View Full Version : Super Tweeters - Fact or Flights of Fancy?
twelvebears
18-02-2010, 18:24
Thoughts chaps?
Does any one own a pair and/or have experience with them?
S.
The Vinyl Adventure
18-02-2010, 18:30
I been reading about them recently too, I'd like to have a go with a pair if they were cheaper ... The logical bit of my brain says that surly they just add to treble in the audible frequency they cover and then how can they possibly add somthing above the frequencys that a cd produces... But then the other part of my brain says balls to logic, everything that is available on the Internet to read about these things says good things so they must do something... Right??
I'm kinda suprised marco doesn't have some of those tannoy st**'s on top his speakers ...
One of my pals is running a pair of Cambridge R50s. They use the famous Kef set up similar to Linn Isobarik (B139 oval solid styrene bass driver, B110 and T27's like in LS3/5a) but they also run ribbon supertweets.He's changed both the tweets to ? and supertweets to ? expensive ribbons. He swears by them. I've heard them and his system is fantastic. As to if the supertweets make a differerence I don't know. I've read that the extended range at the top can give the impression of extended lower freq response but I cannot comment as his the R50's are TL and go down way low in any case. I've often wondered if the likes of Townshend supertweets are really worth the pricetag or if it is largely hype?!?!?:scratch:
Like all things, I suppose it depends on the rest of the system.
All my friends (some of them objectivists, I must say) who have supertweeters can't live without.
The problem is that once you put them, there's no going back : in that, they all agree. :)
Rare Bird
18-02-2010, 19:00
Coles 4001. best ever super tweeter
The Grand Wazoo
18-02-2010, 19:15
I played around with some Coles a few years back - don't know how they'd compare to the new breed of modern ones though.
Ali Tait
18-02-2010, 19:36
They definately seem to add air and space.At one of our DIY do's,a pair was tried with some DIY Jericho horns,using a Fostex fullrange driver,and the difference was not subtle, very obvious.As Dimitri says,you won't go back!
My hearing goes upto about 16-17kHz. I physically cannot hear anything above that, so supertweeters cannot possibly make any difference to the sound I hear, even if the material I play has higher frequencies recorded.
But there again, I am not ashamed to say that no matter how much I try I cannot hear any difference between 32kHz and 44.1kHz, or 48kHz (given the same high quality source material), despite being able to hear differences in quality elsewhere in the chain, and between different Dacs. I accept that some can, but I also feel that many people can't, they are just too ashamed to say so.
Needless to say, I will not be buying any supertweeters this side of a lottery win!
Kris.
Rare Bird
18-02-2010, 19:48
I played around with some Coles a few years back - don't know how they'd compare to the new breed of modern ones though.
Celestion 'HF1300', Coles '4001' combination Spendor 'BC1'/'2', B&W 'DM2'/'4' etc
My hearing goes upto about 16-17kHz. I physically cannot hear anything above that, so supertweeters cannot possibly make any difference to the sound I hear, even if the material I play has higher frequencies recorded.
But there again, I am not ashamed to say that no matter how much I try I cannot hear any difference between 32kHz and 44.1kHz, or 48kHz (given the same high quality source material), despite being able to hear differences in quality elsewhere in the chain, and between different Dacs. I accept that some can, but I also feel that many people can't, they are just too ashamed to say so.
Needless to say, I will not be buying any supertweeters this side of a lottery win!
Kris.You should try. All the people I know can't hear much above 14kHz either.
Can't comment easily about the sample rate differences, there are too many variables involved. I can say that I can't hear them through headphones, though. It's easier through speakers, and easier if you don't necessarily look for them. ;)
hifi_dave
18-02-2010, 20:03
It's a well known fact that you can't hear much above 15Khz but you can certainly hear a super tweeter in operation - it adds air and space and is difficult to do without once you have heard it.
Back in the early 80's I used to have a pair of cheapo Piezo super-tweets on flying leads with croc clips on the end. I used to tack them on to any and every speaker I got my hands on and most agreed that it was an improvement. I don't think it cost more than 8 quid to do....:)
I should just add that I'm open minded about it, just extremely sceptical. . . .
Ali Tait
18-02-2010, 20:45
So was I till I heard it for myself.
I should just add that I'm open minded about it, just extremely sceptical. . . .
I find this a sane attitude Kris, I'm the same as you. But when I see some hardcore objectivists use them, my logic gets alerted. ;)
Myself I postponed buying supertweeters because I had more severe problems to address with my system.
Myself I postponed buying supertweeters because I had more severe problems to address with my system.
Yeah, I know the feeling. Lack of speaker terminals on the Dansette . . .:eyebrows:
Anyone got any comments on these
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Tannoy-Prestige-ST-50-SuperTweeter-5yr-Gte-Pair_W0QQitemZ330390970802QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Au dioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers?has h=item4cecd621b2
The look nice but thats normally enough for me!!!:lolsign:
The Coles super tweeters in my BC2's do still work, although they're wired out of phase with the HF1300 in an attempt to reduce the 14KHz resonance in the Celestions.. To be honest, they just help hf dispersion a tad, but little else..
I read and saw measurements on the Tannoy super-tweeter pods, which actually came in at a perfectly audible 8 - 10KHz and only went out to 28KHz or so before rolling out. I suspect their main function is to smooth out the wayward pepperpots in the main drivers or, bearing in mind the prestige series sound so mellow, to liven things up a little..
Stratmangler
18-02-2010, 21:54
Ali
Have you heard Colin's ESL63's with the Fostex supertweeter ?
The combination took a fair bit of tweaking to get right, but they sound absolutely stunning.
I last heard them being driven by Nick's 211 amp, and the combination was just awesome.
Chris:)
63's don't need a supertweeter, not if they're angled back and raised off the floor a foot or two... :confused:
Ali Tait
18-02-2010, 22:04
Chris,no I haven't.Perhaps he'll bring them to Owston.
Dave,have you tried supertweeters with 63's?
Stratmangler
18-02-2010, 22:09
63's don't need a supertweeter, not if they're angled back and raised off the floor a foot or two... :confused:
They are on stands raised off the floor and angled slightly back, and defineately benefit with the HF help. The HF units are very attenuated, and roll in around 12kHz (ie just where the Quads are rolling off).
Chris:)
Stratmangler
18-02-2010, 22:11
Ali
Colin's on his Tang Band project at the moment; I think we're more likely to see these than the Quads.
Chris:)
Filterlab
18-02-2010, 22:37
When I had my Martin Logans some years back, I had a pair of Townshend super tweeters on loan (Max lives just down the road from me). It was strange, they added not only a little more air as one would expect, but they also added mid and bass clarity. I can't really explain why. I didn't go for them in the end despite the positives, the imaging was so good on the MLs that when the supertweeters were added the imaging became more two dimensional, and that was too big a price to pay.
Had I have wanted more crispness only, then the supertweeters would have been a superb addition, with the benefits of added clarity further down the scale, but repositioning the angle of the stators cured the slightly muffled presentation (take the word slightly as 'infinitesimally'). Very expensive too at £800 a pair.
**EDIT** They now seem to be £499 per pair.
Stratmangler
18-02-2010, 23:06
Very expensive too at £800 a pair.
**EDIT** They now seem to be £499 per pair.
There's probably still a lot of fat in the bottom line at £499.
Chris;)
The Grand Wazoo
19-02-2010, 00:44
I found after a while that I could get a good proportion of the effect of the Coles from using open baffles (the air and ambience side of things) and later I discovered my current Mirage speakers which do the same sort of thing but add bass.
I'd completely agree with the effect that they have on the lower regions - completely inexplicable to a logical mind!
An impeded ability to hear high frequencies will most certainly not mean that super tweeters will do nothing for you.
I use a pair of CTS Powerline piezos to give my fullrangers a bit more sparkle at the top end.I remember seeing a pair on top of Jimmy Hughes Impulse speakers i HiFi Answers many years ago.
Filterlab
19-02-2010, 11:05
There's probably still a lot of fat in the bottom line at £499.
Chris;)
I don't doubt that for one second mate! :)
electric beach
19-02-2010, 12:56
It's a well known fact that you can't hear much above 15Khz but you can certainly hear a super tweeter in operation - it adds air and space and is difficult to do without once you have heard it.
Back in the early 80's I used to have a pair of cheapo Piezo super-tweets on flying leads with croc clips on the end. I used to tack them on to any and every speaker I got my hands on and most agreed that it was an improvement. I don't think it cost more than 8 quid to do....:)
My understanding is that the effect of supertweeters has more to do with how we process and perceive sound, rather than extending the audible spectrum. It's the same for sub bass, but you notice and feel the inaudible vibration more readily . The processing of real sound (as opposed to reproduced sound) by the human 'DAC' must consider these vibrations which are detected by the body - converting sound vibrations to a perceived 'realistic' sound.
These cheap Piezo horn supertweeters are still available from Maplin; they just need a resistor in line to minimise the output and you can have a play for less than £10. I used them on TDL transmission line floorstanders for years and they did as much for bass texture and tone as they did for creating additonal air and space - I felt they just made the reproduced sound for all frequencies more real!
I'll try to find the Jimmy Hughes article and post it.
These cheap Piezo horn supertweeters are still available from Maplin; they just need a resistor in line to minimise the output and you can have a play for less than £10. I used them on TDL transmission line floorstanders for years and they did as much for bass texture and tone as they did for creating additonal air and space - I felt they just made the reproduced sound for all frequencies more real!
Ok, I'm up for it at that price. What's the resister value?
I'll try to find the Jimmy Hughes article and post it.
On condition I don't have to turn up the corners of my curtains with safety pins. :lol:
Filterlab
19-02-2010, 14:03
These cheap Piezo horn supertweeters are still available from Maplin; they just need a resistor in line to minimise the output and you can have a play for less than £10.
These ones?:
Link image
http://www.maplin.co.uk/images/300/wf56l.jpg (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=3265)
What resistor value would you use?
electric beach
19-02-2010, 14:31
No idea of the value, I'll find the article this evening.
I think there were two elements actually, the second to limit the lower frequency cut off, but in a very simple way.
No further trickery required!
Ali Tait
19-02-2010, 17:01
Ali
Colin's on his Tang Band project at the moment; I think we're more likely to see these than the Quads.
Chris:)
Aye I know,he's got plenty room in the car though! :)
Stratmangler
19-02-2010, 19:07
Aye I know,he's got plenty room in the car though! :)
Yes I know, but that then means dragging the GM70 SE Monos to drive the Quads.......
I think the best thing to do is just ask if he can bring them along.
Chris:)
Rare Bird
19-02-2010, 19:12
http://cgi.ebay.ph/Pioneer-PT-R4-Super-Tweeters-Pair_W0QQitemZ200421124183QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSpeak ers_Subwoofers?hash=item2eaa07a857
The Vinyl Adventure
19-02-2010, 20:09
No idea of the value, I'll find the article this evening.
I think there were two elements actually, the second to limit the lower frequency cut off, but in a very simple way.
No further trickery required!
id quite like to have a crack at this too!
i dont have the desire to spend hundreds to find out weather or not this supertweeter thing works for me, but id def have a go for less than £10
The Vinyl Adventure
19-02-2010, 20:12
from the maplins web site
This tweeter is designed to give a wide dispersion pattern and is therefore ideal in stereo hi-fi systems and in high quality disco and PA systems. Piezo tweeters are capacitative therefore automatically reject low frequency power and are inherently high impedance. Therefore, this can be wired directly across a woofer without the need for a crossover. Because modern amps can produce very high frequencies (typically up to 100kHz) it is recommended to wire a 47Ω 3W resistor (order code: W47R) in series with each tweeter to limit damaging high frequency resonance.
Just had a look at my piezo crossover 550NF cap with 33 ohm resistor in series with 22ohm across the piezo.I think I got this from the DIYAUDIO archive section a few years ago, seems to do the job .
The Grand Wazoo
19-02-2010, 20:29
If you do get some of these Maplin things, prepare to be get exactly what you pay for. The build quality isn't exactly monumental!
Oh, and if you screw them into a cabinet, don't overtighten them, because they crack easily around the mounting screws.
Rare Bird
19-02-2010, 20:31
Thats right chris, infact some of the expensive ribbons are crap aswell.
Stratmangler
19-02-2010, 20:34
Another thing to consider is getting a steep enough roll off as you go down the frequencies - those tweeters are working from around 4 kHz upwards.
If you cross over to them too low and with too shallow a slope then their effects will be all too audible. And not in a beneficial way.
Chris:)
The Vinyl Adventure
19-02-2010, 20:42
well i would love to have a go at this if anyone is willing to give me very indepth instructions on what bits to get and how to do it!
Rare Bird
19-02-2010, 20:59
Hamish get something like these Tanny ST50 you just plonk onto of your speakers, these particular ones have level & frequency adjustments, quite expensive tho but others make simular
http://www.tannoy.com/ResidentialSummary.aspx#&&/wEXBgUEU1NJRAUCMzAFA1NJZAUCMzAFAkZUBQZzdHJpbnIFA0J hbgUdfi9pbWFnZXMvU2VyaWVzQmFubmVycy8zMC5qcGcFAVQFA UQFA1BJRAUDMTQ49i33dH6kivsSUsaBnpZtj9yMmgQ=
http://83.138.162.162/products/148/st50.pdf
The Grand Wazoo
19-02-2010, 21:01
A bit more than a £10 experiment Andre!
Rare Bird
19-02-2010, 21:04
Can be more than £10 can be more than £10 if you don't know what your doing
The Vinyl Adventure
19-02-2010, 21:10
The ones at £299 on eBay seem to be pretty cheap for those particular units, but I don't have that sorta cash to chuck about at the mo... Hense my interest in spending a tenner!
well i would love to have a go at this if anyone is willing to give me very indepth instructions on what bits to get and how to do it!
Snap.
Kris.
The Vinyl Adventure
19-02-2010, 21:25
come on clever diy folk ... links to bits and how too pictures and diagrams please :)
Dave Hewitt
19-02-2010, 21:25
Hi
I have a pair of these tweeters in the garage somewhere,anyone lives local to Leigh lancs are welcome to them for nowt,in fact there may be 2 pairs for the same price.
Regards Dave.
The Grand Wazoo
19-02-2010, 21:53
Hamish,
I'd love to help, mate but I don't think I'm qualified!
I'm sure someone else has the requisite knowledge - guys?
I have posted this before somewhere but here goes, the tweeters as you know are avialable from Maplins but instead of farting about with resisters just buy a pairs of "L Pads" from
https://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=727&osCsid=7c95893e610df4c4b396869eb397b0cd
You can then wire these and adjust the volume or rolloff point to your hearts content, you will just have to make up some sort of box's to house it all in, this is where i used them
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3341
If i had the spare change i would buy a pair of the Townshend ribbon supertweeters as these are better than the Tannoys or so i have been told by more than one dealer
If anyone is interested, I have four Coles 4001G super tweeters I would be willing to sell.
I'll put some information in Private Exhibitions.
Regards
Rare Bird
20-02-2010, 18:38
Are they black ones Barry?
Are they black ones Barry?
Yes. I've just had a look at them. The boxes are marked 4001L (not G as I stated in my post) and have 15 Ohm impedance.
Regards
The Vinyl Adventure
20-02-2010, 19:07
At the mention of impedance my brain goes plop,bang,fizz.... What do I need to take into account when trying to wire somthing in with my pmc's - without breaking my amplificators?
Ali Tait
20-02-2010, 19:13
15 ohms is fine Hamish.The higher the ohms,the easier the load on the amp.
The Vinyl Adventure
20-02-2010, 19:53
So would barry's coles with one of these lpads satisfy my imediate interest in what these supertweetas do, or would the maplins one do better, or be more worth while as a experiment
crap, I realy do know fuck all sometimes with this hobby,
how much are these coles things worth?
Rare Bird
20-02-2010, 20:02
Yes. I've just had a look at them. The boxes are marked 4001L (not G as I stated in my post) and have 15 Ohm impedance.
Regards
Are you sure? it's the 4001G has the nominal resistance of 15ohm, DC resistance of 23 Ohm.Not an efficient tweeter about 85db
:worthless:
Are you sure? it's the 4001G has the nominal resistance of 15ohm, DC resistance of 23 Ohm.
Hi Andre,
The boxes are most definitely marked 4001L. I bought them from a hydrographical survey company many years ago, as part of a now abandoned project. I think they used them for echo sounders. They claimed the speakers were 15 Ohms. I have the data sheet somewhere, I'll look it out and will measure the DC resistance.
Regards
Rare Bird
20-02-2010, 20:18
Never heard of the 'L' only 'G' (15-Ohm) & 'K' (7-Ohm)..Intresting
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/vintageBC1.htm
Rare Bird
20-02-2010, 20:23
Been brought to my attention that the 'L' may be a plastic faceplate version of the 'G'! I never thought about that.
Hamish they have a frequency range that will reach 35KHz
The Vinyl Adventure
20-02-2010, 20:28
I had a mooch about the place yesterday and it would seem 35Khz is about what is obtainable in terms of hf for reasonable money ... Higher reaponse seems to cost more? Is that fair ... What response wil give good effect?
Stratmangler
20-02-2010, 20:29
So would barry's coles with one of these lpads satisfy my imediate interest in what these supertweetas do, or would the maplins one do better, or be more worth while as a experiment
crap, I realy do know fuck all sometimes with this hobby,
how much are these coles things worth?
The Coles units are next to impossible to get now - I'd suggest using something else and leaving the Coles for someone needing to replace broken originals.
Just my 2p worth.
Chris:)
Rare Bird
20-02-2010, 20:31
I had a mooch about the place yesterday and it would seem 35Khz is about what is obtainable in terms of hf for reasonable money ... Higher reaponse seems to cost more? Is that fair ... What response wil give good effect?
Well unless you're a bat 35kHz is fine enough :lol:
electric beach
21-02-2010, 15:38
My understanding is that the effect of supertweeters has more to do with how we process and perceive sound, rather than extending the audible spectrum. It's the same for sub bass, but you notice and feel the inaudible vibration more readily . The processing of real sound (as opposed to reproduced sound) by the human 'DAC' must consider these vibrations which are detected by the body - converting sound vibrations to a perceived 'realistic' sound.
These cheap Piezo horn supertweeters are still available from Maplin; they just need a resistor in line to minimise the output and you can have a play for less than £10. I used them on TDL transmission line floorstanders for years and they did as much for bass texture and tone as they did for creating additonal air and space - I felt they just made the reproduced sound for all frequencies more real!
I'll try to find the Jimmy Hughes article and post it.
Found the article - I'll scan it next week.
The recommendation is to restrict the frequency range with a 0.01uF capacitor in line. Then limit the output to a homeopathic level of a mere 10 Ohms, wired across the speaker rather than in series.
I jumped the feed directly from the speaker posts.
My suspicion is that it's not so much about the frequencies above our audible range that supertweeters assist with, it's more to do with how they are integrated with the existing tweeter. Bringing in a supertweeter at say 12kHz will add air your sound as you're pumping up the volume at frequencies where your hearing is disappearing.
Primalsea
21-02-2010, 17:35
Bang On Clive!!
If you measure your tweeter response with and without supertweeters connected you will see a huge difference in the measurements. Done right supertweeters even out the tweeter response, especially at the HF roll off.
Rare Bird
21-02-2010, 17:37
Found the article - I'll scan it next week.
The recommendation is to restrict the frequency range with a 0.01uF capacitor in line. Then limit the output to a homeopathic level of a mere 10 Ohms, wired across the speaker rather than in series.
I jumped the feed directly from the speaker posts.
I'd like to see that article be intresting.
btw Hamish speakers will go a lot higher than most upto 25kHz..
twelvebears
21-02-2010, 18:07
Having elicited 7 pages of replies, I should probably admit that my original post was a bit of a leading question, but I wanted to get others' views before I said anything.
I actually owned a pair of Townshend super tweeters and even though I was using them with the Sonus Faber Extremas that I had at the time, I found they had a very definite and positive effect. I was very sceptical initially, especially as the Extremas used one of the very best tweeters available, so I managed to get them on home-trial for two weeks.
The very odd thing is that hardly any sound can be heard from them, they really do seem to impact the whole of the music, but particularly spatial clues at acoustics.
Unfortunately they went at the same time as the Extrema's is a frantic cash-gathering period, however I'm very keen to experiment again.
Rare Bird
21-02-2010, 19:04
Back in my Russ Andrews worshipping days i used a pair of superb Visitation Ribbon tweeters.i used a simple polyprop capacitor in line with em. They were about £100 a pair back then, i don't know how much they are now but these tweeters explained to me why dome tweeters give out nothing but distortion.
http://www.visaton.de/en/high_end/ht_baendchen/mht12_8.html
Stratmangler
21-02-2010, 19:14
Back in my Russ Andrews worshipping days i used a pair of superb Visitation Ribbon tweeters.i used a simple polyprop capacitor in line with em. They were about £100 a pair back then, i don't know how much they are now but these tweeters explained to me why dome tweeters give out nothing but distortion.
http://www.visaton.de/en/high_end/ht_baendchen/mht12_8.html
They're now £135.00 EACH:eek:
Chris
I use these Visaton horns in a 3way OB mated to a fieldcoil midrange xover 7k
they are wonderfull these replaced Visaton ribbons
http://www.visaton.de/en/high_end/ht_horn/tl16h_8.html
Rare Bird
21-02-2010, 21:19
Wow there real nice, i like the light ash hardwood base
hifinutt
21-02-2010, 21:49
tried the townshend but they didn`t do it for me
Filterlab
22-02-2010, 11:59
These have just popped on to the 'Bay in anyone fancies them. (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pair-of-Matching-Coles-4001G-16-Ohm-Supertweeters_W0QQitemZ230439840622QQcmdZViewItemQ QptZUK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpe akers?hash=item35a748eb6e) :)
twelvebears
10-03-2010, 18:16
I've added a pair of Pioneer PT-R4 ribbon super tweets which I got from Japan and I'm very pleased with them.
Excellent looks, built and sound and a fraction of the Townshend ones. In fact they make them look rather home made by comparison, but then high end Japanese gear is always immaculately finished.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-03-2010, 19:43
Piccys steve
Stratmangler
10-03-2010, 19:48
http://userdisk.webry.biglobe.ne.jp/005/564/90/1/IMG_0393.jpg
Chris:)
The Vinyl Adventure
10-03-2010, 19:52
Snazzy!
Rare Bird
11-03-2010, 12:23
I've added a pair of Pioneer PT-R4 ribbon super tweets which I got from Japan and I'm very pleased with them.
Excellent looks, built and sound and a fraction of the Townshend ones. In fact they make them look rather home made by comparison, but then high end Japanese gear is always immaculately finished.
Aye great units, how much did you pay for those if you don't mind about £200?
Those pioneers should work well with your speakers Hamish, they have built in high pass filter with user variable frequency
Type: Ribbon Type Super Tweeter
Frequency range: 9,000Hz - 120,000Hz (HPF 20kHz)
10,000Hz - 120,000Hz (HPF 30kHz)
Built-In Crossover
Average sound pressure level: 90dB
Rated impedance: 6 Ohms
Maximum power: 100W
Dimensions: W100 x H102 x D151.5 mm
Weight: 1.3kg each
The Vinyl Adventure
11-03-2010, 20:10
They looked like they cost more than £200 when I had a mooch about tweb the other day!
I'd love to give something like that a go! Maybe when money permits I should give it a try!!
twelvebears
11-03-2010, 20:25
http://userdisk.webry.biglobe.ne.jp/005/564/90/1/IMG_0393.jpg
Chris:)
Cheers Matey, saved me finding my camera! :cool:
Rare Bird
11-03-2010, 23:59
Go on then how much cutter mi bruvver ?? ;)
twelvebears
12-03-2010, 03:53
They looked like they cost more than £200 when I had a mooch about tweb the other day!
I'd love to give something like that a go! Maybe when money permits I should give it a try!!
Yeah they cost me £390 for the pair inc. shipping and fortunately no customs charges.
not cheap but as I say, they work well, are beautifully made and that's still a lot less than anything from Townshend or Tannoy.
Rare Bird
12-03-2010, 16:44
Am i seeing things or does that say £180.00 ish quid
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%91%E3%82%A4%E3%82%AA%E3%83%8B%E3%82%A2-Pioneer-PT-R4-%E3%83%AA%E3%83%9C%E3%83%B3%E3%83%88%E3%82%A5%E3%8 2%A4%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC/dp/B00009VMFU
HighFidelityGuy
12-03-2010, 17:22
I've been wondering about experimenting with super tweeters.
I have a pair of Vifa units spare from an old project but the impedance is only 4 Ohms, so would that not be suitable in this application? I think THIS (https://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_118_122&products_id=144) is the model.
cheers. :)
Am i seeing things or does that say £180.00 ish quid
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%91%E3%82%A4%E3%82%AA%E3%83%8B%E3%82%A2-Pioneer-PT-R4-%E3%83%AA%E3%83%9C%E3%83%B3%E3%83%88%E3%82%A5%E3%8 2%A4%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC/dp/B00009VMFU
Thats what it looks like to me as well
twelvebears
12-03-2010, 18:13
Am i seeing things or does that say £180.00 ish quid
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%91%E3%82%A4%E3%82%AA%E3%83%8B%E3%82%A2-Pioneer-PT-R4-%E3%83%AA%E3%83%9C%E3%83%B3%E3%83%88%E3%82%A5%E3%8 2%A4%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC/dp/B00009VMFU
No you're correct but they are sold individually, not as pairs. I can confirm this from the fact that mine arrived individually boxed with a set of instructions in each. Weird but true...
Rare Bird
12-03-2010, 18:20
No you're correct but they are sold individually, not as pairs. I can confirm this from the fact that mine arrived individually boxed with a set of instructions in each. Weird but true...
Bloody hell glad you told me that i've been sat here half an hour considering buying those from Amazon
twelvebears
12-03-2010, 18:32
Bloody hell glad you told me that i've been sat here half an hour considering buying those from Amazon
Also worth noting that Amazon have country restrictions and won't ship outside Japan....
twelvebears
12-03-2010, 18:34
Bloody hell glad you told me that i've been sat here half an hour considering buying those from Amazon
They are lovely things though. Thought long and hard about whether to buy them and whether they'd be any good but I've not been disappointed. :eyebrows:
Steve, this is a very nice new avatar !!! :)
(sorry for the OT, guys)
Ali Tait
12-03-2010, 21:46
So have you got better bass and mid now? ;)
Rare Bird
12-03-2010, 22:18
:popcorn:
twelvebears
13-03-2010, 10:40
Steve, this is a very nice new avatar !!! :)
(sorry for the OT, guys)
Why thank you!!!! ;)
Spotted it the other day on a bog and it made me chuckle and I though it quite appropriate.
The Grand Wazoo
13-03-2010, 10:50
Why thank you!!!! ;)
Spotted it the other day on a bog and it made me chuckle and I though it quite appropriate.
Wow!
There are some really artistic cottagers in your neck of the woods! That's nothing like the sort of art I see on bogs round these parts!
Indeed - we get things like: 'Elaine C is a total shag', 'I had a w*nk here 14/2/10', etc, etc, and very occasionally something midly witty such as: 'If you're reading what I've put, you may be pissing on your foot'...
<Snigger> :eyebrows:
Marco.
jantheman
13-03-2010, 20:55
My favourite is 'Beware Limbo Dancers'...
The Grand Wazoo
13-03-2010, 22:43
I always used to like 'Don't put cigarette butts in the urinal unless you want the cleaner to piss in your ashtray'
Haha, yes I remember that one! Sometimes we get budding poets leaving little ditties on walls, such as:
'There was an old whore from Berlin, who had an erormous great quim. It wasn't the size that attracted the flies, but the jelly that hung round the rim'...
Or:
There was an old hillbilly called Hank who went off to the woods for a wank. He came to a bear, who whipped off his pair - now Hank's got no reason to wank'...
Arf! Doncha just lurve quality thread drift :eyebrows:
Marco.
There once was a woman from eeling who had a perculier feeling, she laid on her back and opened her crack and pissed all over the ceiling.
i have many more to share
And we just can't wait to see them, Jon! :lolsign:
Meanwhile here's another 'quality entry':
'There was an old nympho called Jill, who tried dynamite sticks for a thrill - they found bits of her vagina in South Carolina, parts of her tits in Brazil...'
Boom boom! :lol:
Marco.
Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
14-03-2010, 10:48
My favourite is 'Beware Limbo Dancers'...
Don't forget Basketball players :eyebrows:.
Andy - SDDW
Heres another for you then Marco,
There once was a young Plumber from Lea who took his girl for a plumb in the sea, she said stop plumbing theres somebody coming, i know said the plumber tiss me
You're a very mad boy, Jon! :lolsign:
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
14-03-2010, 13:15
I found a book in my dads shelves once called "the lure of the limerick"
http://www.johnnyamerica.net/entry-images/lurelimerick.jpg
cover to cover smuty limericks, very very funny!
Lol... "Dad's shelves", eh? What other, erm, 'material' was there, may I ask? :eyebrows:
Marco.
From Roadhouse (one of my favourite cheesy films, starring Patrick Swazey, God rest his soul) Wade Garrett, Patrick's mentor says in a phone call talking about how rough the place is where he is working as a bouncer:
"This place has a sign hangin' over the urinal that says, 'Don't eat the big white mint'."
twelvebears
19-03-2010, 05:47
Good grief.
OK, that should have been that I spotted it on a blog......
Thoughts chaps?
Does any one own a pair and/or have experience with them?
S.
This thread ended up somewhere else. :)
Just ordered me one of those Townshend supertweeters. Will be cool to check these out! :)
hifi_dave
19-11-2011, 13:08
ONE ?
Wouldn’t you need a power amplifier that extends beyond say 20kHz for a super tweeter make any difference in an otherwise flat response 20Hz to 20 kHz system?
Is there any information past 20kHz on CD’s?
What about records? Can you retrieve anything beyond 20kHz from a record?
I thought very high frequency signals on vinyl caused terrible problems for retrieval and reproduction.
Don’t “ordinary” tweeters cope with 20kHz?
Doesn’t adding another tweeter, super or not, just boost the audible HF range; ruining an otherwise flat response?
Some more explanations here on the Townshend site:
http://www.townshendaudio.com/archives/1048
and here:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue15/supertweeter.htm
Some more explanations here on the Townshend site:
http://www.townshendaudio.com/archives/1048
and here:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue15/supertweeter.htm
Hmmmmm, I think I'll stick to just one the one good quality tweeter per box for now. :eyebrows:
michaelhigh
19-11-2011, 13:47
Radio Shack used to make a supertweeter back in the 70's. It's no longer available but shows up used pretty often on the bay, as there were thousands sold you could source them still if needed. I feel like this: unless you have one main system that's totally complete without any shortcomings they might be superfluous. If your speakers are lacking in the high range, supertweets might be the ticket to getting that upper level extension you're lacking. I had a friend that was attempting to build a pair of PA speakers on an extreme budget back in the late 70's, and with RS woofers and supertweeters, he built some enclosures and placed these on top, to great effect. They couldn't compete with his 1971 Marshall Super Lead 100, but that was a lesson learned about the nature of that particular beast. I'd, getting back to the original topic, pair these tweeters with any box lacking tweeters and expect good if not great results.
Well, I read the blurb in the links again and although the author has valiantly tried to cover his arse with what information may or may not be retrievable from the various mediums he has overlooked one or two very important points.
If your power amp only sends 20kHz max it really doesn’t matter what’s going on at the speaker and source, 20kHz is all the speaker will get.
As far as I can tell the “super tweeter” is just a tweeter with extended frequency response.
Granted a great many “normal” tweeters start to run into problems at the highest frequencies but suppose you have one of these for example
http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/scanspeak-illuminator-d3004660000-446-p.asp
surely power amps don’t go past 30kHz in general.
So, while there may be advantages in tweeter types; ribbon v dome for example and this may have some bearing on the quality of the high frequencies, 30kHz seems near enough bat like to cover human perception and all the stuff about how well produced high frequency sound effects ones perception of lower harmonics etc shaould apply to a single decent tweeter shouldn't it?
Tannoy also make some: http://www.stereofil.no/produkter/hoyttalere/tannoy_st200.html
If they make my system sound even better that is all that counts for me. :)
Reid Malenfant
19-11-2011, 17:23
Well, I read the blurb in the links again and although the author has valiantly tried to cover his arse with what information may or may not be retrievable from the various mediums he has overlooked one or two very important points.
If your power amp only sends 20kHz max it really doesn’t matter what’s going on at the speaker and source, 20kHz is all the speaker will get.
Most power amps will more than likely be less than 3Db down at 50KHz or so, after all we are after as flat a response as possible to at least 20KHz :) As a simple Bessel type filter is used on the amp input (RC network) the response is quite a bit more extended than first might appear.
A decent modern power amp should have a bandwidth that extends to 100KHz - 1Db ensuring a flat response output with hi res files such as 24/192. Most decent quality amps of even the last 20 years should be able to manage that unless excessively filtered possibly due to slew rate limiting ;)
Ah, okay, so when an amp spec says 20kHz frequency response, does that mean that they will actually send higher frequencies to a speaker or am I getting bandwidth and frequency response mixed up? :scratch:
Ah, I have assumed that many power amps are hard limited but this doesn't seem to be the case.
Reid Malenfant
19-11-2011, 17:46
The audio band is generally classed as 20Hz - 20KHz so your amp must be good enough for at least that ;)
With Red Book CD the response will be limited to approximately 22KHz or half of 44.1KHz, there will be no musical information above that frequency. However it can extend down to virtually DC & there is often a heck of a lot of sub 20Hz material on a lot of CDs.
When it comes to SACD, DVDA, certain DVDs/DAT & Blu Rays there is an extended response. In the cast of DAT/DVD this can be to 24KHz. SACD extends it to 50KHz or higher similar to DVDA, though this can be up to 100KHz. Blu Ray can extend things to 96KHz...
You may argue that there are no instruments that produce fundamentals at these frequencies, but you must remember that it's the harmonics that make a flute sound like a flute.
While you may well not have bat ears :eyebrows: Frequencies outside of the range that we can hear do effect frequencies we can here directly by intermodulation. These tiny bits of extra information can have a quite an apparent effect.
I once tried some Fostex super tweeters, they do well for older speakers that have a sharp roll off at say 14 to 16 khz. horns ect...
I used them with a pair of KLH modle sixes and they took over at 16 khz. on up.
But if you are using a pair of modern speakers (single fullrange drivers excluded) they really aren't much use unless you have extreme hearing lose in the higher range but that can be equalized or just switching to a higher sensitivity tweeter of the same outside diameter.
most amps will extend beyond 20khz. but unless you are spinning wax with a really cartridge they won't be any benefit and your ears will have to be very clean and young to hear a 30khz. sound wave any way.
I have a ton of trees just outside my front door and when I was running a pair of sound labs late in the evening bats began flying around the screen door while playing Vivaldi's Four seasons (Spring ).
Nope, I’m quite prepared to accept there are harmonics that are not directly audible to the majority of humans. I’ve seen them on a scope when playing my Sax :eek::doh:
Still not convinced that a decent “ordinary” tweeter won’t reproduce these harmonics up to say 30kHz and I’m extremely skeptical of any sort of human perception beyond this :rolleyes:
Anyway, I certainly wont be forking out £300 to £400 to find out if anything above 30kHz makes my brain go, Ahhhh, bat music. :lolsign:
Edit. I cant help wondering if these harmonics are perceptible then why aren't we all running around clutching our heads because the natural world produces them in abundance never mind all the electronically generated high frequencies that we've surrounded ourselves with.
Reid Malenfant
19-11-2011, 18:04
:lolsign: Most tweeters will be in serious breakup mode from about 20KHz upwards..
Soft domes will start at about 13KHz, but it's fairly innocuous as they are soft & it is damped. Aluminium will start complaining in a nasty way at about 16KHz, Titanium approximately 19KHz...
But Beryllium is way out there at 27KHz 5614
:eyebrows:
:lolsign: Most tweeters will be in serious breakup mode from about 20KHz upwards..
Soft domes will start at about 13KHz, but it's fairly innocuous as they are soft & it is damped. Aluminium will start complaining in a nasty way at about 16KHz, Titanium approximately 19KHz...
But Beryllium is way out there at 27KHz 5614
:eyebrows:
This post is very educational,Is this why people love the old Yamaha's with the Beryllium tweeters?
I am often shocked at the price of these old Japanese speakers.
Look at number 2 ,Yamaha NS 1000 http://forums.audioreview.com/speakers/stereophiles-list-best-top-25-speakers-past-40-years-1885.html
Reid Malenfant
19-11-2011, 18:27
Probably Jeff ;) The midrange is Beryllium as well by the way :)
If you'd have seen my face the first time I got to listen to a pair I think you'd understand, my jaw would have hit the floor if I was close enough :lol:
You need the right type of amp to drive them though, give them the wrong one & they sound bloody awful. They simply show up how bad the amp is :eek:
Hmm, I think it rather depends on the quality of the tweeter ;)
However, I agree that soft domes break up more nicely than metal :eyebrows:
Anyway, dancing time, or in my case this is prolly more like it :fence: with a bit of this:donk:and maybe if i dont trip over much some of this :dance:
What do you guys think about these tweeters.
They are in my speakers.
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/hard-dome-tweeter/audax-tw025a28-gold-dome-tweeter/
http://www.madisound.com/store/manuals/TW025A28.pdf
Do they spec well?
I’ve deleted this comment because I can see some very silly arguments ensuing. :)
bobbasrah
20-11-2011, 16:39
I would argue that despite all scientific evidence to prove we cannot, there are aspects of science which have not yet nailed down what we perceive. I also always thought a super tweeter was something like Stephen Fry. Go figure....
A human super tweeter (Meet Fred)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EiM8Pa91SQ
Reid Malenfant
20-11-2011, 18:10
What do you guys think about these tweeters.
They are in my speakers.
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/hard-dome-tweeter/audax-tw025a28-gold-dome-tweeter/
http://www.madisound.com/store/manuals/TW025A28.pdf
Do they spec well?
Audax make some rather good drive units & I'd say that those look pretty damn good to me :) I'm not sure about the gold plating as it looks a tad bling, though there may well be some sound (:rolleyes:) reasoning behind applying it. Like lead, gold is a very soft metal & will tend to damp the titanium diaphram. Lead oxidizes & it's not particularly good for you, where as gold doesn't oxidize & looks a lot prettier :eyebrows:
Must be a really thin layer of the stuff or the tweeter could never be as sensitive as it appears to be. 104Db @ 0.5m is equivalent to 98Db @ 1m :eek:
Distortion looks to be very low to.. Nice :cool: I just hope a mild contour network was stuffed on the tweeter to lower the output a tad between 8 - 16KHz to bring the whole thing flat. Not too difficult at the end of the day..
I would argue that despite all scientific evidence to prove we cannot, there are aspects of science which have not yet nailed down what we perceive. I also always thought a super tweeter was something like Stephen Fry. Go figure....
Science never really proves anything, it's just there to debunk bad theories :D
Thanks, Mark
They do sound nice, they do bring CD's and lose-less files a little closer to the sound you would expect from a nice LP (lots more sparkle at the top) and not overly in your face.
A big step up from the Vifa soft domes and ring radiators I have had in the passed.
I'm not particularity fond of sound of many metal piston hi frequency drives.
As a sweeping generalisation they are a bit like D Class amplifiers; wonderful until they step out of their comfort zone.
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design2.html
Reid Malenfant
20-11-2011, 19:28
I wouldn't have ever touched one John until I heard The Yamahas. Like yourself I just don't like the colouration caused by breakup ;)
I'm not particularity fond of sound of many metal piston hi frequency drives.
As a sweeping generalisation they are a bit like D Class amplifiers; wonderful until they step out of their comfort zone.
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design2.html
That was a great read,written 10 years ago. Since that time I'm sure some refinement and improvements have been made.
These tweeters sound far better than my Vifa soft domes ever did.
I also had the Vifa 1 inch Ring Radiator tweeters and they really never seemed to smooth out,where in my face and dispersed like a lazer beam.
It sounded like Audax created the soft dome so they must know something about tweeters. OOPS SOUNDS LIKE POLK INTRODUCED THE SOFT DOME,Looks like Audux just refined them.
Things have moved forward a bit since then :)
For most of us mere mortals we would be hard pressed to tell the difference between modern ferro cooled, doped silk composite, dome tweeters and the exotic metal variety.
I’ve always got on well with ScanSpeak mid range and hi range
Well, if you are using CD then it can't be producing anything above 20kHz because there is a brick-wall filter that means no signal exists above 20kHz or below 20Hz.
The last so called super-tweeters I heard were producing huge amounts of output well below 20kHz.
Well, if you are using CD then it can't be producing anything above 20kHz because there is a brick-wall filter that means no signal exists above 20kHz or below 20Hz.
The last so called super-tweeters I heard were producing huge amounts of output well below 20kHz.
I agree, their main function seems to be to boost the upper end of stardard tweeters. The 20kHz+ part being mostly irrelevent.
Reid Malenfant
20-11-2011, 22:36
Well, if you are using CD then it can't be producing anything above 20kHz because there is a brick-wall filter that means no signal exists above 20kHz or below 20Hz.
Sorry Mark, but Red book is capable of less than 1Hz, in fact it can go to DC or as near as damn it :eyebrows: I agree just about with the top end though, nothing doing over 22KHz :rolleyes: 21Khz in a lot of cases with steep rolloff filters & 20KHz still with steep rolloff filters :eyebrows:
It's not perfect...I seem to remember someone or lots of people saying it was :D
I have lots of CDs here that have sub 20Hz output, while you are supposed not to be able to hear it I'd suggest not listening to those that say you can't :lol:
You just need speakers that can reproduce it...
I have speakers that can reproduce it (20Hz) - I just don't have CD (and I'm not likely to either :)).
I understood that the Red Book specification for CD limited its frequency range to 20Hz (but apparently it doesn't) to 20kHz - I know SACD allows output up to 50Khz.
(no need to be sorry Mark, CD isn't my thing and I don't consider myself an expert regarding it)
Good tweeter design means more than the materials used. Some well designed aluminium tweeters are known to have their first break up modes way out of the audible range. Also titanium has been similarly 'engineered' Remember JBLs pleated titanium tweeters? It's simply not true to say that aluminium tweeters begin to break up at 16kh - it's just too sweeping a generalisation.
For a long time I owned a pair of Amphion Xenon three ways - these had a wide bandwidth produced by an all aluminium driver compliment.
I am interested to hear that class D amps are OK within their comfort zone. I guess this depends on how large their comfort zone is... Any amp will sound nasty when driven into clipping. Ive never heard my Tact power amp sound anything other than fantastic, even when driven very hard indeed into my Magneplanars or Sonus Fabers.
Sorry Mark, but Red book is capable of less than 1Hz, in fact it can go to DC or as near as damn it
IIRC, the red book spec stops at 20Hz, it's simply that this part of the spec gets ignored. Just as well as I find CD test tones a great way to speed up the break-in for new woofers. 8Hz being one of the tones I use.
it's a good thread this. I, like Hamish and others, wouldn't mind having a go with some supertweeters but it seems from this thread that you either have Maplins jobbies at 10 quid (got to be crap?) or Pioneer et al top notch from £400 an upwards. Is there no middle ground? Something at 150 notes would be pretty appealing...
it's a good thread this. I, like Hamish and others, wouldn't mind having a go with some supertweeters but it seems from this thread that you either have Maplins jobbies at 10 quid (got to be crap?) or Pioneer et al top notch from £400 an upwards. Is there no middle ground? Something at 150 notes would be pretty appealing...
Fostex made some very nice ones here in the states for Radio Shack,they are branded Realistic, They are a real value and not over priced,watch ebay.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Realistic-Super-Tweeters-40-1310-/200677219352?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item2eb94b5c18#ht_500wt_1361
more Fostex super tweeters
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/super-tweeters/
IIRC, the red book spec stops at 20Hz, it's simply that this part of the spec gets ignored. Just as well as I find CD test tones a great way to speed up the break-in for new woofers. 8Hz being one of the tones I use.
Hi Clive,
I've never experienced 8Hz. Can you actually hear that frequency? or do you sense it a vibration?
Hi Clive,
I've never experienced 8Hz. Can you actually hear that frequency? or do you sense it a vibration?
Can't hear it, can't even feel it (unless I want to destroy the drivers). I can see it though :)
Reid Malenfant
21-11-2011, 17:42
Good tweeter design means more than the materials used. Some well designed aluminium tweeters are known to have their first break up modes way out of the audible range. Also titanium has been similarly 'engineered' Remember JBLs pleated titanium tweeters? It's simply not true to say that aluminium tweeters begin to break up at 16kh - it's just too sweeping a generalisation.
You are quite right Darren, I should have said that some aluminium tweeters beging breakup at 16KHz. A lot of it is down to design as you point out. How thick the material is, the shape of the dome, the youngs modulus of the alloy used etc, etc...
Hi Clive,
I've never experienced 8Hz. Can you actually hear that frequency? or do you sense it a vibration?
I'll let you know what 120Db @ 10Hz sounds & feels like some time next year :eyebrows:
Hi Clive,
I've never experienced 8Hz. Can you actually hear that frequency? or do you sense it a vibration?
At 120db. you just crap your pants for no apparent reason, 9HZ. is the brown note.
It pretty much makes your bowels vibrate all your Butt Mud to the nearest exit.
Haselsh1
22-11-2011, 12:48
I use Dali Ikon 1's which have a fabric domed tweeter and a ribbon supertweeter for extended frequencies. The supertweeter definitely creates a sound that is audible producing as it does a rather beautiful space and air to the sound and a nice 'sparkle'. I love this addition to what would otherwise be quite ordinary.
I use floor standers in my 2nd system that have rear facing 'supertweeters'. As an experiment I did a listening session with them covered over with a piece of card. I could certainly sense a loss of space and precision in instrument placement. This was hardly a scientific test though, as expectation bias could have played a role. However, I have tried it on others and not told them whether covered or not, and all (well, OK, 2!) could tell one 'state' from the other.
Of course, I don't know what the cross over frequency is for these, so they may be just reproducing much of the front facing tweeter information just at a lower SPL. I can certainly hear them doing something though, so at least part of their output must be within the hearing range of someone who is 50 something.
I had a pair of Townshend supertweeters very nice gloss black finish custom factory finish :) so I have some experience.
I first used them atop a pair of Quad 22L's driven by a Chord power amp via an Icon Audio passive preamp there was no doubt they "made a difference". Bizarrely, when switched in (setting 3 was best) they extended the bass a tad but also improved the focus of the soundstage) I did a blind-test with a mate and we both could hear the difference with them in. Interestingly, the biggest difference was with DVD's and less so with CD/MP3 and less still with vinyl.
When I changed to the Croft Pre/Power and the Epos M22i's there was no audible difference with them in or out and so I sold them on.
Looking back I think they are a huge cost for a little audible benefit - certainly poor bang-for-your-buck
Steve
Whoa, come on chaps ;)
Improved high frequency is a possibility although I would still argue that a decent pair of HF drivers will cope with anything that can be dug out of the source; extended bass…..well it’s just not possible.
Super HF drivers may help bring up the treble response, especially for those of us who are, erm, getting on a bit.
But, adding to any frequencies that can/are already produced by the “normal” HF driver may sound better but it will put a hump in what may otherwise be a flat response.
Good sounding maybe; accurate reproduction it isn’t.
The Black Adder
23-11-2011, 10:37
Used properly like in the Harbeth SHL5's I think they work really very well indeed. They don't put something there that shouldn't. Nicely balanced.
So what do the brainy and knowledgeable folk here think of these? Fostex. Worth it on a pair of Spendors?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fostex-Custom-Super-Tweeters-Upgrade-Lowther-Speakers-Last-Pair-/320799695526?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item4ab126e2a6
Reid Malenfant
30-11-2011, 16:51
If you are only listening to CD then don't waste your money ;)
Well basically yeah (cds ripped to flac). How disappointing. I was really buying in to the whole concept. Ah well more money to spend on the new tv I guess ...
cellistic
02-12-2011, 22:11
I imagine someone already said this already (Reid alluded to it); I just didn't have the wherewithal to go read the rest of the thread:
If your source isn't providing (musical) information above 16-20kHz, you probably don't want supertweeters. If you're a super cool SACD fan, then hooray! You won't 'hear' the information, but you will hear the audible band information modulated by the newly introduced upper harmonics. They're what makes the squiggly line even squigglier! :eek:
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