Denon 103r - is it worth the aggro?

[Bigman80]

Hi all,

I'm thinking aloud here so any input is welcome.

I am currently cartridge - less in terms of ownership. I have a AT33PTGII on loan at the minute. It's very good but isn't getting the hair standing on end if you know what I mean. I sold a ZYX R50 BLOOM due to a lack of detail and being on the warmer side of neutral. I've had a DL304, that was a bit lifeless bit very detailed

I've considered a Decca but the temperamental nature of it puts me right off owning one as my main cartridge. I recently heard a 2M black which was very good but not sure I could live with it every day, I also heard a DH-3 which was stunning but at £3500 is not an option. I am awaiting word on an Ortofon Vienna which I was also very impressed with. So that leads me to the DL103R. I hear one in a very high end setup and it was tonally impressive but I'm not a fan of spherical stylus.

I am thinking that I like what the Denon DL103R Does tonally but I'm becoming a bit of a stickler for detail retrieval. Is it worth picking up a broken cantilever 103r cartridge and getting a Fritz Gyger stylus and a slightly more compliant cantilever put on it?

If not, what would you look for instead.

Any suggestions welcome.



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[CageyH]

A boron cantilevered, Shibata tipped DL-103 in a brass TechneAudio body. ;)

[walpurgis]

I was using a DL-103R before I got the R50 Bloom. It was OK, but the ZYX wiped the floor with it.

As I've mentioned before. You'd probably like the Goldring Eroica LX. It's way better than the Denon.

[CageyH]

I was impressed with the Dynavector XX2 when I heard it.
Cartridges are such a personal choice, it is difficult to recommend one.

Does it have to be MC?
The AT150-SA might suit you if not.

[montesquieu]

The 1010 is a tonearm of respectable mass so with a good heavy headshell and possibly some extra weight on the counterweight (I have a ring that goes round mine provided by Angus) then you should get decent performance out of a DL-103R. They are always competent, but only shine where there is enough mass in the systen to get them digging in.

However, I always think using a paratrage on a 103 doesn't ultimately work, you get more detail, but less soul. (Though it does depend on the job that was done fitting the tup and how well it's set up). Anyway I had two done at Expert, a 103 and a 103R and both disappointed. So if you do have one retipped, I would say Fritz Geiger is probably the way to go. Though to be frank, if it were me I would leave well alone - it is what it is, a good honest, reliable cartridge, a great deal at its price point. The purchase price + retip money could be spent more wisely I would suggest.

I would suggest that there are better options - Shelter 501 and Ortofon Kontrapunkt/Cadenza line both provide soul and detail (I found Non-Smoking Man's Cadenza Blue really captivating on a visit to his some months back and I owned both a 501 and a Jubilee myself at one point). I use a vintage Ortofon SPU GE (eliptical) on my 1010, with Angus's extra ring again, and it sounds fantastic.

If you really are set on going for broke on detail you could look at a Lyra, I've had a few (Helicon, Dorian, Dorian Mono, Clavis, Argo II - the Argo being the best of them in my book). Not entirely to my taste any more (I take wholeness, harmonic richness, tone quality, front to back depth, over a cartridge with hyper-detail and pin-point L-R staging these days - hence my last 5 years or so with Audio Note Io2, assortied Miyajimas, and higher-end Ortofon SPUs, all variations on the vintage SPU theme) but they are something to experience for sure and some people rave about them. The 1010 without the extra counterweight should handle one no bother.

[Bigman80]

I'm not entirely set on it being MC. I have an option for either with the Jolida.

Geoff, Kevin, Tom. Thank you for the input.

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[Bigman80]

The Lyra sounds of interest but I missed out on Floydroids which is a shame. I'm really hoping the Ortofon Vienna comes my way. It's from the Kontrapunkt line.

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[paulf-2007]

The 103 had the nickname the rusty nail over on wigwam, so for a long time I ignored it and didn't hear one. Eventually I bought a 103 and 103r. The step up have is set up for the 103r and is very good, it plays music but it seems you are going to be analytical so I would say don't waste your time and money trying to make it something it's not. I keep it as a second cart but prefer a Shure ultra 500 in a Martin bastin body. The 103 I sold, it's a decent cart.

[stevied]

Get yourself the new Zyx Bloom mk3 low output.

[Bigman80]

The 103 had the nickname the rusty nail over on wigwam, so for a long time I ignored it and didn't hear one. Eventually I bought a 103 and 103r. The step up have is set up for the 103r and is very good, it plays music but it seems you are going to be analytical so I would say don't waste your time and money trying to make it something it's not. I keep it as a second cart but prefer a Shure ultra 500 in a Martin bastin body. The 103 I sold, it's a decent cart.Cheers Paul, not analytical just want to hear the depths of the groove. Neutral and transparent. I'm not after warm or rich.

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[Bigman80]

Get yourself the new Zyx Bloom mk3 low output.The bloom I had just didn't get to the bottom of the groove. I'm ready for a change.

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[stevied]

[QUOTE=Bigman80;918197]The bloom I had just didn't get to the bottom of the groove. I'm ready for a change


I think you may like a dynavector dv 17d3 or slightly bigger budget xx2

[Bigman80]

[QUOTE=Bigman80;918197]The bloom I had just didn't get to the bottom of the groove. I'm ready for a change


I think you may like a dynavector dv 17d3 or slightly bigger budget xx2Hmmm, maybe. I'd love to hear them all before I jumped on lol.

Someone else has privately recommended a Dynavector too. I'll await the outcome of being second in line for the Vienna before I start seriously considering anything.

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[stevied]

Had both and could live with either also had Lyra Delos but preferred Dynavector.

[montesquieu]

The Lyra sounds of interest but I missed out on Floydroids which is a shame. I'm really hoping the Ortofon Vienna comes my way. It's from the Kontrapunkt line.

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Missed the reference to that. German market I believe, not sure what 'our' equivalent was but definitely top end. Should be fab if you can get hold of it.

[Bigman80]

Missed the reference to that. German market I believe, not sure what 'our' equivalent was but definitely top end. Should be fab if you can get hold of it.I have heard it and it was stunningly good, just having to wait. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky!!

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[Floyddroid]

If it's detail you want without spending silly money look no further than an Audio Technica OC9 MLIII. Fit and forget. Highly musical great on detail.

[Bigman80]

If it's detail you want without spending silly money look no further than an Audio Technica OC9 MLIII. Fit and forget. Highly musical great on detail.I read it's slightly warm sounding? Is that in line with your experience?

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[stevied]

Dynavector just gone on pinkfish.:)

[Bigman80]

It's a bit over budget. 😮😝

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[vinylspinner]

I’m with Tom on this one. Shelter 501 really sings on my Audio Technica ATP12 arm, good all round performance and I am more than happy with it. I have an Allnic Verito cartridge that also works with that arm.

Nigel

[paulf-2007]

You can throw all the carts known to man at it....but if they are not matched to the arm and phono/step up they will never sound how they should.

[Bigman80]

I’m with Tom on this one. Shelter 501 really sings on my Audio Technica ATP12 arm, good all round performance and I am more than happy with it. I have an Allnic Verito cartridge that also works with that arm.

NigelI know you do Nigel, it did come to mind but I'm a bit off its price. Also, I haven't ever heard of one 😂

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[alphaGT]

The 1010 is a tonearm of respectable mass so with a good heavy headshell and possibly some extra weight on the counterweight (I have a ring that goes round mine provided by Angus) then you should get decent performance out of a DL-103R. They are always competent, but only shine where there is enough mass in the systen to get them digging in.

However, I always think using a paratrage on a 103 doesn't ultimately work, you get more detail, but less soul. (Though it does depend on the job that was done fitting the tup and how well it's set up). Anyway I had two done at Expert, a 103 and a 103R and both disappointed. So if you do have one retipped, I would say Fritz Geiger is probably the way to go. Though to be frank, if it were me I would leave well alone - it is what it is, a good honest, reliable cartridge, a great deal at its price point. The purchase price + retip money could be spent more wisely I would suggest.

I would suggest that there are better options - Shelter 501 and Ortofon Kontrapunkt/Cadenza line both provide soul and detail (I found Non-Smoking Man's Cadenza Blue really captivating on a visit to his some months back and I owned both a 501 and a Jubilee myself at one point). I use a vintage Ortofon SPU GE (eliptical) on my 1010, with Angus's extra ring again, and it sounds fantastic.

If you really are set on going for broke on detail you could look at a Lyra, I've had a few (Helicon, Dorian, Dorian Mono, Clavis, Argo II - the Argo being the best of them in my book). Not entirely to my taste any more (I take wholeness, harmonic richness, tone quality, front to back depth, over a cartridge with hyper-detail and pin-point L-R staging these days - hence my last 5 years or so with Audio Note Io2, assortied Miyajimas, and higher-end Ortofon SPUs, all variations on the vintage SPU theme) but they are something to experience for sure and some people rave about them. The 1010 without the extra counterweight should handle one no bother.

Tom you are my Hero! I only wish I had heard half of the cartridges you’ve owned!


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[alphaGT]

I know you do Nigel, it did come to mind but I'm a bit off its price. Also, I haven't ever heard of one [emoji23]

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So how much money do you have to play with? That should narrow down the options right off.


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[Bigman80]

So how much money do you have to play with? That should narrow down the options right off.


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkLets say Around £500. Give or take a few pence.

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[blackholesun]

I bought a 103R to try on my Sony which was supposed to have a heavier tonearm. Quite possibly the effective mass on that tonearm was higher than Rega, but still insufficient for 103r. This cart really needs a tonearm with a high effective mass. I also tried a heavy counterweight and a Denon SUT. In the end I sold 103r, I preferred DL-110 and my Benz Ace.
But it's a personal thing, at a mini bake-off a friend of mine preferred 103r through his phono stage in my system, while I preferred Benz Ace with my phono stage.

[Bigbird]

ortofon rondo bronze??? they have the FG tip on them already. not sure how it would match the arm though??

[karma67]

Have a day out with your misses in Brighton oil and hear my decca lol

[jandl100]

For years I was a big fan of Dynavectors.
Started with a DV23rs, and wound my way up thru 17D2, 17D3, XX1L ..... then topped the lot musically with a 10X5. :eek:
How weird is that? :mental:
But the 10X5 remains the most enjoyable Dyna I owned.
You do get a bit more detail out of the propa Dyna MCs, but there's a rambunctious, lolloping sense of fun and sheer enjoyment with the 10X5 that won me over.

I'm also a big fan of the Denon 103, especially when rebodied in a nice massy lump of aluminium. I ended up with a Zu 103 after owning a standard 103 and loved it. It's a great way to extract more detail and refinement out of the bundle of musical fun that is the standard 103.
I never got round to a 103R.

It does sound kind of crazy - but cross a 17D3 with a 103 and you kinda end up with a 10X5. :)

Anyways, when all is said and done, given your stated preferences, I would defo look at a Zu 103.

[bob4333]

I read it's slightly warm sounding? Is that in line with your experience?

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FWIW I have an OC9 ML II. Warmness isn't a trait I'd accuse it of, I found it quite analytical and searching. Needs the right phono stage though: a Trichord Diablo didn't cut it: sounded a bit thin, but much better with a valve stage. I preferred the 33 PTG.

Just what I found.

[Bigman80]

FWIW I have an OC9 ML II. Warmness isn't a trait I'd accuse it of, I found it quite analytical and searching. Needs the right phono stage though: a Trichord Diablo didn't cut it: sounded a bit thin, but much better with a valve stage. I preferred the 33 PTG.

Just what I found.Thanks Bob.

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[Bigman80]

For years I was a big fan of Dynavectors.
Started with a DV23rs, and wound my way up thru 17D2, 17D3, XX1L ..... then topped the lot musically with a 10X5. :eek:
How weird is that? :mental:
But the 10X5 remains the most enjoyable Dyna I owned.
You do get a bit more detail out of the propa Dyna MCs, but there's a rambunctious, lolloping sense of fun and sheer enjoyment with the 10X5 that won me over.

I'm also a big fan of the Denon 103, especially when rebodied in a nice massy lump of aluminium. I ended up with a Zu 103 after owning a standard 103 and loved it. It's a great way to extract more detail and refinement out of the bundle of musical fun that is the standard 103.
I never got round to a 103R.

It does sound kind of crazy - but cross a 17D3 with a 103 and you kinda end up with a 10X5. :)

Anyways, when all is said and done, given your stated preferences, I would defo look at a Zu 103.Thank Jerry

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[Bigman80]

Have a day out with your misses in Brighton oil and hear my decca lolIf I could I would mate. To be honest If I could stretch to a new super gold with Decca pod. I would.

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[Marco]

Oliver, it's probably best if I refrain from commenting on the 103R [even though I know these cartridges, and indeed all Denons inside out], or some of the recommendations made in respect of what to get instead, as most of the opinions expressed are diametrically opposed from mine, and I don't want to upset anyone... ;)

Marco.

[paulf-2007]

Oliver, it's probably best if I refrain from commenting on the 103R [even though I know these cartridges, and indeed all Denons inside out], or some of the recommendations made in respect of what to get instead, as most of the opinions expressed are diametrically opposed from mine, and I don't want to upset anyone... ;)

Marco.fess up Marco, everyone's opinion is valid. The 103r for me is a fine cart at its price point. There are carts 20 x the price that underwhelm me, so go figure.

[Bigman80]

Oliver, it's probably best if I refrain from commenting on the 103R [even though I know these cartridges, and indeed all Denons inside out], or some of the recommendations made in respect of what to get instead, as most of the opinions expressed are diametrically opposed from mine, and I don't want to upset anyone... ;)

Marco.Hi Marco,

As our Resident DL103 expert, it would be a shame NOT to get your feedback/input on this subject. All opinions are valid we just don't all have to agree!!

Maybe your opinion on how my suggestion of a retipped DL103r would work? No offence could be taken from that, surely!!



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[Scooby]

Oliver, it's probably best if I refrain from commenting on the 103R [even though I know these cartridges, and indeed all Denons inside out], or some of the recommendations made in respect of what to get instead, as most of the opinions expressed are diametrically opposed from mine, and I don't want to upset anyone... ;)

Marco.

Seconded. I've had stellar results from the 103R and know the cart well, having used it many times in different circumstances.

But then carts are so personal, and thenthere's all the set-up, arm matching, phono stage choice, deck etc etc etc.

Oliver: I'd say the only way you will know is to try. Other people's opinions are just as likely to match yours as they are to be diametrically opposed.

[Marco]

Lol... My comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Tom's views were closest in alignment with mine, apart from his liking for Lyras! :doh:;) I'll post something after breakfast.

One thing I will say, in the interim, is that *ONLY* get into the 103 thing if you're willing to go the whole hog, in terms of what's necessary to get these carts to sing (and btw, I won't be recommending an 'R', but something else), otherwise don't bother.

However, if you do what's needed, the effort will be well worth it. You've got the right T/T and arm, so it's a good start. More later! :cool:

Marco.

[jandl100]

The idea of Marco not being willing to express an opinion was kind of weird. :eek:
:lol:

[Bigman80]

Lol... My comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Tom's views were closest in alignment with mine, apart from his liking for Lyras! :doh:;) I'll post something after breakfast.

One thing I will say, in the interim, is that *ONLY* get into the 103 thing if you're willing to go the whole hog, in terms of what's necessary to get these carts to sing (and btw, I won't be recommending an 'R', but something else), otherwise don't bother.

However, if you do what's needed, the effort will be well worth it. You've got the right T/T and arm, so it's a good start. More later! :cool:

Marco.Ha, I remember you saying that to me about the 1210.

I'm sure that you will give food for thought!

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[Bigman80]

The idea of Marco not being willing to express an opinion was kind of weird. :eek:
:lol:🤣

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[Bigman80]

Seconded. I've had stellar results from the 103R and know the cart well, having used it many times in different circumstances.

But then carts are so personal, and thenthere's all the set-up, arm matching, phono stage choice, deck etc etc etc.

Oliver: I'd say the only way you will know is to try. Other people's opinions are just as likely to match yours as they are to be diametrically opposed.As all things, personal experience is where the best judgement is found. Thanks Scooby

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[farflungstar]

I've never tried the Denon - not sure why. But I tend to get put off when there are too many iterations of something (like audio note). What I have experienced is a shibata tip and to be honest I wouldn't have one again - very very fussy about set up. the FG is much better in my opinion - equal detail retrieval but much easier to set up.

[Ali Tait]

Oliver, I’ve heard a Van Den Hul retipped 103r that I thought very good, real boogie factor. Preferred it to a standard one.

[Bigman80]

I've never tried the Denon - not sure why. But I tend to get put off when there are too many iterations of something (like audio note). What I have experienced is a shibata tip and to be honest I wouldn't have one again - very very fussy about set up. the FG is much better in my opinion - equal detail retrieval but much easier to set up.I'd prefer a FG tip. No argument there.

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[Bigman80]

Oliver, I’ve heard a Van Den Hul retipped 103r that I thought very good, real boogie factor. Preferred it to a standard one.Thanks Ali, that's very interesting. More detail?

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[walpurgis]

I can see where you are aiming to get Oliver. You thought the R50 'warm and lacking in detail'. That is true to an extent, but very few MC's offer that amazing soundstage and mid transparency. The Denons don't, I've had half a dozen. Did you get a listen to Alan's R100? That has the 'good stuff', but is more neutral and very detailed. The imaging is fantastic. Finding one used is tricky though and the new revised version costs an arm and a leg!

[Bigman80]

I can see where you are aiming to get Oliver. You thought the R50 'warm and lacking in detail'. That is true to an extent, but very few MC's offer that amazing soundstage and mid transparency. The Denons don't, I've had half a dozen. Did you get a listen to Alan's R100? That has the 'good stuff', but is more neutral and very detailed. The imaging is fantastic. Finding one used is tricky though and the new revised version costs an arm and a leg!I can see it too Geoff but not sure it's attainable in my budget. I've just received news that the Ortofon Vienna will be with me on the 28/11/17 for a good listen.

They are different beasts no doubt.

I did have a listen to Alan's r100 and it's undoubtedly very very good but I haven't heard it on my TT in my house. So difficult to judge.

I'll give the Ortofon a real run out. See where it lies after that.

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[Marco]

...but very few MC's offer that amazing soundstage and mid transparency. The Denons don't, I've had half a dozen.

You'll only really get that from a Decca (when it works), but in terms of soundstage, Geoff, I'd have to wholeheartedly disagree about 103s, as when you get the BEST out of them (perhaps in your time using them, you didn't quite manage that?) the size of the soundstage they produce is positively cavernous!

Have you ever used a NOS vintage limited-edition 103 (M, SA, GL or C1), with a top-notch head amp (not SUT), through a top-notch valve MM stage? And of course with a high-mass arm (and/or headshell), on a top-notch direct-drive T/T? That's where the 'magic' lies - and all those ingredients have to be in place for it to work... ;)

Be with you shortly, Oliver. Just about finished my morning cappuccino and croissant!

Marco.

[Bigman80]

You'll only really get that from a Decca (when it works), but in terms of soundstage, Geoff, I'd have to wholeheartedly disagree about 103s, as when you get the BEST out of them, perhaps in your time using them you didn't quite manage that, the size of the soundstage they produce is positively cavernous!

Have you ever used a NOS vintage limited edition one, with a top-notch head amp (not SUT), through a top-notch valve MM stage? And of course with a high-mass arm (and/or headshell) on a direct-drive T/T? That's where the 'magic' lies - and all those ingredients have to be in place for it to work... ;)

Be with you shortly, Oliver. Just about finished my morning cappuccino and croissant!

Marco.No worries!

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[Ali Tait]

Thanks Ali, that's very interesting. More detail?

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Hard to say, we were comparing it to a worn standard cart. I did like it though.

[Bigman80]

Hard to say, we were comparing it to a worn standard cart. I did like it though.Fair enough

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[Ammonite Audio]

I once heard a 103SA sounding pretty good in Marco’s system quite a few years back, and then I bought a standard 103 which sounded awful, so I pretty much gave up on these old things. But, Ana Mighty Sound do some interesting looking 103 variants and I’m tempted (purely from a personal point of view) to try one of these http://anamightysound.com/shop/cartridges/cala103-three/ , but possibly not in the Malachite body.

[Bigman80]

Ah, now they are interesting!

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[Marco]

I once heard a 103SA sounding pretty good in Marco’s system quite a few years back, and then I bought a standard 103 which sounded awful, so I pretty much gave up on these old things.


....which ably proves that there's a marked difference between what's possible with a 103, depending on the model used. So if you think you've 'heard' a 103, if you've only ever used a standard current production one (and I include the 'R' in this), then in reality you've heard but a snapshot of the real thing...

With 103s, it's all about CONTEXT, in terms of model used and the supporting equipment and ancillaries.

You have to remember that these cartridges hark from an era [late 1950s] where different 'rules' applied, in terms of what was considered as the norm, and indeed optimal way of playing vinyl records (in broadcast studios). Therefore the ONLY way to hear them properly, is to replicate (as far as possible) the 'environment' that they were used in originally.

Otherwise all you're doing is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole! ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Here's the pic of the 'SA' Hugo was referring to, shown fixed to a Fidelity Research headshell, and (at that time) a Jelco SA-750 arm:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/m3CvEx.jpg

I later swapped the 'SA' for an SPU, which I now regret - not getting an SPU, as that then launched me into the wonderful world of those particular gems, but that I didn't just buy one and keep the 'SA', as it, along with the 'GL' are unquestionably the best 103s (featuring the use of conical styli), ever produced.

Post coming up now for Oliver, and anyone else who may be interested...

Marco.

[Bigman80]

I presume we're talking Denon HA-500 or similar? When talking head amps.

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[Marco]

Ok, the first thing you should know, in relation to DL-103s, is that since Denon stopped trading as Nippon Columbia [later Denon Ltd] in 2002, and merged with Marantz Japan INC, the core design of the 103 changed [moving from using Alnico to rare-earth magnets in the generator], carried out in order to save costs and maintain the current relatively low selling price, for what is a high-quality MC cartridge.

The only reason the currently produced models sell for what they do (and those before it), rather than five times the amount, which would be more realistic considering the performance on offer, is because of economies of scale, due to Denon being a HUGE Japanese corporation. Therefore, you simply cannot judge this cartridge on its retail price alone.

It's 'cheap' because of the above, and because more than ten thousand of them have been produced since it was first introduced in 1958, mainly for radio stations and broadcasting studios throughout the world, but mostly in Japan, for the NHK - the Japanese equivalent of the BBC, so they needed to be in plentiful supply when replacements were required.

If it hadn't been for the above, and if the same cartridge had been produced by a 'high-end' cartridge manufacturer, with a desirable 'badge' amongst audiophiles, and housed in a quality aluminium body, it would've sold for at least £1k, perhaps more. Therefore, it has to be used and judged in that context. One of the biggest mistakes people make is thinking of it as a 'budget' £200 cartridge (due to its price tag), and so a) not treating it seriously, and b) not spending enough on partnering ancillaries, especially tonearm and phono stage.

This is a cartridge that really needs to be treated seriously and used in a certain way, in order to get the most from it, and to hear what all the fuss is about, in terms of its reputation and cult status amongst vinyl aficionados worldwide - and the sonic rewards obtained by partnering it correctly are significant. I'll get to how best to achieve that shortly.

Ok, let's go back to how the design of the 103 was changed in the early 2000s, and Denon then abandoning their use of Alnico magnets, in favour of a less expensive variety of rare-earth magnets... There are those that would say a 'magnet is a magnet', and so as long as it performs its primary function, it shouldn't matter which one is used. When it comes to things like cartridges and loudspeakers, however, I'd beg to differ.

However, I'll leave the technical folks (and anyone else interested) to debate that one, but what others and I who've been using DL-103s (of various forms), for the last 30-odd years can clearly hear, is a marked difference in sound between ones produced pre-2002 (using Alnicos), and post-2002, minus such. I can go into that in more detail for anyone who's interested, but trust me, the difference (musically) isn't subtle!

Therefore, what this essentially means is that unless you've actively sought to obtain a NOS (or good condition 2nd hand one), from the 'golden era', then the 103 you're listening to now isn't the 'real McCoy'...

And that's one of the reasons why, when buying a DL-103 it pays to check the serial number, because sometimes old stock items, lying forgotten in warehouses somewhere, can often show up for sale on the likes of ebay - AND also one of the reasons why limited edition ones sound best, simply because they were produced during the 'Alnico era'. The other important reason is because they all featured the use of improved, high-quality body-shells.

Therefore, it is the plastic shell, used on all entry-level 103s, that is *the* single most limiting factor, in terms sonic performance. Not the stylus*, tip, suspension or anything else [*only when in certain circumstances Denon chose to fit elliptical styli]. Denon themselves knew this (as that's where costs had been cut to keep the price down), which is why they addressed that issue in the design of their limited edition cartridges.

What they didn't do with those models was fit 'fancy tips' [fine-line styli], which yes in some areas improves matters (namely ultimate detail retrieval and lower distortion), if you go for one of the many 'tarted up' versions for sale, but also subsequently (and fundamentally) changes the sound, resulting in, as some have noted already, losing the 'soul' and inherent musical abilities of the cartridge in the process, and what makes it special.

If you're the type of listener who tunes into [and gets excited about] 'twinkling airy highs' and filigree detailing, and prefer cartridges with those traits, along with a lighter, brighter sound [count me out, which is why I haven't done it], then by all means fit a 'fancy stylus', FG or whatever, to a 103. But in doing so realise that you'll have lost some of the soul, bass authority and 'boogie factor' with it, as the tone (and musical nature) of the cartridge changes fundamentally, when the original stylus is replaced for something 'better'.

That's the trade-off, which always exists in some form with audio. It largely depends, however, on how you assess sound in a hi-fi context, and also what type of music you listen to mostly, as to whether or not you'll fall in love with a 'pimped 103'.

The sensible money (and considerable experience) says that retaining all else but the plastic body-shell (and perhaps upgrading the internal wiring to LC-OFC), along with the stock shell, to something less resonant, is the way to go. That's why Denon did precisely that with the DL-103SA, and others before it. Now which type of shell you choose is the fun part! Because there are so many options...

Just bear in mind that there are fundamental sonic differences between wood and metal, and then from one type of wood and metal to another!! ;) So experimenting and listening is the only way to discover what's best for you, although in that respect I can provide some basic pointers.

So to sum things up for Oliver, and any other potential buyers of a DL-103... If you want to hear what one is truly capable of, then it *must* be NOS, pre-2002, and preferably either an M, SA (introduced after 2002, but uses generators from old stock), GL or C1. There are some other good ones too, such as the D and FL, but they sound quite different.

Plus, there is the truly superb DL-S1, and 'giant-killer' supreme (my main and favourite cartridge) but that's a rather different beast! And now unfortunately discontinued. Also, forget about hearing any of the above cartridges properly unless you have the following items in place to use them with:

1) A high-quality D/D turntable (SL-1200, SP10, EMT, Pioneer PL-71, or any of Pioneer's, Denon's, Toshiba's or Sony's best efforts from the 70s). Or with something truly amazing, as shown here, such as a Trio (Kenwood) L-07D):

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/MnTiKa.jpg

2) A high-quality high-mass detachable headshell tonearm (such as those from the likes of Fidelity Research, Ortofon and Audio Technica, or Jelco).

3) Or a medium-mass 'lossy' tonearm, such as Denon's own and from other Jap manufacturers, or the likes of a NOS Linn LVV), fitted with a high-mass headshell (preferably constructed from magnesium). The high-mass bit is crucial (the magnesium bit less so, but definitely better), and in terms of mass, I'm talking minimum 18g for the headshell alone!

4) A top-notch valve MM phono stage.

5) A top-notch moving-coil head amplifier (or SUT), which loads the cartridge correctly and provides sufficient gain. However, in my experience 103s work best actively, with head amps. The Denon HA-500 is a good choice, and at the other end of the pricing scale, the popular little Lentek unit, or the likes of a Rothwell Headspace.

And last, but certainly not least, set the cartrdge up with forensic attention to detail, in terms of optimising VTA, azimuth and VTF (downforce) - and there, always aim for the higher end of the recommended user range. Also, always use non-magnetic stainless steel allen bolts, to secure the cartridge to the headshell, nipped up tightly, and good quality lead wire. The thin wires you get 'free' with basic headshells are crap, and act as a significant bottleneck.

If you can't put all (or most) of the above in place, then FORGET all about hearing any DL-103 properly!!

Bloody hell, it's lunchtime now.... :eek::D Anyway, hopefully all this will be useful info.

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Ok, the first thing you should know, in relation to DL-103s, is that since Denon, as a company, stopped trading as Nippon Columbia [later Denon Ltd] in 2002, and merged with Marantz Japan INC, the core design of the 103 changed [a move from using Alnico to rare-earth magnets in the generator], done in order to save costs and maintain the relatively low selling price for what is a high-quality MC cartridge.

The only reason the currently produced models sell for what they do (and those before it), rather than five times the amount, which would be more realistic considering the performance on offer, is because of economies of scale, due to Denon being a HUGE Japanese corporation. Therefore, you simply cannot judge this cartridge on its retail price.

It's 'cheap' because of the above, and because tens of thousands of them have been produced since it was first introduced in 1958, mainly for radio stations and broadcasting houses throughout the world, but mostly in Japan, for the NHK - the Japanese equivalent of the BBC, so they needed to be in plentiful supply when replacements were required.

If it hadn't been for the above, and if the same cartridge had been produced by a 'high-end' cartridge manufacturer, with a desirable 'badge' amongst audiophiles, and housed in a quality aluminium body, it would've sold for around £1k. Therefore, it has to be used and judged in that context. One of the biggest mistakes people make is thinking of it as a 'budget' £200 cartridge (due to its price tag), and so a) not treating it seriously, and b) not spending enough on partnering ancillaries, especially tonearm and phono stage.

This is a cartridge that really needs to be treated seriously and used in a certain way, in order to get the most from it, and hear what all the fuss is about, in terms of its following/cult status amongst discerning listeners worldwide - and the sonic rewards of doing so are significant. I'll get to how best to achieve that shortly.

Ok, let's go back to how the design of the 103 was changed in the early 2000s, and Denon then abandoning their use of Alnico magnets, in favour of a less expensive variety of rare-earth magnets... There are those that would say a 'magnet is a magnet', and so as long as it performs its primary function, it shouldn't matter which one is used. When it comes to things like cartridges and loudspeakers, I'd beg to differ.

However, I'll leave the technical folks (and anyone else interested) to debate that one, but what others and I who've been using DL-103s (of various forms), for the last 30-odd years can clearly hear, is a marked difference in sound between DL-103s produced pre-2002 (using Alnicos), and post-2002, when they didn't. I can go into that in more detail for anyone who's interested, but trust me, the difference (musically) isn't subtle!

Therefore, what that essentially means is that unless you've actively sought to obtain a NOS (or good condition 2nd hand one), from the 'golden era', then the 103 you're listening to now isn't the 'real McCoy'...

And that's one of the reasons why, when buying a DL-103 it pays to check the serial number, because sometimes old stock items, lying forgotten in warehouses somewhere, can often show up for sale on the likes of ebay - AND also one of the reasons why limited edition ones sound best, because they were produced during the 'Alnico era'.

The other important reason is because they all featured the use of improved, high-quality body-shells - and so it is the plastic shell, used on all entry-level 103s, that is *the* single most limiting factor, in terms sonic performance. Not the stylus*, tip, suspension or anything else [*only when in certain circumstances Denon chose to fit elliptical styli]. Denon themselves knew that the plastic shell was the main limiting factor, which is why they addressed that area on their limited edition cartridges.

What they didn't do with those models was fit 'fancy tips' [fine-line styli], which yes in some areas improves matters (namely ultimate detail retrieval and lower distortion), if you go for one of the many 'tarted up' versions for sale, but also subsequently (and fundamentally) changes the sound, with as some have said already, losing the 'soul' and inherent musical abilities of the cartridge in the process, and what makes it special.

If you're the type of listener who tunes into twinkling 'airy highs' and filigree detailing, and prefer cartridges with those traits, along with a lighter, brighter sound [count me out, which is why I haven't done it], then by all means fit a 'fancy stylus', FG or whatever, to a 103, but in doing so realise that you'll have lost some of the soul, bass authority and 'boogie factor' with it, as the tone (and musical nature) of the cartridge changes fundamentally when the original stylus is replaced for something 'better'.

It largely depends on how you assess sound, in a hi-fi context, and also what type of music you listen to mostly, as to whether you'll fall in love with a 'pimped 103' or not.

The sensible money (and considerable experience) says that retaining all else but the plastic body-shell (and perhaps upgrading the internal wiring to LC-OFC), along with the body-shell, using a less resonant material, is the way to go. That's why Denon did precisely that with the DL-103SA, and others before it. Now which type of shell you choose is the fun part! Because there are so many options...

Just bear in mind that there are fundamental sonic differences between wood and metal, and then from one type of wood and metal to another!! ;) So experimenting and listening is the only way to discover what's best for you, although in that respect I can provide some basic pointers.

So to sum things up for Oliver, and any other potential buyers of a DL-103... If you want to hear what one is truly capable of, then it *must* be NOS pre-2002, and preferably either an M, SA (introduced after 2002 but uses Alnicos), GL or C1. There are some other good ones too, such as the D and FL, but they sound quite different.

Plus, there is the truly superb DL-S1, and 'giant-killer' supreme (my main and favourite cartridge) but that's a rather different beast! And now unfortunately discontinued. Also, forget about hearing any of the above cartridges properly unless you have the following items in place to use them with:

1) A high-quality D/D Jap turntable (SL-1200, SP10, Pioneer PL-71, or any of Denon, Toshiba or Sony's best efforts from the 70s).

2) A high-quality high-mass detachable headshell tonearm (such as those from the likes of Fidelity Research, Ortofon and Audio Technica, or Jelco).

3) Or a medium mass 'lossy' tonearm, such as Denon's own and from other Jap manufacturers, or the likes of a Linn LVV), fitted with a high-mass headshell (preferably constructed from magnesium). The high-mass bit is crucial (the magnesium bit less so, but definitely better), and in terms of mass, I'm talking minimum 18g for the headshell alone!

4) A top-notch valve MM phono stage.

5) A top-notch moving-coil head amplifier (or SUT), but in my experience 103s work best with the former. The Denon HA-500 is a good choice, and at the other end of the pricing scale, the popular little Lentek unit, or the likes of a Rothwell Headspace.

And last, but certainly not least, set the cartrdge up with forensic attention to detail, in terms of optimising VTA, azimuth and VTF (downforce) - and there, always aim for the higher end of the recommended user range. Also, always use non-magnetic stainless steel allen bolts to secure the cartridge to the headshell, nipped up tightly, and good quality lead wire. The thin wires you get 'free' with basic headshells are crap, and act as a significant bottleneck.

If you can't put all (or most) of the above in place, then FORGET all about hearing any DL-103 properly!!

Bloody hell, it's lunchtime now.... :eek::D Anyway, hopefully all this will be useful info.

Marco.Thanks Marco! That's quite a lot to digest but I will certainly be re reading for memory sake.

So, NOS or the aforementioned "editions" are now on the list to look out for.



Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Marco]

Yup, if you can't find an SA, what you want is a GL: https://www.ebay.com/itm/DENON-DL-103GL-Gold-Limited-Cartridge-Original-stylus-moving-Coil-low-output-/302019909747

Preferably a NOS one, but I've had experience with several of these Japanese sellers, and what they sell invariably fits the description, plus they're generally always good to deal with, so I wouldn't baulk at importing a used one from someone such as the above, or from the likes of 2juki or foxtan - all ebay 'stalwarts' with vintage gear.

Or, this lovely NOS C1, which whilst not as good as an SA or GL, will certainly outperform any currently produced DL-103, 'R' or otherwise:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DENON-DL-103-C1-Class-Limited-Turntable-Phono-Cartridge-Audiophile-MC/162740386737?hash=item25e4153bb1:g:AKAAAOSwz-5ZiZuD

:cool:

Marco.

[worrasf]

I have had a 103, 103R and a custom built 103 by Dom at NWA which was by far the best in terms of musicality and enjoyment of the 3.

I’m currently using a Denon DL-S1 with a Denon AU-S1 SUT and this combo is the best I have ever heard. The DL-S1 is mounted on an Isokinetik silver melody headshell and Jelco 750 arm - it sounded very good when I was using a Denon AU-320 SUT but the synergy with the AU-S1 is truly amazing. I use a Mint Tractor to setup the DL-S1 and I track at the max recommended VTF of 1.5g and virtually no anti skate. Took hours to get it right but it rewards patience.
So to echo Marco the setup and partner kit is crucial with these Denons.
FWIW I couldn’t get on with the Zyx R100H - way to warm and “bloomy” for my taste.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171114/e03f4f1a823557b1f2021e2387e5a435.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171114/2ffae300ca87b7c8b2ae95661995e633.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

I have had a 103, 103R and a custom built 103 by Dom at NWA which was by far the best in terms of musicality and enjoyment of the 3.

I’m currently using a Denon DL-S1 with a Denon AU-S1 SUT and this combo is the best I have ever heard. The DL-S1 is mounted on an Isokinetik silver melody headshell and Jelco 750 arm - it sounded very good when I was using a Denon AU-320 SUT but the synergy with the AU-S1 is truly amazing. I use a Mint Tractor to setup the DL-S1 and I track at the max recommended VTF of 1.5g and virtually no anti skate. Took hours to get it right but it rewards patience.
So to echo Marco the setup and partner kit is crucial with these Denons.
FWIW I couldn’t get on with the Zyx R100H - way to warm and “bloomy” for my taste.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171114/e03f4f1a823557b1f2021e2387e5a435.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171114/2ffae300ca87b7c8b2ae95661995e633.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYep, way over budget 😂😂

Still, I'd really like to hear that combination!

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Marco]

The other one to consider, Oliver, is the DL-103Pro, expertly and sympathetically 'tuned' by Highphonic (all ex-Denon employees):

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HIGHPHONIC-MC-Cartridge-DL-103-PRO-Free-Shipping-EMS-Tracking-Number/262900362432?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.M BE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49131%26meid%3D614cc9e4fcc24b6 4b7ece0be095b002c%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D 6%26sd%3D162740386737&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

These sound FAB (comparable with some NOS varieties), with an extended high-frequency response, up to 55 kHz [lighter tracking also], and way better than any currently produced stock item. Under your budget, too :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Stephen,


I’m currently using a Denon DL-S1 with a Denon AU-S1 SUT and this combo is the best I have ever heard.


Interesting that you consider the DL-S1 better than Dom's custom-built jobbie... Any views on that, and specifically in which areas you feel that the 'S1' trumps it? I've always highly rated the AU-S1 SUT, but so far have neglected to obtain one. Might be a Christmas pressie for me this year! ;)

It would be interesting comparing an AU-S1, with an HA-500, using an 'S1' cartridge as the reference point....


I use a Mint Tractor to setup the DL-S1 and I track at the max recommended VTF of 1.5g and virtually no anti skate. Took hours to get it right but it rewards patience.


Watch the virtually no anti-skate bit, as through time you may notice that the cantilever has been 'pulled' to one side and become a little bent. This doesn't usually affect the sound (unless really bad), but it's annoying. Have you checked for that recently?

Best way is to remove the headshell and look at the cartridge, face-on from the underneath, and see whether it's leaning a little to one side. However, I fully agree with the 1.5g (max) VTF, as that's where it sounds best.

Too many people make the mistake of trying to track cartridges with minimum VTF, under the misapprehension of decreasing record wear, when they should be starting at the top end of the manufacturer's recommended range, and working down to what sounds best, which is why DL-103s sound best tracking at 2.65g, with 2.5g anti-skate.

The fact is, NOTHING (apart from a very worn stylus) is worse for inducing record wear than a stylus not sitting snugly inside the grooves and skipping about the place, no matter how little, which can happen with too light a downforce.

Also, a conical stylus has a bit fat tip, so even when tracking at 2.5g and above, as long as it's in good condition, will potentially cause less record wear than a fine-line stylus (which digs deeper into grooves) tracking at 1.5g!


So to echo Marco the setup and partner kit is crucial with these Denons.


It honestly is. It's such a shame though that Denon decided to discontinue the DL-S1, as it's a VERY special cartridge, capable of competing with and sometimes outperforming the best at almost any price - and to think it originally sold for a measly £500!! Bonkers :mental:

But that's Denon for you, and the 'economies of scale' factor....

Marco.

[Bigman80]

It's definitely on my radar but with the peripheral gear needed i dont think its going to be the right time to dive in. I haven't got a Valve MM stage or a headamp etc. I am going to keep my eye on things and your input has been invaluable, Marco.

The Vienna is going to be my first choice having heard it in my system and knowing the history of it. Also the seller is a really good guy. Very trust worthy.

[CageyH]

There was a 103Pro for sale on here a while ago.
I have a 103 C1 (which Marco sold me) but I have to say that I much prefer my Techne-Audio modified 103.
It is superb. My AT33PTG/II did not get much of a look in for quite a while.
It gives you the 103 “soul” but with more detail.

[worrasf]

Hi Marco
The NWA 103 was very detailed with a lovely mid range and tracked great - musical presentation was “effortless” but for all that it lacked a certain “presence” and sounded a little “thin and recessed” - no matter how I played with the setup and SUT’s (didn’t have the AU-S1 then) I couldn’t “flesh it out” to the sound I was after. The S1 changed all that. It does everything the NWA did but sounds so much bigger and more lifelike. There’s no doubt the AU-S1 brings out the best in it particularly with better/faster bass and detail yet it still has the sort of presentation you could listen to for extended periods without fatigue.
Regarding antiskate I’m following the Soundsmith approach and setting so the stylus ever so slowly drifts inwards when “playing” grooveless vinyl. With all other carts I’ve used this usually translated to anti skate between 1.5 & 2.5 but with the S1 it’s about 0.5. It tracks the HFN disc with ease. No issues with the cantilever.
The SUT is stunning - built like a battleship. There are regularly a few on eBay (I got mine from Samurai electronics in Japan - reasonable price but the import duty stings[emoji46]
Steve



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

There was a 103Pro for sale on here a while ago.
I have a 103 C1 (which Marco sold me) but I have to say that I much prefer my Techne-Audio modified 103.
It is superb. My AT33PTG/II did not get much of a look in for quite a while.
It gives you the 103 “soul” but with more detail.I might get hold of Alan's if I can and give it a whirl. Who knows lol

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Marco]

There was a 103Pro for sale on here a while ago.
I have a 103 C1 (which Marco sold me) but I have to say that I much prefer my Techne-Audio modified 103.


Yes, and that's fine, but look at the arm you use... It's a great arm, but not ideally suited to getting the best from a low-compliance cartridge ;)

Fit your C1 onto the likes of an FR-64, and try the same test again... But trouble is, that might not suit your T/T, or indeed your sonic proclivities. Vinyl replay: it's a synergy thing... :exactly:

Marco.

P.S Stephen, I'll come back to you later.

[walpurgis]

I might get hold of Alan's if I can and give it a whirl. Who knows lol

Good idea.

[CageyH]

Yes, and that's fine, but look at the arm you use... It's a great arm, but not optimally suited to getting the best from a low-compliance cartridge ;)

Fit your C1 onto the likes of an FR-64, and try the same test again... But trouble is, that might not suit your T/T, or indeed your sonic proclivities. Vinyl replay: it's a synergy thing... :exactly:

Marco.

P.S Stephen, I'll come back to you later.

With the big fat brass head shell weight, it seems to work fine.

[Marco]

Oh it'll work fine all right and sound great, but it won't be optimised for it.

That's the difference, Kev, which is propbably partly why you prefer the sound of your Techne-Audio modified 103, which I presume is fitted with a 'fancy tip'? ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

There was a 103Pro for sale on here a while ago.


Yes, it was Frog and Oatcakes' one, which if still for sale will be a great cartridge.

Marco.

[paulf-2007]

Ok, the first thing you should know, in relation to DL-103s, is that since Denon stopped trading as Nippon Columbia [later Denon Ltd] in 2002, and merged with Marantz Japan INC, the core design of the 103 changed [a move from using Alnico to rare-earth magnets in the generator], done in order to save costs and maintain the relatively low selling price for what is a high-quality MC cartridge.

The only reason the currently produced models sell for what they do (and those before it), rather than five times the amount, which would be more realistic considering the performance on offer, is because of economies of scale, due to Denon being a HUGE Japanese corporation. Therefore, you simply cannot judge this cartridge on its retail price.

It's 'cheap' because of the above, and because tens of thousands of them have been produced since it was first introduced in 1958, mainly for radio stations and broadcasting houses throughout the world, but mostly in Japan, for the NHK - the Japanese equivalent of the BBC, so they needed to be in plentiful supply when replacements were required.

If it hadn't been for the above, and if the same cartridge had been produced by a 'high-end' cartridge manufacturer, with a desirable 'badge' amongst audiophiles, and housed in a quality aluminium body, it would've sold for around £1k. Therefore, it has to be used and judged in that context. One of the biggest mistakes people make is thinking of it as a 'budget' £200 cartridge (due to its price tag), and so a) not treating it seriously, and b) not spending enough on partnering ancillaries, especially tonearm and phono stage.

This is a cartridge that really needs to be treated seriously and used in a certain way, in order to get the most from it, and hear what all the fuss is about, in terms of its following/cult status amongst discerning listeners worldwide - and the sonic rewards of doing so are significant. I'll get to how best to achieve that shortly.

Ok, let's go back to how the design of the 103 was changed in the early 2000s, and Denon then abandoning their use of Alnico magnets, in favour of a less expensive variety of rare-earth magnets... There are those that would say a 'magnet is a magnet', and so as long as it performs its primary function, it shouldn't matter which one is used. When it comes to things like cartridges and loudspeakers, however, I'd beg to differ.

However, I'll leave the technical folks (and anyone else interested) to debate that one, but what others and I who've been using DL-103s (of various forms), for the last 30-odd years can clearly hear, is a marked difference in sound between DL-103s produced pre-2002 (using Alnicos), and post-2002, when they didn't. I can go into that in more detail for anyone who's interested, but trust me, the difference (musically) isn't subtle!

Therefore, what that essentially means is that unless you've actively sought to obtain a NOS (or good condition 2nd hand one), from the 'golden era', then the 103 you're listening to now isn't the 'real McCoy'...

And that's one of the reasons why, when buying a DL-103 it pays to check the serial number, because sometimes old stock items, lying forgotten in warehouses somewhere, can often show up for sale on the likes of ebay - AND also one of the reasons why limited edition ones sound best, because they were produced during the 'Alnico era'.

The other important reason is because they all featured the use of improved, high-quality body-shells - and so it is the plastic shell, used on all entry-level 103s, that is *the* single most limiting factor, in terms sonic performance. Not the stylus*, tip, suspension or anything else [*only when in certain circumstances Denon chose to fit elliptical styli]. Denon themselves knew that the plastic shell was the main limiting factor (as that's mainly where costs were cut to keep the price down), which is why they addressed that area on their limited edition cartridges.

What they didn't do with those models was fit 'fancy tips' [fine-line styli], which yes in some areas improves matters (namely ultimate detail retrieval and lower distortion), if you go for one of the many 'tarted up' versions for sale, but also subsequently (and fundamentally) changes the sound, with as some have said already, losing the 'soul' and inherent musical abilities of the cartridge in the process, and what makes it special.

If you're the type of listener who tunes into [and gets excited about] twinkling 'airy highs' and filigree detailing, and prefer cartridges with those traits, along with a lighter, brighter sound [count me out, which is why I haven't done it], then by all means fit a 'fancy stylus', FG or whatever, to a 103, but in doing so realise that you'll have lost some of the soul, bass authority and 'boogie factor' with it, as the tone (and musical nature) of the cartridge changes fundamentally when the original stylus is replaced for something 'better'.

That's the trade-off, which always exists in some form with audio. It largely depends, however, on how you assess sound in a hi-fi context, and also what type of music you listen to mostly, as to whether or not you'll fall in love with a 'pimped 103'.

The sensible money (and considerable experience) says that retaining all else but the plastic body-shell (and perhaps upgrading the internal wiring to LC-OFC), along with the stock shell, to one using a less resonant material, is the way to go. That's why Denon did precisely that with the DL-103SA, and others before it. Now which type of shell you choose is the fun part! Because there are so many options...

Just bear in mind that there are fundamental sonic differences between wood and metal, and then from one type of wood and metal to another!! ;) So experimenting and listening is the only way to discover what's best for you, although in that respect I can provide some basic pointers.

So to sum things up for Oliver, and any other potential buyers of a DL-103... If you want to hear what one is truly capable of, then it *must* be NOS pre-2002, and preferably either an M, SA (introduced after 2002 but uses Alnicos), GL or C1. There are some other good ones too, such as the D and FL, but they sound quite different.

Plus, there is the truly superb DL-S1, and 'giant-killer' supreme (my main and favourite cartridge) but that's a rather different beast! And now unfortunately discontinued. Also, forget about hearing any of the above cartridges properly unless you have the following items in place to use them with:

1) A high-quality D/D turntable (SL-1200, SP10, Pioneer PL-71, or any of Pioneer's, Denon's, Toshiba's or Sony's best efforts from the 70s).

2) A high-quality high-mass detachable headshell tonearm (such as those from the likes of Fidelity Research, Ortofon and Audio Technica, or Jelco).

3) Or a medium-mass 'lossy' tonearm, such as Denon's own and from other Jap manufacturers, or the likes of a NOS Linn LVV), fitted with a high-mass headshell (preferably constructed from magnesium). The high-mass bit is crucial (the magnesium bit less so, but definitely better), and in terms of mass, I'm talking minimum 18g for the headshell alone!

4) A top-notch valve MM phono stage.

5) A top-notch moving-coil head amplifier (or SUT), which loads the cartridge correctly and provides sufficient gain. However, in my experience 103s work best actively, with head amps. The Denon HA-500 is a good choice, and at the other end of the pricing scale, the popular little Lentek unit, or the likes of a Rothwell Headspace.

And last, but certainly not least, set the cartrdge up with forensic attention to detail, in terms of optimising VTA, azimuth and VTF (downforce) - and there, always aim for the higher end of the recommended user range. Also, always use non-magnetic stainless steel allen bolts to secure the cartridge to the headshell, nipped up tightly, and good quality lead wire. The thin wires you get 'free' with basic headshells are crap, and act as a significant bottleneck.

If you can't put all (or most) of the above in place, then FORGET all about hearing any DL-103 properly!!

Bloody hell, it's lunchtime now.... :eek::D Anyway, hopefully all this will be useful info.

Marco.thanks Marco....well I did ask so no complaints about the length of your post.

[Ali Tait]

Another vote for the DL S1 if you can find one Oliver, it is a pig to set up but a superb cart. I'd still be using mine if I hadn't bought the Benz Gullwing.

[Bigman80]

Another vote for the DL S1 if you can find one Oliver, it is a pig to set up but a superb cart. I'd still be using mine if I hadn't bought the Benz Gullwing.Cheers Ali, I'm going Ortofon now and Denon later as an additional cartridge. The removable headshell gives me that freedom so I'll take advantage of it. I want to get a head amp, probably the Denon HA-500 And get it fettled by the Guru that is Phonomac! Then I'll look into cartridges and phonostages again, although, I can't even imagine getting rid of the Jolida. It's just soooo good. Cue ridicule!

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[CageyH]

Oh it'll work fine all right and sound great, but it won't be optimised for it.

That's the difference, Kev, which is propbably partly why you prefer the sound of your Techne-Audio modified 103, which I presume is fitted with a 'fancy tip'? ;)

Marco.

Shibata tipped Boron cantilever.
It sounds mighty fine yo my ears.

[Jimbo]

The DL S1 is superb Oli, I have heard a couple now and they are amazing although very low output and need good head amp or really good MC phonostage. I recon they would be good into a great MM phono via a very well matched SUT.

I have seen them going for around £500 so they are in your budget! Northwest Analogue had one for sale recently which had been completely overhauled but not sure his much or indeed if it's still for sale.

If you could hear Marcos you will be impressed, it has the dynamics and bite you are looking for. A very different beast to the 103 or 103r.

Probably the best MC cartridge I have ever heard at any price.

[Jimbo]

Just had a quick look err they are going for $1000 now so maybe bit too pricey unless you can get a second hand one?

[Bigman80]

Yep, I am now thinking this could be some time off :)

[Floyddroid]

I read it's slightly warm sounding? Is that in line with your experience?

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No it certainly isn't. In fact i would say it's an up front sound if anything. I have had three and i will likely as not get another one. I have had a few high end cartridges and to be honest i think a lot of them are bollocks.

[RobbieGong]

No it certainly isn't. In fact i would say it's an up front sound if anything. I have had three and i will likely as not get another one. I have had a few high end cartridges and to be honest i think a lot of them are bollocks.

:lol:

[Bigman80]

Love that honesty!!

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[RobbieGong]

Love that honesty!!

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Indeed :)

[Marco]

Steve's quite right, simply because many of them are not only overpriced, but overly analytical sounding and a-musical, designed simply to appease the sensibilities of 'audiophiles' playing their 17 different pressings of 'Kind of Blue' and one test record!

There you go... Yet more honesty ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

thanks Marco....well I did ask so no complaints about the length of your post.

No worries, Paul. Hope you found it useful :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Shibata tipped Boron cantilever.
It sounds mighty fine yo my ears.

It will (if you enjoy that type of presentation). However, it's essentially no longer a DL-103... Also, it'll no longer need as much mass to perform optimally, as the compliance will have been altered, so if I were you I'd try backing off the mass a little (by using a lighter headshell weight) and see how it sounds then. You may prefer it ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

It's definitely on my radar but with the peripheral gear needed i dont think its going to be the right time to dive in. I haven't got a Valve MM stage or a headamp etc. I am going to keep my eye on things and your input has been invaluable, Marco.


No worries, mate. That's what we're here for! Sensible plan, btw :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Stephen,


The NWA 103 was very detailed with a lovely mid range and tracked great - musical presentation was “effortless” but for all that it lacked a certain “presence” and sounded a little “thin and recessed” - no matter how I played with the setup and SUT’s (didn’t have the AU-S1 then) I couldn’t “flesh it out” to the sound I was after.


Indeed, and that's the problem with fitting a fine-line stylus to a 103, as whilst detail retrieval is increased and distortion lowered, you lose 'body' from the sound and some of that rather infectious 'phat-bass authority', which provides the foundation for it to boogie like a bastard! ;)

Essentially, fitting a fine-line stylus 'sanitises' the sound too much, diluting the 103's renowned fun-factor in the process, and robbing it of some bass weight. In that respect, an AU-S1 would've solved little, as the 'damage' has been done earlier in the chain.


The S1 changed all that. It does everything the NWA did but sounds so much bigger and more lifelike. There’s no doubt the AU-S1 brings out the best in it particularly with better/faster bass and detail yet it still has the sort of presentation you could listen to for extended periods without fatigue.


You'll get zero listening fatigue with a DL-S1, simply because its balance has been so well judged, therefore it can extract all the detail from recordings, whilst sounding very spacious and open at the top end, and in that respect perform like a truly high-end MC, but without ever sounding 'etched' or analytical.

One of the main things responsible for its addictive musical sound is the use of high-purity gold wire (mixed with 6N copper) in the coil windings, similar to that found in the DL-103GL (Gold Limited), but there are other important aspects to the design of the DL-S1, such as the construction of the 'special elliptical' stylus, which behaves in a similar way to a fine-line, but without its disadvantages (such as you've outlined).

It really is a fabulous thing, which has been very cleverly engineered by a company with the knowledge and wherewithal to make truly great cartridges at sane prices, and I'm so glad that I bagged one before they were discontinued!


Regarding antiskate I’m following the Soundsmith approach and setting so the stylus ever so slowly drifts inwards when “playing” grooveless vinyl. With all other carts I’ve used this usually translated to anti skate between 1.5 & 2.5 but with the S1 it’s about 0.5. It tracks the HFN disc with ease. No issues with the cantilever.


As long as all is well, that's cool.


The SUT is stunning - built like a battleship. There are regularly a few on eBay (I got mine from Samurai electronics in Japan - reasonable price but the import duty stings

Yeah, I've bought stuff from Samurai before, and he's excellent. I know how good the AU-S1 is, so will no doubt treat myself to one at some point soon. My reluctance up until now is because I've gone down the head amp route in recent times, with great success, but it might be time to add a top-notch SUT to the equation that I know is specifically designed to optimise the DL-S1, which is what employing the use of an SUT is all about! :cool:

Marco.

[CageyH]

It will (if you enjoy that type of presentation). However, it's essentially no longer a DL-103... Also, it'll no longer need as much mass to perform optimally, as the compliance will have been altered, so if I were you I'd try backing off the mass a little (by using a lighter headshell weight) and see how it sounds then. You may prefer it ;)

Marco.

I find the comment about it no longer being a DL-103 mildly amusing coming from the master of modifications. ;)
When using the modified DL-103 there is no additional headshell weight. It weighs over 20g so backing the weight off is not possible.

[Marco]

Lol, yes, but have you ever seen me using a modified 103? ;)

Ok, so the added mass has been built into the cartridge itself, fair enough. Have you tried adding the same level of mass to your C1? If not, it'll defo benefit from it :)

Marco.

[CageyH]

Pretty much the same mass. The additional mass was made specifically to run a DL-103 on the Funk arm.

[Marco]

H'okay dokes :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Post #59 'The Gen on DL-103s' has been tidied up a little, with some new info added, for anyone interested :)

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Ok, the first thing you should know, in relation to DL-103s, is that since Denon stopped trading as Nippon Columbia [later Denon Ltd] in 2002, and merged with Marantz Japan INC, the core design of the 103 changed [moving from using Alnico to rare-earth magnets in the generator], carried out in order to save costs and maintain the current relatively low selling price, for what is a high-quality MC cartridge.

The only reason the currently produced models sell for what they do (and those before it), rather than five times the amount, which would be more realistic considering the performance on offer, is because of economies of scale, due to Denon being a HUGE Japanese corporation. Therefore, you simply cannot judge this cartridge on its retail price alone.

It's 'cheap' because of the above, and because more than ten thousand of them have been produced since it was first introduced in 1958, mainly for radio stations and broadcasting studios throughout the world, but mostly in Japan, for the NHK - the Japanese equivalent of the BBC, so they needed to be in plentiful supply when replacements were required.

If it hadn't been for the above, and if the same cartridge had been produced by a 'high-end' cartridge manufacturer, with a desirable 'badge' amongst audiophiles, and housed in a quality aluminium body, it would've sold for at least £1k, perhaps more. Therefore, it has to be used and judged in that context. One of the biggest mistakes people make is thinking of it as a 'budget' £200 cartridge (due to its price tag), and so a) not treating it seriously, and b) not spending enough on partnering ancillaries, especially tonearm and phono stage.

This is a cartridge that really needs to be treated seriously and used in a certain way, in order to get the most from it, and to hear what all the fuss is about, in terms of its reputation and cult status amongst vinyl aficionados worldwide - and the sonic rewards obtained by partnering it correctly are significant. I'll get to how best to achieve that shortly.

Ok, let's go back to how the design of the 103 was changed in the early 2000s, and Denon then abandoning their use of Alnico magnets, in favour of a less expensive variety of rare-earth magnets... There are those that would say a 'magnet is a magnet', and so as long as it performs its primary function, it shouldn't matter which one is used. When it comes to things like cartridges and loudspeakers, however, I'd beg to differ.

However, I'll leave the technical folks (and anyone else interested) to debate that one, but what others and I who've been using DL-103s (of various forms), for the last 30-odd years can clearly hear, is a marked difference in sound between ones produced pre-2002 (using Alnicos), and post-2002, minus such. I can go into that in more detail for anyone who's interested, but trust me, the difference (musically) isn't subtle!

Therefore, what this essentially means is that unless you've actively sought to obtain a NOS (or good condition 2nd hand one), from the 'golden era', then the 103 you're listening to now isn't the 'real McCoy'...

And that's one of the reasons why, when buying a DL-103 it pays to check the serial number, because sometimes old stock items, lying forgotten in warehouses somewhere, can often show up for sale on the likes of ebay - AND also one of the reasons why limited edition ones sound best, simply because they were produced during the 'Alnico era'. The other important reason is because they all featured the use of improved, high-quality body-shells.

Therefore, it is the plastic shell, used on all entry-level 103s, that is *the* single most limiting factor, in terms sonic performance. Not the stylus*, tip, suspension or anything else [*only when in certain circumstances Denon chose to fit elliptical styli]. Denon themselves knew this (as that's where costs had been cut to keep the price down), which is why they addressed that issue in the design of their limited edition cartridges.

What they didn't do with those models was fit 'fancy tips' [fine-line styli], which yes in some areas improves matters (namely ultimate detail retrieval and lower distortion), if you go for one of the many 'tarted up' versions for sale, but also subsequently (and fundamentally) changes the sound, resulting in, as some have noted already, losing the 'soul' and inherent musical abilities of the cartridge in the process, and what makes it special.

If you're the type of listener who tunes into [and gets excited about] twinkling 'airy highs' and filigree detailing, and prefer cartridges with those traits, along with a lighter, brighter sound [count me out, which is why I haven't done it], then by all means fit a 'fancy stylus', FG or whatever, to a 103. But in doing so realise that you'll have lost some of the soul, bass authority and 'boogie factor' with it, as the tone (and musical nature) of the cartridge changes fundamentally, when the original stylus is replaced for something 'better'.

That's the trade-off, which always exists in some form with audio. It largely depends, however, on how you assess sound in a hi-fi context, and also what type of music you listen to mostly, as to whether or not you'll fall in love with a 'pimped 103'.

The sensible money (and considerable experience) says that retaining all else but the plastic body-shell (and perhaps upgrading the internal wiring to LC-OFC), along with the stock shell, to something less resonant, is the way to go. That's why Denon did precisely that with the DL-103SA, and others before it. Now which type of shell you choose is the fun part! Because there are so many options...

Just bear in mind that there are fundamental sonic differences between wood and metal, and then from one type of wood and metal to another!! ;) So experimenting and listening is the only way to discover what's best for you, although in that respect I can provide some basic pointers.

So to sum things up for Oliver, and any other potential buyers of a DL-103... If you want to hear what one is truly capable of, then it *must* be NOS, pre-2002, and preferably either an M, SA (introduced after 2002, but uses generators from old stock), GL or C1. There are some other good ones too, such as the D and FL, but they sound quite different.

Plus, there is the truly superb DL-S1, and 'giant-killer' supreme (my main and favourite cartridge) but that's a rather different beast! And now unfortunately discontinued. Also, forget about hearing any of the above cartridges properly unless you have the following items in place to use them with:

1) A high-quality D/D turntable (SL-1200, SP10, Pioneer PL-71, or any of Pioneer's, Denon's, Toshiba's or Sony's best efforts from the 70s). Or with something truly amazing, as shown here, such as a Trio (Kenwood) L-07D):

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/MnTiKa.jpg

2) A high-quality high-mass detachable headshell tonearm (such as those from the likes of Fidelity Research, Ortofon and Audio Technica, or Jelco).

3) Or a medium-mass 'lossy' tonearm, such as Denon's own and from other Jap manufacturers, or the likes of a NOS Linn LVV), fitted with a high-mass headshell (preferably constructed from magnesium). The high-mass bit is crucial (the magnesium bit less so, but definitely better), and in terms of mass, I'm talking minimum 18g for the headshell alone!

4) A top-notch valve MM phono stage.

5) A top-notch moving-coil head amplifier (or SUT), which loads the cartridge correctly and provides sufficient gain. However, in my experience 103s work best actively, with head amps. The Denon HA-500 is a good choice, and at the other end of the pricing scale, the popular little Lentek unit, or the likes of a Rothwell Headspace.

And last, but certainly not least, set the cartrdge up with forensic attention to detail, in terms of optimising VTA, azimuth and VTF (downforce) - and there, always aim for the higher end of the recommended user range. Also, always use non-magnetic stainless steel allen bolts, to secure the cartridge to the headshell, nipped up tightly, and good quality lead wire. The thin wires you get 'free' with basic headshells are crap, and act as a significant bottleneck.

If you can't put all (or most) of the above in place, then FORGET all about hearing any DL-103 properly!!

Bloody hell, it's lunchtime now.... :eek::D Anyway, hopefully all this will be useful info.

Marco.That Kenwood is a stunner. I'm building a MM Valve phonostage in direct reference to this thread. Boards ordered for the PSU and Phonostage. It's going to take some time due to my incredibly low experience but it will be made with one eye on putting a "Giant Killer" through it.

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[RobbieGong]

Yes indeed - The Kenwood / Trio is a classic, almost over engineered but in the positive sense

[Marco]

That Kenwood is a stunner. I'm building a MM Valve phonostage in direct reference to this thread. Boards ordered for the PSU and Phonostage. It's going to take some time due to my incredibly low experience but it will be made with one eye on putting a "Giant Killer" through it.


Sounds like a good plan, Oliver. Remember also to factor in a quality head amp. Don't rush it, do things right, then strap an 'SA' or 'GL' onto your AT arm, with a top-notch high-mass headshell, and you'll be utterly gobsmacked at the sound (and sorted for life for vinyl replay) - or at least until you wear out the needle! :cool:

The Kenwood, and likes of Pioneer Exclusive P3 (shown below with its 'clothes' off), or EMT 950, represent the pinnacle of T/T engineering, and precisely how turntables should be built (if achieving faithfulness to what's contained in the grooves is the goal), and only rivalled today, IMO, by the Continuum Calibrun, at significantly more money (!) - and I know which I'd rather have! ;)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/NwiAV4.jpg

Pure engineering excellence, making most belt-driven turntables sound like toys. It's what we should've all been using, back in the day, instead of dicking about with rubber bands!!!

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Sounds like a good plan, Oliver. Remember also to factor in a quality head amp. Don't rush it, do things right, then strap an 'SA' or 'GL' onto your AT arm, with a top-notch high-mass headshell, and you'll be utterly gobsmacked at the sound, and sorted for life for vinyl replay! :cool:

Marco.We'll see how it goes lol. It's going to take some time !!!!!

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[Marco]

The best things in life are always worth waiting for, mate ;)

Marco.

[petrat]

Agree with all the comments about the 103, and how to use it. My day-to-day cartridge is a 103R, which is in a 20 gram headshell on a very heavy stainless steel arm (FR-64S) ... the heaviness being essential to getting it to work effectively ime. TBH, I wouldn't bother trying it with light/medium mass arms, as that's not what it's designed for.

Here's someone who is playing around with a 103 ... http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=12537
Quote .. "The stock Denon DL-103 has a somewhat tipped-up top-end and a slightly emasculated & unresolved bass response". Makes me wonder if he's ever had one set up properly!

In terms of cartridges for 'normal' arms, I'd seriously consider a moving magnet Audio Note IQ1. It has much the 'body' of something like the103, combined with a good dose of the detail retrieval that better mc's give. It retails for around £340 now. I much preferred it to an AT-33PTG/II, which I found a bit 'insubstantial' in its presentation.

[Marco]

Hi Peter,


Agree with all the comments about the 103, and how to use it. My day-to-day cartridge is a 103R, which is in a 20 gram headshell on a very heavy stainless steel arm (FR-64S) ... the heaviness being essential to getting it to work effectively ime. TBH, I wouldn't bother trying it with light/medium mass arms, as that's not what it's designed for.


Just for the sake of accuracy, I should point out that the DL-103 was originally designed for use on Denon's own 12" broadcast arms (such as the DA-303, shown below), the required mass achieved by their overall effective length, and which featured headshells weighing no more than 8g.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/FEnw9J.jpg

I have that very headshell. Wish I had the arm to match though, and the right turntable to put it on! It's the arm I'd fit to the likes of an SP10, for that true 'beefy' broadcast sound...!

Therefore, when most of us are using 103s on 9" arms, what we need to do is make up for that loss in mass (over a 12" arm), in the headshell used, and also the general design of the partnering arm itself, which is why things such as FR64s work so well. However, you can also overdo the mass, if you use a high-mass headshell on a 12" arm, in which case a 103 will sound rather 'phat' and bloated...

As ever in audio, it's about getting the balance right - and the 'mass factor' with 103s is crucial! :)


Here's someone who is playing around with a 103 ... http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=12537
Quote .. "The stock Denon DL-103 has a somewhat tipped-up top-end and a slightly emasculated & unresolved bass response". Makes me wonder if he's ever had one set up properly!


Lol... Complete nonsense, providing it is partnered and set up properly. I'll read the rest of the article later.

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

IMO, one of the very best arms for MC cartridges especially, is the FR-64S. Sounds wonderful with the Denon.

[Marco]

Agreed, Dave. It's just an all-round very well engineered arm, and most MC carts like a bit of mass, anyway :)

Marco.

[A1000]

Looking at the price range and the description of 'sound' have you considered the Hana SL? THe EL is more in the Denon 103 mould of phat

[Bigman80]

Looking at the price range and the description of 'sound' have you considered the Hana SL? THe EL is more in the Denon 103 mould of phatI haven't. I read the frequency range and decided it wouldn't be as transparent as maybe the AT33PTGII. Its not an exact science, I know.

There is a Goldring Eroica on the way for me to try and there's an Ortofon Vienna due on Tuesday. If none suit, I'll give a Hana a run.

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[Bigman80]

Or a Shelter? Maybe.

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[Marco]

I haven't. I read the frequency range and decided it wouldn't be as transparent as maybe the AT33PTGII.

Oh dear, Oliver, a fatal way to judge how a cartridge sounds! :eyebrows:

"Transparent"? What about musical sounding? Honestly, you guys and your measurements!! ;)

Seconded on the Hana, btw :thumbsup:

Marco.

[anubisgrau]

Marco pointed to the best way to get everything 103 can give - Denon 12" tonearms. I haven't heard 103 before I heard it in DA-308 which is a later model built along the same principles as DA-303, just with better engineering. Whoever likes 103 and sticks with it, should try to find one, those arms are not that costly as Fidelity Research tonearms.

[Marco]

Marco pointed to the best way to get everything 103 can give - Denon 12" tonearms. I haven't heard 103 before I heard it in DA-308 which is a later model built along the same principles as DA-303, just with better engineering. Whoever likes 103 and sticks with it, should try to find one, those arms are not that costly as Fidelity Research tonearms.

Hi Gordan,

I realise that English isn't your first language, but the bit in bold above is confusing... Have you heard a 103 or not? And if not, how do you know how good a DA-308 or DA-303 tonearm is with it? :)

Marco.

[anubisgrau]

hahah sorry marco, i guess it's better i write in my confusing english than in serbian.... i wanted to say i didn't hear what 103 can do before i heard it in 308, it really needs denon arms. is it better :)?

[Marco]

Yup, I get what you mean now, and although I haven't heard one myself, based on what I know about 103s, would tend to agree. In which T/T and system did you hear a 103 on a DA-308? :)

Marco.

[anubisgrau]

Yup, I get what you mean now, and although I haven't heard one myself, based on what I know about 103s, would tend to agree. In which T/T and system did you hear a 103 on a DA-308? :)

Marco.

garrard 401 on a skeleton plinth, tannoy MG, NAT 211 amps, slagle AVC, salas RIAA, A23 SUT.

[Marco]

Nice one. Would loved to have heard that. Was it a system belonging to a friend? :)

Marco.

[anubisgrau]

yes. he passed the deck to another friend and got himself EMT (actually various EMTs - 930 and 948).
IMHO 401/denon combination sounded better but was certainly less user friendly, especially on that silly skeleton plinth.

[Marco]

Superb stuff, Gordan. It's these sort of people, IMO, who make the most interesting hi-fi discoveries! :)

TBH, mainstream, modern hi-fi largely bores the pants off of me, which is why I rarely attend hi-fi shows these days, as it's all a bit 'meh'. Now if they were filled with demos of what you've just described, then that would be a different matter entirely... ;)

Marco.

[neskor]

Just to correct Gordan. It was Denon DA-304 12" tonearm.
Check picture:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/neskor777/20131026_162159_zpswulqcdsi.jpg

[A1000]

Quite lovely Which spew is that?

[Jazid]

Quite lovely Which spew is that?Fab auto-correction, even more fab looking arm..

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[A1000]

intentional

[helma]

Ok, the first thing you should know, in relation to DL-103s, is that since Denon stopped trading as Nippon Columbia [later Denon Ltd] in 2002, and merged with Marantz Japan INC, the core design of the 103 changed [moving from using Alnico to rare-earth magnets in the generator], carried out in order to save costs and maintain the current relatively low selling price, for what is a high-quality MC cartridge.

Interesting, this is the first I hear of this, do you have a source for this information? AFAIK the basic DL-103 output voltage and coil resistance specs have stayed the same through it's life, but to keep same output and same coils but change the magnet, wouldn't you have to change everything? Unless they use the exact same magnetic structure but with some sort of alloy to match the magnetic properties of AlNiCo close enough... or changed the wiring of the coils to thinner type to keep same impedance but lower inductance to keep same output with the newer, stronger magnets. Or something. I'm not sure how that stuff works and how easy/difficult that would be to do. Btw. I'm certainly not the type of person who thinks a magnet is a magnet, and while guitarists and hifinuts alike can be sometimes a bit "conservative" and/or batshit crazy about their beliefs, there's a lot of people (myself included) who just haven't quite experienced the same tone from a guitar pickup using magnets other than alnico, not that I've spent that much effort into the subject though.

I believe the biggest reason for the continued affordability of the DL-103 is the ability to keep chugging them out like they've been doing for decades, and especially since 2002 I doubt their production rate is that high, so it would seem on the surface of it than any major change would be more cost than profit. I'm not trying to dispute what you say, just would love to learn more of this and my google searches on the subject turned up pretty dry, other than some speculation on this very forum :) And even if they kept the same magnetic structure, wouldn't be surprised if they changed something else with the ownership change - or the magnets if it's a change they could get away with without redesign. Btw. if I'm not mistaken (which i very well might be...) AlNiCo magnets are not entirely stable overtime, so it seems likely a cartridge manufactured 30 years ago would sound different than a new one even if they were identical.

[karma67]

can you get a denon 103 to work on a 16g ef tonearm with an added 3g mass on the headshell end?

[paulf-2007]

can you get a denon 103 to work on a 16g ef tonearm with an added 3g mass on the headshell end?
Yes, I have used 103 and 103r on my stax with some added mass on the headshell.