would anyone loan me an mc sut for a trial please?

[karma67]

as above id like to try one but unsure what to go for,they seem expensive for what they are so im asking if one kind sole would let me have a loan,no longer than a few days to see if it improves on my mc stage in the pre amp.
thanks :)

[worrasf]

as above id like to try one but unsure what to go for,they seem expensive for what they are so im asking if one kind sole would let me have a loan,no longer than a few days to see if it improves on my mc stage in the pre amp.
thanks :)

I have a pair of Art Audio SUTs (one for each channel) I’m not using that you are welcome to try for the cost of return postage. They are very good. I think they are early versions of their vinyl score SUTs (http://www.artaudio.co.uk/accessories/) - they look very similar other than that mine have flying leads rather than a phono plug to connect to the preamp.
Steve


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[karma67]

thats a very kind offer mate,excuse my ignorance but whats a flying lead?

[worrasf]

thats a very kind offer mate,excuse my ignorance but whats a flying lead?

Hi
Just means that rather than having a phono plug that you connect a separate interconnect to there is an integral lead so you don’t need a separate cable - removes 1 connection in the signal path
Steve


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[karma67]

ah got you. :)

[alcarmichael]

I'm happy to loan you my excellent Arkless head amp if interested?

[maverick2000]

Jamie I'd help but we are a long way apart, what I can tell you is that in my case my EAR phono stage unit has MC and MM inputs (there are lots of versions!!), I use a Puresound T10 SUT and it is immediately audibly superior to the EAR, so worth a try of a SUT in your set up I'd say.

Of course YMMV

[walpurgis]

my EAR phono stage unit has MC and MM inputs (there are lots of versions!!), I use a Puresound T10 SUT and it is immediately audibly superior to the EAR, so worth a try of a SUT in your set up I'd say

I'm assuming you mean the EAR 834P. I had the MM/MC version too. The built in SUT's are rubbish. It sounded way better through the MM input using a decent external SUT.

I moved the EAR on, as I wasn't entirely happy with the sound.

[karma67]

My logic in wanting to try this is with every mc I’ve used in my pre amp has sounded good but each time I’ve ended up back to moving magnet cartridges, the zyx I borrowed sounded bland which obviously it isn’t so this has got me thinking there’s a pattern happening. The mm stage is fantastic hence me wanting to try a sut
The cadenza black sounds wonderful so if my theory is right I’m in for a big improvement, famous last words I know lol

[walpurgis]

My logic in wanting to try this is with every mc I’ve used in my pre amp has sounded good but each time I’ve ended up back to moving magnet cartridges, the zyx I borrowed sounded bland which obviously it isn’t so this has got me thinking there’s a pattern happening. The mm stage is fantastic hence me wanting to try a sut

Sensible move. Should give you some answers.

[WESTLOWER]

this is worth a home trial, not a SUT but seriously close to a top SUT..and for the money, well..
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?52387-AD-Audio-Jfet-MC-amplifier

[RothwellAudio]

this is worth a home trial, not a SUT but seriously close to a top SUT..and for the money, well..
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?52387-AD-Audio-Jfet-MC-amplifier

That isn't a step-up transformer, it's a headamp - not the same thing at all.

[WESTLOWER]

That isn't a step-up transformer, it's a headamp - not the same thing at all.

Yes Andrew, the bit where I say this is not a SUT would have indicated that fact!
It was an alternative, thats all.

[hifi_dave]

Yes Andrew, the bit where I say this is not a SUT would have indicated that fact!
It was an alternative, thats all.

"SUT" is a step up transformer. A "head amp" is an amplifier for MC cartridges.

[struth]

true, but they give the same result so it was a fair enough mention.

[RothwellAudio]

true, but they give the same result so it was a fair enough mention.
Same result? Maybe, but it's a bit like someone asking for valve amp recommendations and being told to try out a transistor amp. Does the technology matter if they both do the same job? Maybe not, but the OP did ask about SUTs.

[struth]

the op is welcome to reject the idea, but its something he might have overlooked. thats why it is ok for a single mention.

[WESTLOWER]

Same result? Maybe, but it's a bit like someone asking for valve amp recommendations and being told to try out a transistor amp. Does the technology matter if they both do the same job? Maybe not, but the OP did ask about SUTs.

blimey I was trying to be helpful with an alternative..forget it :rolleyes:

[simonh]

Hi Jamie,
I have an RFC SUT, 1:10 (I think) you're welcome to borrow. I'm also in Brighton - Hanover

[karma67]

Sweet as, yes please, pm me your address

[sq225917]

Are you not interested in just trying a better MC phonostage?

[Marco]

That won't necessarily be better. However, it will be distinctly more expensive! ;)

Marco.

[montesquieu]

Hopefully the one I sent you should have arrived today?


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[karma67]

Are you not interested in just trying a better MC phonostage?

well yes but if you search for nakamichi ca-5 pre amp you'll see that the phono stage in them is highly regarded,i bought mine just for it.
i have an open mind though so all suggestions welcome.
i have the first sut very kindly sent to me to try tonight :)

[karma67]

Hopefully the one I sent you should have arrived today?


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i have a card through my door to say the post office called,i wont be able to collect it untill saturday though.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yep a 4 box paradise works very well with the Black. :D

[karma67]

it bloody well should do for the price! :lol:

[montesquieu]

well yes but if you search for nakamichi ca-5 pre amp you'll see that the phono stage in them is highly regarded,i bought mine just for it.
i have an open mind though so all suggestions welcome.


No bottles in it though! (Just about) every phono stage needs bottles.

If you are experimenting you need to try a tube phono stage.

[Bigman80]

No bottles in it though! (Just about) every phono stage needs bottles.

If you are experimenting you need to try a tube phono stage.Agreed. I'm building a MM valve phonostage. PCB cost £6.50! From Valve Wizard. Google it.

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[karma67]

so today i been listening to 2 sut very kindly loaned to me by steve and tom,the sut's are an Art Audio and an Ortofon 2-15k.

both sut's performed well,the differences if any are very subtle so i can cross of my mc stage in the nakamichi being pants! phew .
in all honesty i ended up preferring mine which had a bit more zing to the top end,perhaps because im used to it?
i was hoping for a big difference in them but alas no,in the end i got tired of swapping so that proves to me they were in the same ball park.
many thanks guys for the loan,very much appreciated and very kind of you both :)

[Bigman80]

SUTs are not the answer in my experience. A headamp, that's a different story. Hashimoto lost out to a Denon HA-500. You'd enjoy one of those.

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[montesquieu]

SUTs are not the answer in my experience. A headamp, that's a different story. Hashimoto lost out to a Denon HA-500. You'd enjoy one of those.

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Frankly don’t believe this. Must be something odd going on in the testing.

I’ve owned the ha500 and the ha1000. The 1000 is better but both miss the organic richness of a top class SUT like the Hashimoto HM7.

You don’t say which Hashimoto but while not in the same bracket as the HM7 the HM3 and HMX should both show a clean pair of heels to the ha500, using a sufficiently good cartridge into a decent tube phono stage.

The ha500 is decent enough but has a flatter, drier presentation than a good SUT like a top end Hashimoto ... it’s very, very hard for me believe, with decent partnering kit, that anyone would like it better.

[Bigman80]

Tom, I'm sharing my experience of the time I heard a Hashimoto (think they were HM3 but not 100%.I will confirm) v a Denon HA-500.

There was 3 of us in a room and we all heard the same thing. The HA-500 had been rebuilt so was like new. The Hashimotos were also like new.

I have now heard 3 SUTs in very good systems. A Denon SUT (320?) A Fidelity research and Hashimoto. They were all outdone by head amps or a direct to MC input.

The SUTs don't produce an even sound. they lack the extended highs and lows of the bandwidth that a good headamp can reproduce. The SUTs sound lush and rich because they excel in the midrange. In my experience.

I feel I have a good system and I've put a FRT-3 and a Denon (320 Sut) In my system in my house and just felt they added nothing to the sound. The Denon sounded like it had increased bass levels but at the cost of definition. The FRT-3 sounded good but when I removed it all the sparkle and soundstage returned.

Personal taste dictates that you'll pick what you like listening to. Some folk like a warm sound, others, like me, don't.

This has been my experience with SUTs, yours may be different but the fact Jamie tried a very good SUT or two and heard no benefit doesn't surprise me at all.

The only SUT I've heard which sounded good but without comparison was a Music First Audio MC Step-Up V2 (£2400) it was plugged into MFA Monoblocks (£7500) and MFA phonostage (£8200) and then into Yamaha NS1000m speakers.

I could live with that system [emoji23]


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[walpurgis]

The FRT-3 sounded good but when I removed it all the sparkle and soundstage returned

I don't get that. The FRT-3 may be fairly humble, but lacking in 'sparkle' is something I'd never accuse it of. If anything it has a fraction too much. The sound is very vibrant and lively. Sounds like a mismatch somewhere, cartridge maybe or cable effects.

[Bigman80]

I don't get that. The FRT-3 may be fairly humble, but lacking in 'sparkle' is something I'd never accuse it of. If anything it has a fraction too much. The sound is very vibrant and lively. Sounds like a mismatch somewhere, cartridge maybe or cable effects.You could be right Geoff. I only have my own experience to draw from. The Music first SUT/Phonostage/cart/ combination at the Huddersfield Bakeoff was very well matched and imo is the best sounding vinyl replay ive heard. That had a Denon 103r on it.

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[montesquieu]

SUTs are not the answer




The SUTs don't produce an even sound. they lack the extended highs and lows of the bandwidth that a good headamp can reproduce. The SUTs sound lush and rich because they excel in the midrange.

...


The only SUT I've heard which sounded good but without comparison was a Music First Audio MC Step-Up V2 (£2400)



I'm sorry mate but it seems to me you are drawing universal conclusions here from a very limited set of data - ie headamps [always - inferred] sound better than SUTs.

You've taken a couple of low-ish end SUTs and a midrange one that's a little down the pack in Hashimoto's pecking order, and come to a conclusion that I don't think is supportable in a wider sense.

The HA500 is a good piece of kit and I've recommended it myself to people, particularly with Denons, who don't want to spend more than £200-300 on a SUT. But that's where it sits. Against a Denon 320 SUT especially with a DL103 I'd expect it to come through (though I actually have a soft spot for the 320 maybe because I owned one for quite a few years). Perhaps less so against the FR-3 but while a cut above the 320, it's still lowish end in the SUT world, there are several models above it even just from Fidelity Research.

However even if the Hashimoto was an HM3, all other things being optimized, it should easily be more refined, rounded, detailed and vivid than a HA500. I certainly wouldn't expect duff treble, no bass and a bloated midrange. If that was the case then something is wrong - as Geoff says, cable effects perhaps or something else gone wrong. I would expect the HM3, if properly matched to the cartridge and a decent tube phono stage, to pull well ahead of a HA500, not as a matter of taste but as a matter of obviousness. (Though the 'if' - the matching - is rather critical).

I had the DIY version of the MF SUT, (the S&B TX103 - same transformers inside) and it was indeed superb, but while convenient and highly adjustable it was no better than an HM7 indeed that's what I replaced mine with. (Though if it had had more than 1:20 max ratio I'd have kept it).

I now don't have to worry about SUTs or cables or positioning, as I have a very nice set of SUTs (four settings, plus a three-step gain control setting - a veritable Swiss Army knife of input options) built into my EAR 912. Though I still use one in my study system when using an SPU into a Schiit Mani, there the MM input is significantly better than the MC side (as is commonly the case where both options are offered) so a SUT comes into its own. This is audible even with a modest one (Ortofon 2-15k acquired from Barry and currently on loan to Jaimie).

Anyway I would still argue you are drawing a big conclusion from limited data. Even the very high-end Aurorasound Vida phono stage which I owned for several years sounded significantly better with a decent SUT rather than the MC input (I used quite a number of SUTs into this including a Kondo AN-S6c, the S&B mentioned above, and of course the HM7). This was something I demonstrated regularly to people when I had the Vida.

Incidentally I would caution Jaimie from making the same conclusion, neither the Art Audio SUTs he borrowed nor my 2-15k are what I would describe as high-end SUTs (I've had the Art Audios in my setup on a seven-way SUT shootout written up a few years ago, and they performed ok, but came in well down the list). And I would still recommend he compare a SUT + good tube phono stage vs what's in his Nakamichi.

[julesd68]

I don't get that. The FRT-3 may be fairly humble, but lacking in 'sparkle' is something I'd never accuse it of. If anything it has a fraction too much. The sound is very vibrant and lively. Sounds like a mismatch somewhere, cartridge maybe or cable effects.

Agreed 100%.

I'm using an FRT-3 with my CJ tube phono stage and get a fantastically transparent and vibrant sound from it. Very airy and detailed in the top end as well. I really wouldn't be without it.

One of my best purchases - thanks Geoff! :youtheman:

[Bigman80]

I'm sorry mate but it seems to me you are drawing universal conclusions here from a very limited set of data - ie headamps [always - inferred] sound better than SUTs.

You've taken a couple of low-ish end SUTs and a midrange one that's a little down the pack in Hashimoto's pecking order, and come to a conclusion that I don't think is supportable in a wider sense.

The HA500 is a good piece of kit and I've recommended it myself to people, particularly with Denons, who don't want to spend more than £200-300 on a SUT. But that's where it sits. Against a Denon 320 SUT especially with a DL103 I'd expect it to come through (though I actually have a soft spot for the 320 maybe because I owned one for quite a few years). Perhaps less so against the FR-3 but while a cut above the 320, it's still lowish end in the SUT world, there are several models above it even just from Fidelity Research.

However even if the Hashimoto was an HM3, all other things being optimized, it should easily be more refined, rounded, detailed and vivid than a HA500. I certainly wouldn't expect duff treble, no bass and a bloated midrange. If that was the case then something is wrong - as Geoff says, cable effects perhaps or something else gone wrong. I would expect the HM3, if properly matched to the cartridge and a decent tube phono stage, to pull well ahead of a HA500, not as a matter of taste but as a matter of obviousness. (Though the 'if' - the matching - is rather critical).

I had the DIY version of the MF SUT, (the S&B TX103 - same transformers inside) and it was indeed superb, but while convenient and highly adjustable it was no better than an HM7 indeed that's what I replaced mine with. (Though if it had had more than 1:20 max ratio I'd have kept it).

I now don't have to worry about SUTs or cables or positioning, as I have a very nice set of SUTs (four settings, plus a three-step gain control setting - a veritable Swiss Army knife of input options) built into my EAR 912. Though I still use one in my study system when using an SPU into a Schiit Mani, there the MM input is significantly better than the MC side (as is commonly the case where both options are offered) so a SUT comes into its own. This is audible even with a modest one (Ortofon 2-15k acquired from Barry and currently on loan to Jaimie).

Anyway I would still argue you are drawing a big conclusion from limited data. Even the very high-end Aurorasound Vida phono stage which I owned for several years sounded significantly better with a decent SUT rather than the MC input (I used quite a number of SUTs into this including a Kondo AN-S6c, the S&B mentioned above, and of course the HM7). This was something I demonstrated regularly to people when I had the Vida.

Incidentally I would caution Jaimie from making the same conclusion, neither the Art Audio SUTs he borrowed nor my 2-15k are what I would describe as high-end SUTs (I've had the Art Audios in my setup on a seven-way SUT shootout written up a few years ago, and they performed ok, but came in well down the list). And I would still recommend he compare a SUT + good tube phono stage vs what's in his Nakamichi.To be fair Tom, you are right in the sense that modest priced SUTs may not be up to the task but when we are talking about spending thousands on a Transformer its obviously going to be a different matter.

My experience may be at the mediocre end of the scale but my comparison is done with similar priced Head amps and I'm afraid the head amp performed better. As I said it has a wider bandwidth. I'm happy for the figures to be presented to demonstrate otherwise.

Unless Jamie is going to spend 2 months wages on a Transformer, he'd be better off with either a MC input stage or a Headamp of sufficient quality.

I certainly wasn't drawing an ultimate conclusion as the end of my post shows, I was a big fan of the MF transformer.

Realistically, who's got the money for that though. My conclusion was based in the mediocre end of the spectrum. Sorry if that wasn't clear [emoji6]



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[montesquieu]

I would agree 100% that a head amp can offer better VFM (and better sound) than a cheap SUT. I was trying to make clear that that conclusion doesn't follow upwards.

Incidentally I wouldn't want to be accused of insisting people spend a fortune here. You don't need to spend thousands. With the exception of the Kondo (which has a 1 ohm / 1:70 setting necessary for the Io I was running at the time) I've never spent more than £1k on a SUT, typically quite a bit less. (Though often I've acquired the transformers loose and had someone make the unit up for me).

I would definitely argue though that you shouldn't see MC=>MM step up as a minor add on. It's perfectly logical to spend the same as or even more than the price of the MM phono stage on a SUT (or head amp for that matter), if you want to get the best out of a good MC cartridge. This should always be taken into account when considering a move from MM to MC as it's most definitely not just about cartridge selection.

[struth]

I would say that at lower price levels a head amp is probably going to work better than the other 2, and that was the way I read it, although I can see it maybe doesnt read that way after rereading.

[Bigman80]

I would say that at lower price levels a head amp is probably going to work better than the other 2, and that was the way I read it, although I can see it maybe doesnt read that way after rereading.Yep, probably should have been clearer bit you know how it is, I knew what I was talking about 🤣🤣

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[Intenso]

I would say that at lower price levels a head amp is probably going to work better than the other 2, and that was the way I read it, although I can see it maybe doesnt read that way after rereading.

Yep, that's how I read it as well and this part of this thread has been really helpful to someone who is planning on buying either a midrange Headamp or SUT.

My feeling is that given the modest tube phono stage that I plan to use the headamp at this level may be that way to go.

[Bigman80]

Yep, that's how I read it as well and this part of this thread has been really helpful to someone who is planning on buying either a midrange Headamp or SUT.

My feeling is that given the modest tube phono stage that I plan to use the headamp at this level may be that way to go.The best Modestly priced SUT I've heard is the FRT-3, I just couldn't judge what was better/worse difference between the MC stage and the FRT-3 the others I've heard like the Denon 320 seemed to add warmth and bass, that's only in my system though

The FRT did sound more transparent, in fact I'm probably doing it a disservice, it wasn't apparent when it was in so that's a good thing.

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[Intenso]

I think the challenge with buying at the mid to lower end of the market is that there is some difference between the price of Headamps and SUTs if buying new.

For example the Rothwell Headspace is £300 whereas the Rothwell MCL is nearer £500 and will it be that much better?

It will definitely be less flexible.

I've already tried a low end SUT the AT630 and it is nowhere near as good as my phono stage's built in MC stage.

I'd prefer to buy 2nd hand but how often do these items turn up...

[Bigman80]

I think the challenge with buying at the mid to lower end of the market is that there is some difference between the price of Headamps and SUTs if buying new.

For example the Rothwell Headspace is £300 whereas the Rothwell MCL is nearer £500 and will it be that much better?

It will definitely be less flexible.

I've already tried a low end SUT the AT630 and it is nowhere near as good as my phono stage's built in MC stage.

I'd prefer to buy 2nd hand but how often do these items turn up...That's very true. I will be looking for some sort of step up myself once I've finished building my MM valve phonostage. I may even try an FRT-3 again. 2 on eBay for less than £200. That's ridiculous, I sold mine for £250 about a year ago.

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[speedracer]

Jamie, I have a mate who has a Rock with the same Alphason arm as yourself & I am sure he would be willing to bring it along to compare turntables & put your mind at rest about the arm bearing if nothing else. It is of known great SQ so could prove a useful comparison for you.

[karma67]

hi brook,
thats a good idea,where's he live?

[farflungstar]

I'm sorry mate but it seems to me you are drawing universal conclusions here from a very limited set of data - ie headamps [always - inferred] sound better than SUTs.

You've taken a couple of low-ish end SUTs and a midrange one that's a little down the pack in Hashimoto's pecking order, and come to a conclusion that I don't think is supportable in a wider sense.

The HA500 is a good piece of kit and I've recommended it myself to people, particularly with Denons, who don't want to spend more than £200-300 on a SUT. But that's where it sits. Against a Denon 320 SUT especially with a DL103 I'd expect it to come through (though I actually have a soft spot for the 320 maybe because I owned one for quite a few years). Perhaps less so against the FR-3 but while a cut above the 320, it's still lowish end in the SUT world, there are several models above it even just from Fidelity Research.

However even if the Hashimoto was an HM3, all other things being optimized, it should easily be more refined, rounded, detailed and vivid than a HA500. I certainly wouldn't expect duff treble, no bass and a bloated midrange. If that was the case then something is wrong - as Geoff says, cable effects perhaps or something else gone wrong. I would expect the HM3, if properly matched to the cartridge and a decent tube phono stage, to pull well ahead of a HA500, not as a matter of taste but as a matter of obviousness. (Though the 'if' - the matching - is rather critical).

I had the DIY version of the MF SUT, (the S&B TX103 - same transformers inside) and it was indeed superb, but while convenient and highly adjustable it was no better than an HM7 indeed that's what I replaced mine with. (Though if it had had more than 1:20 max ratio I'd have kept it).

I now don't have to worry about SUTs or cables or positioning, as I have a very nice set of SUTs (four settings, plus a three-step gain control setting - a veritable Swiss Army knife of input options) built into my EAR 912. Though I still use one in my study system when using an SPU into a Schiit Mani, there the MM input is significantly better than the MC side (as is commonly the case where both options are offered) so a SUT comes into its own. This is audible even with a modest one (Ortofon 2-15k acquired from Barry and currently on loan to Jaimie).

Anyway I would still argue you are drawing a big conclusion from limited data. Even the very high-end Aurorasound Vida phono stage which I owned for several years sounded significantly better with a decent SUT rather than the MC input (I used quite a number of SUTs into this including a Kondo AN-S6c, the S&B mentioned above, and of course the HM7). This was something I demonstrated regularly to people when I had the Vida.

Incidentally I would caution Jaimie from making the same conclusion, neither the Art Audio SUTs he borrowed nor my 2-15k are what I would describe as high-end SUTs (I've had the Art Audios in my setup on a seven-way SUT shootout written up a few years ago, and they performed ok, but came in well down the list). And I would still recommend he compare a SUT + good tube phono stage vs what's in his Nakamichi.I agree with Tom. My Hashimoto HMX is basically the HM7 wth a different response, higher top end extension and slightly less lower end. It is certainly not limited at either extreme and is sublime across the board. I am however, as is Tom, using it with possibly one of the best phonostages available, and in truth the difference with or without the SUT is very very subtle.

[speedracer]

hi brook,
thats a good idea,where's he live?

He is in Lancing Jamie, not far at all, & I would come along too if you don't mind.

[farflungstar]

If money is tight but performance important id look at Dave Slagle, who i believe can do them and I've read very good things about them. If they are anything like his TVC's then they should be outstanding.

[Bigman80]

If money is tight but performance important id look at Dave Slagle, who i believe can do them and I've read very good things about them. If they are anything like his TVC's then they should be outstanding.+1 for the Dave Slagle recommendation. My Slagle AVC is outstanding (Thanks Ali Tait)

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[karma67]

He is in Lancing Jamie, not far at all, & I would come along too if you don't mind.

sweet as,yes your welcome too,how about next saturday?
if he's got a decent amp he could bring that as well :)

[Bigman80]

I agree with Tom. My Hashimoto HMX is basically the HM7 wth a different response, higher top end extension and slightly less lower end. It is certainly not limited at either extreme and is sublime across the board. I am however, as is Tom, using it with possibly one of the best phonostages available, and in truth the difference with or without the SUT is very very subtle.Hi Adrian,

If it's very very subtle, why use one? Does your stage have direct MC input capability? (Can't see you gear on Tapatalk)

I'm genuinely interested as to what it brings to the party in your system or is there any "expectation bias" due to having invested substantially in an SUT?





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[farflungstar]

I use the Vida, the SUT adds a slight improvement in airiness and tonallity but it is slight. However it's enough to keep it in the loop - and it's not expectation bias, I've had it a good while now and experimented with and without - I like it in. The Vida is a head amp I guess, so they can be superb, but they're not cheap! Tom may have a different opinion as he's now using the Ear pre.

[montesquieu]

I use the Vida, the SUT adds a slight improvement in airiness and tonallity but it is slight. However it's enough to keep it in the loop - and it's not expectation bias, I've had it a good while now and experimented with and without - I like it in. The Vida is a head amp I guess, so they can be superb, but they're not cheap! Tom may have a different opinion as he's now using the Ear pre.

Agree with Adey - it's plain the SUT improves things over straight MC input - not massive, but it's definitely noticeable. Don't get me wrong it's a top quality MC input and it's perfectly possible to use it that way, but a good SUT just adds that bit more air and dimensionality. This was most noticeable when I used it with the Audio Note Japan AN-S6cc but was also quite discernable with the Hashimoto HM-7 and the TX103.

[speedracer]

Okay I will have a word & get back to you, & yes he has more than 1 very very decent amps ;)

[Natara]

I have been reading this thread with great interest as I have been wondering if an sut would be an upgrade connected to my Trichord Dino with the dip switches set to MM. I have just acquired a Benz Micro Ace SL and wondered if the Trichord is up to the task of getting the very best from this cart and as a very expensive stage is out of my reach would an SUT offer some of what a more expensive stage could give to the Benz?

[Bigman80]

I use the Vida, the SUT adds a slight improvement in airiness and tonallity but it is slight. However it's enough to keep it in the loop - and it's not expectation bias, I've had it a good while now and experimented with and without - I like it in. The Vida is a head amp I guess, so they can be superb, but they're not cheap! Tom may have a different opinion as he's now using the Ear pre.Thanks Adrian, the Vida looks lovely!!! But we're not talking Modest in terms of price are we [emoji54]



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[Bigman80]

I have been reading this thread with great interest as I have been wondering if an sut would be an upgrade connected to my Trichord Dino with the dip switches set to MM. I have just acquired a Benz Micro Ace SL and wondered if the Trichord is up to the task of getting the very best from this cart and as a very expensive stage is out of my reach would an SUT offer some of what a more expensive stage could give to the Benz?

It can't give what's not there IMO.it may change something in the presentation which may be favourable or not. Unless you're going to spend big (£1k+), don't bother or borrow one and see for yourself. The FRT-3 is probably as good as it gets under (£500 used).

SUTs and Head amps are literally just there to provide Gain to the MC signal to make it work with MM phonostages.

Only my opinion [emoji12]


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[walpurgis]

I don't know about the Dino, but some MM/MC phono stages actually do sound better used via the MM side with an SUT. The MM/MC version of the EAR 834P springs to mind, where this was very evident.

As SUT's tend to resell at the price paid for them, there's not a lot to lose by trying one. Cheap SUT's are a disaster though and ruin the MC experience. Regard something like the Fidelity Research FRT-3 as being at the minimum price point for something worthwhile.

[Natara]

Yes I suppose borrowing either an SUT or HeadAmp would be the ideal situation and if anyone would be kind enough that would be great and if it brought improvements I would definitely be up for making the deal permanent and buying it or another one if the loaned one wasn't for sale. Because I do really feel the Benz Micro has more to give and such a trial may also be of interest to anyone else in a similar position of trying to get more from a an MM/MC stage.

[WESTLOWER]

Yes I suppose borrowing either an SUT or HeadAmp would be the ideal situation and if anyone would be kind enough that would be great and if it brought improvements I would definitely be up for making the deal permanent and buying it or another one if the loaned one wasn't for sale. Because I do really feel the Benz Micro has more to give and such a trial may also be of interest to anyone else in a similar position of trying to get more from a an MM/MC stage.

I can offer a tiny bit of input. I used a Dynavector XXX2MK2 and a Benz Mirco Glider L2 both with a Jfet 'head amp' Amplifier (battery powered) and a Hashimoto HM-7 Step Up.
Now the differences were there, the Hashimoto having slightly more texture and subtle detail over the frequencies. I have to say it wasn't night and day between the Head Amp and the SUT but it was quite noticeable.
I guess thats what we are talking about at this stage of the game, the incremental differences with different equipment. I always have a slight issue with hifi lingo, articulating the differences I hear is not easy.
But it came down to what I preferred, nothing else. It would have made me financially happier if the Jfet head amp had beat or was on the same level as the Hashimoto Step Up as there was £800 to be gained from
the hHead amp being as good. Alas it was not. But lets get it right, the £175 (at the time) jfet Head amp gave a very very good presentation and was incredibly enjoyable. £800 difference, probably not, but who can put a price on the increments in sound quality. I did offer this advice at the beginning of this thread but was shot down in flames for daring to add the Jfet amplifier to the mix, when SUT advice was being asked for..
But it would make perfect sense that this little thing can give great performance on a modest outlay. If your purse is larger and the fancy takes you, then the higher end SUT route is the way to go, if you want a 'slightly' lower level performance and save some dosh then go the other route.
My initial review is in the link below, for what it's worth.

btw I have no commercial interest with AD Audio
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?52387-AD-Audio-Jfet-MC-amplifier

[Bigman80]

I can offer a tiny bit of input. I used a Dynavector XXX2MK2 and a Benz Mirco Glider L2 both with a Jfet 'head amp' Amplifier (battery powered) and a Hashimoto HM-7 Step Up.
Now the differences were there, the Hashimoto having slightly more texture and subtle detail over the frequencies. I have to say it wasn't night and day between the Head Amp and the SUT but it was quite noticeable.
I guess thats what we are talking about at this stage of the game, the incremental differences with different equipment. I always have a slight issue with hifi lingo, articulating the differences I hear is not easy.
But it came down to what I preferred, nothing else. It would have made me financially happier if the Jfet head amp had beat or was on the same level as the Hashimoto Step Up as there was £800 to be gained from
the hHead amp being as good. Alas it was not. But lets get it right, the £175 (at the time) jet Head amp gave a very very good presentation and was incredibly enjoyable. £800 difference, probably not, but who can put a price on the increments in sound quality. I did offer this advice at the beginning of this thread but was shot down in flames for daring to add the Jfet amplifier to the mix, when SUT advice was being asked for..
But it would make perfect sense that this little thing can give great performance on a modest outlay. If your purse is larger and the fancy takes you, then the higher end SUT route is the way to go, if you want a 'slightly' lower level performance and save some dosh then go the other route.
My initial review is in the link below, for what it's worth.

btw I have no commercial interest with AD Audio
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?52387-AD-Audio-Jfet-MC-amplifierI imagine the JFeT head amp would do very well against the modestly priced SUTs.

The fact it took over (i assume) £800 to better it with the HM-7 says exactly what I thought.

You were right to suggest the Head amp option because it offers better VFM at the low to medium end of the spectrum. Can a high end head amp compete with a high end sut? ........ That's the question.

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[Ali Tait]

Having used a few SUT and head amps, I would characterise them as the head putting you several rows closer to the performance- a little more in your face if you will, the SUT giving a more relaxed presentation by comparison, a little more fluid.

[RothwellAudio]

I have now heard 3 SUTs in very good systems. A Denon SUT (320?) A Fidelity research and Hashimoto. They were all outdone by head amps or a direct to MC input.

The SUTs don't produce an even sound. they lack the extended highs and lows of the bandwidth that a good headamp can reproduce. The SUTs sound lush and rich because they excel in the midrange. In my experience.
Unless I missed it I don't see where you mention what cartridge has been used to come to this conclusion. Some cartridges are a lot less SUT-friendly than others.

[Bigman80]

Unless I missed it I don't see where you mention what cartridge has been used to come to this conclusion. Some cartridges are a lot less SUT-friendly than others.Ah, yes good point. AT33PTGII, Ortofon Vienna, ZYX Bloom R50.

There will be further comparisons Tomorrow with Hashimoto HM-3 v Denon HA-500 with the Ortofon Vienna, Goldring Eroica and AT33ptgii. Also another cartridge. I intend to investigate thoroughly. Also have the hybrid Valve monoblocks and a Sansui AU-D9 to go with aswell.



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[WESTLOWER]

Ah, yes good point. AT33PTGII, Ortofon Vienna, ZYX Bloom R50.

There will be further comparisons Tomorrow with Hashimoto HM-3 v Denon HA-500 with the Ortofon Vienna, Goldring Eroica and AT33ptgii. Also another cartridge. I intend to investigate thoroughly. Also have the hybrid Valve monoblocks and a Sansui AU-D9 to go with aswell.



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Easy fella! you may get into a head spin...

[Bigman80]

Easy fella! you may get into a head spin...Haha, I know. Its probably too much change all at once but I plan to do the SUT v Ha comparison with the AT I know well. The rest is just options.

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[Firebottle]

Easy fella! you may get into a head spin...

He's not called bigman for nothing, I think it must be the rarified atmosphere up there having it's effect :rfl:

[Intenso]

Just to add another variable to the mix my new tube phono stage arrived today and connected to my cheapy AT630 it doesn't sound too shabby.

The AT630 with my SS Trigon stage was a complete mismatch though with a sharp edgy sound.

[Bigman80]

He's not called bigman for nothing, I think it must be the rarified atmosphere up there having it's effect :rfl:[emoji38][emoji38]

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[RothwellAudio]

Ah, yes good point. AT33PTGII, Ortofon Vienna, ZYX Bloom R50.

There will be further comparisons Tomorrow with Hashimoto HM-3 v Denon HA-500 with the Ortofon Vienna, Goldring Eroica and AT33ptgii. Also another cartridge. I intend to investigate thoroughly. Also have the hybrid Valve monoblocks and a Sansui AU-D9 to go with aswell.

I'd rate those cartridges as being SUT-friendly in terms of a healthy output and nice low source impedance, so the tests you're planning are a fair comparison in my opinion.
Yes, headamps are capable of a wider bandwidth than most SUTs but usually don't do as well in terms of noise - at least the "hiss" type of noise. SUTs are more prone to picking up hum though. Having said that, it's possible for both technologies to have noise well below vinyl surface noise and bandwidths wide enough to cover 20Hz - 20kHz, and when you get to that point it's all about perceived sound quality.

[Bigman80]

I'd rate those cartridges as being SUT-friendly in terms of a healthy output and nice low source impedance, so the tests you're planning are a fair comparison in my opinion.
Yes, headamps are capable of a wider bandwidth than most SUTs but usually don't do as well in terms of noise - at least the "hiss" type of noise. SUTs are more prone to picking up hum though. Having said that, it's possible for both technologies to have noise well below vinyl surface noise and bandwidths wide enough to cover 20Hz - 20kHz, and when you get to that point it's all about perceived sound quality.Thanks for that, I think they are a fair amount of quality too. A spectrum of cost £300 for an Eroica, £450 for the AT33PTGII and £2000+ for the Ortofon. I am sure the mystery cartridge Phonomac is bringing will fit in there too. I'll update once I know it's identity!!!

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[Natara]

Thank you for the advice I suppose I will have to just stump up and try one the Jfet looks interesting but perhaps something used would be better value as a trial.


I can offer a tiny bit of input. I used a Dynavector XXX2MK2 and a Benz Mirco Glider L2 both with a Jfet 'head amp' Amplifier (battery powered) and a Hashimoto HM-7 Step Up.
Now the differences were there, the Hashimoto having slightly more texture and subtle detail over the frequencies. I have to say it wasn't night and day between the Head Amp and the SUT but it was quite noticeable.
I guess thats what we are talking about at this stage of the game, the incremental differences with different equipment. I always have a slight issue with hifi lingo, articulating the differences I hear is not easy.
But it came down to what I preferred, nothing else. It would have made me financially happier if the Jfet head amp had beat or was on the same level as the Hashimoto Step Up as there was £800 to be gained from
the hHead amp being as good. Alas it was not. But lets get it right, the £175 (at the time) jfet Head amp gave a very very good presentation and was incredibly enjoyable. £800 difference, probably not, but who can put a price on the increments in sound quality. I did offer this advice at the beginning of this thread but was shot down in flames for daring to add the Jfet amplifier to the mix, when SUT advice was being asked for..
But it would make perfect sense that this little thing can give great performance on a modest outlay. If your purse is larger and the fancy takes you, then the higher end SUT route is the way to go, if you want a 'slightly' lower level performance and save some dosh then go the other route.
My initial review is in the link below, for what it's worth.

btw I have no commercial interest with AD Audio
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?52387-AD-Audio-Jfet-MC-amplifier

[alcarmichael]

In my experience, I also prefer the head amp to the SUT. I absolutely loved the sound my system produced when I used HM7's, I was amazed, this was then topped by a Tribute SUT, something I wish I still had (Ali if you ever sell it on please let me know, I'd like it back).

These though were both bettered by the Arkless head amp which I offered to loan to Jamie earlier on in the thread but he missed my post. To me it provided more excitement to the music, as Ali said, like you're closer to the main stage.

[karma67]

you wasn't ignored,i missed the post thats all.

[alcarmichael]

Edited.