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karma67
10-11-2017, 10:10
Is it just me ?
I’ve noticed some of my records sound better than ever since fitting a decca c4e,
But others can sounds poor, the good ones tend to be newer but it’s starting to get on my tits.

Boyse6748
10-11-2017, 10:40
Jamie,

Unfortunately the Decca takes no prisoners. I’ve found this to be the case with all Decca’s. I have the Decca Gold and well recorded records sound fabulous and poorly recorded records sound just terrible. However, I guess even the C4e falls into that category.

The problem is, that it digs out all that is in the groove “Good and Bad”.

There may well be other views on the subject and this is only my slant as to why this issue is just so annoying. However, attention to careful setup may improve the matter. VTA / Azimuth / etc.

Sorry.......

Peter


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DiveDeepDog
10-11-2017, 10:51
I always recommend Decca goes on 2nd arm. When it's right, there's nothing better, but it's fussy with regard to the vinyl.
I haven't found a consistency either, new/old, cleaning helps but still there's variance.

Not much help, I suppose it could work with detachable headshell, but then again it likes a unipivot?


FWIW, my favoured arm is Roksan Tabriz...

karma67
10-11-2017, 11:43
I’m not alone then lol!

mikeyb
10-11-2017, 12:10
Nope you're not, I'm getting the same with my Decca Gold. Some LPs sound big, bold, vibrant, and then others sound thin and weedy.

Sort of like comparing Nigella Lawson with Michaela Strachan [emoji23]

hifi_dave
10-11-2017, 12:32
Using a Decca on a second arm is a good way to use them. As you have found, they are hell or heaven and also prone to failure.

Back in the 80s and early 90s we did sell numerous Deccas of all colours and we made sure they went to customers who were enthusiasts and understood the possible pitfalls. Many of them were used on second arms, which is practical.

karma67
10-11-2017, 12:50
That does beg the question, what should I use as a main cartridge that’s going to get me close?

topoxforddoc
10-11-2017, 13:34
ZYX

Bigman80
10-11-2017, 13:37
There's a fantastic one in Private exhibitions [emoji6]

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tapid
10-11-2017, 13:40
I m sure there must be an element of this on any cartridge some lp s sound great some lp s less so ?

Firebottle
10-11-2017, 14:11
Seconded for ZYX, though to be fair I can certainly tell excellent and mediocre productions on my ZYX :doh:

Firebottle
10-11-2017, 14:12
Sort of like comparing Nigella Lawson with Michaela Strachan [emoji23]

Love it.

mikeyb
10-11-2017, 14:14
I just wish the Zyx Fuji that had me sell off my AT 33PTGII and my Zyx 100 hadn't turned out to be faulty [emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35]

Firebottle
10-11-2017, 14:42
Mike if you want the Z-100 back then I am willing to wait for something to come up.

Bigman80
10-11-2017, 14:55
I just wish the Zyx Fuji that had me sell off my AT 33PTGII and my Zyx 100 hadn't turned out to be faulty [emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35][emoji35]Yes, that's a pisser. Got a AT33PTGII and the ZYX R50 here and both are incredibly good. I can only imagine how good that Fuji would have been.

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mikeyb
10-11-2017, 16:28
Mike if you want the Z-100 back then I am willing to wait for something to come up.No you're ok, I wouldn't do that. Don't worry I'll manage to find something, I'm not desperate for a cart just now, the Decca is excellent for me. My comment was a reflection on my stupidity at not checking the Fuji out thoroughly before selling the others.

hifi_dave
10-11-2017, 16:58
Closest I've found with the dynamics and speed is the Rega Apheta and Rega Ania. Fast, clean, snappy and fun.

Macca
10-11-2017, 18:18
Jamie,

Unfortunately the Decca takes no prisoners. I’ve found this to be the case with all Decca’s. I have the Decca Gold and well recorded records sound fabulous and poorly recorded records sound just terrible. However, I guess even the C4e falls into that category.

The problem is, that it digs out all that is in the groove “Good and Bad”.

There may well be other views on the subject and this is only my slant as to why this issue is just so annoying. However, attention to careful setup may improve the matter. VTA / Azimuth / etc.

Sorry.......

Peter


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I've never had a listen to a Decca but it sounds to me like it must be quite along ways from neutral. Rather than it digging out the good with the bad is it not more likely that it is coloured? The further any system or component gets from accurate, the more it is going to dictate your music choice. I'm reminded of the DPA Renaissance cd player, of which a reviewer said: 'If this is right, it means that everything else is wrong.'

paulf-2007
10-11-2017, 18:21
I've never had a listen to a Decca but it sounds to me like it must be quite along ways from neutral. Rather than it digging out the good with the bad is it not more likely that it is coloured? The further any system or component gets from accurate, the more it is going to dictate your music choice. I'm reminded of the DPA Renaissance cd player, of which a reviewer said: 'If this is right, it means that everything else is wrong.'does accurate = bland Martin:)

Macca
10-11-2017, 18:35
does accurate = bland Martin:)

Only if the recording/music is bland. :)

it is just that as soon as I see people blaming the recordings and not the equipment, my spider-sense tingalings.

I could be completely wrong of course.

RobbieGong
10-11-2017, 18:35
does accurate = bland Martin

No :)

I've read a lot of posts over the years regarding what I'd call 'exciting' carts and strangely, rather than be drawn towards I find that those types have me doing the opposite of many others and retreating.

I guess it's got to be because I dont like the idea of carts that I get the impression impose a lot of character / themself on the music and it's portrayal.

To the contrary, I'm drawn to carts and kit that get out of the way to use that old saying and just let the music / the recording come through, getting right inside to however it is, warts and all

karma67
10-11-2017, 18:50
dont get me wrong,the decca is fabulous,the 2m black is a great cartridge,i think we all would agree on that,when i first put the decca on with its original eliptical stylus i new i wouldn't go back,ive just compared my 73 pressing of dsotm to my hardly played remastered copy,its much better so judging the decca on a not so good record is maybe a bit harsh.

or should i start saving for a caddy black?? :)

paulf-2007
10-11-2017, 19:14
Only if the recording/music is bland. :)

it is just that as soon as I see people blaming the recordings and not the equipment, my spider-sense tingalings.

I could be completely wrong of course.. Touché

paulf-2007
10-11-2017, 19:17
The decca gold is a great cart, I borrowed one and it threw a wobbly on snare drum beats until I put some putty between it and the headshell. As good as it was it wasn't better than a Benz wood or as good as my Shure ultra 500 with Jico stylus, so I didn't bother to buy one. An itch scratched

karma67
10-11-2017, 19:17
Only if the recording/music is bland. :)

it is just that as soon as I see people blaming the recordings and not the equipment, my spider-sense tingalings.

I could be completely wrong of course.

ok lets turn it around then,what in my system would make some records sound totally awsome and others below par?

karma67
10-11-2017, 19:19
The decca gold is a great cart, I borrowed one and it threw a wobbly on snare drum beats until I put some putty between it and the headshell. As good as it was it wasn't better than a Benz wood or as good as my Shure ultra 500 with Jico stylus, so I didn't bother to buy one. An itch scratched

any thoughts on a benz micro glider?

montesquieu
10-11-2017, 19:23
does accurate = bland Martin

No :)

I've read a lot of posts over the years regarding what I'd call 'exciting' carts and strangely, rather than be drawn towards I find that those types have me doing the opposite of many others and retreating.

I guess it's got to be because I dont like the idea of carts that I get the impression impose a lot of character / themself on the music and it's portrayal.

To the contrary, I'm drawn to carts and kit that get out of the way to use that old saying and just let the music / the recording come through, getting right inside to however it is, warts and all

+1. I don't think I would keep a cartridge that made any otherwise acceptable LP sound crap.

Ian7633
10-11-2017, 19:32
any thoughts on a benz micro glider?

As you know I read loads of stuff about the Micro Glider and was really keen to try one but just couldn't find a good one. Come over some time and check out the Quintet Black, it really is very nice......I'll even get the good coffee out haha

RobbieGong
10-11-2017, 19:39
As you know I read loads of stuff about the Micro Glider and was really keen to try one but just couldn't find a good one. Come over some time and check out the Quintet Black, it really is very nice......I'll even get the good coffee out haha

Yep, the Quintet Black is one of those carts as per post #21, gets out of the way, lets the music through without imposing itself, whatever the genre :thumbsup:

WESTLOWER
10-11-2017, 20:02
any thoughts on a benz micro glider?

The Benz micro glider is a fine cart. With the hashimoto SUT it produced some fine music.
It narrowly lost out to my Dynavetor XX2 mk2 but not a lot in it. Kinda regret letting it go.
The gain was a bit high for the options on my SUT, in the middle of the loading.
But a good performer

StuN
10-11-2017, 23:48
You have two elements that "take no prisoners" - the Decca and the Yamahas.
I know as I have both!
However the Rock should be a bonus. Have you tried adding mass to the the Alphason, or adjusting the amount of damping?
Admittedly I use an OL modded RB300 and a retipped Decca Blue but records that sound poor with the Decca also sound poor with my other cartridges.
Experimenting could be worth trying.

walpurgis
10-11-2017, 23:52
You have two elements that "take no prisoners" - the Decca and the Yamahas.

There's some truth in that. Just bung a valve buffer in. Sorted! :)

Jimbo
11-11-2017, 07:19
You have two elements that "take no prisoners" - the Decca and the Yamahas.
I know as I have both!
However the Rock should be a bonus. Have you tried adding mass to the the Alphason, or adjusting the amount of damping?
Admittedly I use an OL modded RB300 and a retipped Decca Blue but records that sound poor with the Decca also sound poor with my other cartridges.
Experimenting could be worth trying.

That's exactly what I found with the Decca Blue Stu. It reveals all and with great recordings it is superb but quickly shows the shortcomings of poor recordings. This is why I could not use it as my daily driver. I prefer a slightly more neutral cartridge that is not quite as immediate but a bit more relaxing such as the 2M black.

stevied
11-11-2017, 07:53
This thread has put me off Deccas a bit.

topoxforddoc
11-11-2017, 08:23
I have 2 tonearms and cartridges (Decca C4E/Hadcock 228 and Allaerts MC1B/Schroeder Model 2) on my Platine Verdier, both feeding into TRON phono stages (Seven Reference for the Decca and upgraded onboard MC phono on my TRON Meteor preamp - precursor to the Syren). I have played LPs with both carts on the record simultaneously and can switch immediately from one to the other - so no need to use aural memory to compare.

The Allaerts MC1B/Schroeder is an excellent set up - spacious wide sound stage, delicate, airy, stunning on vocals - so it should be as that's now a £5.5 k combination. But the C4E/Hadcock has more drive and dynamics (esp on percussion and piano). Ok the C4E does not have the spacious sound stage (bit narrower and more compressed front to back), the top end is not quite as refined, but the dynamic live sound wins almost all of the time.

I'm afraid that poorly recorded records sound bad whichever set up I use. The Allaerts/Schroeder gets used for orchestral stuff and opera, but the Decca plays pretty much everything else.

bob4333
11-11-2017, 08:24
any thoughts on a benz micro glider?

Jamie, the Benz Micro Glider I cannot offer a view on, but I found the Benz Micro Wood SL to be slow, tame and uninvolving. After reading so many positive reviews I was hugely disappointed. It tracked well but produced no excitement whatsoever in my system.

Others will no doubt have a more positive experience.

mikeyb
11-11-2017, 08:26
This thread has put me off Deccas a bit.I'll quantify what I said at my Gold, I love it, and if any records sound poor with it, it's mostly 1980's mega thin vinyl, let's face it most of the 80's vinyl was crap as they pushed the limit of how much they could fit in a side and the LPs themselves became thinner and thinner to cut costs.

A lot of production at that time also seemed to be all about the top end and nothing about the bottom end. Loads of LPs from this era ( that I own anyway ) seem to have been recorded with no bass player and the drummer is 3 studios away.

Is it bad that a cartridge reveals all, well that depends on whether you want accuracy, or whether you want something pleasant to listen to, and there is the rub, pleasant might not reveal all, which means you will miss a helluva lot. However accurate might reveal all and you might not like what you hear.

These are so many variables with vinyl playback, if we tried to 'fix' it all, jeezo we'd have 3 different turntables, 6 different arms and 27 different cartridges [emoji23]

Welcome to vinyl [emoji6]

PS: note that my crap LPs have sounded poor with all the carts I've owned, but to varying degrees.

walpurgis
11-11-2017, 08:47
This thread has put me off Deccas a bit.

Remember. Most people that own them love them!

topoxforddoc
11-11-2017, 08:55
Remember. Most people that own them love them!

Most people, who have bought one, and then had it properly sorted (esp for second hand or vintage Deccas), love them. The modern Deccas built by John Wright are much better in terms of quality control compared to the lottery from Decca Special Products

Bigman80
11-11-2017, 11:41
Most people, who have bought one, and then had it properly sorted (esp for second hand or vintage Deccas), love them. The modern Deccas built by John Wright are much better in terms of quality control compared to the lottery from Decca Special ProductsThat's the route is go if I were to buy one.

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Haselsh1
11-11-2017, 11:42
I had the chance to hear one decades ago on a heavily damped unipivot and it sounded bloody amazing.

karma67
11-11-2017, 17:45
You have two elements that "take no prisoners" - the Decca and the Yamahas.
I know as I have both!
However the Rock should be a bonus. Have you tried adding mass to the the Alphason, or adjusting the amount of damping?
Admittedly I use an OL modded RB300 and a retipped Decca Blue but records that sound poor with the Decca also sound poor with my other cartridges.
Experimenting could be worth trying.

hi, yes ive tried 20,000 cs and 30,000 cs damping fluid,the original 12,500 sounds the best to me,more open and airy.
i already have mass at the headshell due to the damping paddle for the rock.
i dont think anythings a miss,i just think the decca is showing up bad/worn pressing as any great cartridge would do.

Bigman80
11-11-2017, 17:57
hi, yes ive tried 20,000 cs and 30,000 cs damping fluid,the original 12,500 sounds the best to me,more open and airy.
i already have mass at the headshell due to the damping paddle for the rock.
i dont think anythings a miss,i just think the decca is showing up bad/worn pressing as any great cartridge would do.Daft question, Jamie. I know you're having a listen to my cables currently. Are they in your system now?

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karma67
11-11-2017, 17:59
they are indeed :)

Bigman80
11-11-2017, 18:02
they are indeed :)Do you think they are contributing to the "exposing" of the bad recording? They are very revealing in my system. I can tell if I take them out. Might be worth a try to put the Klotz back in. See what happens.

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karma67
11-11-2017, 18:08
no mate,ive only been using them through the cd

Bigman80
11-11-2017, 18:30
no mate,ive only been using them through the cdAh, fair enough.

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StuN
12-11-2017, 00:38
"hi, yes ive tried 20,000 cs and 30,000 cs damping fluid,the original 12,500 sounds the best to me,more open and airy.
i already have mass at the headshell due to the damping paddle for the rock.
i dont think anythings a miss,i just think the decca is showing up bad/worn pressing as any great cartridge would do."

It certainly does that Jamie, and I know you have the paddle and that helps, but that assembly (if it is the original) weighs less than 3 grams which is very little if you are trying to raise the effective mass towards that of a medium or high mass arm which suits the Decca best. For the rebodied Blue, I add about 10gm at the headshell.

karma67
12-11-2017, 09:19
hi stuart,i did try adding mass a while ago but it seemed to make it sound dull,dont forget my decca c4e weighs 13g,i dont know what the blue weighs,i suspect a lot lighter.
my tonearms Effective mass is 11g.

topoxforddoc
12-11-2017, 10:11
Jamie,

The tin box Deccas weigh 6.7 g, so a lot lighter than the C4E. I always put a small blob of blutak between the top of the asking and the headshell to damp some of the resonance in the tin box. It has to be a small blob, otherwise the blutak separates the cartage from the red plastic mount.

Charlie

StuN
12-11-2017, 13:06
When I mount it on my 1210, the headshell assembly (rebodied cartridge + hardware + extra weight + headshell) comes to 29grams and I balance this out with extra weight at the counterweight.
The Effective mass of the 1210 arm is 12, so similar to yours. On the Technics, the KAB damper makes a huge difference.

Barry
12-11-2017, 13:54
When I mount it on my 1210, the headshell assembly (rebodied cartridge + hardware + extra weight + headshell) comes to 29grams and I balance this out with extra weight at the counterweight.
The Effective mass of the 1210 arm is 12, so similar to yours. On the Technics, the KAB damper makes a huge difference.

Stuart - In what way has your Decca (Blue?) been "re-bodied"? Is a completely new housing or do you use one of the available aftermarket clamps, such as the GB mounting block?

speedracer
12-11-2017, 14:40
I used to have a Decca Gold & absolutely loved it, not sure why I moved it on to be honest but I will have another at some point. I had no tracking problems at all by the way, in fact no problems at all with it. I think rather than making poor recordings sound rubbish it just showed them for what they are, and besides I don't have any poor records in my collection now, if it grades less than EX I sell it and buy a better copy.

I also agree with a previous poster with regards to a Benz Wood SL, I was very underwhelmed by one & sold it on sharply.

StuN
12-11-2017, 23:54
Stuart - In what way has your Decca (Blue?) been "re-bodied"? Is a completely new housing or do you use one of the available aftermarket clamps, such as the GB mounting block?

I use an ebony body from Stanley Engineering in Germany - readily available on that selling site. I also have their 4-pin connector in ebony. The body is a "slide in" sleeve. You have to remove the top lid and slide the tin body into the sleeve. It is a very firm fit and so no adhesive is required, yet it would be removable with care. I had Stan thread it for M2.5 rather than M2 screws as I think the latter are just too fine for wood (personal preference!).

I really have nothing negative to say about it. It takes a very slight hardness from the sound but the dynamics are the same. (I had an elliptical tip fitted by John Wright). I use either a Rock 2 or my 1210, into an EAR V20 and NS1000Ms, both of which have a reputation for being analytical. I just love it and it has become my main cartridge. It also looks a lot less Heath Robinson than the original!