Digital help please...

[Haselsh1]

I am a hardcore vinyl fan but would love some help to get to understand more about CD. I have a Chinese Original 2008F HDCD player modified for UK mains which uses a PCM 1792 and PCM 1732. It also uses an OPA2604 and an OPA627. What does this all mean and how does this stack up against the competition...? Keep it simple please, I'm used to counterweights and tracking force...!

[Haselsh1]

OK so I've been doing a bit of investigating on the 'net and it would appear that the previously mentioned digital components are way up there with the very finest available today. If that's the case then CD is very definitely inferior to vinyl as my CD replay is still very coarse and grainy compared to my vinyl system. I guess this proves what I always thought was the case.

[Stratmangler]

OK so I've been doing a bit of investigating on the 'net and it would appear that the previously mentioned digital components are way up there with the very finest available today. If that's the case then CD is very definitely inferior to vinyl as my CD replay is still very coarse and grainy compared to my vinyl system. I guess this proves what I always thought was the case.

If your CDP sounds coarse and grainy then I suggest that you look at the output stage first as being the most likely culprit.

Perhaps Leo or UV101 could give you some pointers ?

Chris:)

[Haselsh1]

I guess it's possible that there is a serious mismatch between the output of the CD player at 1.9V and the input of my preamp at 125mV. Maybe I should go back to some inline attenuators.

[Primalsea]

In line attenuators should help tame the brash sound you are getting but at the end of the day if your CDP was designed to sound that way you're stuck unless you want to undertake major modifications.

[Haselsh1]

Hmmm... yes, I've just substituted a £120 Sony CD/SACD player for the Chinese Original and although the Sony is thick and congested in comparison, it has none of the horrible graininess and coarseness of the Original. Also, the Sony is much much quieter than the Original and a much better match for the level of my vinyl. I guess I now have to look at using the digital output of the Sony into a separate DAC although I could use the digital output of the Original as I would stand to lose a lot of money on that unit if I sold it.

[DSJR]

Have a word with Audiocom. it may just be a little that needs to be done, such as clocks etc, to turn your CD player into something rather good...

Other than that, look out for a good used Rega Planet, Apollo or even the Jupiter/IO and Saturn players. very musical, they get the fundamentals right and apparently there isn't a huge amount to do on the Planet as the basic design was so good.....

[Primalsea]

My perception of the Chinese CD players (and quite a lot of other CDP's too for that matter) is that many of them are nothing more than implementations the D/A chip manufacturers evaluation board circuits. ie, nothing special, just a series of modules bolted together. The ones you pay a bit more for are the ones that use more bespoke components.

Quite often if you put one of these next to something that has actually been designed ground up from scratch........................................

But saying all that buying a separate DAC could well give you a result you are happy with.

[Stratmangler]

You might find that the Sony has rather better implementation of the S/PDIF and Toslink interfaces.

Chris:)

[Haselsh1]

I've just done a bit of an experiment after making sure the Croft pre/power was well warmed up. The Original CD player is 24/192 and has two switchable filters built in so rather than use the soft filter as I always do, I selected the sharp filter. On playing the first Paloma Faith CD the louder and more telling passages now have much more clarity and are nowhere near as confused and coarse. Even playing the Seal track Vision there is much more clarity to his voice and sibilants.
I hope I haven't been making a complete cockup of this for the last three years but it would appear so. I always thought a more rounded sound using the soft filter would be better than an overly sharp sound but I guess there is much more precision and clarity using the sharp filter. As I do not understand the mechanics behind any of this I cannot really comment any further than what I have just said but for me, vinyl is just so much easier...lol

[trailer]

I was looking at this a while ago and had a scout around at a tube buffer.
I enquired in the Drawing Board but no one responded.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260556853293&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI

Good idea or more Chinese tat?

[Stratmangler]

Can you defeat the upsampling business ?
It might be worth giving that a go if you can.

Chris:)

[Primalsea]

The filter thing does make sense to me. I find that out of band noise can have an effect on audible frequencies. From the info you gave it would seem that the sharper filters is cutting this out.

Buffers can be a great idea but only if the have a high input impedance and low output impedance across the whole audible band

[Haselsh1]

I notice it is 220VAC and so won't work in the UK. I had this issue with my Original CD player and had to have it modified to work on UK mains at a cost of around 68 quid. Other than that I have no idea what this thing would actually do.
(This is with reference to the tube buffer mentioned above)

[Haselsh1]

I need to give this sharper filter a decent airing and will have a really good session in the next week. I have no idea how I would change the upsampling as the only control I have is over the two selectable filters.

All I know is that in the past the upper mid and treble have been very coarse and grainy compared to my vinyl playback of the same album. I tried the sharper filter today and my immediate impression was one of clarity and a better, more finely etched sound.

If I find that this is all nonsense at least I have the option of buying a separate DAC for around 250 quid and using the Original as a transport. It uses a Philips VAM-12 and CD-7 servo system so is fairly good in that respect. It also has an optical and coax output.

[Haselsh1]

OK so I've just had a decent listen using Ozric Tentacles 'Become The Other' with it's solid pumping basslines and beautifully airy and atmospheric reverb. Using either the soft or sharp filter setting there is to me, no difference. The gorgeously airy and spacey reverb is powdery and coarse when compared to my vinyl replay which has such a beautiful sparkle.

It is looking as though this is a characteristic of the CD player after all and I guess this leaves me with no option other than getting a separate DAC. The cheap and cheerful Sony that I used as a stopgap a couple of days ago showed a much better treble and upper mid than the Chinese Original. The Sony though was only 120 quid and was very thick and congested in the low and mid.

Back to the drawing board...:scratch:

[leo]

I am a hardcore vinyl fan but would love some help to get to understand more about CD. I have a Chinese Original 2008F HDCD player modified for UK mains which uses a PCM 1792 and PCM 1732. It also uses an OPA2604 and an OPA627. What does this all mean and how does this stack up against the competition...? Keep it simple please, I'm used to counterweights and tracking force...!

Naming a few parts which are used in the CDP doesn't tell you everything especially how good it performs, without seeing the unit close and either working the circuitry out or better still looking at a service manual containing the schematics your just guessing.

[Rowemeister]

The two opamps mentioned at the begining of the thread to me are not well matched at all. The OPA2604 is a very bright in your face sound that has OTT upper mids and harsh treble and the OPA627 majors on bass and upper smoothness. The 627 used to be the best opamp around a few years ago but for me it has been surpassed with much more linear and of course natural sounding opamps.

As a test I would fit some LM4562 (LME49720) for the OPA6204 (dual output opamps) and see what that does for the sound. Then you can try the single output versions to replace the OPA627 (LME49710). A cheap upgrade and it may set you off on the right path.

Some people find these opamps a little sterile but I have found they take a few weeks to burn in and are also affected by the capacitors decoupling them.

Brent

[Covenant]

Why not try the easy route? Order a Standac and try it with your Sony. Give it a couple of days and if there is not a big improvement musically send it back.
Lots of upgrades routes once you are basically happy.

[Haselsh1]

Why not try the easy route? Order a Standac and try it with your Sony. Give it a couple of days and if there is not a big improvement musically send it back.
Lots of upgrades routes once you are basically happy.


Covenant, by a Standac are you referring to a Beresford Caiman for example...? Unfortunately I have spent so long engrossed in vinyl replay I am so far out of touch with digital. I do know though that my now Croft pre/power is so transparent I cannot any longer stand the coarseness of the CD player. Although the player has excellent detail and power with a very gutsy presentation, the upper mid and treble is very coasre and grainy when the going gets rough and it just gets so confusing I'd be better off switching back to vinyl.