View Full Version : whats the weak link in my system
as above,
so what area should i concentrate on improving?:eyebrows:
small changes or big?
equipment is in my signature,dont worry about the cd player im focusing on analogue.
Bigman80
25-11-2017, 19:40
Well having experience with the Sony ES range and the Alphason tonearm I'd suggest changing them both.
Crofts and Firebottle amps are superior to the Sony by a mile.
The Alphason at my house never got the level this AT1010 has. Admittedly this is a fettled arm but I'd never go back. Problem here is probably the damping trough.
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whats wrong with you damping trough or do you mean mine on the rock?
Bigman80
25-11-2017, 19:44
I mean I don't know it you can use an AT1010 with the trough on the rock. . I haven't researched it [emoji23]
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I would replace the Sony and Nakamichi with a better amplification set up. Valve would be good.
I would replace the Sony and Nakamichi with a better amplification set up. Valve would be good.
anything in particular? ive not got a clue lol
I would replace the Sony and Nakamichi with a better amplification set up. Valve would be good.
I have no first-hand knowledge of your speakers but from what I have read I would say something with at least four el34 tubes. Plenty of power and taut grip.
As with all of this HiFi thing someone will be along shortly to offer a different opinion and you'll be back at square one.
Try and borrow a valve amplifier and have a listen maybe.
Well I would recommend maybe a Firebottle set up maybe, I have heard his KIN preamp which has MC stage which is very good and his Vivant phono is excellent.
If you had plenty of cash then I would recommend Nick Gorhams amps especially his phono stage.
But if you wanted to go down another route I would recommend an old Croft Charisma, Epoch or Charisma X and have them upgraded as Marco, Rexton and Blackadder have done. You would have something quite special if you went this way but you would need a head amp or SUT.
Or you could try a Croft 25 line stage with a Croft RIAA R phono stage and a Croft 7R or mono blocks plus head amp. This would sound superb. There are dealers around who could loan you this equipment to try. Dave Radlett?
These are all valve recommendations and would be the only way I would go but of course SS boys may have other ideas. Actually I have heard a simaudio moon integrated SS and this was very good indeed as is all Simaudio's equipment.
dantheman91
25-11-2017, 20:33
Much as i love Sony ES Gear - i would have say the amplifiers also - i hear NS1000's need current to drive them properly the worlds your oyster valves maybe the way to go...
Bigman80
25-11-2017, 20:40
Personally, the addition of valves has changed music for me. It's made it better in a way that's hard to describe. Emotion and atmosphere are added and a sensation of feeling the music. Personally, I'll never go back to SS, No matter who makes it.
The Vivant is so much better than it was thanks to the mods. Its now excellent.
The Croft phonostage i heard at Jimbos was divine. Simply sumptuous but incredibly capable of delivering that last echelon of insight. It inspired me to get more from my own system.
The Jolida I have here is ultimately still here because of how good it is. It loses no ground to either imo and is at least half price if you can find one. Important to note, the stock version wouldn't match the performance levels of this Jolida, the Vivant or the croft. Mods are required but not expensive. Well, the Valves are.
Most importantly, keep the nak for comparison if you can. It would be terrible if you sold it and weren't happy with its replacement.
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My personal view is that the recommendations for valves are borne of bias and not reality!
I have the NS1000M and I have heard it driven by several amps. The best have all offered good levels of current and have been solid state. The worst system I have heard had Croft amplification too! I have no bias against Croft, but they were driving totally unsuitable speakers. The importance of amp and speaker matching is crucial.
The Nakamichi preamp has a very good quality phono stage indeed, designed by Nelson Pass.
Personally, I would focus on a high-quality power amplifier but I would be trying a range of amps at home.
topoxforddoc
25-11-2017, 22:33
Jamie,
Are you happy with your system? if you are, don't change anything. If you're not, then please explain what you don't like or what's missing from the sound. Also, please let us know something about the room.
Otherwise, any suggestions are a bit pointless and rather random.
Charlie
Bigman80
26-11-2017, 00:18
My personal view is that the recommendations for valves are borne of bias and not reality!
I have the NS1000M and I have heard it driven by several amps. The best have all offered good levels of current and have been solid state. The worst system I have heard had Croft amplification too! I have no bias against Croft, but they were driving totally unsuitable speakers. The importance of amp and speaker matching is crucial.
The Nakamichi preamp has a very good quality phono stage indeed, designed by Nelson Pass.
Personally, I would focus on a high-quality power amplifier but I would be trying a range of amps at home.Bias? Why would there be bias?
I've owned several SS amps, listened to even more! I've heard Class A, Valve, digital and hybrid amps. id call it a recommendation on personal experience rather than Bias.
Any amp or phonostage Jamie chooses should be heard first, if possible. But, if a bargain is available sometimes you have to take a punt.
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I have heard Croft drive the NS1000 with ease. I think there is a myth going round that Croft amps only drive easy loads. This is not true.
A Croft 7R or 7R mono's will drive almost anything!
Which Croft amp was it you heard Oldius?
Primalsea
26-11-2017, 08:02
My tupence worth...
If it were me I would make sure that I love the speakers first but in order to do this you may want to have a nice beefy amp weather it be SS or valve.
I don't know why there is bias but the fact is that there are amazing valve amps and solid state amps and poor incarnations of both. The key is to match your speakers to your room and then your amp to your speakers.
In answer to a further question, I don't know the model but it was the highest in the Croft range. It was a high-end pre and a set of monoblocks that had been further upgraded to the highest possible level by Glen Croft. Believe me, they were incapable of driving the owner's speakers which, as a consequence, had ther dynamics completely flattened, despite being known for that quality especially.
We can all only offer the benefit of experience and Jamie is welcome here to listen to the NS1000M with three different amps, plus any that anyone else would want to bring. I would always urge that the owner should be listening to gear in their own room.
Haselsh1
26-11-2017, 09:01
Back in 1997 I had an HR100S MCS tonearm on an Alphason Sonata and being really honest, I just didn't rate it. Even with all of the surrounding hype I thought it was a poor design let down by rather a rather sloppy feel. A few years later I sold it all and bought a Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck with one of their early Spacearms. A massive improvement in feel and quality as far as the tonearm was concerned.
Haselsh1
26-11-2017, 09:04
We can all only offer the benefit of experience and Jamie is welcome here to listen to the NS1000M with three different amps, plus any that anyone else would want to bring. I would always urge that the owner should be listening to gear in their own room.
Absolutely, all any of us can do is express our findings as we observed them. Completely agree Geoff.
Firebottle
26-11-2017, 09:30
+1 for the above, the room can have such vagaries that a given set of speakers can sound so different in different environs.
:)
I think a number of excellent points have already been made in this thread. What would be the next step for your system really does depend on a whole host of personal factors; such as, what quality have you heard in other systems that you feel is missing from yours, does something specifically bother you, is your room setup optimal etc?
As some may know, I also use a pair of NS-1000Ms (as does a friend) and have heard them in a number of different environments and used with quite a numerous number of different amplification setups. My personal taste is for powerful solid sate - in fact I have ended up with 675wpc into 4 Ohms! I have heard the Yamaha’s with a number of valve amps but, although they work just fine, the bass has never felt right to me (I haven’t heard a very powerful valve amp through them - but such amps are expensive). Personally I would look at replacing your amplification. Your pre-amp may be the exception but Nakamichi amplification never did anything for me in the past. I would also say that the Rock TT has a dry, damped, quality that some love - but you may not actually be one of them - are you sure it is to your taste?
ok a bit more info,
digital sources are fine,with analogue ive had this feeling of there's something not right,(all be it minor) since going from the 2m black to the decca cartridge.
the 3 things that have not changed in this has been the amp,the tonearm and the pre amp and the speakers.
ok lets say the tonearm needs a service or the bearings are worn,what detrimental affects would i hear?
option 2 the amp isn't a good match for the speakers,again what would i hear?
I think a number of excellent points have already been made in this thread. What would be the next step for your system really does depend on a whole host of personal factors; such as, what quality have you heard in other systems that you feel is missing from yours, does something specifically bother you, is your room setup optimal etc?
As some may know, I also use a pair of NS-1000Ms (as does a friend) and have heard them in a number of different environments and used with quite a numerous number of different amplification setups. My personal taste is for powerful solid sate - in fact I have ended up with 675wpc into 4 Ohms! I have heard the Yamaha’s with a number of valve amps but, although they work just fine, the bass has never felt right to me (I haven’t heard a very powerful valve amp through them - but such amps are expensive). Personally I would look at replacing your amplification. Your pre-amp may be the exception but Nakamichi amplification never did anything for me in the past. I would also say that the Rock TT has a dry, damped, quality that some love - but you may not actually be one of them - are you sure it is to your taste?
ive not heard any other systems to compare mark, i enjoy the TT alot,it was an upgrade from my direct drive pioneer, again ive not heard any turntables to compare,its very lonely down south lol
Your point about something not seeming quite right since moving to the Decca does rather put a question mark after that change of cartridge. I have a Decca Gold in my cartridge collection and whilst it is super fast sounding it is rather dry and, almost, clinical.
If the amps aren’t in total control the bass becomes a bit detached with the NS-1000Ms, it sounds slower and softer in character than the rest of the frequency range.
If it is the arm bearings then the top end lacks texture and on climaxes there can be an edgy quality (though both the cartridge and amplification could also do this).
hmm interesting,the decca has been sold,replaced by a cadenza black,its almost as if the better the quality of cartridge,the more it shows up the niggle.
perhaps the cheapest 1st option would be to get J7 to look at the arm?
ive not heard any other systems to compare mark, i enjoy the TT alot,it was an upgrade from my direct drive pioneer, again ive not heard any turntables to compare,its very lonely down south lol
Ah well, therein lies your issue I’m afraid ;). Your Pioneer was OK but not that special in the overall scheme of things. Your Rock is a significant step up but then so would lots of other decks have been. What you really need to do is get out and hear a lot more equipment and systems. In the past NS-1000Ms have been part of a number of systems at the Wam organised Scalford show (three different pairs a couple of years back). The Wam is under radically new ownership now and next years Show is at a new venue so I don’t know how it will turn out (well I hope) but you really should arrange to visit.
hmm interesting,the decca has been sold,replaced by a cadenza black,its almost as if the better the quality of cartridge,the more it shows up the niggle.
But what actually is the ‘niggle’?
its hard to describe,id say the top end can sound a bit brittle
Female voices at the top of their range?
not when listening to pink floyd lol
Is it when listening quite loud then and on crescendo?
Bigman80
26-11-2017, 10:51
Jamie, come and do a tour of the Midlands, I'll take you to Jimbos (if available), Alan's (if available) and you can hear all of our systems. Macca is only up the road as well as a few other members. Cheap night in a hotel and a listen to some very good systems.
If you can visit all of us, that'd be a massive array of equipment.
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i could be a bit of a :wanker: here chaps,ive just re checked my cartridge alignment and it was a little off and i mean a very small amount ,im re checking now :D
I would also recommend you check the tracking weight and bias setting.
yep,back to basic for me i think....
montesquieu
26-11-2017, 11:49
I would replace the Sony and Nakamichi with a better amplification set up. Valve would be good.
+1.
Arm is absolutely fine and a good match for the Rock and Cadenza Black. (As I think I mentioned in another post I would add a wee bit of weight at the headshell as the Cadenza is medium compliance rather than high and likes a bit of mass. But that's a tiny change rather than anything significant).
Yammies respond to the same sort of thing as Tannoy HPDs, 50w+ push-pull valve power, something from the KT88/90/120/150 line-up or with doubled up parallel push pull EL34s. Get the amp-speaker axis sorted and everything else is just detail.
After that I'd address the preamp side - tube preamp and phono stage. Or get a good valve integrated like one of the EAR amps and just add a tube phono stage. The Yammies are crying out for valves. Best I ever heard a set were with my own Radford STA100 but also sounded superb with some Radford Revival/Woodside 50w monoblocks.
I also think looking at your system that a new amp / preamp would be the way to go. The rest is already in 'diminishing returns' levels IMO. I don't think that valves are necessarily a panacea to more liquid and 3D sound, it's just that it's harder to get solid state grain out of the sound, and harder to get solid state levels power from valves. I think something like an Exposure 3010S2 would be a shout for your speakers, relatively low price s/h & be able to sell on easily. Old Exposure prices seem to be flying up, but an IV amp at a good price would be well worth looking into as well.
Beobloke
26-11-2017, 19:25
(1) If you have any doubts about its health whatsoever, send the Alphason off to Audio Origami for a service. He improved mine hugely.
(2) Possible change of turntable. The Rock certainly isn't a bad deck by any means, but IMHO, the Alphason and Ortofon deserve better.
(3) Amps. In my experience, Yamaha NS1000s sound best with Yamaha amps. Others may disagree of course...;)
cheers adam,
with option 2 what would you suggest?
Bigman80
26-11-2017, 22:17
cheers adam,
with option 2 what would you suggest?SP10 MK2. Add in a Tenuto platter mat.
There isn't anything better for the money.
I'll argue that to the death.
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Beobloke
26-11-2017, 23:00
I had an SP10 Mk2 and I loved it. Then I bought a Sony TTS-8000.
Then I sold the SP10... ;)
Bigman80
26-11-2017, 23:11
I had an SP10 Mk2 and I loved it. Then I bought a Sony TTS-8000.
Then I sold the SP10... ;)Lol, well you and I both know they are as rare as rocking horse droppings and likely to be at least twice the price. Finding one in 230v is nigh on impossible.
Also, knowing a guy who can rebuild the SP10 with his eyes shut to the same high level as it was originally made makes it a no brainer.
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Bigman80
26-11-2017, 23:13
Did I say twice the price ?
http://www.audioscope.net/sony-tts8000-sony-tb2000-p-2239.html?ref=3
£9k!!!!! Only one available anywhere.
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Beobloke
26-11-2017, 23:32
I paid £300 for my TTS-8000 non-working. The last worker I saw sold for about £700, so they're really not that rare or expensive. Audioscope have some lovely items but their prices really aren't indicative of real world values. Heck, their TTS-8000 is three times the price I paid for my PS-X9!!
Bigman80
26-11-2017, 23:48
I paid £300 for my TTS-8000 non-working. The last worker I saw sold for about £700, so they're really not that rare or expensive. Audioscope have some lovely items but their prices really aren't indicative of real world values. Heck, their TTS-8000 is three times the price I paid for my PS-X9!!Wow. Well, if TTS-8000 pops up for anywhere near £700 I'll pick it up. Last one I saw in a bluish plinth was a £1500 no arm one.
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Bigman80
26-11-2017, 23:51
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F32 2887876246
Well, if Jamie is still awake, here's one with an arm!
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A left field choice would be to forget the Jap DD route and maybe try a VPI? A belter might surprise you.:)
Bigman80
27-11-2017, 14:01
Having heard your VPI scout, I can attest to its utterly wonderful capabilities and it's vanishing act during replay. Also it's a very sexy Turntable. Once on my hit list before I decided on an SP10.
Definitely recommend.
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Lol, well you and I both know they are as rare as rocking horse droppings and likely to be at least twice the price. Finding one in 230v is nigh on impossible.
Also, knowing a guy who can rebuild the SP10 with his eyes shut to the same high level as it was originally made makes it a no brainer.
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230? What country is that good for? Sorry, it's a lovely deck but I'm thinking England is still 240+.
Bigman80
27-11-2017, 14:06
230? What country is that good for?
Sorry, it's a lovely deck but I'm thinking England is still 240+.Ok, ive got fat fingers, happy? [emoji38] Obviously it's still 240v in the UK. [emoji6]
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montesquieu
27-11-2017, 14:29
Well if you are thinking of changing TTs ... I like the Rock I had a Rock II and a Rock Reference as well.
I went down the idler route (with a brief detour of a Voyd 3 motor). Garrard first, then Thorens. I'm pondering picking up an SP10 to properly test my view over a decent amount of time, but on the whole I find idlers (and specifically the TD124) more musical than direct drive decks. Both have their advantages and in general both would be my preference over belt drive decks, even high mass ones. Though the high mas decks do look pretty cool (Platine Verdier I could live with for sure).
Anyway it's true that the Rock is a potential bottleneck but I would deal with that AFTER sorting out amplification.
farflungstar
27-11-2017, 14:52
230? What country is that good for? Sorry, it's a lovely deck but I'm thinking England is still 240+.Spain, and some other places.
Oops, Spain 220v
The ARC REF 75 which is supposed to be delivered today is 230v.
I don't think it's a problem.
Depends on the purpose of the component for me. If it ain't gonna suck a lot of juice that should be fine. I think long-term though a lot of kit will suffer from a significant increase in voltage over that it was designed for.
I wasn't thinking of you ex-pat types Adrian.
farflungstar
27-11-2017, 15:41
Just spoke with my techie here who works for the eleccy board - it is 230v in Spain. Yippee.
James the Albarry lover
27-11-2017, 16:48
If you're considering going down the valve route take a look at Albarry they're very well know for sounding like a valve amp sometimes even more so, they're two different ones on eBay at the moment, they're hard to find and very highly thought of
Bigman80
27-11-2017, 16:57
Just spoke with my techie here who works for the eleccy board - it is 230v in Spain. Yippee.The whole of Europe is supposed to be 220v officially but the mean is 230v the UK still being 240v. This was the information given to me when I bought an item from Holland.
You'll be fine [emoji3]
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walpurgis
27-11-2017, 17:06
Europe, including the UK is supposed to be 230 volts +/- 10% I believe. That's a fairly wide latitude, so our likely 240 + volts comply!
I understand voltage varies a fair bit around the UK anyway.
montesquieu
27-11-2017, 17:15
If you're considering going down the valve route take a look at Albarry they're very well know for sounding like a valve amp sometimes even more so, they're two different ones on eBay at the moment, they're hard to find and very highly thought of
Paul Coupe had a set of the top level Albarrys for a while. Sounded good and I agree, without a lot of typical solid state nasties, but the Radford STA25 MkV he has at the moment sounds better all round with his HPDs.
Beobloke
27-11-2017, 17:35
Actually, although it still is around 240V most of the time, UK mains has been standardised with the the rest of Europe as 230V +10/-6% since 1995. Prior to that it was 240V nominal, and Europe was 220V.
Bigman80
27-11-2017, 17:45
Actually, although it still is around 240V most of the time, UK mains has been standardised with the the rest of Europe as 230V +10/-6% since 1995. Prior to that it was 240V nominal, and Europe was 220V.It's still 242v at my house. I think there's a lot of variance depending on you proximity to the Sub station
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ok a bit more info,
digital sources are fine,with analogue ive had this feeling of there's something not right,(all be it minor) since going from the 2m black to the decca cartridge.
the 3 things that have not changed in this has been the amp,the tonearm and the pre amp and the speakers.
?
There is your answer, if digital sounds fine it isn't the amplification or the speakers.
James the Albarry lover
27-11-2017, 18:24
Paul Coupe had a set of the top level Albarrys for a while. Sounded good and I agree, without a lot of typical solid state nasties, but the Radford STA25 MkV he has at the moment sounds better all round with his HPDs.
Had a little look at that Radford just now they look like a serious bit of kit and a real bargain compared to the price of the more recent Albarrys
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