Oil change advice

[wee tee cee]

I run a lenco gl75 that had been sounding fantastic....but with a change of bearing-pure pish!

Initially Brian and me degreased it and put some lithium grease in it-still awfull....john martyn sounding even more pished and drugged than usual.

I suspected too much stiction and the bearing not having loosened up.

We then tried motorex 5w/30w fully synthetic- bingo the big man has sobered up and sounding good.

I tend to keep my listening room/house rather cool.

Another play last night and big JM is pished again.

Ambient tempreture and viscotity are the devils work here...

Whats you thought on going gt85/wd 40 till things loosen up?

Ceramic bearing source is in the middle east........ a tad warmer than my gaff!!!

[Firebottle]

I'd put the old bearing back in if it had been sounding fantastic.

Just my 2p :D

[Audio Al]

3 in 1 or sowing machine oil

[wee tee cee]

Thanks gents-new super duper bearing maybe aint so great after all....

[CageyH]

I would not us WD40. It is hygroscopic.

[Gazjam]

Tony,
I'd strongly recommend Audio Origami bearing oil.
Use it in my turntable, wouldn't use anything else.

To give you an idea how good it is compared even to the oil Michell supply (who know a thing or two about turntables) I changed it out for the Audio Origami stuff to compare.

Doing the platter "spin test", with the AO oil the platter spun about twice as long.
Less friction = better.

Go with this mate, it just works.

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[Ammonite Audio]

Isn't the Lenco motor a shaded pole induction design, in a similar vein to those used in old Garrards and my TD-124? If that's correct (and I may be wrong), a touch of constant linear drag actually helps speed stability which is why a 301/401/TD-124 sounds better with a touch of magnetic eddy braking, and indeed musically 'wrong' without. Eddy braking does not exist with a Lenco, but thicker oil/grease would do the same thing, and the motor has plenty of torque to cope with the drag.

It does sound like the new bearing in this instance is not quite the upgrade that Tony was expecting!

[walpurgis]

It's normal to grease Lenco motor bearings, a drop of oil should be applied to the tip of the nose screw at the end of the motor shaft. The standard platter main bearing is very good and should be oiled, not greased.

[YNWaN]

Tony,
I'd strongly recommend Audio Origami bearing oil.
Use it in my turntable, wouldn't use anything else.

To give you an idea how good it is compared even to the oil Michell supply (who know a thing or two about turntables) I changed it out for the Audio Origami stuff to compare.

Doing the platter "spin test", with the AO oil the platter spun about twice as long.
Less friction = better.

Go with this mate, it just works.

Equating the time the platter takes to come to a halt with friction is not really accurate. Friction could be the cause but drag imparted by shear forces within the oil are far more likely. Essentially, a thin oil will allow the platter to spin for longer but a thicker oil will make the bearing more rigid - in both cases the friction is not altered. In my own magnetic bearing there is no direct contact between the bearing parts and friction is close to zero. However, because the oil is very thick the bearing does not spin for long. If a turntable were a bicycle then 'spin down speed' would be relevant but a turntable only has to go at one consistent speed and a very slow one at that. In addition, friction levels are very low compared to relative motor power and is easily overcome. Indeed, I would counter, there are clear advantages in causing the motor to see increased load rather than decreasing it.

---------

I would strongly recommend that a ceramic ball bearing is not used in a standard bearing as it will be significantly harder than any tool steel main shaft or thrust pad and will cause increased wear in these components.

[walpurgis]

Yes. I agree with all that Mark.

[YNWaN]

I'm not picking on Gazjam in particular, it's more that his post happens to summarise a commonly held misunderstanding regarding the time it takes for a platter to lose speed and friction and advantages/disadvantages.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I run a lenco gl75 that had been sounding fantastic....but with a change of bearing-pure pish!



Who's bearing did you use? I've got the Jolyon bearing in mine which is superb, or did you go for the Malaysian offering?

[karma67]

Equating the time the platter takes to come to a halt with friction is not really accurate. Friction could be the cause but drag imparted by shear forces within the oil are far more likely. Essentially, a thin oil will allow the platter to spin for longer but a thicker oil will make the bearing more rigid - in both cases the friction is not altered. In my own magnetic bearing there is no direct contact between the bearing parts and friction is close to zero. However, because the oil is very thick the bearing does not spin for long. If a turntable were a bicycle then 'spin down speed' would be relevant but a turntable only has to go at one consistent speed and a very slow one at that. In addition, friction levels are very low compared to relative motor power and is easily overcome. Indeed, I would counter, there are clear advantages in causing the motor to see increased load rather than decreasing it.

---------

I would strongly recommend that a ceramic ball bearing is not used in a standard bearing as it will be significantly harder than any tool steel main shaft or thrust pad and will cause increased wear in these components.

Have you tried silicone oil I wonder and if so what were your findings?
I have some thick 30,000 cs I may try on top of my rock2 which has an inverted bearing

[brian2957]

It's the Malaysian bearing Andy . I'm away at the moment and will talk to Tony when I get back Saturday .

[wee tee cee]

pulled the bearing out cleaned it up with brake cleaner and applied gt85.

The stiction was noticeably reduced in my hand-once installed the platter spun far more freely.

John Martyn now sounded a bit like choir boy, had to have a play around with speed settings, but got there.

Will wait for an adult to come over and assist with set up.

Thanks everyone-bit a learning curve for me!

[brian2957]

This bearing is meant to run with a specific grease mate . I will order some and relube the bearing with that .

[wee tee cee]

Brian,
Hang fire. I think I may have mullered the poor beast with all my fiddling.

Its playing music but something is definitely not right!!!

You get lazy with digital....Im now having to work for my tunes...

[YNWaN]

I strongly advise you try a more viscous oil.

[YNWaN]

Have you tried silicone oil I wonder and if so what were your findings?
I have some thick 30,000 cs I may try on top of my rock2 which has an inverted bearing

Yes, that is what I use, so not an oil in the traditional sense. However, the vertical load on my bearing is entirely magnetically supported. One of the problems with inverted bearings is that gravity has a tendency to cause them to run dry.

[wee tee cee]

Gents,
The Gt85 is an interim measure-but has worked.

I did a bit of googling and reset my arm to roughly what others were showing in pictures

I am a complete novice, regards vinyl having taken a 30 year break and only just returned.

I googled my cart its a AT 110 MM.

I had it plumbed into my MC setting on the amp!!!!


Quick change over-----vast improvement.

My right channel aint quite right....quieter than the left can anyone assist with arm settings?

I will also relocate the tt as its sitting behind one of the 57s getting music fired at it.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Right, he goes.

oil goes in at the top and along the shaft of the bearing. Grease goes on the base. I don't have the Malaysian installed on my Lenco but I do have one on my Garrard 301. The 301 version has a screw base. You may want to experiment with the tightness of the base screw. I don't think you've buggered your bearing. It would have to be something catastrophic. Incidently I had the same issues as yourself when I first got mine on the 301. Now it signs like a canary.

[wee tee cee]

Baby steps Andrew....im just finding my feet.

Thanks everyone for chipping in-greatly appreciated.

Tony.

[wee tee cee]

A bit of fiddling about and re positioning.....sounding pretty respectable just now

Not a million miles away from my digital....happy days!!

[Wakefield Turntables]

A bit of fiddling about and re positioning.....sounding pretty respectable just now

Not a million miles away from my digital....happy days!!

it should sound a lot better than digital :eek:

[wee tee cee]

Im working on it!!!

[brian2957]

Be good to learn a bit about this turntable mate .
It was sounding pretty good when I left your house . The cartridge fitted then was a Nagaoka MP110 .

[wee tee cee]

I have re shuffled the positioning....its sounding pretty good.

Only problem is some rice krispies in the right channel.

played with grounding wires to amp/cables phono v power/and a few wee tweaks with the arm.

might have to wait for an adult to attend!!!

Hope your trip went well!!!

[brian2957]

Still in Budapest until Friday mate .
Have you changed the cartridge ?
Internet a bit intermittant here BTW .

[wee tee cee]

nope just trying to work with what i have.

Needs a bit of work, but not a million miles away-getting there mate!

[brian2957]

The MP110 is a decent cartridge soI would say keep that on . Just wondering wherr the crackling is coming from .

[wee tee cee]

Crackling seems to lessen when i touch the arm-even the carbon fibre tube!

Anybody got any suggestions?

[brian2957]

Have you connected the earth wire to the amp mate.
Also try changing the interconnects .

[karma67]

my rock 2 has an inverted bearing,after a post from mark i tried some 30.cs silicone fluid/oil.
to my ears it seemed to reduce the noise floor,i heard a noticeable difference,tonight i tried 12,500 cs and that's better still.
so whats going on? i can only assume the heavy viscous fluid is damping out micro vibrations?
my only slight concern is its lubrication properties compared to oil.

[wee tee cee]

Gary came over yesterday and set the arm up for me- my settings were way off.

He reckons the crackling is one of the phono plugs added to the rear playing up.

Will hang fire till Brian-the Lenco doctor can do a house visit!

[brian2957]

Ok mate I will be over when I return from my break . I'll give you a bell and arrange something .

[wee tee cee]

Brian,
You know what im like....opened up the back and one of the phono plug wires came away from the socket.

Crimped it tt was sounding great....

Changed record-silence!!

Much fiddling about ensued -jiggle the phono leads at the rear and one channel returns for a bit then fades.

Might have to desolder the phono plugs and give my soldering skills a go!!!!

[brian2957]

You're a manto mate (-:

Let me know how you get on .

[wee tee cee]

montometer running in the red......

Step away from the tt sir!!!!



Will wait for help.

[brian2957]

I'll be over soon mate .

[wee tee cee]

Thanks mate....hope the trip went well and your return runs smoothly.

[YNWaN]

my rock 2 has an inverted bearing,after a post from mark i tried some 30.cs silicone fluid/oil.
to my ears it seemed to reduce the noise floor,i heard a noticeable difference,tonight i tried 12,500 cs and that's better still.
so whats going on? i can only assume the heavy viscous fluid is damping out micro vibrations?
my only slight concern is its lubrication properties compared to oil.

One thing you will have to do is check the speed of the platter as more viscous oils/compounds do slow them. As long as you can adjust platter speed then this is not a problem.

[karma67]

ive not noticed any speed difference yet,well at least to my ears anyway.
i must check it with a phone app

[YNWaN]

Well I don’t know how accurate your phone app is but I have a very accurate strobe and the effect of adjusting oil viscosity is easily measurable. Irrespective of how important (or otherwise) one feels measurements are, in this case, speed changes will affect pitch.

[sq225917]

i used to run thick silicon oil when my deck had a stiff Ac controller on it. With my DC supply the logic that controls the speed correction gets upset if you go too thick. Going from 5k to 10k was enough to cause the speed to drop maybe 1-2 segments per rev of a 150 segment strobe disc, audible? Maybe just.

[YNWaN]

Yes, perhaps I should add that I run very thick silicone oil.

[karma67]

perhaps a better application for me would be silicone oil for the top and sides of the spindle and oil for the bronze bush and well? remember its inverted.

[Lerxst]

There is some stuff Shell make called WOM (White Oil Medical). Don't worry about finding it - buy Johnson's baby oil. It is that mineral oil with perfume. It is low viscosity and will not be affected by any normal variations in room temperature. You can get simple low viscosity technical white oils (WOT) without perfume on Amazon for pennies.If you want a viscosity figure go for "Tech 30" or simply "30".

The Medical grade is for contact with people. WOM or WOT, it is the same stuff for your purposes.

The reason I would say this is better is because it is low viscosity, pure unadulterated oil. It will not clog up due to additions to the product (although dust etc will clog anything up). And it is dirt cheap.

Use very little!

[paulf-2007]

Isn't the Lenco motor a shaded pole induction design, in a similar vein to those used in old Garrards and my TD-124? If that's correct (and I may be wrong), a touch of constant linear drag actually helps speed stability which is why a 301/401/TD-124 sounds better with a touch of magnetic eddy braking, and indeed musically 'wrong' without. Eddy braking does not exist with a Lenco, but thicker oil/grease would do the same thing, and the motor has plenty of torque to cope with the drag.

It does sound like the new bearing in this instance is not quite the upgrade that Tony was expecting!
I agree, some friction is good all this talk of how long a platter spins is rubbish. My experience of lencos is they need to run for an hour before the speed is consistent. Any multigrade engine oil is ok. Of course you can waste money on snake oil.

[Qwin]

I agree, some friction is good all this talk of how long a platter spins is rubbish. My experience of lencos is they need to run for an hour before the speed is consistent. Any multigrade engine oil is ok. Of course you can waste money on snake oil.

Also tend to agree with this. Thin oil will run on longer when the power is removed, but is this attribute serving any beneficial purpose?
The quite considerable force on the tip of the thrust bearing requires an oil capable of preventing wear, which is more relevant.
I now prefer more viscus oils which give the motor something to push against and tends to damp out rapid speed fluctuations.
My current bearing (Pro-Ject RPM 9) in my Technics hybrid deck is running on Castrol LM grease and is as steady as a rock.

A lot will depend on what the bearing was designed to run on in this particular application, stick to the original or similar, but don't waste money on exotic stuff.

I saw a couple of GL75 decks as part of job lots in an auction last week, don't know what they brought as I had to leave before they came up.

[paulf-2007]

I had a collaro 2010 that sounded like a road roller until I put a heavy engine oil in then it was silent. How long the platter kept spinning was of no interest

[wee tee cee]

I ride a motorbike all year round.

In the winter like today -3c the forks feel harsh and too stiff ....it gets worse the longer i ride.

Its the viscosity of the oil in the forks changing due to temperature.

In the summer (if we get one up here) I have to add a few clicks of rebound and compression damping to compensate.

Stiction is the problem.

gt85 is an interim measure, I will start experimenting when i get the phono sockets fixed.

Thanks to everyone for the help and guidance-this whole vinyl adventure is a tad immersive.

[wee tee cee]

ITS ALIVE!!!!

my son was full of dread when i asked for his help eyesight wise....soldering/torches/swearing/magnifying glass.

much wailing and knashing of teeth ensued but got there!!

Stevie, Jesus child of america-i may well get into this vinyl gig!

Small steps Ellie, Small steps......

[brian2957]

Hah ! Sorry I couldn't make it over sooner mate . Christmas and work has kept me busy . I'm pleased you got the turntable back up and running mate and it's hitting the spot :)

[wee tee cee]

Got some vinyl for chrimbo-matt and lou suitably impressed

All good...

.][/QUOTE]