Re-Evaluation.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Guys...its re-evaluation time.


Spent most of the day swapping isolation items, and mains cables around in an attempt to get to the bottom of what a particular mystery item can and can't do in the context of my system and well it has been a most interesting process. I may do it as a write up for SOG, or not as the case may be. However it got me thinking about the way many of us, perhaps settle to easily for a particular status quo in our systems.

I think it is way to easy to make assumptions that we have got the best out of our systems. How may of us regularly try a new bit of kit that we then dismiss to quickly because it just does not do what we want. The question I would like you to ask yourselves is...Did I really do everything I could, to make sure I have not missed out on a great addition to my system? I think the answer is probably no. We settle for the way we have our systems set up in the present, and without thinking to much assume, or feel we can force a new item into the old set up, without trying to discover what it needs to give its best. The process of messing around today has shown me that..well frankly I probably have not explored the way my system is set up as much as I should, or thought I had.

Is this the complacency we settle into with age ? The enthusiasm/questioning of youth replaced by the "if it works okay, why try to fix it" thought. Well if you haven't tried all the things you can, how do you know it isn't broken, or at the very least not doing what it can.

I thought I had my system "sorted" well I now know that it isn't "sorted". It needs a good spring clean in terms of trying different things out with it. By different things in my case I mean, mains cables, isolation products and interconnects...in your case though it might mean checking your speakers (insert most likely component or components in your case) are really properly positioned. Are they level ? Are the drivers nice and tight ? etc, etc, etc.

I think we settle on a thing that works way to easily, and thus miss the next step, the next thing we could do, but don't because we think we have arrived at the destination (folks there is no final destination, if we have the time, will and money to continue exploring). When I was new to audio I tried everything, including ridiculous things with an abandon and fire that perhaps only youth has. I want that back, and today I have decided to re-evaluate everything. The way my system is set up will be re-tried and again and so on, until I am sure that nothing that I have, which I can try has been missed. It scares me that a component or cable, might be rejected because a basic thing like run in has been missed (it does exist and is a real thing), though this is a mistake I would not make, though those who don't acknowledge it do. "This sounds wrong or I don't like it"you tell yourself, but you can only say that if you have explored everything. If people say a thing needs a couple of hundred hours of run in then try it...if it still is not right, after all that, then it probably is not right....but if you don't try all the things you can, then well frankly you may be wasting money and time. By the way I am not talking here about fundamental things..such as a 2 watt amp not being able to drive 80 db 4 ohm speakers. I am talking about the next steps once you have a system or group of components which should work technically and does, but can be better by attention to details.

For those who think such things are foo or the products or deranged minds..well keep on kidding yourselves if you want, but I can assure you that different mains cables, cones, isolation platforms and the like, can and do change the sound of your system, or component. I have heard it time and again today ( and in the past). I know this stuff works, but I had just settled on what seemed to work best for me and had left it at that...oh boy was I wrong.

Today my mystery component has been bright and forward, warm and veiled, open and detailed, punchy and musical (as it is at the moment) and all because I changed what it sat on, and what was plugged into it (mains cable). The same 3 albums were used throughout, and it was frankly really scary just how easy it was to miss (or mess up) what this item can do. Assumption and a lazy attitude can all to easily mean you miss something wonderful.

So Guys get of your backsides and have another look at your set ups, and see if you can push the boundaries of your system further. Trust me it can be done and even for free, with just a bit of open minded trial and error and time. You should be able to squeeze more out of what you have, and if you are trying something new, well give it a chance.

Go to it..you won't regret it.


Regards D S D L

[Joe]

Good call. My main system's about as good as it gets (IMO) but the upstairs one needs sorting; new speakers are definitely needed and the turntable could do with an overhaul.

[Steve Toy]

Neil is right. He is probably blessed with a lot of options for experimentation and the inclination to swap things about.

As much as I like experimenting , I'm actually rather lazy, prefering instead to just listen to the music until the next big change comes along. The last big thing was my mains upgrade and that was big, so big in fact that the music emerging from my system sounds so much more real, vibrant, poignant, even from the other side of the house with the door to the listening room left open. The mains spur itself was instantly more impressive but the earth rods gave me more music.

Revisiting stuff I've already covered I just can't bing myself to do, even if perhaps I should.

A new DAC is where it's at chez moi. The one I have is brilliant, especially considering what it cost, but my system cries out for the ultimate digital front end...

Meanwhile, back to perspective, the current DAC gives me a glorious midrange, top end, rhythm and timing and I wouldn't go back to using the Bel Canto CD2 as a stand-alone player and it costs £2700 these days and with its AOS/Tube Distincions PSU, well over 3k. That's not willy-waving. It's just to show how good that little Williams Audio DAC really is.

[jandl100]

Yep - I remember where you are coming from, Neil. :)

I used to obsess a LOT about footers and supports. A new component always got the works in terms of trying all the various combos of platforms and carbon pucks and RDC cones and sorbothane chunks and ball bearings in a cup and .....

Sigh - maybe I'm just too old now, but I don't do that any more.

Complacent? Well, maybe. Lazy? - no, I don't think so - I still putter around quite a lot with cables, I guess. And the speakers get re-positioned quite a lot! :) ... the latter is a good tweak to help bed a new component into the system, and is usually required when a new source or amp component comes along.

... I guess that what it comes down to is that I am no longer sure that footers are that important. I still have them in my drawer, but .... :scratch:

Maybe I'll try that old malarkey out again today! :eek:

[DSJR]

I recently re-evaluated a preamp I'd not taken to after ten years away from it and was very surprised how good it always was once it had a couple of days in place to allow me to get used to it again. The music is great and the difference in production, mastering, venue etc are a joy to hear without being exaggerated.. When i return to the valve jobbie that charms my heart, I have now had a couple of things confirmed that I shall implement from scratch - inverting absolute phase etc....

[Spectral Morn]

Yep - I remember where you are coming from, Neil. :)

I used to obsess a LOT about footers and supports. A new component always got the works in terms of trying all the various combos of platforms and carbon pucks and RDC cones and sorbothane chunks and ball bearings in a cup and .....

Sigh - maybe I'm just too old now, but I don't do that any more.

Complacent? Well, maybe. Lazy? - no, I don't think so - I still putter around quite a lot with cables, I guess. And the speakers get re-positioned quite a lot! :) ... the latter is a good tweak to help bed a new component into the system, and is usually required when a new source or amp component comes along.

... I guess that what it comes down to is that I am no longer sure that footers are that important. I still have them in my drawer, but .... :scratch:

Maybe I'll try that old malarkey out again today! :eek:

Hi Jerry

You should revisit your footers etc. I was truly shocked how much this well made, solid item could be affected by what it sat on, and what mains cable was hooked into it. You never know, that item you like could become one you love, or more dramatically a poor sounding one into a great sounding one. I used to try all this out years ago, and you know as you get older and more experienced in things audio..well it become very easy to slide into just going with your first inclinations as to what can do what to any bit of kit. Yesterday reminded me that you really must try lots of things to find out exactly what any item can do or not as the case may be. Doing less short changes you, your system, the component in question and the music you listen to.

As an aside the AI Series 500 as I used to use it (20 years ago) had 4 large Audio Quest sorbathane pucks under it, at the front, where the valves are, and three cones at the back under the transformers. This then sat on a platform made from a special type of concrete, which also had 4 Sorbathane pucks and 1 large cone at the back (under the platform) and that cone was positioned directly under the middle one the amplifier case was sitting on. This arrangement gave the best results with the AI amplifier, in my then system...nothing else sounded as good. It took me months of fiddling to come up with that set up...and it worked. My current point is, and this includes me, we I suspect just don't go to these lengths any more and we should.

Regards D S D L

[jandl100]

Hi Jerry

As an aside the AI Series 500 as I used to use it (20 years ago) had 4 large Audio Quest sorbathane pucks under it, at the front, where the valves are, and three cones at the back under the transformers. This then sat on a platform made from a special type of concrete, which also had 4 Sorbathane pucks and 1 large cone at the back (under the platform) and that cone was positioned directly under the middle one the amplifier case was sitting on.
Regards D S D L

:doh: :lol:

Oh dear. Yes, I remember the same sort of shenanigans from my yoof!

Ummmm .... I really don't want to go there again. That way lies madness, imho.

I now well recall how I slowly weaned myself off such things by taking them away bit by bit and not (if I was honest with myself) actually hearing any differences. I think we have to be careful of the placebo effect. I honestly think that has a lot to do with it. I know this is a subjective forum (and I am a subjective kind of guy - who also has a solid scientific education background) but we do have to be careful not to let our enthusiasms carry us away.

I recall a letter to Stereophile where the guy drew a parallel with tweaks he did to his car to improve petrol consumption - to cut a long story short, he did a load of mods and added additives and was convinced he had achieved significant improvements. Unlike the audio situation he could actually measure it, though, and when he did he found the fuel consumption was exactly the same as before! It is a hard lesson for enthusiasts like us, but you do have to be careful!

Are you sure you haven't just hit a mid-life crisis and are desperately trying to recapture the excitements and enthusiasms of a time gone by? ;)

I honestly don't mean this post to come over as too negative but we do have to be careful with subjective impressions and, yes, I will dig out my RDC1 cones and carbon pucks etc today and have a play! :cool:

[chris@panteg]

I have just made a major change to my set up ' substituting AE Linear 3 's for the Snell's ,
mainly because i wanted to keep them away from my horde of marauding moggies (5 of the little buggers) .

The Snell's have gone on eBay ' they have never sounded right since the 2nd audio's and Voyd went ! the AE's and cambridge 740a just gel together with a wonderful open and effortless soundstage .

Strange thing is the reviews say they are nothing special really ' but i like em .

[Joe]

I know this is a subjective forum (and I am a subjective kind of guy - who also has a solid scientific education background) but we do have to be careful not to let our enthusiasms carry us away.


I combine complete ignorance of science with an entirely subjective approach of 'if it sounds good, it is good', both tempered by sheer bloody laziness. So though I could spend a fortune on tweaks and fancy supports, I'm usually far too idle to do so.

[Spectral Morn]

:doh: :lol:

Oh dear. Yes, I remember the same sort of shenanigans from my yoof!

Ummmm .... I really don't want to go there again. That way lies madness, imho.

I now well recall how I slowly weaned myself off such things by taking them away bit by bit and not (if I was honest with myself) actually hearing any differences. I think we have to be careful of the placebo effect. I honestly think that has a lot to do with it. I know this is a subjective forum (and I am a subjective kind of guy - who also has a solid scientific education background) but we do have to be careful not to let our enthusiasms carry us away.

I recall a letter to Stereophile where the guy drew a parallel with tweaks he did to his car to improve petrol consumption - to cut a long story short, he did a load of mods and added additives and was convinced he had achieved significant improvements. Unlike the audio situation he could actually measure it, though, and when he did he found the fuel consumption was exactly the same as before! It is a hard lesson for enthusiasts like us, but you do have to be careful!

Are you sure you haven't just hit a mid-life crisis and are desperately trying to recapture the excitements and enthusiasms of a time gone by? ;)

I honestly don't mean this post to come over as too negative but we do have to be careful with subjective impressions and, yes, I will dig out my RDC1 cones and carbon pucks etc today and have a play! :cool:

Nope...just re-discovered the very audible effect that set up has on kit. No placebo effects, just an audible change in sound presentation.

Re the AI500 at the time that isolation arrangement worked best and sounded best with it...anything else did not sound as good, and removing elements of the platform it was on...reduced its sound quality...go figure.

I am with Joe on this one. If you hear an improvement or a change you like, then that's all that matters...regardless of how you get there..or what you use. As to RDC cones, they are very good and worth trying....though with some kit they can make things a bit to warm and laid back.


Regards D S D L

[jandl100]

Fair enough, Neil. Thanks for the reply.

After many years of trying various cones and things I finally settled on the RDC1 cones as the best 'all round' solution for when I wasn't happy with the sound of a piece of kit. It did often result in a perceived improvement.

I guess these things may come in phases - you gradually tend to take things for granted and then you have a sudden epiphany moment - and you realise that certain things do matter after all!
====

Tbh - I was coming back on to AOS to delete that post of mine, as I no longer felt very cumfy with it!

[Mike Reed]

I have a friend who recently lent me some i/connects and home-made isolation platforms, and he gets really pissed off when I tell him 'I haven't done/tried it yet'.

I definitely belong to the idle camp, but in reality, like Steve, only turn my amp's on to listen to music. I hate farting around with these tweaks as they often involve moving/powering down kit, or at best, fumbling !

Luckily I'm almost sorted with the addition of a HiLine, which surprisingly does improve on my others (always sceptical).

[John]

Great post Neil
I used to be like that but found for me it started getting in the way of enjoying the music I was listening to the changes as well as the music; thankfully these days I can switch this crytical listening on and off; but I am aware for myself its simply about enjoying the music! So tend to turn this on only when I have too

[Spectral Morn]

Fair enough, Neil. Thanks for the reply.

After many years of trying various cones and things I finally settled on the RDC1 cones as the best 'all round' solution for when I wasn't happy with the sound of a piece of kit. It did often result in a perceived improvement.

I guess these things may come in phases - you gradually tend to take things for granted and then you have a sudden epiphany moment - and you realise that certain things do matter after all!
====

Tbh - I was coming back on to AOS to delete that post of mine, as I no longer felt very cumfy with it!

No problem Jerry

I was happy with what you wrote.

Regards D S D L

[Themis]

Very good idea Neil ! Tomorrow will be re-evaluation day for me ! I'll report any findings, promise. ;)

[Spectral Morn]

Very good idea Neil ! Tomorrow will be re-evaluation day for me ! I'll report any findings, promise. ;)

I look forward to reading about that Dimitri.


Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

From The Grave

[MartinT]

I've been going through this a lot recently, Neil. Lots of shenanigans because the cables I ordered don't sound like older versions of the same cable. As you could imagine, they were the last suspects because I knew these cables so well. Only I didn't! Much substituting later and they're going back, but it was a lesson in how a problem can be inaudible at first but starts getting under your skin and is a pain to track down.

[Clive]

I think I know where Jerry's coming from. It's easy to obsess about cables & supports etc. They matter but once they are fundamentally correct most further tweaks exist to drain you wallet make you feel like you improved the sound. Decent cables, as most here are very well aware, do not need to cost an arm and leg. Supports can be done cheaply, I had a great isolation shelf made from a piece of slate, I then glued 3 feet to it. My cables and supports don't get messed about with now. There are always improvement to the equipment, I'm messing around with the speakers currently and have fallen for a particular phono stage. The differences from these bits of kit are fundamental.

[Spectral Morn]

Thanks for the resurrection Chris.

The main thrust of my original piece was that I see way too many folks buying new kit and dismissing it out of hand before they explore all the ways in which it interacts with the other system components, the cabling used both interconnects and mains cables and what it sits on.

I think too many assume that their first effort is the definitive one and give up at that and then move a piece on at a loss. My experience suggests that quite often we have to really push the boat out to explore all the pluses and minuses of a product new to our system.

There is also the strong possibility that because we don't push things we can also miss the fact that an item sitting in our system working away might actually offer more if only we tried a few new things with it.

Its a question of having an open mind and never assuming that the journey is over because quite often its not.


Regards D S D L