Noise reduction

[moodybuilder]

I saw the earthing cable by gutwire audio with a plug on one end and a phono plug on the other do these work remove noise make sound stage larger

[walpurgis]

Seems a pretty dubious product to me and very pricey considering what it is. I see there are no UK dealers, I wonder why?

[bobvfr]

What noise, there really shouldn't be any noise coming from any vaguely decent Hi-Fi.

[Primalsea]

I’m generally try to be quite open minded, but NO!

What this will do is is make a connection between your signal ground and mains ground. In any decent equipment this will be done internally properly, so this will create a ground loop. The only way I can see this making a positive difference if if you had a ground loop that was causing a hum, but then I would look to solve it by moving equipment connections and changing mains blocks, etc, rather than creating another loop that hopefully diverts the current enough that you dont hear it anymore.

[Macca]

They claim it 'dramatically lowers the noise floor.' Easily measurable but they provide no measurements to show this. So whatever it does, if anything, it almost certainly doesn't do it the way they claim it does. And it is expensive for a bit of wire, a spade connector and a socket.

[paulf-2007]

It works by relieving gullible people of their money

[bumpy]

I cant believe how almost unanimously you lot jump to destroy products, when not one of you has heard it in use. What a sad situation.

[walpurgis]

I cant believe how almost unanimously you lot jump to destroy products, when not one of you has heard it in use. What a sad situation.

The 'function' of this cable is nonsense. Why would anybody waste time considering it, let alone spending money on it.

And I don't appreciate your judgemental stance! Ask somebody who can give a professional opinion about this cable instead of jumping on your high horse.

[bobvfr]

I cant believe how almost unanimously you lot jump to destroy products, when not one of you has heard it in use. What a sad situation.

How can you hear something that lowers the noise created by modern (Or even ancient) Hi-Fi, I do remember my first Amstrad amp with sliders, that made a noise when you changed the volume, but other than that haven't heard a peep out of any of my systems from the cheapest to the most expensive since I got rid of that amp in about 1971 unless I actually play some music.

No tell a lie, my QUAD 33/405 makes a stonking big clonk when I turn it on, but after that, nothing, no noise.

[Primalsea]

Have you read the description on the Gutwire website? It’s just nonsense, it really is.

[walpurgis]

http://gutwire.com/?page_id=1342

[bumpy]

How can you hear something that lowers the noise created by modern (Or even ancient) Hi-Fi, I do remember my first Amstrad amp with sliders, that made a noise when you changed the volume, but other than that haven't heard a peep out of any of my systems from the cheapest to the most expensive since I got rid of that amp in about 1971 unless I actually play some music.
.

Noise is not about crackles, pops or hiss its about the inky black between notes.

[bumpy]

Have you read the description on the Gutwire website? It’s just nonsense, it really is.

I read it, but there's not one manufacturer that doesn't guild the lily. Does that make every product rubbish.

There's still a lot of discoveries to be made regarding earthing, cables etc

[bumpy]

What noise, there really shouldn't be any noise coming from any vaguely decent Hi-Fi.

I think you fail to understand what noise floor means.

[bumpy]

Ask somebody who can give a professional opinion about this cable instead of jumping on your high horse.

I'd rather ask someone who has listened to a system with and without it.

[realysm42]

I've not heard the product, nor do I pretend to understand the science behind the arguments (both for and against).

I find it disheartening how people (a mod, even!) have labelled Bumpy as being on his high horse. I think he's reasonable in his wanting people with empirical experience to comment on the thing before slamming it. Especially with how he's requested it. I expected better from this forum.

Also, I agree about people's understanding of noise. There's more to it than hearing hiss from your speakers people. It's the type of noise you don't always know you have, until it's gone (and possibly reintroduced).

In case anyone's interested:

https://audiobacon.net/2017/12/09/gutwire-perfect-ultimate-ground-cables-review/

Different technologies, but I've used Akiko audio tuning sticks on my speaker cables and USB to good effect. Also I use and Acoustic Revice RGC-24 under the mains transformer in my DAC, wouldn't take it out now.

[walpurgis]

I find it disheartening how people (a mod, even!) have labelled Bumpy as being on his high horse. I think he's reasonable in his wanting people with empirical experience to comment on the thing before slamming it. Especially with how he's requested it. I expected better from this forum.

Really? I and others were talking about the cable, to which we are entitled an opinion, right or wrong. Comments about us were unwarranted.

[realysm42]

Really? I and others were talking about the cable, to which we are entitled an opinion, right or wrong. Comments about us were unwarranted.

I know what you and others were talking about.

I agree you're entitled to your opinion.

Bumpy observed the situation is sad, I don't see why you've interpreted that as him making unwarranted comments about you.

[Macca]

I'd rather ask someone who has listened to a system with and without it.

The problem with just listening is that it gives you no idea as to what is happening. A subjective improvement may actually be a degradation but you won't find that out from playing a couple of songs. If it lowered the noise floor as they claim they would provide proof of it. Why wouldn't they? They would sell more and no-one would question the product.

Why pay them more than 200 dollars for this bit of wire when you could achieve the same effect for ten dollars? If you knew what was causing the effect?

[bumpy]

The problem with just listening is that it gives you no idea as to what is happening.

I would ask the question "does it matter". We are all after best sound quality at a price you can afford, so if it offers you that, the rest is of little significance.

I spent my younger days reading reviews and specs, listening to people who had never really earned the right to give comment, and making judgements about extended base, sweet treble etc etc. In hindsight, what a nonsense that was. Now I just listen to see if I enjoy it. If I do, then am I willing to pay the price for that level of enjoyment?

Surely that's all that really matters. Oh, and an open mind really helps.

[Marco]

I sympathise here with Chris, but can also see the other side of the argument, which is basically trying to protect folk from wasting their money on snake oil (and there's a lot of it about), which I would ask Chris to consider.

Therefore the 'negativity' expressed towards this product was well-intended. With these types of things it's usually best to remain highly sceptical of the claims made, until proved otherwise.

However...... Let's also remember that AoS is primarily a subjectivist 'ears first' forum, so whilst keeping the above in mind, we have to guard against automatically rubbishing things, the design of which may *appear* to have little grounds in science. The very last thing I want to see here are people discussing items such as this, and for them simply to be shot down.

So, folks, let's bear that in mind and not stifle discussions in that way, or the possible learning of something new! :cool:

Marco.

[Macca]

I would ask the question "does it matter". We are all after best sound quality at a price you can afford, so if it offers you that, the rest is of little significance.

I spent my younger days reading reviews and specs, listening to people who had never really earned the right to give comment, and making judgements about extended base, sweet treble etc etc. In hindsight, what a nonsense that was. Now I just listen to see if I enjoy it. If I do, then am I willing to pay the price for that level of enjoyment.

Surely that's all that really matters. Oh, and an open mind really helps.

It's a bit of wire with a spade connector, a plug socket and some heatshrink and it costs over 200 dollars. My open mind tells me that is a rip off, even before we get to their nonsense explanation for how it does it does. Why would I pay them 200 bucks when I could make one for a tenner? Their price is entirely based on the idea that they have invented some miracle device and you have to pay a premium for that when in fact it is just a bit of wire. There's so much of this in hi-fi nowadays and it needs calling out for what it is.

[Marco]

I would ask the question "does it matter". We are all after best sound quality at a price you can afford, so if it offers you that, the rest is of little significance.

I spent my younger days reading reviews and specs, listening to people who had never really earned the right to give comment, and making judgements about extended base, sweet treble etc etc. In hindsight, what a nonsense that was. Now I just listen to see if I enjoy it. If I do, then am I willing to pay the price for that level of enjoyment?

Surely that's all that really matters. Oh, and an open mind really helps.

I completely agree, Chris. At the end of the day, if a subjective improvement is heard with anything, consistently and repeatedly, especially in different environments and situations, then to the listener that improvement is REAL, regardless of whether it's objectively provable or not. I would cite the effect others and I can clearly hear with regards to 'audiophile mains leads', as being a case in point.

However, as I've said, please don't take the criticism you've encountered here towards this product personally, as a slight against you, as it isn't. Far better for people to make you think twice about whether something has a genuine beneficial effect or not, by scrutinising it and being scpetical, than for them simply to pat you on the back, as it were, when it may simply be a complete waste of money :)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

It's just a bit of wire. Dress it up in fancy sleeving and bung posh plugs on it if you like and hint at all sorts of unsubstantiated effects, but it's still just a bit of wire.

As for 'noise floor', that's an unquantified term. The S/N ratio of a piece of equipment or the system, is what is meant I think.

Folk can spend their hard earned money any way they choose, but none of mine would be heading in the direction of an overpriced wire.

[Marco]

It's just a bit of wire

Indeed, but it's not necessarily simply about what it *is*, but rather how it's being applied...

Marco.

[walpurgis]

I shall make a replica of this 'wire' and try it. Any wire should do, it carries no signal or power, it's just an earth.

I know what will happen. Either nothing or there'll be hum introduced. A series diode could be interesting, but then it would cease to be an earth.

It wouldn't surprise me if some bright spark suggests I use screened cable. But then, where would the screen earth to?

[Marco]

Go for it. Haven't Tannoy done something similar for years, by providing their latest speakers with an earth terminal?

Anyway, I'll be interested in your findings :)

Marco.

[mikeyb]

I shall make a replica of this 'wire' and try it. Any wire should do, it carries no signal or power, it's just an earth.

I know what will happen. Either nothing or there'll be hum introduced. A series diode could be interesting, but then it would cease to be an earth.

It wouldn't surprise me if some bright spark suggests I use screened cable. But then, where would the screen earth to?Pity you can't cryo treat it, make sure you use Kevlar coated cable, it will need burnt in, a cable lifter should improve it no end.

And for god's sake don't get it wet or feed it after midnight [emoji23]

[walpurgis]

Go for it. Haven't Tannoy done something similar for years, by providing their latest speakers with an earth terminal?

Marco.

They do. Not sure what is earthed though. Metal speaker parts like the chassis and magnets or metal crossover enclosures (heaven forbid) perhaps?

[walpurgis]

Pity you can't cryo treat it, make sure you use Kevlar coated cable, it will need burnt in, a cable lifter should improve it no end.

And for god's sake don't get it wet or feed it after midnight [emoji23]

The 'wire' will actually be run through a sealed bath of liquid Helium containing graphene particles and polished gold plated pure Platinum connectors will be employed. The whole thing, resting on hand turned African Blackwood supports along its length. :)

[RothwellAudio]

A system's zero volt line does not need to be connected to mains earth. Equipment metalwork does need to be connected to mains earth for safety, unless it is double insulated. Making random connections between zero volts and mains earth may occasionally result in an improvement (if you're lucky) but is more likely to cause problems.

Audio systems shouldn't be treated as some kind mysterious void where black arts and ignorance rule and anything can and should be tried out to see if it makes an improvement, especially where mains electricity in involved. The worst case scenario is somebody gets electrocuted.

[walpurgis]

Ah. But this cable has a "Bincho-Tan enabled" wall plug. Says so in the blurb. :D

[mikeyb]

Ah. But this cable has a "Bincho-Tan enabled" wall plug. Says so in the blurb. :DSo it's extra burnt in [emoji6]

[walpurgis]

So it's extra burnt in [emoji6]

Presumably. It won't fit UK sockets though. One of those exotic 'Pound Shop' international adaptors would be required. ;)

[bumpy]

It's a bit of wire with a spade connector, a plug socket and some heatshrink and it costs over 200 dollars. My open mind tells me that is a rip off, even before we get to their nonsense explanation for how it does it does. Why would I pay them 200 bucks when I could make one for a tenner? Their price is entirely based on the idea that they have invented some miracle device and you have to pay a premium for that when in fact it is just a bit of wire. There's so much of this in hi-fi nowadays and it needs calling out for what it is.

If it was that easy we would all be kitted out with £100 systems, using bell wire and cheap kettle cables. Surely there is some credibility for suppliers that have spent 100s of hours in R & D and material costs in order to produce products that will work for some people. Why must suppliers of 'exotic' kit be painted with the same brush, being exploitative con artists. Long live the innovators I say.

Nobody is being forced to buy this sort of stuff and my objection is the inference that anyone who does, is gullible and easily conned. Its almost as if anyone who has money to spend this way is not to be trusted out alone.

Thankfully few people on here come out and destroy products of modest cost as being cheap worthless tat. Why is the inverse true?

[Primalsea]

If anyone seriously wants to make or even use one I would suggest they are very careful. Potential can exist between earths of different mains wall outlets, possibly between multiways connected to the same double wall socket. If you plug this into a spare wall socket you could get an awful surprise if your equipment earth is at a different voltage to the mains earth you plug the cable into.

[Marco]

They do. Not sure what is earthed though. Metal speaker parts like the chassis and magnets or metal crossover enclosures (heaven forbid) perhaps?

My point being that if a company, such as Tannoy, have implemented it into the design of their speakers, then one would imagine that it (and the principle behind it) has a genuine purpose.

Marco.

[RothwellAudio]

Surely there is some credibility for suppliers that have spent 100s of hours in R & D and material costs in order to produce products that will work for some people. Why must suppliers of 'exotic' kit be painted with the same brush, being exploitative con artists. Long live the innovators I say.
This isn't exotic kit, it's a piece of wire to connect the 0V side of an RCA socket directly to mains earth. No R&D is required. Some knowledge of electronics is required to realise that this is a dubious thing to do whether it's done with cheap wire or expensive wire. Lack of such knowledge facilitates sales. In my book, taking advantage of people's lack of knowledge looks like exploitation. Add in the high price for something which could even be dangerous and it goes beyond exploitation.


If anyone seriously wants to make or even use one I would suggest they are very careful. Potential can exist between earths of different mains wall outlets, possibly between multiways connected to the same double wall socket. If you plug this into a spare wall socket you could get an awful surprise if your equipment earth is at a different voltage to the mains earth you plug the cable into.
Good advice.

[Macca]

I sympathise here with Chris, but can also see the other side of the argument, which is basically trying to protect folk from wasting their money on snake oil (and there's a lot of it about), which I would ask Chris to consider.

Therefore the 'negativity' expressed towards this product was well-intended. With these types of things it's usually best to remain highly sceptical of the claims made, until proved otherwise.

However...... Let's also remember that AoS is primarily a subjectivist 'ears first' forum, so whilst keeping the above in mind, we have to guard against automatically rubbishing things, the design of which may *appear* to have little grounds in science. The very last thing I want to see here are people discussing items such as this, and for them simply to be shot down.

So, folks, let's bear that in mind and not stifle discussions in that way, or the possible learning of something new! :cool:

Marco.

it isn't that so much as the fact that they claim it does things it can't do. It may well have a beneficial effect on the sound and that is fine. No-one is questioning people's subjective experiences. What is being questioned is what it does and how it does it.

For example say I came to your place and said give me £200 and I will improve the sound of your system for just £200. You pay me, I mess with your system and yes, it does sound better. You happily pay the £200. Then I reveal that all I have done is turn the volume up half a dB. You would want your £200 back because you could have done that yourself.

On the other hand if I told you I had performed some secret technical process you would be recommending me to your friends - 'I don't know what he does but I listened before and after and it sounded better after.'

[bumpy]

I shall make a replica of this 'wire' and try it. Any wire should do, it carries no signal or power, it's just an earth.

I know what will happen.

it's just an earth.
I think this shows on which mast you have already pinned your flag to.

Let me guess what will happen. If you hear nothing you will declare that the whole concept of acoustically improved earthing through different topology and material is a nonsense.

[bumpy]

This isn't exotic kit, it's a piece of wire to connect the 0V side of an RCA socket directly to mains earth. No R&D is required.


If I remember right you are the person who says no mains cable can sound better than a kettle lead. For that reason in my eyes you have no street cred. Apologies if I have this wrong

[bumpy]

it isn't that so much as the fact that they claim it does things it can't do. It may well have a beneficial effect on the sound and that is fine. No-one is questioning people's subjective experiences. What is being questioned is what it does and how it does it.


Questioning is great, as are warnings about potential safety issues. But, uninformed and unsubstantiated condemnation of potential sound quality improvements merely shows personal bias.

[Macca]

. But, uninformed and unsubstantiated condemnation of potential sound quality improvements merely shows personal bias.

No personal bias here, it's no concern of mine what other people spend their money on. I just object to these companies treating people like mugs with their horseshit explanations to justify why a bit of wire needs to cost $200.

[RothwellAudio]

If I remember right you are the person who says no mains cable can sound better than a kettle lead. For that reason in my eyes you have no street cred. Apologies if I have this wrong
I don't remember ever saying that, but even if I did it wouldn't change the laws of physics or electronics (which is only a sub-set of physics laws anyway).
The whole point of understanding a subject is to be able to make reliable predictions and avert disaster. Putting my hand in the fire doesn't make me "open-minded", it makes me stupid. I've learned that lesson and can predict the results if I was to do it again.
Randomly linking 0 volts to mains earth is not a reliable way to improve an audio system.

[RothwellAudio]

...uninformed and unsubstantiated condemnation of potential sound quality improvements merely shows personal bias.

What about informed condemnation?

[agk]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=earthing+plug&client=ms-android-tmobile-gb&sa=X&biw=360&bih=560&tbs=vw:l,ss:44&tbm=shop&prmd=sivn&srpd=7459146098764394914&prds=epd:1986939931176877770,paur:ClkAsKraX5OWA5Zo liNZl54IdF6nei3Mfx7BMgTkOyHe-t3RGzzhlpLF4V6n99Vn8nHIe7rcp32TpmzaVVxDP2AQQVIIc_N ZEPXQWCZVM-evGy-3LBtiWC-whBIZAFPVH700_vbFzUdcACAokeLpbrL1Rv2yTg,cdl:1,cid: 15404906719868042294&ved=0ahUKEwiN-rz60InYAhWsLsAKHTqbDQUQgTYIpAQ

[Primalsea]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=earthing+plug&client=ms-android-tmobile-gb&sa=X&biw=360&bih=560&tbs=vw:l,ss:44&tbm=shop&prmd=sivn&srpd=7459146098764394914&prds=epd:1986939931176877770,paur:ClkAsKraX5OWA5Zo liNZl54IdF6nei3Mfx7BMgTkOyHe-t3RGzzhlpLF4V6n99Vn8nHIe7rcp32TpmzaVVxDP2AQQVIIc_N ZEPXQWCZVM-evGy-3LBtiWC-whBIZAFPVH700_vbFzUdcACAokeLpbrL1Rv2yTg,cdl:1,cid: 15404906719868042294&ved=0ahUKEwiN-rz60InYAhWsLsAKHTqbDQUQgTYIpAQ

I’m not really sure what the link is here. This plug is used to ground yourself when working on sensitive electrical equipment so that you do not create Electro Static Discharge, say by rubbing your shoes ove the carpet too much and creating a spark between your finger and the device under repair/build.

[walpurgis]

it's just an earth.
I think this shows on which mast you have already pinned your flag to.

Let me guess what will happen. If you hear nothing you will declare that the whole concept of acoustically improved earthing through different topology and material is a nonsense.

I get the impression there is a desperate will for this thing to be wonderful and that some may not be happy until everybody concedes and gives it a round of applause! :clapclapclap:

[Primalsea]

I think what needs to be said is that there are very well established design philosophies regaring earthing schemes in hifi equipment that ensure performance and safety. This has come about after decades of understanding and implementation. This is just one of the fundamental truths of electronics. This cable will undo all of that.

This cable is just wrong and seems like it has been conceived on a lack of understanding.

[walpurgis]

it's just an earth.
I think this shows on which mast you have already pinned your flag to.

Are you suggesting the 'wire' is not an earth? If so, then what is it?

[RothwellAudio]

There seem to be two issues here which are being discussed in parallel:
1) whether or not connecting the 0V side of an RCA socket directly to mains earth is a beneficial (or even safe) thing to do, and
2) whether or not the device under discussion is fairly priced.

It's a fail on both issues as far as I'm concerned.

[bumpy]

I get the impression there is a desperate will for this thing to be wonderful and that some may not be happy until everybody concedes and gives it a round of applause! :clapclapclap:

Its called having an open mind. If a review or two show no improvement in SQ I will join you in mud throwing.

[walpurgis]

If a review or two show no improvement in SQ I will join you in mud throwing.

But who's reviews? Many sources of 'professional' reviews are regarded with suspicion. User reviews are useless, as users may well not have a clue what they are talking about, nor have a useful yardstick by which to make comparisons.

I doubt any reviewer with credence would take the cable on anyway.

[bumpy]

There seem to be two issues here which are being discussed in parallel:
1) whether or not connecting the 0V side of an RCA socket directly to mains earth is a beneficial (or even safe) thing to do, and
2) whether or not the device under discussion is fairly priced.

It's a fail on both issues as far as I'm concerned.

Create your own agenda why dont you. The main point being debated for Audiophiles is "does it make your system sound better.?"

[bumpy]

But who's reviews? Many sources of 'professional' reviews are regarded with suspicion. User reviews are useless, as users may well not have a clue what they are talking about, nor have a useful yardstick by which to make comparisons.

I doubt any reviewer with credence would take the cable on anyway.

So now if reviewer's opinions don't match with your prejudices then they are rubbish as well. You couldn't make it up.

[RothwellAudio]

Create your own agenda why dont you. The main point being debated for Audiophiles is "does it make your system sound better.?"

My own agenda? Surely "does it make your system sound better?" is covered by issue 1) "whether or not connecting the 0V side of an RCA socket directly to mains earth is a beneficial (or even safe) thing to do."

How does "my agenda" deviate from what's being discussed in the thread?

BTW, can I ask what qualifications or experience of electronics you have?

[walpurgis]

So now if reviewer's opinions don't match with your prejudices then they are rubbish as well. You couldn't make it up.

Do I catch a whiff of something here?

[walpurgis]

It lives! We shall see later, when I can be bothered.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2lkwvw7.jpg

Yes. I used an older plug so I could take the + and - pins out in case anybody was concerned. Only the earth can make any contact.

[bumpy]

BTW, can I ask what qualifications or experience of electronics you have?

None whatsoever. But since when did that qualify you to judge sound quality of Hi Fi.

[walpurgis]

None whatsoever. But since when did that qualify you to judge sound quality of Hi Fi.

:sofa:

[bumpy]

It lives! We shall see later, when I can be bothered.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2lkwvw7.jpg



Yep that looks a fair comparison. Go for it.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/29/6d/3a/296d3a25178132729b9ba11861cd3417.jpg

[RothwellAudio]

None whatsoever. But since when did that qualify you to judge sound quality of Hi Fi.
Electronics qualifications and/or experience doesn't qualify anyone to judge sound quality, but it can educate them enough to understand what creates an earth loop, what makes an earth loop create hum, how to shield circuits from RF interference or magnetic fields etc. Understanding is what allows people to make dependable predictions, like "will this create an earth loop?"

[walpurgis]

Yep that looks a fair comparison. Go for it.

It will do exactly the same job!!

[RothwellAudio]

It lives! We shall see later, when I can be bothered.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2lkwvw7.jpg

Yes. I used an older plug so I could take the + and - pins out in case anybody was concerned. Only the earth can make any contact.

I hope only the earth side of that RCA is soldered to the earth wire. Having the centre pin connected to earth as well may cause problems depending on whether you plug it into an input or an output.

The effects of this device will depend to some extent on how the rest of the system is wired. If it is fully floating, it won't do much. If one component already has 0V connected directly to earth you will create an earth loop. If the two components are plugged into different mains sockets you will create a bigger earth loop.
Well-done on actually soldering something up to do practical tests, but it would be wrong to draw general conclusions from an isolated example.

[walpurgis]

I hope only the earth side of that RCA is soldered to the earth wire. Having the centre pin connected to earth as well may cause problems depending on whether you plug it into an input or an output.

Yes. Only earth soldered on the phono plug. Although you've made me wonder what results might be on an amp that had shorting plugs fitted.

[bumpy]

It will do exactly the same job!!

Of course it will.

https://focusbarbados.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/head-in-sand.png

[bumpy]

Electronics qualifications and/or experience doesn't qualify anyone to judge sound quality, but it can educate them enough to understand what creates an earth loop, what makes an earth loop create hum, how to shield circuits from RF interference or magnetic fields etc. Understanding is what allows people to make dependable predictions, like "will this create an earth loop?"

Safety is a given in any component - caveat emptor, and any mug can hear an earth loop so we can dismiss that from the equation.

Why are you trying to confuse the real debate about whether this cable can improve sound quality?

[RothwellAudio]

Safety is a given in any component - caveat emptor, and any mug can hear an earth loop so we can dismiss that from the equation.

Why are you trying to confuse the real debate about whether this cable can improve sound quality?

Are you saying that this device can't create an earth loop? Or that if it it does, it doesn't invalidate it or its price tag?
I'm not trying to confuse the debate. As far as I'm aware I'm debating what everyone else is debating - with the possible exception of yourself.

BTW, in my experience it's not true that any mug can hear an earth loop. On many occasions people hear a hum and assume its an earth loop. Often it isn't.
And I've heard many systems that hum where the owner is either oblivious to it or assumes that it's a price worth paying for the superior sound quality. :scratch:

[bumpy]

Are you saying that this device can't create an earth loop? Or that if it it does, it doesn't invalidate it or its price tag?
BTW, I'm not trying to confuse the debate. As far as I'm aware I'm debating what everyone else is debating - with the possible exception of yourself.

Are you saying that this device can't create an earth loop? Or that if it it does, it doesn't invalidate it or its price tag?

I'm not saying anything, remember I'm not an electronics expert like you. What I am saying is, if you evaluate it in your system and it creates an earth loop then it goes back as unfit for purpose at whatever price it is. It's not rocket science to hear an earth loop within 1 second.

BTW, I'm not trying to confuse the debate. As far as I'm aware I'm debating what everyone else is debating - with the possible exception of yourself.

Well please lets have that debate with me about sound quality.

Lets hear your argument for saying it cant improve sound quality given the understanding that it needs to be electrically safe and not create earth loops.

[Stratmangler]

Carry on chaps!
I haven't laughed so much in years :rfl:

[walpurgis]

Carry on chaps!
I haven't laughed so much in years :rfl:

It's no laughing matter Chris! :lol:

[RothwellAudio]

Lets hear your argument for saying it cant improve sound quality given the understanding that it needs to be electrically safe and not create earth loops.
I haven't said that it can't improve sound quality. In fact, I said the opposite, as quoted below.


Making random connections between zero volts and mains earth may occasionally result in an improvement (if you're lucky) but is more likely to cause problems.

[bumpy]

I haven't said that it can't improve sound quality. In fact, I said the opposite, as quoted below.

Excellent, so you and I are on the same hymn sheet.

[Macca]

Safety is a given in any component - caveat emptor, and any mug can hear an earth loop so we can dismiss that from the equation.

Why are you trying to confuse the real debate about whether this cable can improve sound quality?

Yes the debate is confused when it is really quite simple:

1) The cable may or may not increase subjective sound quality, we can only tell by listening.

2) even if the cable does increase subjective sound quality we do not know how it does this since the manufacturer's explanation for how it works is nonsense and their claim that it 'dramatically reduces the noise floor' is not backed up by measurements.

3) So assuming it does increase subjective sound quality we can only guess as to how it does that. Possibly it does so by acting as an antenna for RFI in a similar way to the far more expensive Entreq grounding boxes. Like the Entreq it is a passive device so there is not much more it could do. The claim that it 'drains away' noise like you might drain puss from a wound is simply a blatant attempt to mug off the ignorant.

4) Given that we can make our own RFI antenna from stuff we have lying around why would we pay $200 for this one?

5) The makers know it does not work the way they claim it does so they are being dishonest. They are also making an enormous profit on each one sold. If they were to say 'We don't know why it works but it does' and charged $50 I would have no problem with it. It's the bullshit and the rip-of price that piss me off.

This is why 'just listening to it' is insufficient to make a rational judgement about any item of hi-fi and especially items like this.

[sumday]

Right....just to bring us all down to Earth.....I thank you....

If I were to spend 200 quid on this piece of crap, my wife would STAB me.

And considering its now quite close to Christmas...probably stamp on my (given the current weather) rapidly cooling corpse.

[bumpy]

This is why 'just listening to it' is insufficient to make a rational judgement about any item of hi-fi and especially items like this.

Well I'm obviously a mug for making purchases based on sound quality vs value for money. When Walpurgis proves to us both aurally and scientifically that his donkey device equals the thoroughbred race horse I am prepared to pay him £5 for it. His R&D costs have been minimal and his outlay on raw material positively miserly. I wont be ripped off.

[WESTLOWER]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[RothwellAudio]

When Walpurgis proves to us both aurally and scientifically that his donkey device equals the thoroughbred race horse...
Do you really think there's any difference between the donkey and the thoroughbred here?

[Stratmangler]

Is anyone going to make the statement that signal ground isn't the same as mains protective ground?
Damn, I just did .....

Andrew Rothwell has given very strong hints in this direction.

Connecting the signal ground to mains ground is not a wise thing to do.
You'll be fine 99.9999999% of the time, but if there's fault condition then there's potential (pun intended) for what could be catastrophic current flow.

[mikeyb]

Do you really think there's any difference between the donkey and the thoroughbred here?Of course there is, one of them is wearing a jacket [emoji23]

[Macca]

Well I'm obviously a mug for making purchases based on sound quality vs value for money..

No that is what a mug doesn't do. The essential point is that even if this cable subjectively improves sound quality it is not value for money at $200. At $50, maybe, assuming you couldn't make your own or get a pal to make one for you. There has been no R&D unless you count making one up and trying it, which I don't. And I'm surprised that anyone can even consider that the appearance of it, which is the only difference between Geoff's version and the 200 dollar one, would lead anyone to think that it will be more effective in its application. Like putting a £400 CD player in a fancy case and selling it for two grand. And yes, that's already been done.

[YNWaN]

There seem to be at least three different issues being discussed (dismissed) here, but as if they are all the same thing.

1/ The Gutwire cable is a ground link between chassis ground and signal ground. Most components already connect signal ground to chassis (mains) ground at some point so the need for another ground connection is questionable (at least in the UK) and likely to lead to earth loops.

2/ The Entreq solution is quite different to the Gutwire. In their case they provide a sort of pseudo ground plane in the form of boxes filled with minerals. This pseudo ground plane is connected to signal ground. In this case there isn't any actual extra connection between the signal ground and any actual mains ground.

3/ The Tannoy solution is different again. In their case they provide a ground link to the metal chassis of the drive unit. This chassis isn't actually connected to the signal at all so grounding it will not impact on the signal or mains ground. It's feasible that if the mains ground is not at zero potential then the chassis will also therefore take on the same potential as the mains ground to which it is connected - how this could be a good thing is a different matter though.

[Macca]

Depends also on what is meant by 'ground'.

All grounding products sell themselves on the idea that ground is like 'the ground' and that noise can be 'drained away' into 'the ground', where it dissipates in the vastness. That's just wrong. It isn't even an over-simplification. It's just wrong.

[Jazid]

I'm hoping Geoff's thoroughbred beating donkey actually does improve his system, just to keep this thread alive. It's a laff in here :lol:

...and it's the season of miracles :christmas:

[Macca]

I hope so too. Very cheap upgrade.:eyebrows:

[walpurgis]

I've given the made up earth wire a try.

It makes no audible difference here at all, either with volume turned right up or right down with no signal entering the pre-amp. No difference when listening to music either.

I tried it on spare inputs on a TVC and on a spare output. I also tried an active pre-amp. Same result in both cases. Background noise was minimal with volume well up in both cases when no signal was introduced, either with or without the 'wire'.

I fail to see how the 'Gutwire' could do things differently, no matter how its elusive 'properties' are described.

Can anybody intelligently and plausibly describe how an expensive bespoke wire that carries no signal or power (or at least shouldn't) can improve on a plain wire?

[jostber]

Walker Audio has their Eliminators with some of the same functionality:

http://walkeraudio.com/shop/eliminator-directional-antennae/

[Light Dependant Resistor]

I've given the made up earth wire a try.

It makes no audible difference here at all, either with volume turned right up or right down with no signal entering the pre-amp. No difference when listening to music either.

I tried it on spare inputs on a TVC and on a spare output. I also tried an active pre-amp. Same result in both cases. Background noise was minimal with volume well up in both cases when no signal was introduced, either with or without the 'wire'.

I fail to see how the 'Gutwire' could do things differently, no matter how its elusive 'properties' are described.

Can anybody intelligently and plausibly describe how an expensive bespoke wire that carries no signal or power (or at least shouldn't) can improve on a plain wire?

If earth wiring, (and equally positive wiring if you go to the trouble ) is arranged in a star arrangement it then carries much less propensity for ground loops and anomalies to occur. Shown here , You can see looking at the diagrams the difference that such wiring might make:
http://lh-electric.net/tutorials/gnd_loop.html

Where more difficult problems exist, isolation techniques such as optical or transformer based isolation can assist. However there are always small trade offs requiring additional consideration. For instance an inexpensive but effective isolation method in low voltage systems, is to use back to back diodes, from say a noisy ground plane environment to a star earth. The current carrying capability must be suitably rated, and forward voltage drop of such devices has to be low in order to allow sufficient needed conduction. Either schottky or other ultra fast types are typically used.

Rod Elliot's article provides summary and solution of most encountered earthing problems: http://sound.whsites.net/earthing.htm

[bumpy]

The essential point is that even if this cable subjectively improves sound quality it is not value for money at $200.

IF the cable brought about a greater level of improvement in SQ than spending $200 on any other component, then in my book its good value.

[bumpy]

So a donkey didn't win the Derby, so no great surprise there. Could there be inherent value in buying the thoroughbred? I have no idea, but hold an open mind.

Can anybody intelligently and plausibly describe how an expensive bespoke wire that carries no signal or power (or at least shouldn't) can improve on a plain wire

Well I cant but there are lots of things in Hi-Fi that work for some people for no good reason.

[YNWaN]

The Walker Audio idea is a weird one - quite literally an aerial. Oddly enough this is the same idea as that used by Chord Cables in their Tuned ARAY interconnects.

[Macca]

So a donkey didn't win the Derby, so no great surprise there. Could there be inherent value in buying the thoroughbred? I have no idea, but hold an open mind.

Can anybody intelligently and plausibly describe how an expensive bespoke wire that carries no signal or power (or at least shouldn't) can improve on a plain wire

Well I cant but there are lots of things in Hi-Fi that work for some people for no good reason.

if there is no reason for something to work then it won't work. Of course it could work and we don't know the reason but logic dictates that there must be a reason. As I said before if this item does have an effect it isn't going to be for the reason the manufacturer states. That's pretty much the case for all of these 'We've discovered a cause and effect that science has overlooked' products. At best they just introduce some benign distortion, subjectively pleasing, and then say it is their wonder discovery from years R&D and trial and error, and charge a fortune for something that costs them just a few quid to knock out.

[bumpy]

if there is no reason for something to work then it won't work. Of course it could work and we don't know the reason but logic dictates that there must be a reason. As I said before if this item does have an effect it isn't going to be for the reason the manufacturer states. That's pretty much the case for all of these 'We've discovered a cause and effect that science has overlooked' products. At best they just introduce some benign distortion, subjectively pleasing, and then say it is their wonder discovery from years R&D and trial and error, and charge a fortune for something that costs them just a few quid to knock out.

if there is no reason for something to work then it won't work.

Nobody would argue with that.

As I said before if this item does have an effect it isn't going to be for the reason the manufacturer states.

That's probably true too, but in this day and age how much advertising is actually 100% true?


At best they just introduce some benign distortion, subjectively pleasing

This is where your argument falls apart as you personally have now decided on why it might have an effect. Where is your evidence. In my eyes that's not a lot different to any spurious claims made by the manufacturer. Pot calling the kettle black.


charge a fortune for something that costs them just a few quid to knock out.

I thought we had already proven that the few quid one doesn't work (donkey Derby)

[Pharos]

Absolutely right Martin and Chris.

But, in the case of advertising it is virtually all untrue because it relies on innuendo, and association and transference, essentially the use of dishonest psychological techniques to cajole people into behaviour, and then they get competitive about who has the 'best one'.

This is the predatory nature of capitalism now, and I regard TV ads as an index of the fantasy world belonging to the populous, (the sellers would not spend all that money if it did not work), and the lack of self possession of the populous.

[bumpy]

Absolutely right Martin and Chris.

But, in the case of advertising it is virtually all untrue because it relies on innuendo, and association and transference, essentially the use of dishonest psychological techniques to cajole people into behaviour, and then they get competitive about who has the 'best one'.

This is the predatory nature of capitalism now, and I regard TV ads as an index of the fantasy world belonging to the populous, (the sellers would not spend all that money if it did not work), and the lack of self possession of the populous.

Any normal person takes advertising claims with a pinch of salt :) Unless of course you're sitting on a very high horse.

[Macca]

At best they just introduce some benign distortion, subjectively pleasing

This is where your argument falls apart as you personally have now decided on why it might have an effect. Where is your evidence. In my eyes that's not a lot different to any spurious claims made by the manufacturer. Pot calling the kettle black.


charge a fortune for something that costs them just a few quid to knock out.

I thought we had already proven that the few quid one doesn't work (donkey Derby)

As regards proof it is clear in my post that I was talking in general terms about 'miracle' products and not specifically this one. Many have been independently tested (e.g Entreq) and it has been found that they all they do is add distortion or pick up RFI, which amounts to the same thing. Consequently any claims for improved SQ can only be due to distortion or imagination. Since I do not place much faith in the 'You are imagining it' argument the most likely explanation for a positive subjective result is a benign degradation in the SQ.

As regards the cheap copy, what is it about the $200 dollar version that makes it more likely to be successful in its intended role? And how much do you think it costs them to make one? If Geoff was to tart his version up a bit and put a sticker price of £100 on it would you then offer it more credibility? What if he charged £1000? A cable that retails at £1000 and looks really good has to be better than the equivalent device knocked up at home from bits lying about, doesn't it?

Sadly the answer is no. The retail price and cosmetic appearance do not have an automatic relationship to the efficacy of any device. As Dennis points out we are 'conditioned' to believe otherwise. But rejecting this conditioning is not especially difficult.

[bumpy]

As regards the cheap copy, what is it about the $200 dollar version that makes it more likely to be successful in its intended role? And how much do you think it costs them to make one? If Geoff was to tart his version up a bit and put a sticker price of £100 on it would you then offer it more credibility? What if he charged £1000? A cable that retails at £1000 and looks really good has to be better than the equivalent device knocked up at home from bits lying about, doesn't it?

Sadly the answer is no. The retail price and cosmetic appearance do not have an automatic relationship to the efficacy of any device. As Dennis points out we are 'conditioned' to believe otherwise. But rejecting this conditioning is not especially difficult.

If your argument was true then a cheap Chinese copy of any component would sound the same as an audiophile product and we could all go home.

[Macca]

If your argument was true then a cheap Chinese copy of any component would sound the same as an audiophile product and we could all go home.

In the case of a product like this the cheap Chinese copy would perform identically. I think that's the point you are missing. There is no additional 'magic' in the $200 version, whatever the vendor might like you to think.

In fact that really is the nexus of the problem. How do you sell the same thing over and over again in a saturated market where the technology matured long ago? You invent some sort of secret sauce , some magic, some hidden genius that your product has and that no-one else's does.

Don't sell it too cheap though, or no-one will believe it's special!

[struth]

Post deleted...dont call members idiots Chris

[sq225917]

It 'could' make a difference with badly designed or faulty kit, buy usually it could only make things worse. Speaking purely from a measured signal to noise POV.

Whether one actually prefers poorer signal to noise is another issue.

[disarmamant]

I've given the made up earth wire a try.

It makes no audible difference here at all, either with volume turned right up or right down with no signal entering the pre-amp. No difference when listening to music either.

I tried it on spare inputs on a TVC and on a spare output. I also tried an active pre-amp. Same result in both cases. Background noise was minimal with volume well up in both cases when no signal was introduced, either with or without the 'wire'.

I fail to see how the 'Gutwire' could do things differently.

Ah, but you left out the Bincho-Tan, which is a form of Ubame oak charcoal from Japan which absorbs EMI and RF as well as emitting negative ions. This results in a drastic overall reduction in noise and a huge improvement in soundstaging, imaging


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[walpurgis]

Ah, but you left out the Bincho-Tan, which is a form of Ubame oak charcoal from Japan which absorbs EMI and RF as well as emitting negative ions. This results in a drastic overall reduction in noise and a huge improvement in soundstaging, imaging

I have no way of telling if you are serious or joking.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I lost the will to read on after several posts!

[disarmamant]

I have no way of telling if you are serious or joking.

‘Twas tongue in cheek


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[walpurgis]

Ah. :)