View Full Version : the speaker quest/dream
hi everyone
ive seriously been thinking of building these speakers in the new year..
http://www.zaphaudio.com/SB12.3/
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/3-way-speaker-kits/zaph%7Caudio-sb12.3-sb-acoustics-12-dual-midrange-3-way/#tab-3.
i dont know if anyone has built any,if so it would be nice to hear some input on them,more so if anyone has actually heard a pair.
any way i think we can mostly agree there not to pretty to look at which eventually brings me to the crux of this post.
im thinking of building them in the vein of some atc style speakers....please see my walt disney quick sketches below compared to the original offerings..
now my questions are to the people that know about such things are..
1)by doing away with the original lower front part of the baffle under the 12 inch driver (around 7.5 inches) will i be screwing up the baffle step/cross over function compared to how the original was made to function?
2)if im lucky enough to get away with xover problems from question one then will the original width front baffle that i have showing in my mickey mouse sketches protruding by about 2 inches be enough not to effect the original xover function where ive had to make the enclosure bigger behind it to make up the lost volume(in case you havent noticed...i really dont want to get into sorting out or changing the designers xover and hard work):)
any help/views or advice is as always appricated.
regards
paul:cool:
no one got any ideas or answers to my questions??
please,pretty please...please dont force me to post these questions on diyaudio.com,it gets nasty on there half the time:lol::lol::lol::lol:
walpurgis
17-12-2017, 00:21
Why do you want to build this particular speaker?
hi geoff
mainly for presence and scale,music you feel that only tends to come with some big displacement.
im using tannoy 6xtf at the moment,and there great,and probably idea size for my room but....instruments don't carry the weight or scale to my ears,this isn't nothing to do with having mega low bass or anything like that,its about adding weight and scale above anything else...hope that makes sense,this late at night im known to speak gibberish,actually i do that at anytime of the day or night:lol:
plus ive always fancied owning a proper 3way speaker,its been on my bucket list for awhile now:D
I don't understand why you don't want to follow the cabinet design exactly. Your design moves the woofer closer to the floor, that will change the balance of the sound in the bass.
If it were me I'd follow the design exactly, I don't see any advantage in not doing that, and you could get into all sorts of difficulties and waste a fair bit of money.
They look like they would be pretty good. If you build them and they work you can knock me up a pair? ;)
I don't understand why you don't want to follow the cabinet design exactly. Your design moves the woofer closer to the floor, that will change the balance of the sound in the bass.
If it were me I'd follow the design exactly, I don't see any advantage in not doing that, and you could get into all sorts of difficulties and waste a fair bit of money.
They look like they would be pretty good. If you build them and they work you can knock me up a pair? ;)
hi martin
my micky mouse sketches are not to scale or size,just a rough outlook of the overall design i have in mind:)
the drivers will all be in the same position as the original designers plan,including the 12" driver in relation to the floor (the base and speaker cabinet support base with be 7.5" to compensate for the amount taken out from the original concept)
regarding "advantage" by changing to my design....there is none:D
,im just not into the whole 2001 monolith look of the original design and wanted to adapt it to something i on a personal level find more appealing and interesting and to my tastes....more so as i would be staring at them every day and night:lol:
regards
paul
I'm sure I'm not the only person to read this and think maybe you could look for a design you don't need to adjust to suit.
believe me andrew....ive looked.
not many 3way 12 driver kits out there....wide baffle boxy speakers are just not the done things these days.
theres obviously afew atc 50/100 clones out there that are ideal,alas they are nearly double the price to build....but im forever looking,it is a quest/dream after all:lol:
walpurgis
18-12-2017, 09:49
An alternative to big bass drivers is a transmission line type speaker. They offer the kind of deep potent bass you may like.
Have you looked at the IPL site? They offer several self assembly kits. http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/
hi geoff
spoken to ivor at ipl many a time.
unfortunately transmission line will not work in my size/shape room,plus the only 3way he does is the s5 transmission line,ive got no hope in hell making that work in this room:lol:
but i appreciate the heads up,you reminded me of the good old days playing with tdls back in the day:)
walpurgis
18-12-2017, 10:15
Why does it need to be three way Paul?
because its on my bucket list geoff:lol:
35 years odd ive been in this game and it dawned on me that ive never built or owned a true 3 way speaker,so i got to thinking...before i peg it i best sort that situation out:mental:
if i look at just 2way kits then none come with a big displacement driver that will give me the scale and weight/inpact im after.
i know i could add a sub to said 2way,ive been there and done that many a time...just doesnt work for me.
am i a tricky customer or what:lol::lol:
walpurgis
18-12-2017, 10:52
Here's a two way that would do the job. You'll be skint for a year after buying them though. :D
http://i64.tinypic.com/35it8ae.jpg
Altec Model 19.
:lol::lol::lol:
there great geoff....ill take them,do they come with the trolleys included?....think im gonna need a bigger sitting room:lol::lol:
it really is a shame that for the most part people desire slim small driver speakers,i know its the fashion and need,but some lovely big nicely designed corner speakers(kits) with manly drivers at a sensible price would suit me down to a tee, belive me when i say ive looked for them:D
and just to add...im always skint,so being skint for another year to have those speakers sounds good to me:lol:
RothwellAudio
18-12-2017, 11:17
Those kits don't look cheap or look like their design has been cobbled together. My guess is that they'll be affected too severely by a cabinet change to ignore, and it would be a shame to lose the performance that the designer has worked so hard to achieve.
I'd say either make them as designed or make something else.
andrew
ive taken note of what you have pointed out.
regarding building something else...i would if there was something that fitted my criteria,alas i haven't found nothing else yet,and ive been searching for quite awhile.
im gonna try to get in touch with the designer if i can,this is a old design and he may have no interest responding to my half baked questions,but i shall see if i can get a response and some answers to my questions and ideas,if i get no response then i may have to ponder on it all a bit more,over a nice bottle of wine of course until the light bulb above my head lights up!!:)
I've also looked for something similar with no joy, unless you count some £10K JBLs. Which I don't since I don't have £10K spare.
it seems no-one makes a speaker, either made up or with a kit, that has some serious bass presence anymore, at least at the affordable end of the market. Transmission lines have the presence but lack the definition ime.
I'm looking at knocking up a cheap clone of the JBL 4365 using an affordable 15 inch driver run most of the way up and a BMR driver for the mid/top since suitable compression drivers are too expensive. Obviously in a large, sealed cab to optimise the bass performance.
I've hopefully got someone lined up to do the woodworking as I'm far too cack handed. Crossover will probably be digital. I reckon that could be done for under two grand, less if you can build the cabs yourself.
Okay so it isn't a 3 way but then it doesn't need to be. You could always add a supertweeter above the BMR to make it into one.
That should give you slowly rolled off bass down to 20 hz and no lack of presence or slam from the fifteen. Should in theory be better in the bass than the kit you linked to. Cabs will be big though, around 200 litre. But you could make them look any way you wanted.
Eddingdales will shift serious air down to 30-odd Hz.
hi andrew
off the top of my head you may struggle to find a 15" driver that will fit your needs(at a good price to performance ratio),most with a decent freq bandwidth that goes up to meet another driver usually need a ported enclosure,even then i doubt the low end response will be that low within a half sensible enclosure volume(i thought of building something like this,a diy version would certainly work out a lot cheaper:)https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/acuhorn-15-loudspeakers/ ).
of course i havent looked at every driver out there,just a few when i was researching for some ideas,as for a 200litre cabinet...:lol:
feel free to stick up your ideas and plans here if you like,always interested in that kind of stuff...probably why im so slow at building anything,to busy reading about it:lol:
im of the same view as you regarding transmission line bass quality,i do like a nice transient response that a sealed enclosure brings to the party,hence my desire for a sealed design,although it has to be said that a well designed ported design can be no slouch these days.
also like you i would love some of those mega expensive jbls...if only:cool:
RothwellAudio
18-12-2017, 15:13
andrew
ive taken note of what you have pointed out.
regarding building something else...i would if there was something that fitted my criteria,alas i haven't found nothing else yet,and ive been searching for quite awhile.
No large 3 way kits??? :scratch:
Ok, I haven't really looked much myself and it's your criteria that count, not mine, anyway, but how about something from this guy?
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
He seems well-respected and appears to know what he's doing and he has 10 designs in the large 3-way category. Anything there for you?
walpurgis
18-12-2017, 15:34
I have to admit. I don't seem to get on with big three way or more speakers. They can sound OK, but somehow just don't do it for me. I've heard literally hundreds and when I get home and bung the Tannoys on, I sigh with satisfaction and relax :). Oh, and they do scale and bass just fine!
No large 3 way kits??? :scratch:
Ok, I haven't really looked much myself and it's your criteria that count, not mine, anyway, but how about something from this guy?
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
He seems well-respected and appears to know what he's doing and he has 10 designs in the large 3-way category. Anything there for you?
hi andrew
thanks for the link,spent alot of time reading about that guys work and findings,along with his kits and builds.
and believe it or not theres nothing there that fits what im after,the big 3ways are either ported,use mega expensive drive units or the cabinet construction is way beyond my ability and tools,or all three:lol:
he certainly is very skilled and talented,as where im not:D,he certainly has some great design speakers i would love to hear and play with,and i dare say there's plenty there i would fall in love with if i could audition them,but thats the rub...i cant:rolleyes:
so your right,there is plenty of 3ways kits,but a 3way using a 12" driver in a sealed enclosure, which is what im after...not so much:)
hi andrew
off the top of my head you may struggle to find a 15" driver that will fit your needs(at a good price to performance ratio),most with a decent freq bandwidth that goes up to meet another driver usually need a ported enclosure,even then i doubt the low end response will be that low within a half sensible enclosure volume(i thought of building something like this,a diy version would certainly work out a lot cheaper:)https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/acuhorn-15-loudspeakers/ ).
of course i havent looked at every driver out there,just a few when i was researching for some ideas,as for a 200litre cabinet...:lol:
feel free to stick up your ideas and plans here if you like,always interested in that kind of stuff...probably why im so slow at building anything,to busy reading about it:lol:
im of the same view as you regarding transmission line bass quality,i do like a nice transient response that a sealed enclosure brings to the party,hence my desire for a sealed design,although it has to be said that a well designed ported design can be no slouch these days.
also like you i would love some of those mega expensive jbls...if only:cool:
I'm happy to pay a premium for the bass drivers if I have to, also happy to port the cab if I can't find a fifteen that will work in a sealed box. The idea that all ported speakers are flawed is something that you only hear the inexperienced saying. Most big Tannoys have some sort of vent in the enclosure, no-one complains about them.
200 litres is ballpark, but if you want that bass presence then the cab has to be in that arena. The good Tannoys all have big enclosures, that's not a coincidence.
Eddingdales will shift serious air down to 30-odd Hz.
They do and I came close to buying some on a couple of occasions. A seriously capable speaker and good all-round with no apparent weaknesses, but they just don't have the bass presence of a big Tannoy or JBL.
I have to admit. I don't seem to get on with big three way or more speakers. They can sound OK, but somehow just don't do it for me. I've heard literally hundreds and when I get home and bung the Tannoys on, I sigh with satisfaction and relax :). Oh, and they do scale and bass just fine!
geoff i would be very happy with some big 12 or 15" tannoys in a modern enclosure and tweaked to my taste,i love tannoy,its just there so expensive that i can only dream of them along with the jbls mentioned earlier.
buying decent big second hand true tannoy drivers is just as expensive....so whats a guy to do.
im not saying a 3 way is gonna be the be all and end all for me,in fact i might think they suck,and could work out a costly mistake and waste of time and effort,thing is im just not going to know until i hear it for my self in my system...then ill know for sure...maybe:doh:
of course if anyone has some cheap 15" dc tannoy drivers going dirt cheap,then feel free to get in touch:lol:
walpurgis
18-12-2017, 16:41
The idea that all ported speakers are flawed is something that you only hear the inexperienced saying.
True. Some of the best deep and well defined bass I've heard has been from big Altecs with ports. Lovely!
Actually, the old KEF Concerto gets satisfyingly solid bass from its B139 driver in a ported box.
Need Blue Peter to do a make your own Tannoy drivers segment. Cut the cones out of a cereal box, make the pepper-pot horns from...old pepper-pots. Bit of double-sided sticky tape, and your golden.
Need Blue Peter to do a make your own Tannoy drivers segment. Cut the cones out of a cereal box, make the pepper-pot horns from...old pepper-pots. Bit of double-sided sticky tape, and your golden.
:lol::lol:lol::lol: then another segment covering....lets build a tannoy xover ,then a final segment in the blue peter tannoy series....lets build the idea tannoy enclosure:):cool:
now if only...that would make a tv licence worth the money...almost!!
RothwellAudio
18-12-2017, 17:04
...believe it or not theres nothing there that fits what im after,the big 3ways are either ported...
Fair enough, but if you dropped the "must be sealed-box" criterion you would have a lot more options to choose from.
I must admit the sealed-box idea does appeal to me too, though some of the comments have made me question that.
Fair enough, but if you dropped the "must be sealed-box" criterion you would have a lot more options to choose from.
I must admit the sealed-box idea does appeal to me too, though some of the comments have made me question that.
hi andrew
i totally agree with you...i just seem to like making things hard for myself.,,hell we dont want things to easy do we,wheres the fun in that!!
i have no problems with ported designs,been using plenty on and off in 30 plus years,and most have been bloody great,no right or wrong with any of these methods,at end of day its how there implemented and designed and the compromises chosen that makes or breaks them to these ears and system,pretty much the same with anything in hifi.
im only aiming for a sealed design now as it must be at least 20 years since ive heard or had that type of enclosure in my system,and just want to try that approach to things again...im a simple man at heart:D
Just buy some Ditton 44. Sealed box 12 inch bass driver, quite big, under £200. Or were, no idea what they go for now.
I found them a bit disappointing bass-wise. Not much depth or slam and a bit muddy. Which goes to show that a sealed 12 inch bass driver doesn't automatically mean great bass. Neither does a fifteen, necessarily. Also got some Akai SW175, sealed box, quite large, about the same size as the '44. 15 inch bass driver. Loads of slam, best bass tone I think have ever heard on any speaker, you can tell the make of the bass guitar being played, they really differentiate. But bass is quite light, no real weight down at the bottom.
The JBL 4365 on the other hand, tremendous bass weight and presence plus everything else too. The difference is they are properly big cabs. And have multiple ports.
This is why I'm thinking bigger the better. Those reggae sound systems the Jamaicans build, you never see dinky little bass cabs in use do you? I have a pal who has two Velodyne 12'' sealed subs, 1000w amps built in. But they are little cubes, barely more than 12 inches on a side. They do low bass, flat down to 20 hz, but they still don't have the presence. That's all about the volume of air you've got loading that sucker. At least that's my theory.
martin
i think you should be on the lookout for "Those reggae sound systems the Jamaicans build" and all you prays will be answered:)
joking aside,how the speakers load the room is also going to be a factor,as you point out,its more to do with a series of properties coming together rather then one single aspect of a speaker design,and at the end of the day room size,placement and all those humdrum bugbears that compromise us all regarding speakers will probably have the biggest impact on the final results thats achieved within a typical ish domestic environment.
funny enough one of the most impressive speakers i ever heard for weight/scale and impact only used 7 inch drivers and ribbons....a fair few 7 inch drivers and ribbons mind you....plenty of routes to meet at the same destination it seems:D
maybe i should revisit the linear array route again while im at it:lol::lol:
walpurgis
18-12-2017, 21:57
i think you should be on the lookout for "Those reggae sound systems the Jamaicans build" and all you prays will be answered:)
Some of those can be mighty impressive. I've heard them. Big reflex bass horns and compression drivers with cellular horns and mega US power amplification.
I've always liked the idea of the linear array. They say that in theory at least it is close to ideal.
Personally I want speakers that sound how I think speakers should sound like. That's probably different for everyone.
Presumably you’ve seen that the designer has a 16 by 18 foot room and feels this is on the smaller side? They also need to be some six feet from side walls. In the UK this means a bloody big room!
Some of those can be mighty impressive. I've heard them. Big reflex bass horns and compression drivers with cellular horns and mega US power amplification.
Like Mungo's HiFi, who you'll see set up at various festivals around the UK. [emoji4]
https://www.houseofreggae.de/news/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/mungos-hifi-sound-system.jpg?x60626
Presumably you’ve seen that the designer has a 16 by 18 foot room and feels this is on the smaller side? They also need to be some six feet from side walls. In the UK this means a bloody big room!
I think the six feet from the sides is just the designer's ideal. There's nothing in the design to make them any more picky about positioning than any other speaker. No box speaker likes being up against side walls, after all, but in normal houses no-one gets to have six feet either side, and it isn't a major problem.
I think the six feet from the sides is just the designer's ideal. There's nothing in the design to make them any more picky about positioning than any other speaker. No box speaker likes being up against side walls, after all, but in normal houses no-one gets to have six feet either side, and it isn't a major problem.
totally agree with this....i have the idea size speakers for my room,maybe even they are to big.....but they lack weight,scale etc,any idea speaker for my room will.
whats going to make me seem even more crazier to folk is i have the exact size room he warns against,but at least i dont have a 60" tv,mines a 50":lol:
designers quote "This is not the system to use if you have a 12 foot room with a 60" TV in it"
ive read his design and spec pages,goals and aims and build on these speakers so many time,yet it seems i failed to notice the answer to my very question i put up on this post....i think i need better glasses,or glasses at least:lol:
designers quote..
"in case it's not obvious, build mirror image pairs. Aside from that, there is some flexibility. You may build shorter and deeper if you want, as long as the baffle width does not change and the internal volume does not decrease. Remember that the design axis is the tweeter. If you like a leaner and deeper bass, you could increase the volume by 1-2 cubic feet to reduce the effective enclosure Qtc. You'd get a little less in the 50-100 Hz range and a little more in the 20-30 Hz range."
i may build a separate 1-2 cubic feet chamber that can be accessed if needed into my flakey redesign to give me a bit of a option regarding tuning the mid/mid bass performance....options are always good:cool:
ti may build a separate 1-2 cubic feet chamber that can be accessed if needed into my flakey redesign to give me a bit of a option regarding tuning the mid/mid bass performance....options are always good:cool:
Good idea. Or you could build them larger to begin with and just stick stuff inside to reduce the volume. A couple of bricks.
When I was building speakers years ago I did find it a pain with infinite baffle speakers because you have to take the bass driver off each time you want to piss about inside. That's annoying plus your screw holes get more and more worn, especially if you use chipboard for the cab. Ended up with the crossovers outside the speaker so I could mess about with values without all the mucky muck. These things are all worth considering before you start.
walpurgis
19-12-2017, 18:24
When I was building speakers years ago I did find it a pain with infinite baffle speakers because you have to take the bass driver off each time you want to piss about inside. That's annoying plus your screw holes get more and more worn, especially if you use chipboard for the cab
The answer to that is to use good birch ply for the baffles and bond threaded inserts in.
And, if anybody says that will alter the 'tonality' of the cabinet, then the cabinet design is flawed and introducing colourations (they all do anyway). Yes. I know Spendor etc., used bendy boxes in interpretations of BBC designs! Those were all flawed, but the flaws were cleverly incoporated. :)
I was on the dole at the time, couldn't afford birch ply. Or even none-birch ply. On the other hand I did have all day every day to mess about with them.
i was actually toying with making the rear panel of the speaker enclosure removable with the help of some seal/gasket type solution for any situations that arise where i have to go... "into the box":)
saying that ,there never should be much of a reason for that as i had already decided to mount the xovers out board,like martin ,i already know from past experience builds what a pain in the arse it is if you have to keep going into the cabinet to twiddle and mod xovers etc.
regarding making them bigger to start with and pad them out to suit sounds like a better plan then my original idea:cool: i just need to work on my design and see how much volume i can squeeze out of it,main reason is because there pretty big to start with:lol:
regarding cabinet materials and its effects it has on the sound,once you have heard and used maggies,open baffles etc you realise no matter how good the materials used on a cabinet,it will always have a sound ,for me its going to be a question of what i can get local to me at a good price that dictates what i use...which is proberly code for "lots of mdf":D
I used MDF for my second pair, which were a custom build so I wasn't paying. Not that I built the cabs myself, too cack handed for that.
Have you got all the kit that you need, circular saw and all that? I had a mate who was a cabinetmaker, very good one too, would only take him about an hour to knock it all together.
EDIT MDF dust is carcinogenic so you need a mask with it.
I used MDF for my second pair, which were a custom build so I wasn't paying. Not that I built the cabs myself, too cack handed for that.
Have you got all the kit that you need, circular saw and all that? I had a mate who was a cabinetmaker, very good one too, would only take him about an hour to knock it all together.
EDIT MDF dust is carcinogenic so you need a mask with it.
does your cabinet maker friend fancy a working long weekend holiday in sunny cornwall?:D fish and chips included just to sweeten the deal.
like you im cack handed to,also lacking on the wood tools front .... but where there's a will there's away, they just may end up not the prettiest speakers around,and the project make take a while:lol:
may see if there's a cnc cutting service type supplier anywhere close to me here,trouble is drivers,xovers,wood and all the other gubins is working out a fair few quid already for this project so i might not have the luxury or funds to go that route.
anyone know how much wilmslow charge for a flat pack bare mdf one off cabinet? anyone used them for such a task?...even if they where a good price,having it posted down to me certainly isn't going to be cheap,so once again thats proberly not going to be a option.
thanks for the danger warning regarding the mdf,i was aware of it,but is always good to point it out and remind folks from time to time just in case some dont know:respect:
heres a quick mock up template and shape of the floor space the new speakers will take up compared the tannoys that are currently residing (all to scale):D
looking at the picture...i reckon i could go bigger:lol::lol::lol:
Of course all cabinets have signatures, and commercially it is too expensive to do the intricate work required to reduce them significantly, but the amateur has the advantage that he can do the work.
MDF is very good, corner bracing makes it better, and numerous braces strategically placed will really deaden it, much more than commercially found.
If you use BAF stuffing you can increase the effective volume by up to 40% as well, or use this effect to reduce the box size.
'T' nuts are really the way to go with fixing, and personally I never liked the BBC floppy box approach, quite apart from the bass loss it incurs.
I know a guy who had three lymph nodes removed from around his neck because they were cancerous, and he was a cabinet maker, and from memory walnut is the worst.
walpurgis
19-12-2017, 23:40
EDIT MDF dust is carcinogenic so you need a mask with it.
Cough, cough, gag, splutter.....Whats that you say? :eek:
walpurgis
19-12-2017, 23:44
If you use BAF stuffing you can increase the effective volume by up to 40% as well, or use this effect to reduce the box size
For sealed enclosures.
this sealed design uses ...
"Each cabinet uses 3.5 pounds of Acousta-Stuf internal fill. Use 3 pounds in the main woofer chamber and ½ pound in the midrange chamber. You should also line the rear wall and side walls of the cabinet with acoustic foam sheets"
so should have afew options regarding fine tuning the final sound,of course having to many options can drive a man to drink and sleepless nights too,but im already there on that:lol::lol:
one thing i have noticed is that you cant get 19.1mm mdf over this side of the pond...18mm seems to be the thing here.
dont really understand the use of acoustic foam sheets being used...surely when there stuck on to the walls of the cabinet that will eat up some of the internal volume..more reading i guess:)
RothwellAudio
20-12-2017, 11:12
dont really understand the use of acoustic foam sheets being used...surely when there stuck on to the walls of the cabinet that will eat up some of the internal volume..more reading i guess:)
The air inside the cabinet acts like a spring. Imagine putting your finger over the end of a bike pump to block it and pushing down on the handle - it feels springy. A larger volume of air acts like a softer spring. Replacing some of the air in the cabinet with suitable materials will soften the spring even more, as if it was a bigger air-only cabinet.
hi andrew
thanks for the explanation,i pretty much understand that from past build and experiments,but you explain it really nicely.
i was thinking this acoustic foam sheets they were talking about for this speaker build was like a solid thick affair(like deflex panels...if anyone can remember them...are they still about i wonder?)thats why i thought it would "eat" into the cabinet volume,but seems that's not the case,i still think i will go with some sort of bitumen type panels to help quieten things down...lots of ideas and thoughts swirling around in my head at the moment,along with a fair percentage of wine:lol:
I used Deflex panels on some ported speakers instead of wadding them. They are very good. Also irresistible to touch. A really weird material. I don't like wadding at all, having tried my original design with and without, I preferred without. So I was determined not to use any in the second build.
Last time I looked Deflex don't seem to be going anymore but you could get something the same somewhere I suspect.
I used Deflex panels on some ported speakers instead of wadding them. They are very good. Also irresistible to touch. A really weird material. I don't like wadding at all, having tried my original design with and without, I preferred without. So I was determined not to use any in the second build.
Last time I looked Deflex don't seem to be going anymore but you could get something the same somewhere I suspect.
yes,i certainly remember them having a weird feel about them that was quite addictive:lol:
its funny how things seem to come and go,i remember having some good results with them in afew speakers....so remember cutting some up to glue to the back of speaker drivers in my quest to leave no stone unturned,or to cover every square inch of said speaker internally with deflex panels...probably why im skint now...bloody expensive from what i remember:D
think im gonna make the back panel in my design removable,just in case i want to get serious and play again with the tweaking side of things.
fatmarley
20-12-2017, 22:33
If you use BAF stuffing you can increase the effective volume by up to 40% as well, or use this effect to reduce the box size.
Sorry to be pedantic but this Isn't true (I bet people are thinking "Oh no, not that know It all ba***ard again). Adding stuffing lowers Qtc and Is good for reducing the bass hump you get with a box that's too small for the driver. A bigger box will have a lower Qtc and also more low frequency extension, but with reduced SPL potential at the lowest frequencies.
From the many reference books on the subject of speaker design, it is true Matt, and I'm sorry but I rather accept the opinions of professionals and academics in the field.
There are two major aspects of taming cabinets, absorbing energy from the panels, often done with bitumen which dissipates it as heat, and lead sheet has been used, and damping the energy flying around in the cabinet.
A lining of BAF or foam will help to absorb M. Freqencies, and stop them re-exiting through the port or speaker cones. In a well designed system there should be no need to dampen the fundamental resonance at bass F's, but absorbing internal MF's is desirable.
What you state is mostly right, but there is effective increase in volume due to the inclusion of internal absorbtion material.
Martin Colloms is one reference stating this.
fatmarley
20-12-2017, 23:32
What I said was a fact, not an opinion. It can easily be modelled in software.
RothwellAudio
21-12-2017, 10:13
Adding stuffing lowers Qtc and Is good for reducing the bass hump you get with a box that's too small for the driver. A bigger box will have a lower Qtc...
I'm confused. Qtc is lowered in both instances. Doesn't that suggest that adding stuffing is doing the same thing as increasing cabinet volume?
Has the same effect Andrew, though achieved differently.
I suggest Matt, that computer modelling has similar deficiencies to those outlined on one guy's bottom line on Tesla; numerous software designed solutions and analyses, many of which bear little or no relation to reality.
You could of course write to the various academics and correct their misconceptions, I'm sure they would be grateful.
When I added stuffing to my 2 way infinite baffle speakers the only effect was to degrade sound quality quite noticeably. I was unable to perceive any benefits whatsoever. I used the highly recommended (at the time) long haired sheep wool, piled in the base and more of it suspended in a 'basket' made of garden netting. Still have a box of it somewhere.
fatmarley
21-12-2017, 17:30
I'm confused. Qtc is lowered in both instances. Doesn't that suggest that adding stuffing is doing the same thing as increasing cabinet volume?
Increasing cabinet volume will give you more low frequency extension. Stuffing reduces the Impedance peak at resonance and lowers efficiency at the lowest frequencies. There's no free lunch.
fatmarley
21-12-2017, 17:33
Has the same effect Andrew, though achieved differently.
I suggest Matt, that computer modelling has similar deficiencies to those outlined on one guy's bottom line on Tesla; numerous software designed solutions and analyses, many of which bear little or no relation to reality.
You could of course write to the various academics and correct their misconceptions, I'm sure they would be grateful.
The computer modelling has been backed up by real measurements. You just need to search to find It.
I don't think there would be any point writing to anyone because all this stuff Is common knowledge now.
I. Stuffing reduces the Impedance peak at resonance and lowers efficiency at the lowest frequencies. There's no free lunch.
Is that good or bad? It sounds like it should be a good thing.
fatmarley
21-12-2017, 17:45
When I added stuffing to my 2 way infinite baffle speakers the only effect was to degrade sound quality quite noticeably. I was unable to perceive any benefits whatsoever. I used the highly recommended (at the time) long haired sheep wool, piled in the base and more of it suspended in a 'basket' made of garden netting. Still have a box of it somewhere.
If the frequency response was flat before stuffing, then as I said above, adding stuffing can reduce the low frequencies. It can also change the frequency response higher up In the frequency range but all this depends on the type of stuffing, how much and where It was placed In the cabinet.
fatmarley
21-12-2017, 17:48
Is that good or bad? It sounds like it should be a good thing.
Reducing the Impedance peak Isn't a bad thing but obviously losing efficiency could be considered bad.
Reducing the Impedance peak Isn't a bad thing but obviously losing efficiency could be considered bad.
Yep I got that was bad thing.
What design would you recommend for both deep bass and high efficiency (94db or over)?
walpurgis
21-12-2017, 17:59
What design would you recommend for both deep bass and high efficiency (94db or over)?
Not many domestically acceptable size speakers that can do that.
Assuming 'domestically acceptable' isn't an issue...
walpurgis
21-12-2017, 18:26
Tannoy System 15 DMT.
Yep I got that was bad thing.
What design would you recommend for both deep bass and high efficiency (94db or over)?
the ones im looking at building here with a twist :lol:
"The reduced baffle step compensation option brings the midrange and tweeter level up quite a bit, running them full blast without padding resistors. If you need to do this you can, however your amplifier better have some high current capability because the impedance gets quite low in this case. This can barely be considered a baffle step adjustment, given the type of system. It's more of a tonal balance adjustment. The system is 94 dB sensitive at 2.83 volts in this configuration."
fatmarley
21-12-2017, 19:32
What design would you recommend for both deep bass and high efficiency (94db or over)?
I've used the SB15NRX with excellent results before, and Zaph Is a well respected designer, so I'd take a gamble on his big 12" 3-way design.
I've used the SB15NRX with excellent results before, and Zaph Is a well respected designer, so I'd take a gamble on his big 12" 3-way design.
good to hear...as i certainly shall be:D
10 day wait on the tweeters from falcon acoustics,they have the other drivers in stock..or so they say:)
ill probably crack on getting the wood and building the cabinets first,that could take me a while:lol:,and i better wait till after christmas just to keep the peace and goodwill,and to make sure the turkey isn't basted in mdf dust:lol::lol:
that gives me time to do a bit better sketching and calculating for the slight tweaks i have in mind
Much 'common knowledge' is just plain wrong, because it is passed around as hearsay rather then as a result of direct disciplined study and research.
walpurgis
21-12-2017, 23:21
I do like a good speaker build. Time I did one too. Done a couple of restorations in the last few years, but that's much easier.
fatmarley
22-12-2017, 00:31
I do like a good speaker build. Time I did one too. Done a couple of restorations in the last few years, but that's much easier.
I finished the crossovers for my third pair about a month or so ago and I'm already looking at drivers for my next build. The unfortunate part about It Is I'm going to have to remove the drivers from one pair and skip the enclosures because we don't have room for three pairs of speakers.
I do like a good speaker build. Time I did one too. Done a couple of restorations in the last few years, but that's much easier.
i usually curse and swear and probably a whole heap of other things to when i build some,but deep down and after the event i always think and remember "that build" with fond memories and in the great fun enjoyable category,more so if they actually sound half decent and i like them:lol:
geoff,make it a new years resolution (and one your not going to break:))
there's just so many to choose from out there,anything out there pulling at your strings?
I do like a good speaker build. Time I did one too. Done a couple of restorations in the last few years, but that's much easier.
here you go geoff...keep you busy:)
http://www.eraudio.com.au/DIY_Speaker_Kits/diy_speaker_kits.html
walpurgis
22-12-2017, 08:21
geoff,make it a new years resolution (and one your not going to break:))
there's just so many to choose from out there,anything out there pulling at your strings?
I don't need to look "out there". I've various pairs of good full range drivers needing cabinets (horns maybe?). A pair of 10" Tannoy dual concentrics waiting for use. Boxes of other interesting drivers and a huge selection of crossover parts.
I don't need to look "out there". I've various pairs of good full range drivers needing cabinets (horns maybe?). A pair of 10" Tannoy dual concentrics waiting for use. Boxes of other interesting drivers and a huge selection of crossover parts.
ah,you take me back to my heyday when my household was filled like that...i would always be going out to the shed/garden or where ever to knock up some design or try some theory out that i had read about or when a idea that had popped into my head:)
looking back they were the best of times for me on the hifi front,then i downsized the mansion and got a bit tired of my half baked and half finished carkeress and projects which didn't just consists of speakers it included amplifiers,cables,cd player,in fact any and everything hifi,nothing was safe from my hands or ideas...or my power tools and soldering iron!!.
then one day i sold it all,i had a desire to have a "nice normal decent looking and sounding hifi system" so i invested alot into bryston amplifiers and preamps(so love there stuff),some nice maggie speakers(love there stuff too) along with a few interesting front ends etc.......of course,needless to say thats not how the story ends:lol:
anyway,after that long spill geoff i just want to say i envy you and all those great hifi bits and bobs you have,and "YES" get building and put that stuff to use...it don't get sweeter(or dustier) then that imho:cool:
i was always partial to ted jordans jx full rangers,made some great sounding speakers with those,ted was also a nice friendly helpful guy,not to mention a master in his field imo,dearly missed bless him.
so?have you started building yet?:lol::lol::lol:
I have great ambivalence over this, being pulled between the extremes of 'Just maybe this will be a breakthrough', and 'Oh I cannot stand this mess in my lounge for another month'.
The results are not always worth the pain and discomfort - I do not have a workshop - with scattered tools, wood, EPDM sheet, drivers, coils and wire etc., and the general mess.
Visitors think I am mad doing it, and as the years go by, with a slight loss of dexterity and lacking a really good measurement facility, I have to wonder if I can really compete with professionals with all of their resources.
I have great ambivalence over this, being pulled between the extremes of 'Just maybe this will be a breakthrough', and 'Oh I cannot stand this mess in my lounge for another month'.
The results are not always worth the pain and discomfort - I do not have a workshop - with scattered tools, wood, EPDM sheet, drivers, coils and wire etc., and the general mess.
Visitors think I am mad doing it, and as the years go by, with a slight loss of dexterity and lacking a really good measurement facility, I have to wonder if I can really compete with professionals with all of their resources.
i so hear what your saying dennis,and totally agree,but you left out the major plus on a good day....."ITS SO MUCH FUN":lol:
regarding visitors,they stopped visiting along time ago....this hifi journey can sure be a lonely road at times:D
ok...no sniggering please:lol:
and none of this is to scale or anything as clever as that,i just thought i would fire a quick picture up of what im planning regarding my build.
so here it is,nothing set in stone,just a rough plan,so feel free to shot it down,add input,point out errors,poke fun,say it sucks or what ever...better to sort that all out now before i actually try to build it....let open season begin:lol::lol::lol:
RothwellAudio
22-12-2017, 15:06
The results are not always worth the pain and discomfort - I do not have a workshop - with scattered tools, wood, EPDM sheet, drivers, coils and wire etc., and the general mess.
EPDM? I had to look that up :scratch:
ethylene propylene diene monomer
RothwellAudio
22-12-2017, 15:11
so here it is,nothing set in stone,just a rough plan,so feel free to shot it down,add input,point out errors,poke fun,say it sucks or what ever...
I have a concern over the cavity in the base being coupled to the main enclosure. I could be wrong but it looks like two resonant cavities with a coupling "port" between them. Not sure if that's the case and it would create problems or if the two volumes of air would simply combine as if they were one large volume of air. I don't know enough to be certain but it might be a potential problem.
I have a concern over the cavity in the base being coupled to the main enclosure. I could be wrong but it looks like two resonant cavities with a coupling "port" between them. Not sure if that's the case and it would create problems or if the two volumes of air would simply combine as if they were one large volume of air. I don't know enough to be certain but it might be a potential problem.
hi andrew
thanks for pointing out your concerns and thoughts....its what im after...plenty of input:eyebrows:
im not that skilled or wise either,i was hoping it would act as a combined space to make the volume up,i assumed that by looking at the original design drawings where he uses the same arrangement of sorts via a internal brace in the lower section that ive cut in mine.
ill have to have some more read ups:) but i appreciate your input.
for quick reference and keeping it all in easy viewing...
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