for that. I've just ordered a set of Tesla E88CC's. Do you have a manufacturer in mind for a replacement EZ80 if I feel I need to go that route.........?

Problem is I have no idea if the one just installed is from a top end supplier or just merely adequate.............

Here's a nice Siemens one, but there's lots of choice, Langrex have some Mullard on there too-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EZ80-SIEMENS-Rectifier-Valve-Tube-NOS-in-Box/232571294463?epid=1795070596&hash=item36265452ff:g:cSUAAOSwCkZZQe-Y

Good thing with EZ80 is that they are plentiful and cheap, even for high quality NOS. Think you mentioned they'd fitted an EI? A good NOS should outperform that handily I'd say.

[Ali Tait]

I'd probably buy this one though LOL-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EZ80-NOS-Large-D-Getter-Amperex-Bugle-Boy-Valve-Tubes/112520982748?epid=2169169327&hash=item1a32c5f0dc:g:cq4AAOSwPfVZjgHp

[vinylspinner]

Bob,

PM me your address and I will post you a nos Mullard EZ80, have several here left over from my Leak Troughline days.

Nigel

[Ali Tait]

Well you can't say fairer than that!

[diviy]

If you can wait a few weeks I could source you some russian military nos valves date stamp on mine are 1971.I have a friend who has a contact in Russia he just had all the valves for my monoblock build .

[bob4333]

Bob,

PM me your address and I will post you a nos Mullard EZ80, have several here left over from my Leak Troughline days.

Nigel

PM sent.

The helpfulness and generosity of people on this forum continues to amaze me.

[bob4333]

Well you can't say fairer than that!

No, you certainly can't. Helpfulness personified.


If you can wait a few weeks I could source you some russian military nos valves date stamp on mine are 1971.I have a friend who has a contact in Russia he just had all the valves for my monoblock build .

Gerald, that's an interesting thought. As mentioned I have a set of Tesla E88CC's that have been dispatched, due about Thurs / Fri providing postie does his stuff. With the Mullard from Nigel that means 5 of the 8 will have been changed so that should tell me something (even if it's no discernible difference).

If I'm still struggling at this point I'm in for a big re-think.:eek:

[mik_rik]

Rustling type noises could be down to dirty /tarnished valve bases.Spray each one with non residual contact cleaner , allow to dry and refit valves.Another tip is to gently ease each valve pin inwardly so when refitted they make a tighter connection.This may help with noisy valve bases but probably not with the sound balance.If it does not help at least may be of some use in the future. Cheers Mick. - p.s try removing and refitting each valve half a dozen times or so to clean each base.

[bob4333]

Yes, good advice I reckon.

I cleaned each pin on each valve with 1200 grade wet 'n dry (a bit mind numbing) and dipped them in switch cleaner when the original stage was getting noisy but it didn't fix it. That was when I thought these old valves have probably given of their best decided to send it back to Icon. It did come back silent, just not sounding quite as it did before.

Fitting the Teslas and the Mullard from Nigel is going to be a useful and educational experience for me. Just hope it's going to be rewarding too!

[Ali Tait]

A good trick is to stand the valves in a saucer and fill the saucer with Coca Cola up to the top of the pins. Leave overnight and then remove and clean the pins. Works a treat.

[wee tee cee]

A good trick is to stand the valves in a saucer and fill the saucer with Coca Cola up to the top of the pins. Leave overnight and then remove and clean the pins. Works a treat.

I used to use coca cola to take the rust of the blades on my ice skates.

Heaven only knows what its doing to yer tummy but I find diluting it with bourbon or vodka works wonders(maybe not for valves though!)

[bob4333]

4 Teslas arrived from Langrex this morning - outstanding service - with pins as bright as you could wish for, no visible tarnishing or anything similar but I'll still give 'em a wipe over.

If I can fight my way through the tinsel and fairy lights tonight I could be in for a treat.

But what's it going to be? Hot turkey and roast potatoes :) or cold sprouts and congealed gravy?? :(

[Ali Tait]

I used to use coca cola to take the rust of the blades on my ice skates.

Heaven only knows what its doing to yer tummy but I find diluting it with bourbon or vodka works wonders(maybe not for valves though!)

Aye I'll second that!

[mik_rik]

Ecc88 were not designed as an audio valve iirc.Good idea to check each one for it being microphonic by tapping each one gently while it is switched on ,and no music playing,with a pen or something similar ,any ringing noise heard through the speakers will show microphony and return for exchange.If any of the original valves were microphonic then this would possibly explain the drop in sound quality.Very good advice to get a good nos Ez81 ,Mullard,Telefunken etc - sound better and for your peace of mind that it won't fail and possibly take out the mains tranny.

[Jazid]

At risk if sounding like a scratched record, if you put new valves in you owe it to yourself to let them burn in for 50 hours or so. Their characteristics change in this time, and unlike most 'burn in' there is measurable science behind it. If you don't you will have no reference point to return to whilst churning other valves. It may be boring, but you can just stick a cheap cd player into the amp, turn off the power amp, and leave it on repeat for a few days before trying again.
As an aside I had an Icon PS 1.2 that developed rustling noises. It was a valve base, not the valves. The only way that I know to clean bases is to unsolder them and soak in acetone or similar, but if you get that far you might as well solder a new one in for the cost... As another aside don't use switch cleaner unless you're sure there's no lubricant in it - it can cause trouble at the temperature that valve pins are exposed to.

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[bob4333]

Ecc88 were not designed as an audio valve iirc.Good idea to check each one for it being microphonic by tapping each one gently while it is switched on................

Very good advice to get a good nos Ez81 ,Mullard,Telefunken etc - sound better and for your peace of mind that it won't fail and possibly take out the mains tranny.

I've just looked this up. "The ECC88 was designed for service as a cascode amplifier in the front ends of VHF radio receivers." Does that ring true with your understanding...?

I've not given them a tap yet - useful to know. Nigel (vinylspinner) has despatched a Mullard EZ80 for me to pop in and see if there's any change to the valve installed by Icon.


At risk if sounding like a scratched record, if you put new valves in you owe it to yourself to let them burn in for 50 hours or so. Their characteristics change in this time, and unlike most 'burn in' there is measurable science behind it. If you don't you will have no reference point to return to whilst churning other valves. It may be boring, but you can just stick a cheap cd player into the amp, turn off the power amp, and leave it on repeat for a few days before trying again.

As an aside I had an Icon PS 1.2 that developed rustling noises. It was a valve base, not the valves. The only way that I know to clean bases is to unsolder them and soak in acetone or similar, but if you get that far you might as well solder a new one in for the cost... As another aside don't use switch cleaner unless you're sure there's no lubricant in it - it can cause trouble at the temperature that valve pins are exposed to.



I understand. I'd say the new valves replaced by Icon in August might just have 50 hours on them by now - that's a reflection of how disappointed I was with how the PS3 now sounded compared with how it was before. I was even looking at alternative makes of phono amp it was that underwhelming. But I knew what this thing is capable of and just wanted to get it back.

I also had a PS 1.2 before this: thought it good enough to seek out a listen to a PS 3.

[bob4333]

Right, I put the 4 Teslas in at 3:30 yesterday afternoon (pins wiped with isopropyl alcohol, not switch cleaner this time), switched on and went back at 4:00 for a quick listen. Apart from a break for dinner, that “quick listen” finished at about half ten. What an unbelievable difference just a change of manufacturer can make with the same valve.

They’re E88CC’s changed for E88CC’s, so like for like: except one set is from Electro Harmonix, the other's from Tesla – you wouldn’t recognise the sound as being from the same spec.

It’s all come back: the huge dynamic range stretching from low down creamy bass notes to the razor sharp but delicate tinkling of cymbals and high hats. The punch, attack and above all the explosive energy has returned, with a top end sweetness that may even surpass the original.

I’m not a valve nut but after this I could very well become one: I knew the sound this PS3 was capable of and thought I’d lost it. I’ve now got it back and have proven to my satisfaction that different manufacturers valves can make a huge difference.

So, two things remain.

If it’s like this now it’ll be interesting to hear any changes that occur as the 50 hour burn in arrives. I’ll wait until the 50 hours have passed before putting in the Mullard EZ80 from Nigel to see if it improves further.

And if changing to the Teslas can accomplish so much – what of the remaining valves in the system? And what of other E88CC's ??

A big thanks to all who’ve provided help, advice and guidance.

[Bigman80]

Right, I put the 4 Teslas in at 3:30 yesterday afternoon (pins wiped with isopropyl alcohol, not switch cleaner this time), switched on and went back at 4:00 for a quick listen. Apart from a break for dinner, that “quick listen” finished at about half ten. What an unbelievable difference just a change of manufacturer can make with the same valve.

They’re E88CC’s changed for E88CC’s, so like for like: except one set is from Electro Harmonix, the other's from Tesla – you wouldn’t recognise the sound as being from the same spec.

It’s all come back: the huge dynamic range stretching from low down creamy bass notes to the razor sharp but delicate tinkling of cymbals and high hats. The punch, attack and above all the explosive energy has returned, with a top end sweetness that may even surpass the original.

I’m not a valve nut but after this I could very well become one: I knew the sound this PS3 was capable of and thought I’d lost it. I’ve now got it back and have proven to my satisfaction that different manufacturers valves can make a huge difference.

So, two things remain.

If it’s like this now it’ll be interesting to hear any changes that occur as the 50 hour burn in arrives. I’ll wait until the 50 hours have passed before putting in the Mullard EZ80 from Nigel to see if it improves further.

And if changing to the Teslas can accomplish so much – what of the remaining valves in the system? And what of other E88CC's ??

A big thanks to all who’ve provided help, advice and guidance.I'm glad the Telsas are doing the job [emoji6]

Personally the Mullard valves are very good but a little on the warm side for me. I go for transparency so the Telefunken do it for me. The Tesla are very close and a lot less.

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[indie roehre]

"And what of other E88CC's ??"
I have the Tesla's also, but for example the Mullard ECC88 or Philips Miniwatt ECC88 is much better. They have a warmer character, better voices, better midrange. And midrange is important, because it is the way we communicate.

regards.

Knut

[Bigman80]

"And what of other E88CC's ??"
I have the Tesla's also, but for example the Mullard ECC88 or Philips Miniwatt ECC88 is much better. They have a warmer character, better voices, better midrange. And midrange is important, because it is the way we communicate.

regards.

KnutPhillips miniwatt better than Tesla? In what??

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[indie roehre]

In all the ways I like tube sound. Mids, better voices, more emotion. Like a warm jacket. Johnny Cash' s fragile voice on American recordings was more realistic and dramatic for me. But Tesla had better dynamics. One Phonostage with ECC88 was the Puresound P10. But what is better? Ok, it sounds different. But in a way that I'll always prefer a Mullard.

[Bigman80]

In all the ways I like tube sound. Mids, better voices, more emotion. Like a warm jacket. Johnny Cash' s fragile voice on American recordings was more realistic and dramatic for me. But Tesla had better dynamics. One Phonostage with ECC88 was the Puresound P10. But what is better? Ok, it sounds different. But in a way that I'll always prefer a Mullard.If you're after tubey warmth then I can see what you're saying. I did like the Mullards I tried. They were excellent. Personal choice in all things.

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[bob4333]

I'm glad the Telsas are doing the job [emoji6]

.........I go for transparency so the Telefunken do it for me. The Tesla are very close and a lot less.

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Thanks. After hearing the difference the Teslas made I'm encouraged to experiment. I have a watch on a set of Telefunken's that I may have a punt on if things don't get too silly. Tested but no declaration of age - should I be concerned? Trouble is the phono stage is sounding so good now I'm loathe to touch it in case I jinx it. :lol:

[Jazid]

Age doesn't matter, condition and test results do. Look at the glass base for smokey discolouration which can indicate amount of use. Personally if the bases are grey I avoid them, as issues like c/h leakage can start to show and are rarely (read never) disclosed. Given how long they will last you'd be better off getting clean examples and paying more, or go to a trustworthy dealer like Edicron or Wiwi tubes.

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[Bigman80]

You should also look out for Fisher valves which were made by Telefunken and often get sold for less due to not being labelled as Telefunkens. The badge value as it were.

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