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View Full Version : Hashimoto HM-3 v Phonomac Denon HA-500 + More!!!



Bigman80
28-11-2017, 21:49
First up, big thanks to Angus for making the trip to my abode and bringing his equipment for this battle of epic proportions!!!

Firstly, we fitted a rather lovely cartridge. An Ortofon Vienna. We had a listen to the Jolida as is sat and tuned our ears to the presentation. Then, we installed the Denon HA-500. I should mention that this is a recapped, re- everything, upgraded Transformers etc HA-500, and should be noted as not being standard. This is valued as a £300 unit.

Instantly, it was very apparent that the Denon was having an effect on the sound. It created a cleaner sound. almost like it was cleaning the signal prior to it getting to the speakers. There was a wonderfully crisp, sharp and overall transparent quality. The soundstage was no bigger than previously, that i could tell, but there seemed to be a bit more depth. The bass tightened and the highs were sparkling. the midrange had more detail and better timbre. I really liked what it did or didnt do i should say, which is impose a tonal change on the replay.

There was some mains noise being picked up and a tiny increment of hum but that dissipated when i moved the HA away from the phono stage. I also heard a modicum of hiss at the start of the record which i assume was coming from the HA.

Next the Hashimoto HM-3 SUT (£500+)

Well, as i suspected & expected, the HM-3 were very very good. No background hiss at all. They really excelled in the midrange but i felt the bass wasn't as tight as when the Denon was in. Later, replay showed the bass to be better controlled than when the TT was directly connected to the Jolida. The best way to describe the effect of the HM-3 is "fluidity" there is a very nice liquid like presentation from the SUT and its very easy to find yourself immersed into the track. This was a highlight which was't quite as apparent with the Denon HA. Tonally, there wasn't the scale the Denon HA provided or the clarity. Everything sounded a little softer but i can see how that will appeal to some listeners. Overall, the sound was very involving and an altogether more "easy" listen.

The SUT exhibited lots of hum and was very susceptible to positioning and earthing, unfortunatley, we were unable to rid the unit of the hum (due to cable length) . I have heard this unit free of hum.

Conclusion:

It all omes down to personal taste. There IS something very likeable with the HM-3 sound, Its "romantic" but if, like me, you listen to Metalica and various other bands which demand pace and precision, it may not work in your favour. We played a Kenny Ball LP through the HM-3 and it was smooth, rich and very very easy to listen to. We played the same LP through the Denon HA-5oo and i nearly lost an ear!!!!

So ....... buy with your musical preferences in mind. There was no outright winner here. other than that, the use of a SUT or HA did massivley improve the phono stage when using a SUT or HA rather than Direct MC input.

It is now my opinion that using a SUT or HA into a MM phonostage IS the best method. It certainly was in my system today.

Audio Technica AT-ART7 mc Cartridge,

Angus had been teasing me with the news of a new purchase for the last few weeks while i had been waiting for his visit to my house.... no news other than a "new cartridge that makes me happy to sell the Ortofon Vienna" After previously hearing how stunning the Vienna was, i was left intrigued!

FFW to today and a very beautiful AT ART7 was installed onto the SP10 and PMAT1010 tonearm.

A few seconds into the test track of the day, "Dire straits – Private investigations", i knew this little cart was very special indeed. The best way to describe it is to forget everything AT is synonymous with. Neutral, toppy, polite, blah, blah, blah

This cartridge is ballsy, dynamic, punchy and downright addictive!!! It delivered the drumstrike with such exhuberance that the very fine hairs on my bald head moved. I am serious!!! It was breathtakingly dynamic. Detail wasnt quite at the level the Ortofon reached and the soundstage was slightly smaller but goddam, this cartridge came very very close. It was also slightly, very slightly, maybe 0.1mm on the warm side of neutral but it was all the better for it!!!! the nylon guitar sounded snappy and full of that twang and snappy tone i look for and it just kept the pace and timing perfectly. It never got muddled or messy either. Well devoloped bass lines were easy to follow and the top end was well extended. A really well balanced performance.

I really liked this cartridge and at £999 for a brand new one (The Ortofon Vienna was £2000+) it is a serious contender. Try one if you can. It was almost Wicked in its delivery. Awesome!

It was a very busy day with all the component swapping but thoroughly enjoyable. Pictures to follow.

Wakefield Turntables
28-11-2017, 22:03
I didn't realise that you were into metal. A man after my own heart.I think if your into pace and precision you need might need something like the Cadenza black, and maybe try some active speakers. It looks like your exploring all areas of your system which is both exciting and bloody costly. I'd also recommend having a listen to a paradise phonostage if you can find one. This makes for a very very fast, clinical, and precise system.

Bigman80
28-11-2017, 22:14
I didn't realise that you were into metal. A man after my own heart.I think if your into pace and precision you need might need something like the Cadenza black, and maybe try some active speakers. It looks like your exploring all areas of your system which is both exciting and bloody costly. I'd also recommend having a listen to a paradise phonostage if you can find one. This makes for a very very fast, clinical, and precise system.Hi Andrew,

I'm In to all sorts!!! I do love metal though. My copy of SOAD - Toxicity, is a treasure.

The paradise is out of reach currently and I can't see that changing anytime soon! I think SJS has one he'll sell but not in my budget [emoji50]

I currently have a very good sound and this is more curiosity than anything else but I may be buying a HA-500 very soon. I really liked that massive bandwidth and punchy sound.






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Ali Tait
28-11-2017, 22:30
The HA 1000 is a fair bit better IMO, I’ve had both, still have the 1000.

Bigman80
28-11-2017, 22:31
The HA 1000 is a fair bit better IMO, I’ve had both, still have the 1000.Are you using it? [emoji16]

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Ali Tait
28-11-2017, 22:36
Using a Tribute SUT at the moment. I swapped out most of the components in it as there were some leakng caps in it. Thread on here somewhere.

Bigman80
28-11-2017, 22:39
Using a Tribute SUT at the moment. I swapped out most of the components in it as there were some leakng caps in it. Thread on here somewhere.I have read it. You were very thorough.

Whats the main difference between the two other than the obvious relocation of the PSU

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Ali Tait
28-11-2017, 22:44
Different circuit and better shielding etc as I recall. I thought the new components made a real improvement. Not surprising given the age and leaking caps I guess.

Bigman80
28-11-2017, 22:51
Different circuit and better shielding etc as I recall. I thought the new components made a real improvement. Not surprising given the age and leaking caps I guess.Food for thought. Few on eBay at a reasonable price.

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Ali Tait
28-11-2017, 22:57
Yes worth a punt I’d say.

Bigman80
28-11-2017, 22:58
I'll keep my eye open for a EU voltage one. Just makes life easier[emoji4]

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Ali Tait
28-11-2017, 23:02
Aye, but Airlink sell nice step down transformers. I use one with mine.

Bigman80
28-11-2017, 23:04
Aye, but Airlink sell nice step down transformers. I use one with mine.Hmmm, I'll give that some thought. More cost!!!!! [emoji857]

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Ali Tait
28-11-2017, 23:08
LOL aye.

Marco
28-11-2017, 23:16
Interesting stuff and good write-up, Oliver! If you remember, I described the essential sound of SUTs and head amps on another thread, which now mirrors your own experience with them :)

And I've yet to hear any standalone MC phono stage not outperformed by a quality valve MM stage and head amp (or SUT) - or the MC input of a MM/MC phono stage not proved as inferior to the MM input, used in conjunction with a quality head amp (or SUT).

For whatever reason, it always just seems to sound better! Looking forward to seeing the pics :cool:

Marco.

Marco
28-11-2017, 23:38
This is one of the finest phono stages I've ever heard: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0114/allnic_h_1201.htm

You'll see that it has built-in adjustable SUTs, optimally positioned exactly where they're needed, in order to keep the signal path as short as possible, and of course interconnect cables are no longer necessary, which is the main thing that hampers the sound of SUTs, as the added capacitance markedly alters their sound.

That's one of the things that can make SUTs sound 'soft' and lacking in dynamics, compared with good head amps, and why if you're going to use an SUT, the shortest possible interconnects should be use to hook it up, which will also minimise hum, as there's less cable present to act as an aerial.

However, hardwired into the circuit as Allnic have done, the restriction imposed by interconnects is eliminated, and the sound transformed for the better! Used like that, SUTs can rival what head amps do best, in terms of 'balls' and dynamics, whilst still possessing that beguiling, 'liquid-like' midrange and timbral subtlety, synonymous with quality SUTs.

As ever in hi-fi, it's all a question of implementation ;)

Marco.

Bigman80
28-11-2017, 23:42
That looks rather stunning! Allnic make a few phonostages. Hmmm

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Marco
28-11-2017, 23:54
That looks rather stunning!

Trust me, it is! A friend of mine has one, and it pretty much redefines what's possible from a phono stage, and subsequently vinyl replay ;)

Marco.

Bigman80
28-11-2017, 23:56
Trust me, it is! A friend of mine has one, and it pretty much redefines what's possible from a phono stage, and subsequently vinyl replay ;)

Marco.Couple for sale at £2k. I don't suppose that's bad in terms of redefining the possibilities of vinyl Replay!

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Marco
28-11-2017, 23:58
The bigger ones do that, but even their 'entry level' stuff gives a flavour of that magic. Sorry to throw another 'spanner in the works', as it were! Choices, choices... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Bigman80
29-11-2017, 00:17
It's Ok! I'm happy with the Jolida, it performs excellently, the only real choice I have to make is whether I want to add more boxes into the mix. I probably do to be honest lol. It was a significant step up in performance. I also have the MM valve stage that's nearly finished which will need a step up HA or SUT. It would suit multiple purposes to get a HA or SUT.

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Jimbo
29-11-2017, 06:57
I use a headamp and SUT occasionally and your experiences Oli are similar to my own. I have a friend who has tried many many SUTs as they are all quite different and every cartridge gets on better with a particular SUT combination. If you find the magic combination of complimentary SUT and cartridge you will be in vinyl heaven as they do have a natural liquid sound with great timbre but you will always be a few seats back in the audience.

Headamps bring you a few seats forward in the presentation and well designed ones can sound stunning, I Testify to hearing Marco's which is superb but not cheap. I have heard a number of headamps including the Denon you have and they can immediately impress especially with the right cartridge but on longer listening can be tiring compared to a great SUT / cartridge.

The main issue I have found and speaking to others who have huge experience in this area is that headamps and SUTs running through a MM phono stage are better than just a MC phono stage but getting the right combination of cartridge and SUT/Headamp can be tricky.

May I suggest you try and get to hear Marco's Croft / Headamp and Denon DLS1. This is the best implementation of a MC cartridge and amplification I have heard to date and ticks all the boxes for me.:)

Bigman80
29-11-2017, 08:09
Hi Jim,

Yes, that's my worry. That over an extended period the HA-500 MAY become fatiguing due to it being so clean sounding.

I'd love to hear Marcos combination but in the context of his system it would be unlikely I'll replicate it. There was a definite cohesion with the Vienna and HM-3 yesterday. So much so that I have considered looking for one.

I think I'm going to hang fire a bit and see where mind is at in a couple of weeks.

I've literally only just strapped the Goldring Eroica to the TT and while the ART-7 & Vienna showed it a clean pair of heels, I'm still very much getting used to it and enjoying it.

I have a little hankering to try a shelter cartridge. Is there any point getting a SUT/HA Before a long term cartridge?



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Jimbo
29-11-2017, 10:28
Hi Jim,

Yes, that's my worry. That over an extended period the HA-500 MAY become fatiguing due to it being so clean sounding.

I'd love to hear Marcos combination but in the context of his system it would be unlikely I'll replicate it. There was a definite cohesion with the Vienna and HM-3 yesterday. So much so that I have considered looking for one.

I think I'm going to hang fire a bit and see where mind is at in a couple of weeks.

I've literally only just strapped the Goldring Eroica to the TT and while the ART-7 & Vienna showed it a clean pair of heels, I'm still very much getting used to it and enjoying it.

I have a little hankering to try a shelter cartridge. Is there any point getting a SUT/HA Before a long term cartridge?



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I think i would research which SUT/HA folk have had the best synergy with any given cartridge. Shelter cartridges are thought of very highly by those who have them so maybe worth a try. The Goldring Eroica is certainly a classic but never heard one myself so will be interested in how it goes with you Oli?

I heard Marco,s Croft / head amp / DL S1 in another system - not his own! In fact I heard it I think with Nick Gorhams phono and the paradise phono stage at a NEBo some years ago if I remember correctly. Honestly this is the only time I have ever really enjoyed a MC cartridge with truly WOW factor. Simply stunning. Speakers were Ruark crusadar 3. Marco correct me if I am wrong?

julesd68
29-11-2017, 12:39
Angus had been teasing me with the news of a new purchase for the last few weeks while i had been waiting for his visit to my house.... no news other than a "new cartridge that makes me happy to sell the Ortofon Vienna" After previously hearing how stunning the Vienna was, i was left intrigued!

FFW to today and a very beautiful AT ART7 was installed onto the SP10 and PMAT1010 tonearm.


I'm hoping to hear the ART7 on Friday with the PMAT1010 tonearm. :)

Bigman80
29-11-2017, 13:04
I'm hoping to hear the ART7 on Friday with the PMAT1010 tonearm. :)You are going to be very pleasantly surprised I think. I do have an update on the AT1010 V PMAT1010 Comparison I wanted to do but that will have to be written later

It's certainly not a close run race.

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