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steve-z
15-11-2017, 19:25
I’m currently using a Nagaoka MP110 on my 2016 Rega Planar 3, the output is then fed to a Schiit Mani phono stage, the combination considering the relatively modest cost gives a pretty decent sound quality. Having been a previous user, over a period of 30+ years, of moving coil cartridges I am hankering after getting another. The Mani has gain settings to accommodate MM and MC cartridges but I’m a little concerned over MC compatibility as the input impedance on the MC input is only 47ohms, considerably lower than the norm used by other manufacturers of 100-200ohms. From what I’ve read online the load impedance for a good match should be 10-20x the cartridges coil impedance, as most MCs coil impedance is around 10-12ohms 47ohms is too low, enough to mess up the frequency response at HF making for a sharp or brittle sound. I emailed Schiit with my concerns and tbh they could not give me any constructive help at all particularly when I asked why they set the value so low. If I get a moving coil I do not want to change the phono stage again. What I really want to know, is it possible to add some extra impedance to the preamp without going into the preamp circuitry. I remember some time ago seeing some loading plugs but I think they were to add capacitance loading not impedance, is there anything similar to add impedance ?


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farflungstar
15-11-2017, 20:59
I have some beautifully made plugs for resistance should you be interested..

Adey

steve-z
15-11-2017, 21:07
I have some beautifully made plugs for resistance should you be interested..

Adey

Sounds good, any idea what I’d need to raise 47ohms to 100-150, is it just a question of adding 50-100ohms more ?


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farflungstar
15-11-2017, 21:10
I'm at work at the minute but will check the plugs for you in the morning. They can be piggybacked to give many different values and are exceptional quality.

Adey

steve-z
15-11-2017, 21:17
I'm at work at the minute but will check the plugs for you in the morning. They can be piggybacked to give many different values and are exceptional quality.

Adey

Thanks that would be great.


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Jazid
15-11-2017, 23:35
Thanks that would be great.


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkThere's a lot of MC carts that prefer low impedance loading. What are you considering?
My limited experience suggests to me that a low input impedance to the phono stage should reduce the HF rise rather than the opposite, so I'd be inclined to try before you buy any loading plugs: they may not be necessary.

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steve-z
16-11-2017, 00:03
I’m looking at the Audio Technica ATF2 or ATF7, AT state a minimum of 100ohms input impedance in their spec sheet. According to some articles I’ve read online the low impedance does cause a droop in upper mid to lower treble but then a large rise at HF causing a sharp or brittle sound.


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helma
16-11-2017, 00:29
You can't rise the impedance with plugs. So if your preamp has 47 ohms, that's the highest you can get without going inside. Plugs will only lower it.

I think 5x cart impedance is usually still fine, but going lower from that it starts to go downhill. But only way to really know for sure is to try, and some people seem to prefer the sound you get running the cartridge into "too low" impedance. At some point you start to loose output because more current is flowing through the cartridge and that will also affect it in other ways, IME soundstage starts to collapse among other things.

steve-z
16-11-2017, 01:00
You can't rise the impedance with plugs. So if your preamp has 47 ohms, that's the highest you can get without going inside. Plugs will only lower it.

I think 5x cart impedance is usually still fine, but going lower from that it starts to go downhill. But only way to really know for sure is to try, and some people seem to prefer the sound you get running the cartridge into "too low" impedance. At some point you start to loose output because more current is flowing through the cartridge and that will also affect it in other ways, IME soundstage starts to collapse among other things.

Sounds like I’m screwed then :-( Can’t understand why Schiit have to be different from Project, Cambridge Audio etc that all load at 100ohms. Even at 5x the coil impedance (12ohms) it’s still on the low side and the last thing I want is a droop in the mid treble.
Can’t really afford to spend £200 and it possibly be a waste just to try it and see if it works.

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Firebottle
16-11-2017, 08:06
Hi Steve, there is another option, that is to get the internal resistors changed to 100 ohms.

I could do this for you if you cover postage both ways, it's a small job to do.

steve-z
16-11-2017, 09:07
Hi Steve, there is another option, that is to get the internal resistors changed to 100 ohms.

I could do this for you if you cover postage both ways, it's a small job to do.

Thanks very much for the offer, sounds like the only and best option, PM me with your details.
Cheers
Steve


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farflungstar
16-11-2017, 09:08
I bought them from a fellow member, this is the original thread. Not sure if I'm breaking rules.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftheartofsound%2Enet%2Ff orum%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D51615&share_tid=51615&share_fid=4177&share_type=t

[IC]: RTJ Phono equalisers - experimental resistance/capacitance sets

steve-z
16-11-2017, 09:15
I bought them from a fellow member, this is the original thread. Not sure if I'm breaking rules.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftheartofsound%2Enet%2Ff orum%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D51615&share_tid=51615&share_fid=4177&share_type=t

[IC]: RTJ Phono equalisers - experimental resistance/capacitance sets

Do they add series resistance? as another member suggested adding resistance in parallel will reduce the value not increase it. 50-100 ohms extra would be ideal, are any of the set suitable ?


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farflungstar
16-11-2017, 09:18
I'm not sure whether it's series or parallel to be honest - but I noticed no degradation in quality when I played with them and the Vida/Hashimoto.

Will check values and get back.

farflungstar
16-11-2017, 09:31
The 3 pairs add, 30k, 75k, 150k - with combinations as per the chart.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/a0b6f1288d1e9969e620053096f8ef6a.jpg

steve-z
16-11-2017, 09:34
The 3 pairs add, 30k, 75k, 150k - with combinations as per the chart.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/a0b6f1288d1e9969e620053096f8ef6a.jpg

Doesn't look like they will work for me as the values are much too high, but thanks anyhow :-)


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RothwellAudio
16-11-2017, 09:37
Firstly, putting resistance in parallel with the input can only reduce the input impedance. You can raise the input impedance with a series resistor but I wouldn't recommend that because you will be attenuating the signal going into the phonostage and degrading the signal-to-noise ratio.

Secondly, having a low input impedance is unlikely to make the cartridge sound shrill. If anything, it's more likely to make it sound dull. More likely still is that the sound will be fine at 47 ohms. Yes, it's a bit lower than is common but it will be fine with many LOMCs. Just choose a cartridge with a source impedance less than 12 ohms and you will be ok, and there are lots to choose from.

BTW, the idea of changing an internal resistor might work, but that will depend on the circuit. With simple op-amp circuits it probably would work, but it might be a completely different type of circuit. Also, if it uses surface mount components it could be an extremely fiddly job. Some surface mount components are hardly any bigger than a grain of sand!

steve-z
16-11-2017, 09:46
Firstly, putting resistance in parallel with the input can only reduce the input impedance. You can raise the input impedance with a series resistor but I wouldn't recommend that because you will be attenuating the signal going into the phonostage and degrading the signal-to-noise ratio.

Secondly, having a low input impedance is unlikely to make the cartridge sound shrill. If anything, it's more likely to make it sound dull. More likely still is that the sound will be fine at 47 ohms. Yes, it's a bit lower than is common but it will be fine with many LOMCs. Just choose a cartridge with a source impedance less than 12 ohms and you will be ok, and there are lots to choose from.

BTW, the idea of changing an internal resistor might work, but that will depend on the circuit. With simple op-amp circuits it probably would work, but it might be a completely different type of circuit. Also, if it uses surface mount components it could be an extremely fiddly job. Some surface mount components are hardly any bigger than a grain of sand!

Thanks for the info, I'm just puzzled why Schiit have set their input impedance lower than everyone else. The one review of the Mani on YouTube I've seen concluded that the MC performance of the Mani was inferior to its performance on MM which they rate very highly, my worry is that changing to a cartridge which is not optimal on MC will actually give me worse performance than my Nagaoka MP110. Both AT cartridges I'm considering are 12ohm coil impedance.


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Firebottle
16-11-2017, 10:14
BTW, the idea of changing an internal resistor might work, but that will depend on the circuit. With simple op-amp circuits it probably would work, but it might be a completely different type of circuit. Also, if it uses surface mount components it could be an extremely fiddly job. Some surface mount components are hardly any bigger than a grain of sand!

Andrew I'm familiar with the build and circuit (not exact details) and I am sure it would be a straight swap out of surface mount resistors.
I have a good stock of these.

Steve, pm sent.

RothwellAudio
16-11-2017, 10:18
Thanks for the info, I'm just puzzled why Schiit have set their input impedance lower than everyone else.

There's an almost trivially simple way to "design" a preamp for a LOMC, and that's to use an opamp. The resistor which defines the load impedance in such a circuit can be almost anything, and it's often set at about 100 ohms.
However, if you design a circuit using discrete transistors it isn't so simple and the available range for the input impedance could be constrained by other elements of the circuit such as resistors used to bias the transistors. I don't know the details of the Schiit circuit so can't offer a more detailed explanation.

RothwellAudio
16-11-2017, 10:21
Andrew I'm familiar with the build and circuit (not exact details) and I am sure it would be a straight swap out of surface mount resistors.
Sorry, no offence intended - I just baulk at the thought of hand-working surface mount resistors. I avoid it if possible :rolleyes:

steve-z
16-11-2017, 14:40
I opened up the Mani for a look inside, the components on the circuit board are really tiny so I don’t think removing and replacing the input resistors is really a viable possibility. I’ve sent a message to Audio Technica UK to query the use of the ATF2 or ATF7 into a impedance of 47ohms, as yet I’ve not had any response.


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RothwellAudio
16-11-2017, 14:51
I’ve sent a message to Audio Technica UK to query the use of the ATF2 or ATF7 into a impedance of 47ohms...
With a 47 ohm load there will be a 2dB reduction in signal amplitude compared to the open circuit voltage and a 1dB reduction in signal amplitude compared to the signal amplitude into a 100 ohm load, ie not a lot to worry about.
As for any change to the frequency response, I doubt there will be any (because the source impedance, particularly inductance, is so low). No doubt others on the forum will disagree and swear that small changes in load impedance produce audible results. In my experience the load impedance isn't that significant.

steve-z
16-11-2017, 15:01
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/0f9f32cce288eb138d608eb66b432883.jpg

Is this graph rubbish then ?
I certainly wouldn’t be happy with either of the lower 2 response curves

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RothwellAudio
16-11-2017, 15:11
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/0f9f32cce288eb138d608eb66b432883.jpg

Is this graph rubbish then ?
Not necessarily complete rubbish, but maybe not applicable to the AT cartridges the OP is considering.
The graph shows in general terms what happens when a source with a resistive and inductive output impedance is fed into different load impedances. However, with a resistance of only 12 ohms and an inductance of only 25uH the curves won't be anything like as bad as the ones in the graph. I'll check the figures and get back to you.

RothwellAudio
16-11-2017, 15:20
This page illustrates what's going on with an MC cartridge and loading:
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html
However, his examples use cartridges with 500mH, 50mH and 5mH inductance. Most LOMCs have much lower inductance. The Audio Technica cartridge has an inductance of only 25 micro Henries which is 200 times less than the lowest inductance in the Hagerman examples.

Yes, the graph shows the correct form of the frequency response curves but putting in realistic values gives much flatter curves than those.

Firebottle
16-11-2017, 15:35
I opened up the Mani for a look inside, the components on the circuit board are really tiny so I don’t think removing and replacing the input resistors is really a viable possibility.

It certainly is possible, just fiddly.

The circuit uses a low noise op-amp as the input stage so the loading will be just in parallel with the input.

Trying the unit with whatever cartridge you get is the best approach, the resistor change is still on the cards should you wish.

steve-z
16-11-2017, 15:36
This page illustrates what's going on with an MC cartridge and loading:
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html
However, his examples use cartridges with 500mH, 50mH and 5mH inductance. Most LOMCs have much lower inductance. The Audio Technica cartridge has an inductance of only 25 micro Henries which is 200 times less than the lowest inductance in the Hagerman examples.

Yes, the graph shows the correct form of the frequency response curves but putting in realistic values gives much flatter curves than those.

With all the variables it looks as though it’s almost impossible to predict the outcome with any particular MC cartridge. The Youtube video I saw when a MC was tried with the Mani was with a Dynavector xx2 cartridge, this is a £1k cartridge, it also has a low coil impedance of 6ohms, so should work better into the Mani’s 47ohms input impedance, unfortunately the reviewer did not consider the combination to be optimal.


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steve-z
16-11-2017, 15:40
Trying the unit with whatever cartridge you get is the best approach, the resistor change is still on the cards should you wish.

Yes it is if money was no object, but making a purchase that doesn’t work out can be a costly mistake, that’s what I’m trying to avoid, unfortunately you can’t “try before you buy” with cartridges.


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RothwellAudio
16-11-2017, 15:47
With all the variables it looks as though it’s almost impossible to predict the outcome with any particular MC cartridge.
Not at all. The only variables are the source resistance, source inductance and load resistance. 12 ohms and 25 uH is feck all and will give you a flat frequency response to within 1dB well over 20kHz. This is mathematical and factual, not youtube-generated rumour.

RothwellAudio
16-11-2017, 15:53
OK, I've just put the numbers for the Audio Technica into the software and the difference between 47 ohms and 100 ohms is negligible - less than 0.1dB at 20kHz and both as flat as a pancake. The only difference is 1dB drop in amplitude across the board.

steve-z
16-11-2017, 16:00
OK, I've just put the numbers for the Audio Technica into the software and the difference between 47 ohms and 100 ohms is negligible - less than 0.1dB at 20kHz and both as flat as a pancake. The only difference is 1dB drop in amplitude across the board.

So that graph I posted WAS complete rubbish, now begs the question why does the MC section of the Mani appear to be inferior to the MM section.


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struth
16-11-2017, 16:02
mc on my mani sounded quite good with my ortophon

steve-z
16-11-2017, 16:03
mc on my mani sounded quite good with my ortophon

Which ortofon model was it ?


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struth
16-11-2017, 16:04
mc25 fl

Bigman80
16-11-2017, 16:11
In all fairness, the price you've paid gives you an acceptable MM stage, to expect it to be as good in MC is unrealistic. It takes a lot more effort to design and build a MC to be as good. If you want to REALLY hear the money's worth your spending, I'd change the phono stage before the cartridge. Just my 2p

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steve-z
16-11-2017, 16:16
In all fairness, the price you've paid gives you an acceptable MM stage, to expect it to be as good in MC is unrealistic. It takes a lot more effort to design and build a MC to be as good. If you want to REALLY hear the money's worth your spending, I'd change the phono stage before the cartridge. Just my 2p

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I think if a manufacturer produces a preamp with MM & MC sections a buyer has a right to expect parity in the performance of both stages or there is no point to having both together in one box.


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Bigman80
16-11-2017, 16:20
I think if a manufacturer produces a preamp with MM & MC sections a buyer has a right to expect parity in the performance of both stages or there is no point to having both together in one box.


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkWhilst I agree in principle in that it'd be nice! It just doesn't work that way. Ask anyone who designs phonostages. A good MM stage with SUT or Headamp beats any MC phonostage according to most people.

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struth
16-11-2017, 16:20
In all fairness, the price you've paid gives you an acceptable MM stage, to expect it to be as good in MC is unrealistic. It takes a lot more effort to design and build a MC to be as good. If you want to REALLY hear the money's worth your spending, I'd change the phono stage before the cartridge. Just my 2p

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indeed. its a decent mc for the money considering you get a very good mm. you need to spend a fair bit more to improve it. I head amp with the schiit might be your best option

hifi_dave
16-11-2017, 16:21
You might "expect parity" but you don't always get it, especially with lower priced phono stages. One of the best and least expensive phono stages which gives excellent results with MM and MC is the Rothwell Rialto. Great value.

You can buy a Rialto for less than the price of a MC step up and I would suggest give better results than the Schitt and step up.

Bigman80
16-11-2017, 17:10
These a Denon just popped up on the Private Exhibitions page. That's usable through your Shiit in MM.

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steve-z
16-11-2017, 17:24
These a Denon just popped up on the Private Exhibitions page. That's usable through your Shiit in MM.

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If you’re talking about a DL110 I had one at the start of the year but I sold it on when I bought the Nagaoka MP110. The Denon is a pretty good cartridge but how it performs depends on the genre of music you listen to, if you like solo instruments, string quartets etc it’s a lovely cartridge, but give it some heavy rock or electronica and it just doesn’t cut it for me, also from new it takes ages to break in, at least 50 hours ime although it’s reasonable after about 20, a great stylus which tracks well and should last well, just not my cup of tea.



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Bigman80
16-11-2017, 18:13
If you’re talking about a DL110 I had one at the start of the year but I sold it on when I bought the Nagaoka MP110. The Denon is a pretty good cartridge but how it performs depends on the genre of music you listen to, if you like solo instruments, string quartets etc it’s a lovely cartridge, but give it some heavy rock or electronica and it just doesn’t cut it for me, also from new it takes ages to break in, at least 50 hours ime although it’s reasonable after about 20, a great stylus which tracks well and should last well, just not my cup of tea.



Sent from my iPad using TapatalkFair enough. If you've experienced it that's the best judgement.

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steve-z
16-11-2017, 18:54
You might "expect parity" but you don't always get it, especially with lower priced phono stages. One of the best and least expensive phono stages which gives excellent results with MM and MC is the Rothwell Rialto. Great value.

You can buy a Rialto for less than the price of a MC step up and I would suggest give better results than the Schitt and step up.

Tbh Dave I’ve never heard of the Rothwell Rialto, Reliant Rialto :-) Yes!
Internet search just done shows it has an excellent reputation , the reason I’ve never come across it is probably the price, I’m afraid being a pensioner I have to baulk at paying out £380 for a phono stage, no matter how good, it’s hardly budget priced, the last 3 phono stages I’ve owned, namely the CA640p, Graham Slee Gramamp 2 and the Mani are all below £150, although I believe the Slee is now £180.
I’m beginning to wonder whether I’d be better advised to try to pick up a pair of Ortofon T-5 transformers and using them into the Mani’s MM stage, quite hard to find these days, wish I’d have bought a bucketful when they were £20 a pair.


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Bigman80
16-11-2017, 18:59
Tbh Dave I’ve never heard of the Rothwell Rialto, Reliant Rialto :-) Yes!
Internet search just done shows it has an excellent reputation , the reason I’ve never come across it is probably the price, I’m afraid being a pensioner I have to baulk at paying out £380 for a phono stage, no matter how good, it’s hardly budget priced, the last 3 phono stages I’ve owned, namely the CA640p, Graham Slee Gramamp 2 and the Mani are all below £150, although I believe the Slee is now £180.
I’m beginning to wonder whether I’d be better advised to try to pick up a pair of Ortofon T-5 transformers and using them into the Mani’s MM stage, quite hard to find these days, wish I’d have bought a bucketful when they were £20 a pair.


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkTo be fair to the Mani, it's reputation is excellent so going for a headamp is probably gonna be the best option. Any good with a soldering iron? There's plenty of Hong Kong sellers on eBay with very very cheap parts.

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walpurgis
16-11-2017, 18:59
I’m beginning to wonder whether I’d be better advised to try to pick up a pair of Ortofon T-5 transformers

I wouldn't bother. They and the Sony HA-T10 version are not very good. Most budget SUT's are rubbish.

struth
16-11-2017, 19:02
the Ortofon T-5's are not that good imo. tough getting suts o9f any quality for under 200 used. The firebottle mm/mc in the sales section would do you but its over budget. I had one once and they are very good, especially the mc imho

steve-z
16-11-2017, 19:06
I wouldn't bother. They and the Sony HA-T10 version are not very good. Most budget SUT's are rubbish.

A friend of mine has had a pair of T5s for almost 30 years paired with an ATF5 and it always sounded superb to my ears playing into his Rogers valve integrated amp.


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steve-z
16-11-2017, 19:11
To be fair to the Mani, it's reputation is excellent so going for a headamp is probably gonna be the best option. Any good with a soldering iron? There's plenty of Hong Kong sellers on eBay with very very cheap parts.

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Are you referring to a kit of some kind, and yes I’m pretty good with a soldering iron.


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Bigman80
16-11-2017, 19:11
Are you referring to a kit of some kind, and yes I’m pretty good with a soldering iron.


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkI'll post you a link.

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Bigman80
16-11-2017, 19:13
I'll post you a link.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalkhttps://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 282652959312

These are excellent. Just need the power supply which I'm sure Alan (Firebottle) can recommend, a cheap case and a couple of RCAs.

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steve-z
16-11-2017, 19:18
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 282652959312

These are excellent. Just need the power supply which I'm sure Alan (Firebottle) can recommend, a cheap case and a couple of RCAs.

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Interesting and very cheap, thanks.


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Bigman80
16-11-2017, 19:18
No worries. They are good as I say, very cheap. Can't buy all the components for the price of the whole thing lol

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walpurgis
16-11-2017, 19:46
A friend of mine has had a pair of T5s for almost 30 years paired with an ATF5 and it always sounded superb to my ears playing into his Rogers valve integrated amp.

Suit yourself, I thought you were soliciting an opinion. I've used them and compared them to better quality items, so I know their limitations.

steve-z
16-11-2017, 19:52
Suit yourself, I thought you were soliciting an opinion. I've used them and compared them to better quality items, so I know their limitations.

It is quite a while since I heard his setup so perceptions may well have changed with time, what was good then may not be now.


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Spider
16-11-2017, 20:15
The mani is a very capable MM phono stage. It can do MC but SQ won't be as good.
Buy a head amp or SUT and use that with Mani in MM mode I'm sure results would be very good.

Firebottle
16-11-2017, 20:21
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 282652959312

These are excellent. Just need the power supply which I'm sure Alan (Firebottle) can recommend, a cheap case and a couple of RCAs.

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The price is certainly good but I think it would be disappointingly noisy if used as an MC head amp.
The op-amp used in the Mani is much lower noise.

Bigman80
16-11-2017, 20:23
The price is certainly good but I think it would be disappointingly noisy if used as an MC head amp.
The op-amp used in the Mani is much lower noise.Really?

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RothwellAudio
17-11-2017, 09:22
I’m beginning to wonder whether I’d be better advised to try to pick up a pair of Ortofon T-5 transformers and using them into the Mani’s MM stage, quite hard to find these days, wish I’d have bought a bucketful when they were £20 a pair.


I wouldn't bother. They and the Sony HA-T10 version are not very good. Most budget SUT's are rubbish.


the Ortofon T-5's are not that good imo. tough getting suts of any quality for under 200 used.
My experience of Ortofon T-5s is that they were very good.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 282652959312

These are excellent.


The price is certainly good but I think it would be disappointingly noisy if used as an MC head amp.
The op-amp used in the Mani is much lower noise.
Yes, that kit doesn't look excellent at all to me. The NE5532 is a great audio op-amp but isn't really suitable for LOMCs. I would be extremely surprised if it performed better than the Shiit.

Back to the OP's original concerns - whether or not the Shiit's 47 ohm input impedance is too low for an Audio Technica cartridge: no, I don't think it is. Whether or not the Shiit's mc performance is good enough, I can't say - but the OP's doubts are based on opinions found online. I'm sure it's possible to find negative opinions online about absolutely anything.
I would suggest the OP gets the AT cartridge he fancies and tries it with the Shiit, then worry about SUTs or headamps or alternative phonostages if it doesn't sound good. If the problem is the inadequacy of the Shiit, that will apply whatever MC cartridge he buys.

Bigman80
17-11-2017, 09:29
My experience of Ortofon T-5s is that they were very good.



Yes, that kit doesn't look excellent at all to me. The NE5532 is a great audio op-amp but isn't really suitable for LOMCs. I would be extremely surprised if it performed better than the Shiit.

Back to the OP's original concerns - whether or not the Shiit's 47 ohm input impedance is too low for an Audio Technica cartridge: no, I don't think it is. Whether or not the Shiit's mc performance is good enough, I can't say - but the OP's doubts are based on opinions found online. I'm sure it's possible to find negative opinions online about absolutely anything.
I would suggest the OP gets the AT cartridge he fancies and tries it with the Shiit, then worry about SUTs or headamps or alternative phonostages if it doesn't sound good. If the problem is the inadequacy of the Shiit, that will apply whatever MC cartridge he buys.I'm sure I've seen that board utilised in a MM stage enable MC Compatibility. It may have had a different Opamp. The one I heard was very good.

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RothwellAudio
17-11-2017, 09:36
The NE5532 is a dual op-amp. If you use one half per channel you only have one op-amp to give you all the gain you need for a LOMC - and there isn't really enough to give you that much gain and do the RIAA curve and have some gain left for feedback. On top of that, NE5532s are too noisy for an LOMC.

Firebottle
17-11-2017, 09:48
Excellent post #59 Andrew.

^
I've used a similar board as a donor pcb for a head amp circuit but (of course) with op-amp and circuit value changes.

Too right about the noise, sorry did I say noise :lol:

RothwellAudio
17-11-2017, 10:03
I've used a similar board as a donor pcb for a head amp circuit but (of course) with op-amp and circuit value changes.

Too right about the noise, sorry did I say noise :lol:

Yes. The NE5532 has been around since the 1970s and if it was so easy to use one for LOMC duties it would have become the norm back then. However, as Alan says, it's too noisy for an LOMC. Many designers grappled with the problem of getting a good signal-to-noise ratio from discrete transistor circuits and many audiophiles stuck to using step-up transformers. Nobody used an NE5532 and achieved satisfactory performance. Certainly nobody was daft enough to try to do a whole LOMC phonostage with just one opamp. Yes, it would work - but it certainly wouldn't be high fidelity.

Bigman80
17-11-2017, 10:11
Bit of further information. That board I recommended has a different Opamp and is modded to accommodate the new opamp. Not a straight forward as I thought. [emoji848]



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steve-z
17-11-2017, 11:34
I’ve just had an email from a friend of mine who has virtually the same vinyl setup as myself MP110/Mani/Rega, his Rega though is the RP6 as opposed to my Planar 3. In fact he has 2 RP6s so is very able to do direct cartridge comparisons. He has just fitted a MC to one of his decks, a fairly well used Dynavector Karat Ruby 23R. In the email he states that although the setup sounds good it does not beat the MP110 and he considers the combination with the 23R to be a little lacking, he didn’t say in what way so I’ll need to question him further for more details and perhaps get him to post his findings on this thread.


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Phil Bishop
17-11-2017, 12:08
I’ve just had an email from a friend of mine who has virtually the same vinyl setup as myself MP110/Mani/Rega, his Rega though is the RP6 as opposed to my Planar 3. In fact he has 2 RP6s so is very able to do direct cartridge comparisons. He has just fitted a MC to one of his decks, a fairly well used Dynavector Karat Ruby 23R. In the email he states that although the setup sounds good it does not beat the MP110 and he considers the combination with the 23R to be a little lacking, he didn’t say in what way so I’ll need to question him further for more details and perhaps get him to post his findings on this thread.


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Not quite Steve :-)

Firstly, I don't know the use on the DV but it has a Weiss re-tip and came from a friend who ditched vinyl a long time ago so for all I know it may have very low hours. At 1.4 g or so it tracks perfectly throughout a demanding record side where I often get IGD - not with this, so I can only assume it's still pretty good :)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4523/38447767392_bd1449974e_k.jpg

It sounds FANTASTIC to be honest through the Schiit but given the gain settings required there is a fair amount of background hiss in my system, only noticeable when one is not playing records.

The question is how good would it sound with a dedicated MC or different MM/MC phono stage? As you know, I have a NJC phono stage which I love but it only does MM. So, I'm thinking seriously of buying NJC's SUT.

All this is not to detract from the Nagaoka MP-110 which I have on my other RP6 which I consider outstanding for the price through either phono stage.

I love all the discussion you get on Forums about cartridges as ultimately it all boils down to personal taste. I have tried all the usual AT, Rega, Ortofon, etc reasonably priced MM staples, some several times, and with the exception of the humble Rega Carbon have never really bonded with any of them. The Nag-110 seems to tick all the boxes for little money.

Personally, I think if you do decide the go the MC route you might soon start wondering if the Schiit is holding you back?

Hope that makes sense?

Cheers

Phil

Firebottle
17-11-2017, 12:24
... if you do decide the go the MC route you might soon start wondering if the Schiit is holding you back?

Although the Mani is very good for the money I think this will be the case.

steve-z
17-11-2017, 12:42
I get the feeling that if I’m seriously going to go the MC route I may need to bite the bullet and start saving up my pennies for a Rothwell Rialto :-). I don’t suppose they do a “try before you buy” scheme like Graham Slee does ?


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Barry
17-11-2017, 14:52
I get the feeling that if I’m seriously going to go the MC route I may need to bite the bullet and start saving up my pennies for a Rothwell Rialto :-). I don’t suppose they do a “try before you buy” scheme like Graham Slee does ?



Perhaps you could ask Rothwell Audio via a PM.

Anyway to whet your appetite, here is a favourable review of the Rothwell 'Rialto' phonostage by HFN in 2014: http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article/rothwell-audio-rialto-pound;380/20338

steve-z
17-11-2017, 15:37
Perhaps you could ask Rothwell Audio via a PM.

Anyway to whet your appetite, here is a favourable review of the Rothwell 'Rialto' phonostage by HFN in 2014: http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article/rothwell-audio-rialto-pound;380/20338

Thanks for that Barry but when I did a search earlier that was one of the ones that came up, all of the ones I’ve read up on are all very positive.
I think I’ve got a bit of a plan formulated, first sell on my spare cartridge, a very low hours AT120EB which should fetch me about £50-£60 on ebay and put the money towards an ATF2 or ATF7, see how the Mani suits it, if it’s as good as or better than the Nagaoka MP110, sell on the Nag and stick with that combination for a while and then try and save up for a Rialto, may take quite a while though.


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RothwellAudio
17-11-2017, 15:52
You might "expect parity" but you don't always get it, especially with lower priced phono stages. One of the best and least expensive phono stages which gives excellent results with MM and MC is the Rothwell Rialto. Great value.

You can buy a Rialto for less than the price of a MC step up and I would suggest give better results than the Schitt and step up.
Thanks for the vote of confidence - much appreciated :)

I get the feeling that if I’m seriously going to go the MC route I may need to bite the bullet and start saving up my pennies for a Rothwell Rialto :-). I don’t suppose they do a “try before you buy” scheme like Graham Slee does ?
Hi-Fi Dave is a dealer for Rothwell and has the Rialto in stock. I'm not sure if he does a "try before you buy" scheme.

There is one other possibility: you could use a headamp to raise the output of your chosen LOMC to MM level, then feed the signal into your Shiit. I make one called the Headspace.
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/headspace_mc_headamp.html

A forum member acquired one very recently and posted his findings on another thread.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?54873-SUT-Advice-Ortofon-ST-7-or-Rothwell-MC/page2
post #13

hifi_dave
17-11-2017, 15:53
Personally, I don't think the Schiit is good enough to justify spending money on a MC step-up/x'mer. I believe you would get better results with Rothwell Rialto MM/MC phono stage or the new Rega Fono MC.

Firebottle
17-11-2017, 17:18
I get the feeling that if I’m seriously going to go the MC route I may need to bite the bullet and start saving up my pennies for a Rothwell Rialto :-). I don’t suppose they do a “try before you buy” scheme like Graham Slee does ?


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Steve you are welcome to try my Firebottle OTP Mk2 MC/MM phono stage with no obligation, as and when you have an MC, to see how things sit in the scheme of things.
:)

Phil Bishop
17-11-2017, 19:00
Steve you are welcome to try my Firebottle OTP Mk2 MC/MM phono stage with no obligation, as and when you have an MC, to see how things sit in the scheme of things.
:)

Forums at their best, there you go Steve :)

I also know Dave (Radlett) and he's a great guy to deal with if you want to go the Rega or Rothwell route.

However, I still think the Nagaoka MP-110/Schiit is a fantastic combination for the money.

That said, having finally set up the Dynavector MC on one of my RP6s I now realise why folks get so addicted to record players and vinyl and end up spending fortunes. The sound is utterly beguiling - I can't stop listening to it :)

Funny old game......

Cheers

Phil

steve-z
18-11-2017, 01:16
Just had another email from a knowledgeable friend who has recommended that I perhaps consider the new Rega Fono MC which he has auditioned in conjunction with an admittedly top flight front end of a Rega Aria/Planar 6, the combination he considered to be exceptional, thoughts ?


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steve-z
18-11-2017, 18:55
Well I’ve taken the plunge and ordered the ATF7, any change of phono stage is going to have to wait until the New Year which will give me plenty of time to break in the new cartridge, having spoken to one or two others about a possible change if the Schiit Mani doesn’t come up with the goods, consensus points strongly towards the new Rega Fono MC, thankfully I’ve been a long time customer of my local Rega dealer and many times in the past they’ve loaned me gear to try at home, so I will not have to buy blind, should be in for an interesting few weeks.


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steve-z
19-11-2017, 13:15
Got a message from Phil Bishop this morning with further feedback on his DV/Mani combination and particularly how pleased he is with it, he also mentioned that he had some specs for the cartridge which advised that it has a coil impedance of 35ohms and 100microhenrys inductance which according to current wisdom would make it more of a mismatch with the Mani than the 12ohm impedance of the ATF7 I’m getting, extremely confusing although it does lead me to suspect (hope) the ATF7/Mani combination may work better than at first thought, remains to be seen, I mean heard :-)
http://www.cieri.net/Documenti/Cataloghi/Altri%20marchi/Dynavector%20-%20Catalogue%20(1982).pdf

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RothwellAudio
20-11-2017, 12:20
...he also mentioned that he had some specs for the cartridge which advised that it has a coil impedance of 35ohms and 100microhenrys inductance which according to current wisdom would make it more of a mismatch with the Mani than the 12ohm impedance of the ATF7 I’m getting, extremely confusing although it does lead me to suspect (hope) the ATF7/Mani combination may work better than at first thought...
In my opinion people get unnecessarily wound-up about load impedances for mc cartridges. A "mis-match" is a lot more likely to simply give you a slightly lower output rather than screw-up the frequency response.
Er... but I think I've already said that. :scratch:

steve-z
21-11-2017, 16:17
Well the ATF7 arrived today (well done Royal Mail :-) earlier than expected and is now installed and aligned on my P3. I’ve not had more than a cursory listen after checking the setup with my test record. Quite surprised for a fairly low compliance cartridge it comfortably tracked all the high level lateral cuts except for the torture track and even that only mistracked slightly and probably only due to my pressing being not perfectly flat. The most important test, the tracking tests at outer, middle and inner grooves was passed, no problem.
From the very short audition I gave it before having to go out I think my misgivings about the unsuitability of the Mani can be safely discounted as I can hear nothing that makes me think it is giving anything but a very good account of itself, the comment Andrew made about the low input impedance leading to a drop in volume appears about right, using the Mani on the highest gain setting the volume is quite a bit lower than with the Nagaoka on the high MM setting. As to tonal balance it seems very neutral, comments I’d seen about it being bright and thin sounding straight out of box are not in evidence at all in fact the treble is sweeter than expected, whether that means the low loading has caused a slight treble loss I don’t really know at this point, it will be interesting to see if the balance changes at all as it gets more playing hours under its belt. No doubt I’ll be playing my vinyl to death over the next few days and will probably have a pretty good idea if it’s been worth the change, currently I see nothing to criticise atm and I can’t see me wanting to imminently change the phono stage, will report in more detail after I have had considerably more audition time.


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RothwellAudio
21-11-2017, 16:40
Sounds like everything is good :)
No doubt after a bit of running in things will get better still.

steve-z
22-11-2017, 11:28
Sounds like everything is good [emoji4]
No doubt after a bit of running in things will get better still.

The ATF7 is certainly a more detailed cartridge than the Nagaoka MP110 I think mainly by dint of the sharper stylus profile, the extra detail is certainly not there because of extra brightness which is often the case, into the Mani’s low impedance load there does appear to have been a slight depression in treble frequencies, mild but noticeable, I think though it is something I can live with for a while at least and I don’t intend to rush into changing the phono stage at this point, although with the correct input loading I realise it could probably sound a little better, as the detail levels, bass definition and overall clarity and musicality are improved I’m happy with the change, even more so if it improves with running in.
Update:-
I noticed with the AT being shallower than the Nagaoka MP110 even after removing the arm height adjuster there was still a downward tilt on the arm from pillar to stylus with the Origin Live mat in place so I’ve put back the std fit Rega wool mat which is 3x thicker than the OL mat which has corrected the tilt so vta should be closer to optimal.
After listening to a few tracks it appears the change has given a very slight lift to the treble so it was worth doing :-)

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hifi_dave
22-11-2017, 17:07
The ATF7 is a really nice cartridge for the money.

I've just taken on Audio Technica as a range and they are all very good value.

steve-z
23-11-2017, 23:22
The ATF7 is a really nice cartridge for the money.

I've just taken on Audio Technica as a range and they are all very good value.

Got mine from a guy called Dave in Dartmouth, not you by any chance ?


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hifi_dave
24-11-2017, 10:28
Not me.

cre009
24-11-2017, 11:47
The ATF7 is a really nice cartridge for the money.

I've just taken on Audio Technica as a range and they are all very good value.

How do the other ATs compare to the AT-F7. I have 2 F7s and have found them to be quite deck friendly while other cartridges don't always perform on some decks. My experience with MCs has been such that I have been reluctant to spend large because of that.

steve-z
24-11-2017, 15:37
Just in case anyone else is wanting to dip their toes in the water with a bargain moving coil there’s a brand new ATF2 on ebay (it says unwanted gift) with a starting bid of £99, no bids so far and just over 2 days to go.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audio-Technica-AT-F2-Moving-Coil-Cartridge-new/192370009592?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.M BE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49130%26meid%3D11e5c318b746476 f83fe36fc13710a48%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D 6%26sd%3D261973135714&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m2219


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hifi_dave
24-11-2017, 17:15
How do the other ATs compare to the AT-F7. I have 2 F7s and have found them to be quite deck friendly while other cartridges don't always perform on some decks. My experience with MCs has been such that I have been reluctant to spend large because of that.

Difficult to answer that as the range is large with MCs and MMs but all are very good to excellent. Basically, you get what you pay for.

None of the MCs are 'difficult' because of their reasonable compliance.

montesquieu
24-11-2017, 17:19
I have a Schitt Mani in my study system.

The MM stage is very good indeed for the money. It sounds absolutely fantastic (far better than the total cost could suggest) with a Shure SC35C on a heavy headshell.

However the MC stage, even used with a cartridge like an Ortofon SPU that should be well suited to 47 ohm, is not so good. It sounds FAR better with even a modest step-up transformer into the MM stage.

That's what I'd recommend if you decide to keep the Mani. I certainly wouldn't be buggering about getting it modified for different impedances - not worth the effort. I think what your are hearing is its inadequacies for MC.

steve-z
24-11-2017, 17:30
I have a Schitt Mani in my study system.

The MM stage is very good indeed for the money. It sounds absolutely fantastic (far better than the total cost could suggest) with a Shure SC35C on a heavy headshell.

However the MC stage, even used with a cartridge like an Ortofon SPU that should be well suited to 47 ohm, is not so good. It sounds FAR better with even a modest step-up transformer into the MM stage.

That's what I'd recommend if you decide to keep the Mani. I certainly wouldn't be buggering about getting it modified for different impedances - not worth the effort. I think what your are hearing is its inadequacies for MC.

I’ve decided against modifying because it sound pretty good as is, there is a bit of smoothing in the treble due to the low impedance loading but I can live with it for the moment until I can raise the cash for a Rega FONO MC which allows a good choice of loadings and from reviews I’ve seen sounds excellent.


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Barry
24-11-2017, 18:09
Got mine from a guy called Dave in Dartmouth, not you by any chance ?

Most likely to be Dave Cawley of Sound HiFi, Dartmouth.

steve-z
24-11-2017, 18:42
Most likely to be Dave Cawley of Sound HiFi, Dartmouth.

Yes, that’s the guy.


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forsell
24-11-2017, 18:47
but I’m a little concerned over MC compatibility as the input impedance on the MC input is only 47ohms, considerably lower than the norm used by other manufacturers of 100-200ohms.

Acoording to Shit's info given on their web site: "Input Impedance: Selectable 47 ohms or 47k ohms"

General info: you can not INCREASE an input impedance of any device by switching an additional resistor in parallel as it can only lower the resulting input impedance. Hence the only other possibility is connecting an additional resistor in series. This will increase the resulting input impedance but -as both resistor act as voltage divider- the input voltage will be attenuated though.

steve-z
24-11-2017, 19:06
Acoording to Shit's info given on their web site: "Input Impedance: Selectable 47 ohms or 47k ohms"

General info: you can not INCREASE an input impedance of any device by switching an additional resistor in parallel as it can only lower the resulting input impedance. Hence the only other possibility is connecting an additional resistor in series. This will increase the resulting input impedance but -as both resistor act as voltage divider- the input voltage will be attenuated though.

Andrew from Rothwell Audio mentioned earlier that a series resistance would reduce output and affect S/N ratio so not a feasible idea really.


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Barry
24-11-2017, 19:09
Acoording to Shit's info given on their web site: "Input Impedance: Selectable 47 ohms or 47k ohms"

General info: you can not INCREASE an input impedance of any device by switching an additional resistor in parallel as it can only lower the resulting input impedance. Hence the only other possibility is connecting an additional resistor in series. This will increase the resulting input impedance but -as both resistor act as voltage divider- the input voltage will be attenuated though.

True, and as the additional series resistor adds to the source resistance of the cartridge, the signal to noise ratio will be degraded.

If one can select the 47k load impedance on the Schiit device, whilst in MC mode (ie high gain), then fitting a 100R resistor in parallel at the input would offer the correct load to the cartridge.

forsell
24-11-2017, 19:15
...so not a feasible idea really.




I fully agree with you.

I am just wondering what kind of holy grail doing everything "right" some guys expect for GBP 120...

RothwellAudio
27-11-2017, 12:34
I’ve decided against modifying because it sound pretty good as is, there is a bit of smoothing in the treble due to the low impedance loading but I can live with it for the moment until I can raise the cash for a Rega FONO MC which allows a good choice of loadings and from reviews I’ve seen sounds excellent.

You may be hearing smoother treble than you had before but I'm not sure how you can say definitively that that's due to "low impedance loading". What else have you tried with that particular cartridge as a comparison?
I'll admit that specs and computer simulations aren't infallible but my calculations suggest the difference between a 47 ohm load and a 100 ohm load with your cartridge will be nothing but a small change in signal level with no change in frequency response up to 20kHz.

steve-z
27-11-2017, 13:25
You may be hearing smoother treble than you had before but I'm not sure how you can say definitively that that's due to "low impedance loading". What else have you tried with that particular cartridge as a comparison?
I'll admit that specs and computer simulations aren't infallible but my calculations suggest the difference between a 47 ohm load and a 100 ohm load with your cartridge will be nothing but a small change in signal level with no change in frequency response up to 20kHz.

My previous cartridge was a Nagaoka MP110 which is a fairly neutral performer, certainly not bright, obviously I can’t do AB comparisons as I only have one turntable, the main comparison which shows the smoother treble is the comparison with the digital version of the same music, digital frequency response obviously being flat across the audio band so differences show up clearly.
The only magazine review I could find online of the ATF7 which actually included a lab report was from Hifi World August 2010 issue, their FR plot showed a ruler flat response to 7-8khz rising by 2db to 10khz and that level maintained to 18khz, enough to add a little sparkle to the very top, they don’t state what loading they used for the test though.
I get the feeling the Mani was primarily designed as a MM stage for which it is excellent and the MC side of it was a bit of an afterthought.
The benefit I think I will find with a Rega Fono MC is it has been designed to be more focused to be a MC only stage, even the much more expensive Rega Aria which covers MM&MC cartridges has totally independent inputs and circuitry for the 2 types so not compromising either type for the sake of the other. Talk of this is a little academic atm as funding the change is unlikely to occur imminently and a smoother treble doesn’t detract from the overall improvements I’m getting from the ATF7.
http://www.soundhifi.com/images/AT-F7.pdf

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RothwellAudio
27-11-2017, 16:12
The only magazine review I could find online of the ATF7 which actually included a lab report was from Hifi World August 2010 issue, their FR plot showed a ruler flat response to 7-8khz rising by 2db to 10khz and that level maintained to 18khz, enough to add a little sparkle to the very top, they don’t state what loading they used for the test though.

http://www.soundhifi.com/images/AT-F7.pdf


That review states "there is the usual rise in output at high frequencies due to tip mass resonance, resulting in a +2dB plateau lift from 10kHz to 18kHz, just enough to give the sound a little extra high frequency zest."
If the rise was due to coil inductance interacting with load capacitance it could be manipulated by altering the load impedance. However, if it isn't - as claimed by Hi-Fi World - then altering the load impedance won't make any difference.
Anyway, I'm just a bit concerned that you will spend money on another phonostage based on the belief that a different load impedance will brighten things up, and end-up disappointed. Of course, if another phonostage performs differently it would still be speculative to attribute the difference to a change in load impedance.
I suppose something like the Headspace would give you some idea what effect load impedance has. It has eight load impedance settings which can be selected without altering any other parameters. Personally, I can't tell any difference with most cartridges between the 55 ohm setting and the 100 ohm setting.

steve-z
27-11-2017, 16:33
Anyway, I'm just a bit concerned that you will spend money on another phonostage based on the belief that a different load impedance will brighten things up, and end-up disappointed. Of course, if another phonostage performs differently it would still be speculative to attribute the difference to a change in load impedance.

If I do change the phono stage it will only be after an extended audition of a loan unit, if I get the desired result I’ll change, if not then I won’t. It’s the only way to be absolutely sure, certainly the loan of a Rega won’t be a problem as I have a good relationship with my local dealer, any other options might be more difficult.


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RothwellAudio
27-11-2017, 16:38
Fair enough. With fewer and fewer dealers left, all too often people resort to buying online and make their purchasing decision based on specs or reviews or forum recommendations - which may or may not lead to satisfaction.
Good to hear you're still using your local dealer - best way :)

steve-z
28-11-2017, 14:42
It’s interesting to hear other knowledgeable people’s views on this subject, just been reading through an email from NJC Audio sent to Phil Bishop who has just ordered one of their Reference SUTs to go with his NJC MM Phono Stage. It appears from NJCs own tests with MC cartridges that some cartridges respond noticeably to changes of load impedance and on some it makes virtually no difference, there are no hard and fast rules, their advice is to experiment with different load settings, see if it changes cartridge characteristics and then use the setting which sounds correct or to the personal taste of the listener, solid advice I think.


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martinjohn308
29-11-2017, 11:03
I’ve been using moving coils since 1978 with the Supex 900E at that time I used the modules that came with the pre amps firstly Meridian 101 and then Naim 32 both had inbuilt boards.

Fast forward 30 years then moved onto Graham Slee Fanfare which was slightly better than the Naim boards. Not a night and day thing, then about 2010 I bought a Whest Audio30R which was a big improvement able to adjust the ohms by that time I had a Dynavector DV 20 L swiftly followed in a Micro Benz Wood SL an very good cartridge.

I finally I started talking and emailing Simon and I decided to buy the Paradise this was an exceptional phono stage an absolute gem and Simon attention to detail to source all the components and matching the values is such a painstaking job but well worth the time.

I moved onto a Kiseki Blue NS Simon sent me a handful of different value resistors for the loading which I played around with for the better part of 6 weeks. Emailed Kiseki and they recommended 400 ohms loading I found the cartridge somewhat suppressed then tried opposite end of the scale 100 ohms found that to bright moved onto 330 ohms Sound was better than the 400 ohm setting. Finally tried 220 ohms which to me was the sweet spot so I told Simon and he told me to buy the Z foil resistors which I fitted them, so I do think some cartridges do alter with loading values.

Regards,

Martin

RothwellAudio
29-11-2017, 11:19
Emailed Kiseki and they recommended 400 ohms loading I found the cartridge somewhat suppressed then tried opposite end of the scale 100 ohms found that to bright moved onto 330 ohms Sound was better than the 400 ohm setting. Finally tried 220 ohms which to me was the sweet spot so I told Simon and he told me to buy the Z foil resistors which I fitted them, so I do think some cartridges do alter with loading values.
It's interesting that your findings are totally opposite to what most people report when experimenting with load resistors. People usually say that a higher impedance will give a brighter and more dynamic sound, while a low impedance gives a softer, duller sound.
The OP is convinced his cartridge has a subdued treble due to low impedance loading.
:scratch:

steve-z
29-11-2017, 15:37
Had a discussion by email this morning with another forum member Dave (DSJR) relating to my depressed treble issue with the ATF7/Mani combination. One comment he made during our discussions was it might be an idea to replace the Rega wool mat with an acrylic mat as a possible way to give the treble a bit of a boost. It just so happens that I already have an acrylic mat to hand, I used it to good effect on an Audio Technica ATLP120 deck I had a couple of years ago. It’s made by a company called XAudio Designs the mat being labelled the XTM1, it’s matte black acrylic with a machined recess for the record label and an edge recess so it contacts where the run in groove ends. Because the mat is solid it enables me to use the Michell clamp properly with the supplied felt washer over the spindle, something I could not do with the Rega or Origin Live mats due to the size of the hole in the glass platter.
The sound with this setup has definitely given a slight lift to the treble region with the added benefit of firming the bass too, so all good. Thankfully the acrylic mat is exactly the same thickness as the Rega wool mat so no change in vta to worry about.
The improvements in the treble will probably dissuade me from spending more money on another phono stage which has to be good news, so a worthwhile fix with no money spent, excellent:-)


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Phil Bishop
29-11-2017, 16:19
I have tried to understand all the fuss and work out how SUTs work but it's all a bit beyond me.

That said, I have just received a SUT for my MM phono stage from a small outfit I rate very highly. Both stages have lots of adjustability. The MM phono stage has variable capacitance settings. I have scrolled through them with MM cartridges and can tell absolutely no audible difference between them. However, connecting the SUT and switching to MC, dialing through the numerous resistance and gain settings on both units yields clearly audible differences, most obviously in treble suppression. The key now is to work out which one is optimum! I won't get too anal about it - if it sounds right it is right :-)

Cheers

Phil

Firebottle
29-11-2017, 16:44
I have tried to understand all the fuss and work out how SUTs work but it's all a bit beyond me.

Think of the MC cartridge and SUT as a complete unit, in effect a 'super cartridge' that has enough output to connect directly to an MM input.

MC = moving coil, the SUT is in effect the extension of the 'coil' that gives the high output, but to keep the mass down at the cartridge the SUT needs to be a separate unit.

(Before anyone says I know that there is an SPU that includes the SUT at the cartridge end, but this is high mass.)

:)

RothwellAudio
29-11-2017, 17:01
I have tried to understand all the fuss and work out how SUTs work but it's all a bit beyond me.

It's hardly surprising if anyone finds the subject confusing - there's so much misleading (or plain wrong) information circulating. In my opinion the biggest mistake is thinking that the transformer's job is "impedance matching" the cartridge to the phonostage, or that the cartridge needs to see a particular load.
Anyway, I'll not get into refuting that now - too big a subject :eek:

steve-z
04-12-2017, 01:50
Well it's unfortunate I have to report that the acrylic mat "fix" has not proved fruitful and has just thrown up another problem, making use of the Michell clamp just makes the acrylic mat dish upward so there is precious little in contact with the glass platter, so the std Rega wool mat is now back on. This has meant the treble depression has now been thrown back into relief making vinyl listening unsatisfying, in fact downright irritating. Due to this I've decided to sell the Mani and look for a more suitable replacement, what that will be will depend on how much my eBay auction on the Mani raises, their popularity and the current lack of availability may mean a decent amount will be forthcoming, the last Mani sold on eBay just a few days ago made over £50 more than the new retail price, probably due to it being the only Mani on eBay at the time, currently there is one other being auctioned as well as mine so chances of a really high price will be lessened. The Rega Fono MC would be my ultimate aim if I should get a really good return on the Mani, if not I may have to aim lower for a replacement, possibly a Cambridge CP2 which would be a good aesthetic match for my CXA60 amp, some years back I had a Cambridge 640P phono stage which worked very well for several years with the ATOC7 MC I had at the time, the CP2 is the second incarnation of the 640P which should be even better developed, I'll be making a decision on which way I intend to move once the auction finishes in 3 days time.


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steve-z
07-12-2017, 23:00
Well guys, for once fortune has favoured me, mainly I think due to the current non availability of new Schiit Manis mine sold on ebay today for a pretty amazing amount, far more than I could have anticipated, so much so that the Rega Fono MC is within reach. In fact I picked up a loan unit this afternoon from my local Rega dealer to audition at home until next Tuesday.
Once set up I left it on the standard Rega factory settings of 100ohms and 1000picofarads and the lower of the 2 gain settings then settled down for an extended listening session this evening.
Firstly may I say Andrew Rothwell was correct about the low impedance on the Mani causing a drop in output, the Rega has more volume on the low gain setting than the Mani had on the high setting. (Edit: I later realised the factory Rega setting for gain was “high”, have now reset it to low, but even on low it is still marginally louder than the Mani was on high.)
Well how does the ATF7/Rega combo sound ? In a word, brilliant, the lost treble is back to the proper level and I can now actually hear an accurate rendition of cymbals and other metallic percussion, just listened to a half speed mastered version of the 2009 remix of Tubular Bells by Mike Oldfield, the high harmonics and overtones of the metallic percussion were the best I’ve ever experienced off a vinyl record, it was tear jerking.
The combination seems to have no vices and is now just an open window into the music. The Mani on MC made the ATF7 underperform, now it can show its true quality and show it to be quite a bargain in moving coil terms. Thanks to Dave DSJR for the recommendation of both items, he really got it right, great stuff [emoji106]


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montesquieu
08-12-2017, 00:21
Well guys, for once fortune has favoured me, mainly I think due to the current non availability of new Schiit Manis mine sold on ebay today for a pretty amazing amount, far more than I could have anticipated, so much so that the Rega Fono MC is within reach. In fact I picked up a loan unit this afternoon from my local Rega dealer to audition at home until next Tuesday.
Once set up I left it on the standard Rega factory settings of 100ohms and 1000picofarads and the lower of the 2 gain settings then settled down for an extended listening session this evening.
Firstly may I say Andrew Rothwell was correct about the low impedance on the Mani causing a drop in output, the Rega has more volume on the low gain setting than the Mani had on the high setting.
Well how does the ATF7/Rega combo sound ? In a word, brilliant, the lost treble is back to the proper level and I can now actually hear an accurate rendition of cymbals and other metallic percussion, just listened to a half speed mastered version of the 2009 remix of Tubular Bells by Mike Oldfield, the high harmonics and overtones of the metallic percussion were the best I’ve ever experienced off a vinyl record, it was tear jerking.
The combination seems to have no vices and is now just an open window into the music. The Mani on MC made the ATF7 underperform, now it can show its true quality and show it to be quite a bargain in moving coil terms. Thanks to Dave DSJR for the recommendation of both items, he really got it right, great stuff [emoji106]


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Glad you got sorted. I use a Mani in my study system and actually rate it rather highly on moving magnet. I have a couple of pretty decent step up transformers and with these it seems to me to punch well above its weight too. But I guess the Fono is a one box solution.

steve-z
08-12-2017, 00:27
Glad you got sorted. I use a Mani in my study system and actually rate it rather highly on moving magnet. I have a couple of pretty decent step up transformers and with these it seems to me to punch well above its weight too. But I guess the Fono is a one box solution.

Tbh I don’t think there’s a better reasonable priced phono stage for MM cartridges than the Mani, unfortunately it’s not as good on MC. If they made the input impedance the same as most others it could be better. Yes I agree the Fono MC is a good one box solution.


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Firebottle
08-12-2017, 07:58
Excellent result Steve :cool:

steve-z
08-12-2017, 11:56
Thought to try a bit of experimentation this morning, with the amount of adjustment available I thought it might be interesting. I upped the input impedance from 100ohms to 150ohms and had a listen, not a big difference but a noticeable one and beneficial to my ears at least probably lifting the extreme top end by a db or so, the rest of the frequency range unaltered as far as I can observe, I think I may stick with it on this setting. A quick AB with a track or two on digital shows the balance to be very close, it did also show up the Rega has just a touch more bass weight than the digital counterpart but it’s marginal, all good stuff.
Edit:- After a long evening of listening I’ve decided to go back to the 100ohms load setting as although the slight lift in the treble seemed beneficial at first extended listening showed it to impart a slightly brittle character on some music which disappeared when I went back to the 100ohms setting which seems to be optimum so I’ll be sticking with that.
Checking the specs and comparing to the Mani it’s obvious the Rega has considerably greater gain, in fact on low it has 4.5db more gain than the Mani on high and it manages to do it with an even lower noise floor, the Fono MC is definitely an impressive piece of kit.

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