View Full Version : Amp to match my Tannoys ?
Right guys, I've now sold my TQ Claymore Amp and I'm wanting to find the ideal amp to match my Tannoys Berkeleys (15" HPD 385 drivers).
I'm currently using an EWA M-50 Power Amp with a Xiang Sheng DAC Pre, the two might be sold off to add to the TQ funds, although I'm not averse to just adding a really good Pre Amp into the EWA M-50 Power Amp.
So I'm looking at a budget of anything from £1000 - £1750 give or take. Can be integrated, pre/power, valves, Solid State, not really fussy. I'm just looking to get the best out of my final set of speakers.
My tastes include everything from Americana, Female Vocalists, Electronic, Prog, Classic Rock, Hard Rock. I do also like to go to 11 at times too. I like good clean bass, thunderous bass ( I love live music ), good vocals, but I'm easily put off if treble is a bit harsh or edgy as I hate that.
I just don't want to buy blind without advice as not much is selling just now and don't want to buy and not like it then have to try and get rid of it in this poor market.
Rest of system is my heavily modded Technics 1210, Fidelity Research FR64FX arm, Denon Gold cart, Firebottle Vivant Phono stage, Raspberry Pi with Allo Boss DAC and of course the Tannoy Berkeleys, all of these items are keepers.
Remote control would be useful but not a deal breaker. It must look good too, although I realise that everyone's taste is different.
I SHOULD have bought Martin's Yoshino 8L6 but by the time I'd made my mind up and sold my TQ it was gone. Another poor decision on my part [emoji17]
Modern or vintage considered.
So if anyone can help that would be great.
PS: I forgot to say second hand preferred to maximise bang for buck [emoji6]
wee tee cee
07-11-2017, 07:31
Mike,
Brian has a croft pre/power combo- reckon they would sound fantastic with Tannoys. They may not got to 11 as you sometimes require but the big tannoys are very efficient. Might be an idea to see if Brian could bring them over.
They are very much amps for life like the tannoys- Glen does an integrated and various combos as you dont need a phono stage. You could buy new!!!
Failing that a 300b like Garys LDA is sublime but a few bob over your budget.
Ammonite Audio
07-11-2017, 07:37
I was so impressed by the Clef Audio Solist 50 integrated amplifier that I have now bought one. It's a 50w amp but Class A up to 10w, which covers most needs. I wrote a few thoughts here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?54662-Clef-Audio-Soloist-50-Amplifier . One of its nicest characteristics is that it does not need to be cranked up to sound good, unlike many other amps that I've heard - it has a luscious Class A character with plenty (actually loads) of depth even at low volumes. I don't sell Clef, but it's a veritable bargain.
Mike,
Brian has a croft pre/power combo- reckon they would sound fantastic with Tannoys. They may not got to 11 as you sometimes require but the big tannoys are very efficient. Might be an idea to see if Brian could bring them over.
They are very much amps for life like the tannoys- Glen does an integrated and various combos as you dont need a phono stage. You could buy new!!!
Failing that a 300b like Garys LDA is sublime but a few bob over your budget.Funnily enough I've been looking at Croft ( I sold a Croft pre amp a few months back, typical!)
Ok 11 might be pushing it in the music room with the size of it [emoji6], but I like to rock now and again and I've no doubt a Croft combo would manage this no problem.
I still like the look of that Herron Audio Pre Amp in the classifieds, it's just a pity it's black. Mind you it gets very good reviews and it might be a good match for me M50 power amp.
I'm in no rush, it's all sounding pretty good just now, but the Xiang Sheng DAC/Pre is holding it back I feel.
I might be need to organise a wee visit here to try out some amps.
Bigman80
07-11-2017, 07:41
Just get Alan to build you some Monoblocks, Mike. The version I have would drive your speakers without a problem. I'm pretty sure Alan could answer any technical concern or query and these be brand new rather than used. Find a chassis that you like and he will build them into them. IMO they are a no-brainer. If you were closer I'd lend you mine for a test run. Cagey has a pair, ask his opinion too.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
I was so impressed by the Clef Audio Solist 50 integrated amplifier that I have now bought one. It's a 50w amp but Class A up to 10w, which covers most needs. I wrote a few thoughts here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?54662-Clef-Audio-Soloist-50-Amplifier . One of its nicest characteristics is that it does not need to be cranked up to sound good, unlike many other amps that I've heard - it has a luscious Class A character with plenty (actually loads) of depth even at low volumes. I don't sell Clef, but it's a veritable bargain.Hi Hugo,
I had forgotten about that one, I looked the look of it from your review and it sounds very much like what I am after. I'll maybe see if can have a demo from somewhere.
The matching phono stage would make a nice setup in the rack too. Not that I'm after a phono but the pair match nicely.
Thanks for the reminder about it.
WESTLOWER
07-11-2017, 08:05
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?54840-Amp-swap-party&p=915462#post915462
Wakefield Turntables
07-11-2017, 08:15
Croft or Radford work well with Tannoy.
jandl100
07-11-2017, 08:45
Not that I share your enthusiasm for Tannoys, but I have heard quite a few in my time, in a variety of systems.
Regard my opinions as objective rather than subjectively rose tinted. :)
If you want "good clean bass, thunderous bass " then forget smaller valve amps, SETs, 300B etc.
You need summat that will get a good, clean grip of those large drivers and not let go.
Highish current, decent damping factor solid state (50wpc minimum), or valve with serious muscle (if you can lift it without grunting, then it ain't right for you ;)).
And (as you know!) it is best to hear them for yourself in your system if you want to avoid the boxswap merry-go-round.
Get your mates round, hold an amp bakeoff. Try a few. Get some loaners.
Good luck! :thumbsup:
Amp bakeoff would be a good idea. Give you an idea what you are looking for.
Not that I share your enthusiasm for Tannoys, but I have heard quite a few in my time, in a variety of systems.
Regard my opinions as objective rather than subjectively rose tinted. :)
If you want "good clean bass, thunderous bass " then forget smaller valve amps, SETs, 300B etc.
You need summat that will get a good, clean grip of those large drivers and not let go.
Highish current, decent damping factor solid state (50wpc minimum), or valve with serious muscle (if you can lift it without grunting, then it ain't right for you ;)).
And (as you know!) it is best to hear them for yourself in your system if you want to avoid the boxswap merry-go-round.
Get your mates round, hold an amp bakeoff. Try a few. Get some loaners.
Good luck! [emoji106]It's funny how circumstances change, we've had a complete turnaround in the setup of our living room and now that I have a separate area for music I could have bought any large speaker I wanted. The Berkeley's were bought to suit the main area of the living room and sit against the wall, my wife thought the Berkeley's were perfect for that. This of course was before we decided to completely change the living area, typical lol. But now I have them and have been reconed they're not going anywhere soon, hence my thoughts about amp matching.
My EWA M-50 Power Amp certainly has power and grip, it's was like injecting my TQ Claymore with steroids lol, it totally transformed my PMC 21 speakers, so I might look at a decent Pre as the Xiang one doesn't suit me. I'd like to try that Herron Audio one but not so keen to buy before try as getting rid of unwanted gear is a lottery just now.
Amp bakeoff would be a good idea. Give you an idea what you are looking for.Been thinking about that too
jandl100
07-11-2017, 09:15
One of the best Tannoy combos I have heard was a pair of 12 inch HPD in Lancaster cabs (loaned to me for a Scalford Show) driven by my valve/ss hybrid Unison Research Unico Secondo integrated amp - 80wpc, iirc - quite a few folk rated it the best sound at the show.
EDIT - ah, OK - I see you are more interested in preamps now.
Shame you didn't buy that Pure Sound L10 had up for sale !!
One of the best Tannoy combos I have heard was a pair of 12 inch HPD in Lancaster cabs (loaned to me for a Scalford Show) driven by my valve/ss hybrid Unison Research Unico Secondo integrated amp - 80wpc, iirc - quite a few folk rated it the best sound at the show.I've seen that amp mentioned a few times with Tannoys, in fact the Unison Research make was the very first amp I wanted to upgrade to when I was getting rid of my Rega Brio.
walpurgis
07-11-2017, 09:20
There is actually an amp for sale on this forum that would drive the Tannoys superbly. The Quad 909!
It's powerful, very well built, sounds extremely nice, has no 'nasties' and can be used with a simple passive pre-amp.
And it won't go wrong!
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?54875-FS-quad-909-boxes-amp-mint
Bigman80
07-11-2017, 09:39
Heard a quad in my system recently. Might have been a 405? I can never remember the numbers of Quads!
It didn't get close to the Crofts or the FB-Monos.
Never heard 909 though. Could be a different beast.
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walpurgis
07-11-2017, 09:45
Heard a quad in my system recently. Might have been a 405? I can never remember the numbers of Quads!
It didn't get close to the Crofts or the FB-Monos.
Never heard 909 though. Could be a different beast.
It is. The 405 and 405/II can't hold a candle to the 909. The 909 is far more refined.
I've heard most of the Quad power amps at one time or another and the only two I really appreciated were the 306 and 909. And I'm fussy!
I've got a 306 rigged up with my Cheviots at the moment and it works extremely nicely. Makes a change from my usual Class A gear.
Mike ... I think you were exactly correct when you were going to buy the EAR 8L6. Like many on this forum, I've tried (too) many amps with Tannoys, and most of us seem to have settled on KT88/120/150 or EL34 push-pull valve amps.
Talking of Crofts, I once owned a Series 4SA valve amp, which I foolishly sold to buy a transistor amp in my days when I was seduced by high-resolution and 'detail' :doh: I suspect that amp would be perfect for Tannoys ... not that you ever see them secondhand, as the lucky owners have an amp for life.
Bigman80
07-11-2017, 09:46
It is. The 405 and 405/II can't hold a candle to the 909. The 909 is far more refined.
I've heard most of the Quad power amps at one time or another and the only two I really appreciated were the 306 and 909. And I'm fussy!I don't doubt your words, Geoff. Whatever version I had in mine lasted about 3 hours before permanent removal.
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yeah the 909 is a nice big amp. Pity there is no MF A1000's around. I reckon it would be very good with Tannoys too
There is actually an amp for sale on this forum that would drive the Tannoys superbly. The Quad 909!
It's powerful, very well built, sounds extremely nice, has no 'nasties' and can be used with a simple passive pre-amp.
And it won't go wrong!
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?54875-FS-quad-909-boxes-amp-mint
+1. In fact any of the Quads from a trusty old 303 up will suit them well. The 303(and later405) Tannoy HPD combo was pretty much a recording studio staple back in t'day..
A nice healthy divergence of opinion going on here! ;)
The 303(and later405) Tannoy HPD combo was pretty much a recording studio staple back in t'day..
Indeed, and for 'sound-per-pound' value, that's probably the way to go. However, for me, vintage Tannoys (HPDs or MGs) still sound best on the end of a top-notch, reasonably powerful push-pull valve amp, with good grip and control, whilst also delivering the beguiling musical qualities of tubes.
However, such valve amps cost a lot of money (as it's mostly in the quality of the transformers), so Mike, unless you've got a minimum of £5k to throw at things, forget it and stick to SS.
Marco.
Lots to think on, which is what I wanted. As mentioned already I'm in no rush so I'll just keep watching the classifieds and try and organise demos of kit if I can.
Gary at Audio Emotion is very good and local to me so I'll be watching his used list closely, the same with Jordan's who are 5 minutes from me too.
My EWA M-50 Power Amp is a powerful great sounding amp on the Tannoys and will take some beating, I had Autobahn by Kraftwerk playing for my dad before the recone and it was like we were back in the Usher Hall listening to them live. So I more than likely should keep the EWA and match it with a pre amp, I might just demo/borrow some pre amps in the first instance.
My Quad QMPs produce an excellent sound through my Ardens (even better since snagging Jerry's L10) & I think I'm right in saying they're a similar design to the 909?
In the 70s when running a Nelson Jones 10+10, I chanced on a 303. It lasted 1 day, the bass was woolly and undamped.
The 405 is not much better IMO, but the 909 is very good.
jandl100
07-11-2017, 10:49
The Quad 405ii has much more control than the original 405.
I upped from the 405 to the ii and consider it to be the first real hifi amp that I owned.
martian sunrise
07-11-2017, 11:07
I consider selling the Croft back to you, if you were interested.
wee tee cee
07-11-2017, 12:15
Mike,
What about a EWA pre to match the power amp....makes sense!
If you fancy trying tubes I will lug my Kel 84 power amp and mono blocks across.
Ive got the monos plumbed in using the TQ as dac/pre-sounds lovely.
Can bring the tvc/tissie and bte to let you try some passives.
Try to persuade Brian to bring is croft pre /power.
As a left field I can also bring a few t amps-mini t/temple audio bantum/mono blocks-they can really surprise just how good they sound.
The scottish mafia is hear to help!!!
If you fancy trying tubes I will lug my Kel 84 power amp and mono blocks across.
Good shout, Tony. I think Mike should hear those in his system. For me, every Tannoy DC aficionado should hear his or her speakers with both tube and SS amps, before making a final decision on which way to go, as the difference in sonic presentation is marked :)
Marco.
Good shout, Tony. I think Mike should hear those in his system. For me, every Tannoy DC aficionado should hear his or her speakers with both tube and SS amps, before making a final decision on which way to go, as the difference in sonic presentation is marked :)
Marco.
The combination of that big copper valve amp IanW had and his Canterbury's represent to me one of, if not the nicest amp /Tannoy combination I've ever heard.
+1 on that Frank, it was a lovely combination, shame Ian did not do vinyl that could have been spectacular.
Totally agree, guys - having heard that combo on numerous occasions! The same amp also sounds rather good with my LMs ;)
However, Copper amps (or any valve amps of that ilk) don't come cheap... In fact, you can't do valve amps properly, on the cheap, period.
Marco.
Mike,
What about a EWA pre to match the power amp....makes sense!
If you fancy trying tubes I will lug my Kel 84 power amp and mono blocks across.
Ive got the monos plumbed in using the TQ as dac/pre-sounds lovely.
Can bring the tvc/tissie and bte to let you try some passives.
Try to persuade Brian to bring is croft pre /power.
As a left field I can also bring a few t amps-mini t/temple audio bantum/mono blocks-they can really surprise just how good they sound.
The scottish mafia is hear to help!!!I did think about the EWA Pre Q20 I think it is, but I would need it custom as it only has one input and has an MC and MM phono stage built in. So I would need at least 1 more input, ok I could look at the EWA M-50 Pre but that's about £1800, I'd rather spend that amount on a used product to get more for my money [emoji6]
I'm also not sure what difference it would be from the TQ Claymore Amp as a pre.
Good shout, Tony. I think Mike should hear those in his system. For me, every Tannoy DC aficionado should hear his or her speakers with both tube and SS amps, before making a final decision on which way to go, as the difference in sonic presentation is marked :)
Marco.Yip makes sense, I'll definitely have to get a listen to Tony's 'spares' on my Tannoys [emoji6] [emoji4]
Well, if Tony's Kel 84 power amp and mono blocks gels with them, then be prepared to fall in love with TOOBS! :eyebrows:;)
Marco [Tannoys love TOOBS].
wee tee cee
07-11-2017, 14:56
I dont think the tubes in my amps are that special -sovtek/phillips/mullard but it gives a proper flavour of what tubes do. There is just something special going on, in combo with my 57s they really do play nice.
southall-1998
07-11-2017, 17:52
Good SS Integrated amp that can go to 11-12, and retain it's composure. The Roksan Kandy KA1- MKIII.
S.
montesquieu
07-11-2017, 18:17
Mike ... I think you were exactly correct when you were going to buy the EAR 8L6. Like many on this forum, I've tried (too) many amps with Tannoys, and most of us seem to have settled on KT88/120/150 or EL34 push-pull valve amps.
+1. KT88 family / EL 34 family. With HPDs, 40-50w minimum (Golds need less). Job done and just listen to the music.
Been there done that with solid state, SET, 300b, active crossovers, hybrids, Class D, blah blah di blah. With Tannoys, tubes rule, specifically PP valve amps of the pentode/beam tetrode persuasion. You know it makes sense.
Marco [Tannoys love TOOBS].
Sums it up neatly.
montesquieu
07-11-2017, 18:24
The Quad 405ii has much more control than the original 405.
I upped from the 405 to the ii and consider it to be the first real hifi amp that I owned.
I've had an upgraded 405 ii in the house and its owner was highly expectant. He left disappointed - Radford was far more refined and liquid, while being just as robust in the lower registers. Made the Quad sound coarse. Same experience with a 303 and 909. Quads are good amps but they won't do what a good valve amp does. Though as Marco says elsewhere it is a more expensive path to take, decent valve amps aren't as cheap as they used to be.
+1. KT88 family / EL 34 family. With HPDs, 40-50w minimum (Golds need less). Job done and just listen to the music.
Been there done that with solid state, SET, 300b, active crossovers, hybrids, Class D, blah blah di blah. With Tannoys, tubes rule, specifically PP valve amps of the pentode/beam tetrode persuasion. You know it makes sense.
Radford then. Which I notice from your kit list is where you ended up :)
I have gone down the route of active speakers after recently hearing some astonishingly good Adam Tensor Gammas which I couldn't resist.
Consequently I have a Quad 606 (older version of the 909) or if you want a really gutsy but refined integrated I have a Karan KA i180. 180 WPC with massive current delivery. It will definitely go to 11 without losing it's composure. $11,000 RRP. Apologies for the shameless plug!
http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/uploads/documents/karinacoustics_kai180.pdf
If you're interested pm me and I feel sure we can agree a price somewhere around your budget.
+1. KT88 family / EL 34 family. With HPDs, 40-50w minimum (Golds need less). Job done and just listen to the music.
Been there done that with solid state, SET, 300b, active crossovers, hybrids, Class D, blah blah di blah. With Tannoys, tubes rule, specifically PP valve amps of the pentode/beam tetrode persuasion. You know it makes sense.
Sums it up neatly.
Completely agree. I've had some very expensive SS amps including Luxman class A in my system and my Primaluna Prologue 5 with KT120s suited the HPD385s soo much better. The KT120s are a step up from KT88s and so suspect the KT150s would be better again. There *are* good Chinese built valve amps out there which won't break the bank and still sound good, rather have one of Anthony's Copper amps though or a big Radford :D
The KT120s are a step up from KT88s and so suspect the KT150s would be better again...
Indeed, I can confirm that, John. In the Copper amp, going from 120s to 150s was a significant upgrade, in terms of openness, overall control and bass depth. Honestly, it's a no-brainer upgrade, *if* your amp can take them safely :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
07-11-2017, 21:30
Mike, as in the PM, I’d be asking Nick to build you the best EL34 PP you can afford. :-)
Why EL34? Themz for sissies. Give the amp some REAL BALLS, with proper man-sized valves!! ;)
KT150s are where it's at, bro.
Marco.
Ali Tait
07-11-2017, 21:40
Coz I like what they do in the mid, and I think so would Mike.
walpurgis
07-11-2017, 21:42
My EL34 monos sound great with the Tannoys. Punchy too and no lack of grip.
Coz I like what they do in the mid, and I think so would Mike.
Ah, trade-offs, dontcha just lurve 'em? ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
08-11-2017, 07:03
You haven’t heard the last EL34 amp Nick built. ;-)
Lots of great advice. I'll arrange a Mafia visit once the decorating is finished and I save up enough to buy in food for the day [emoji23]
You haven’t heard the last EL34 amp Nick built. ;-)
Knowing Nick, I'm sure it's fab, but at the end of the day an apple's an apple, and a pear's a pear... The same applies to EL34s and KT150s, and I'm a pear kind of guy ;)
Marco.
wee tee cee
08-11-2017, 08:19
Mike,
PM sent....
IME, valve amp performance is 90%+ about the circuit & transformer design, and only a few % about the particular valves utilised. For instance, Radford and EAR both have (very different) designs that use EL34s, both giving results superior to the majority of 'bog-standard' KT88 amps. Similarly, the MacIntosh 275 uses a different circuit design to raise it's performance above the norm. for KT88 push-pull amps.
My Leben power amp has the facility to re-bias across a wide range of power valves (KT120, KT88, KT66, EL34, KT77, 6L6GC, 5881, 350B, etc), and although I haven't tried them all, there is a lot less difference than most people would imagine with the ones I have tried, the overall performance being overwhelmingly determined by the circuit topology and the o/p transformers. In fact, I suspect a blindfold test would show it'd be quite difficult to reliably, repeatedly, identify which valves were being used.
IME, valve amp performance is 90%+ about the circuit & transformer design, and only a few % about the particular valves utilised.
Indeed, but the chosen valves dictate (to a significant degree) the design of the circuit! ;)
Therefore, one is intrinsically linked with the other...
My Leben power amp has the facility to re-bias across a wide range of power valves (KT120, KT88, KT66, EL34, KT77, 6L6GC, 5881, 350B, etc), and although I haven't tried them all, there is a lot less difference than most people would imagine with the ones I have tried, the overall performance being overwhelmingly determined by the circuit topology and the o/p transformers. In fact, I suspect a blindfold test would show it'd be quite difficult to reliably, repeatedly, identify which valves were being used.
No doubt, but do the same test with separate amplifiers, each one designed to optimise the characteristics of the chosen output valves (through circuit design and transformers used), and the results would be rather different....
You'd need to be deaf not to hear the difference! There's a lot more to hearing the true capabilities of any output valve, KT88, EL34, or whatever, than merely re-biasing them in the same circuit... That's especially true, in the case of KT150s, because of their electrical demands.
I like KT88s/120s and 150s in P/P amps because I like a bit of power (at least 30w), because the added 'grunt' has a beneficial (and very valuable effect for me) on the music :)
Marco.
RothwellAudio
08-11-2017, 10:08
Indeed, but the chosen valves dictate (to a significant degree) the design of the circuit! ;)
Therefore, one is intrinsically linked with the other...
No, I don't think so. Take for example a standard push-pull output with grid bias - you could make that with any type of output valves. Same goes for push-pull with cathode bias, or for single-ended output. Pretty much any circuit type could be implemented with any type of valve.
True, there are some restrictions though. You can't make an ultra-linear output stage with triodes for example.
Anyway, I agree that getting the details right is more significant than the broad-brush view that a particular valve type has an inherent sound.
No, I don't think so. Take for example a standard push-pull output with grid bias - you could make that with any type of output valves. Same goes for push-pull with cathode bias, or for single-ended output. Pretty much any circuit type could be implemented with any type of valve.
True, there are some restrictions though. You can't make an ultra-linear output stage with triodes for example.
Anyway, I agree that getting the details right is more significant than the broad-brush view that a particular valve type has an inherent sound.
Yup, that's what I was referring to. Also, there's no doubt that if the circuit is designed to *optimise* the electrical parameters of a specific output valve, better results will be obtained than when that's not the case - as I've heard it for myself! :)
KT150s, for example, require certain types of output transformers (and the right circuit) to give of their best. The reality of the matter is contained in your last sentence: the devil is always in the details ;)
Marco.
I muse this thread with both interest and a failure to understand it.
I have built many valve amps from the late 60s onwards, and have not used one since about '74. My feelings are that in general they have so many disadvantages that they have technically been surpassed by bipolar SS amps; inefficiency, aging changes, microphony, limited power availability, low damping factor, and at best slightly under 0.1% distortion, but I accept that a good transformer can make the deal, (Partridge), and that they look lovely.
So unless there is an obvious, or even and inference of better sound, I could not consider a valve amp now, and I am left in a quandary about what seems to be this great divergence of perception and taste.
I've even gone Icepower for God's sake - really against every instinct in me, especially when considering the poor reports on switching power supplies.
Ali Tait
08-11-2017, 10:43
Knowing Nick, I'm sure it's fab, but at the end of the day an apple's an apple, and a pear's a pear... The same applies to EL34s and KT150s, and I'm a pear kind of guy ;)
Marco.
LOL yeah, that’s because you listen at PA levels!
I muse this thread with both interest and a failure to understand it.
{snip} inefficiency, aging changes, microphony, limited power availability, low damping factor, and at best slightly under 0.1% distortion...
Well, Dennis, that's the problem with adopting an 'objectivist' approach to audio, and attempting to use numbers to determine sound quality... Thankfully, there's a lot more to making a piece of equipment sound good (with music) than measurements alone, which only ever tell part of the story.
And so when you're only in possession of part of the story, it's no wonder you fail to understand the full 'plot'... ;)
Marco.
LOL yeah, that’s because you listen at PA levels!
Nah, not at all. I just don't like my amps running out of steam at bake-offs, when used in bigger rooms, simply because of their weeny-boy power output! :ner::D
I still remember sparks flying out of 'statics, at Owston, when being asked to play at more than whisper levels, by a 3w SET amp!! ;)
Marco.
RothwellAudio
08-11-2017, 10:57
...they have technically been surpassed by bipolar SS amps; inefficiency, aging changes, microphony, limited power availability, low damping factor, and at best slightly under 0.1% distortion...
Well, Dennis, that's the problem with adopting an 'objectivist' approach to audio, and attempting to use numbers to determine sound quality... Thankfully, there's a lot more to making a piece of equipment sound good (with music) than measurements alone, which only ever tell part of the story.
And so when you're only in possession of part of the story, it's no wonder you fail to understand the 'plot'... ;)
Numbers can be very revealing - but they have to be the right numbers and they have to be interpreted correctly. To me the "0.1% distortion" figure is misleading because it's the distortion at full power output. The distortion at low power outputs is much less, unlike a transistor power amp (or some transistor power amps, at least) where the distortion is worse at low power outputs than full power output.
anthonyTD
08-11-2017, 11:06
Couple that with the fact that many loudspeakers can easily add as much as 5% distortion to the final equation, and it should be quickly understood that its not all about distortion!!!:)
Numbers can be very revealing - but they have to be the right numbers and they have to be interpreted correctly. To me the "0.1% distortion" figure is misleading because it's the distortion at full power output. The distortion at low power outputs is much less, unlike a transistor power amp (or some transistor power amps, at least) where the distortion is worse at low power outputs than full power output.
I think that Marco's post 60 is largely assumptive; just because I sate all the numbers does not mean that I am blind to other factors, or deaf.
I admit to being more of an objectivist, but the knowledge we have by no means defines all, they merely state factors which we understand to a large extent, and which we then try to minimise.
Pass has worked a lot on low O/P level distortion.
Couple that with the fact that many loudspeakers can easily add as much as 5% distortion to the final equation, and it should be quickly understood that its not all about distortion!!!:)
Indeed! ;)
I do agree with Andrew's point about numbers only being useful if they're the right numbers and you understand them... Trouble is, most punters don't, but regardless they make their (often ill-informed) buying decisions based on them - and that's when the wrong conclusions are reached!
Marco.
I think that Marco's post 60 is largely assumptive; just because I sate all the numbers does not mean that I am blind to other factors, or deaf.
I never said that, but you *appear*, from what you wrote earlier, to be heavily influenced by them, to the point of now dismissing the use of valve amps on that basis... Seems to me to be quite conclusive and 'final'! ;)
Marco.
montesquieu
08-11-2017, 13:27
IME, valve amp performance is 90%+ about the circuit & transformer design, and only a few % about the particular valves utilised. For instance, Radford and EAR both have (very different) designs that use EL34s, both giving results superior to the majority of 'bog-standard' KT88 amps. Similarly, the MacIntosh 275 uses a different circuit design to raise it's performance above the norm. for KT88 push-pull amps.
My Leben power amp has the facility to re-bias across a wide range of power valves (KT120, KT88, KT66, EL34, KT77, 6L6GC, 5881, 350B, etc), and although I haven't tried them all, there is a lot less difference than most people would imagine with the ones I have tried, the overall performance being overwhelmingly determined by the circuit topology and the o/p transformers. In fact, I suspect a blindfold test would show it'd be quite difficult to reliably, repeatedly, identify which valves were being used.
Totally agree when I had the Leben 660p I bought every possible set of valves listed for it and TBH apart from some cheap Russian jobs they all sounded, well like a Leben 660p.
Valve types have sounds only in as much as the way they interact with the amp in question - I was surprised to find that the little Radford STA25 was more robust in the bass than a KT120 amp used in the same setting. But I shouldn't have been - the Radford had bigger output transformers for starters. Also the wattage was similar, KT120s were running about 40w, the Radford (amazing for the size of it) puts out about 38w (not 25w as commonly believed). It's all down to the transformers and how they are utilised.
farflungstar
08-11-2017, 14:49
I think driver tubes have a greater impact on sound than power tubes. IMO
I was surprised to find that the little Radford STA25 was more robust in the bass than a KT120 amp used in the same setting. But I shouldn't have been - the Radford had bigger output transformers for starters. Also the wattage was similar, KT120s were running about 40w, the Radford (amazing for the size of it) puts out about 38w (not 25w as commonly believed). It's all down to the transformers and how they are utilised.
Indeed. It's also no surprise that the Radford 'won' in the areas you've mentioned, especially against a KT120 amp that was clearly its inferior, despite it using bigger and (on paper) more powerful output tubes.
However, that doesn't mean that if you put the Radford up against a KT120 amp that's just as well designed, and has been fitted with transformers large enough and good enough to optimise KT120s, the results would be the same ;)
As ever, it's a question of context. You have to compare 'like for like', before making any meaningful conclusions in these matters.
Marco.
I think driver tubes have a greater impact on sound than power tubes. IMO
Yes, that can happen. However, it depends on the design of the amp and how the driver tubes are used.
Marco.
Floyddroid
08-11-2017, 17:48
Croft or Radford work well with Tannoy.
Croft?
I haven't dismissed valves, but my experience is that they are at least equalled by SS, and often beaten even purely on sound quality alone; bass damping, top extension.
I await a stunning valve amp demonstration, clearly preferable to a SS amp.
Come and visit me, then ;)
Marco.
montesquieu
08-11-2017, 20:47
I think that Marco's post 60 is largely assumptive; just because I sate all the numbers does not mean that I am blind to other factors, or deaf.
I admit to being more of an objectivist, but the knowledge we have by no means defines all, they merely state factors which we understand to a large extent, and which we then try to minimise.
Pass has worked a lot on low O/P level distortion.
My Radford STA100 measures lower distortion than many solid state amps; it also has proper bass authority while still sounding like a valve amp should in the uppers and mids. It can be done. Look at Figure 4 below - many solid state amps would struggle to meet these specs.
Not sure whether you are nearer me or Marco but equally I'd be prepared to put my Radford up against any SS competition.
http://www.radfordrevival.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/STA100-Leaflet-P2.jpg
Ah, you can't beat a nice wee set of graphs, to warm the cockles o' yer heart! :D
Marco.
Yes very nice set of curves.
However, SS has moved the game on in terms of objective measures, and even what I had regarded as an exemplary performance of my SPA2 is now beaten by the Benchmark AHB2, which my friend with a pair of tall JBLs similar to those I responded to recently and owned by a member, has two of. They are stunning to listen to, and the write-up below is shatteringly good as are its curves.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements
montesquieu
09-11-2017, 00:33
Yes very nice set of curves.
However, SS has moved the game on in terms of objective measures, and even what I had regarded as an exemplary performance of my SPA2 is now beaten by the Benchmark AHB2, which my friend with a pair of tall JBLs similar to those I responded to recently and owned by a member, has two of. They are stunning to listen to, and the write-up below is shatteringly good as are its curves.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements
The Radford data sheet is from 1967.
Been a great discussion, most of it over my head [emoji4]
Last night, even though my setup is sitting in the middle of the room all pushed together the speakers started to come on song, most likely due to having been run for about 7 or 8 hours a day since they came back.
I'm more inclined to think that my M-50 Power Amp IS doing the business ( it transformed my PMC 21's ) and it's the Xiang DAC/Pre that's holding everything back.
Ok it's hard to guage properly with the room in an uproar with decorating and the furniture all over the place.
I'm still edging towards just replacing the Pre Amp, but if an amp that suited came along at a decent price I wouldn't be put off going that way too, indecisive, well I used to be ? Now, I'm not so sure [emoji23]
Yes very nice set of curves.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/dHGU9y.jpg
Yes, I completely agree!
The rest of the 'curves' you can keep ;)
Marco.
Been a great discussion, most of it over my head...
Indeed, and that's the point I was making earlier... 90% of hi-fi enthusiasts are subjectivists, who aren't technically minded; they just want something that sounds good to their ears, plain and simple. Therefore when discussions on forums become too technical, most will switch off and lose interest.
Or worse... Attempt to understand what's being discussed, but get it wrong, and then use that information as the basis on which to buy equipment, often with the result of said equipment not delivering, sonically (which is all subjectivists ultimately care about), what they'd been led to believe by the 'numbers' (or graphs).
Or perhaps also being adversely influenced by so-called 'experts', who can talk a good technical game, but have the discerning ears of 'Derek the Deaf'! ;)
You can see, therefore, in that respect how easy it is for mistakes to be made by laymen, using measurements or technical spec to 'prejudge' the efficacy of equipment...
Last night, even though my setup is sitting in the middle of the room all pushed together the speakers started to come on song, most likely due to having been run for about 7 or 8 hours a day since they came back.
No doubt, Mike, as speakers only fully come on song when a signal has been passed through them for a while. In that respect, they need to 'warm up' like anything else :)
Marco.
Indeed, and that's the point I was making earlier... 90% of hi-fi enthusiasts are subjectivists, and aren't technically minded; they just want something that sounds good to their ears, plain and simple. Therefore when discussions on forums become too technical, most will switch off and lose interest.
Or worse... Attempt to understand what's being discussed, but get it wrong, and then use that information as the basis on which to buy equipment, often with the result of said equipment not delivering, sonically (which is all subjectivists ultimately care about), what they'd been led to believe by the 'numbers' (or graphs).
Or perhaps also being influenced by so-called 'experts', who can talk a good technical game, but have the discerning ears of 'Derek the Deaf'! ;)
You can see, therefore, in that respect how easy it is for mistakes to be made...
No doubt, Mike, as speakers only fully come on song when a signal has been passed through them for a while. In that respect, they need to 'warm up' like anything else :)
Marco.
oh there is so much wrong with that statement :ner:
Such as? :)
It's certainly the result of my experience to date, which is why before I'm going to have a 'serious' listening session (reviewing equipment or when people are visiting for a bake-off), I put a CD on repeat and turn the volume up to normal listening levels, for an hour or so before they arrive, along with making sure that the equipment itself isn't being judged from cold.
Oh, and I also ensure that the room itself is warm (but not too warm), not only for guests to be comfortable, but because hi-fi equipment (especially speakers and cartridges) sounds crap in a cold room!
Marco.
Such as? :)
It's certainly the result of my experience to date, which is why before I'm going to have a 'serious' listening session (reviewing equipment or when people are visiting for a bake-off), I put a CD on repeat, and turn the volume up to normal listening levels, for an hour or so before they arrive, along with making sure that the equipment itself isn't being judged from cold.
Oh, and I also ensure that the room is warm (but not too warm), not only for guests to be comfortable, but because hi-fi equipment (especially speakers and cartridges) sounds crap in a cold room!
Marco.
most objectionalists :eyebrows: would say the speaker wont change after its initial 5 minute break in. I was of course playing devils advocate hence the ner:)
Lol@objectionalists - how apt (in many cases) ;)
I don't give a flying toss what they think - I *know* what I can [very clearly] hear!
Marco.
Speakers do take a while to 'loosen up', particularly the suspension, of woofers and mid/woofers, maybe a couple of weeks at high usage.
With my second pair of ATC 50s A.J. of ATC said that the bass resonance would shift by about 10% after 'break-in', and that was exactly what happened. I do not think that they change over a two hour working period after that initial break in.
Also, getting the electronics up to equilibration temperatures makes much sense, they probably being optimised for that temperature.
The lovely woman in post 80 may make me go deaf.
Ha, you've better taste in women than in your hi-fi proclivities! ;)
Marco.
tannoy man
09-11-2017, 16:20
Croft or Radford work well with Tannoy.
Leak ST20 should be on that list
walpurgis
09-11-2017, 17:35
Leak ST20 should be on that list
Yes. The Stereo 20 works surprisingly well driving Tannoys. It's an amp I've used with them several times. Not to mention it sounds pretty good.
I had a phone chat with my mate (who really ought to be a member here :)) earlier.
He has Tannoy Chatsworth's with Monitor Golds and normally uses an EAR 861 or Monarchy Audio SM-70 Pro to drive them. Today he took delivery of a Creek Destiny 2 integrated and he advises me that (unsurprisingly) it sounds absolutely marvellous with the Chatsworths.
It's an amp I've been wanting to try myself for some time. Sooner or later, the right one will come my way.
NickGazz
09-11-2017, 18:54
I'm really nervous about suggesting this, but.... I'm with the "go with your ears" guys.
I bought a pair of Berkeleys when they were new (donkeys years ago), and partnered them with a Quad 33-405 II combo, and a Thorens TD125 etc. The Tannoys are really efficient, so you don't need the grunt to drive them, but frankly, this combo has a lake of spare transient power, and the Berkeley's could more than handle it. CS80 harmonics on Vangelis, kick n the gut rock, Bach Toc and fudge, utterly fab, as well as chamber classical, I found playing with the roll off on the speakers and pre-amp allowed me to engineer the balance of warm to bright. I've had Linn, Axis, and currently Shahinian Arcs, so do know what post fossil sounds like. I still miss them, and wish I'd never parted. Don't know if this is heresy?
Of course it's not. It's your opinion [emoji38]
I have to ask what is wrong with my proclivities.
montesquieu
09-11-2017, 22:36
I have to ask what is wrong with my proclivities.
Bring up the topic of measurements around here and your name might as well be Weinstein ....
I have to ask what is wrong with my proclivities.
Ask your doctor, but I'm reliably informed it's curable! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Bring up the topic of measurements around here and your name might as well be Weinstein ....
Au contraire, mon ami... When it's relevant to do so (as it was in your case, which I must say neatly illustrated the point you were making), it's welcomed, as it furthers the discussion constructively.
I was simply making the point that if threads become too technical, outside of the DIY room (not the case in this instance), it turns off the majority of the readership, as it's liable to go over their heads - a fact which Mike himself confirmed. And that makes the exercise largely pointless, unless the technical content is properly explained.
That's when 'techy chat' is beneficial, as learning is always welcomed. It's simply a matter of getting the balance right :)
Marco.
jandl100
10-11-2017, 08:00
I've kept out of this thread since my early observations about my own experiences with Tannoys and amps.
But as it seems to have evolved now into a discussion of amplifier types I may as well throw in an observation about my current system and listening preferences.
I have readily to hand 3 favoured amps -
a 150wpc Pass Labs X150 power amp (30wpc in Class A, allegedly)
a 25wpc Wadia 151 digital amp (no, really, not class D, it's a powerDAC)
a 12(?) wpc el84 valve integrated.
I love them all and have no current plans to sell any of them.
It would be difficult (but not impossible) to find more extreme variety of technical approach.
To me they all make wonderful music, and no I don't give a damn how they measure. And yes, all 3 sound different from each other.
fwiw my current fave is the el84 amp, but that may be because it was the last to arrive. :)
Regarding Objectivism and Subjectivism, my stance is as follows. (But critique any error in approach please).
The processes in objectivism can be laughable when extolled to support the choice of equipment which plainly sounds terrible, and we also use our perceptions, as we do in listening, to validate much 'objectivist' measurement.
My approach is to list equipments which measure well, and then choose which sounds the best, and this is the final arbiter.
I would be reticent to validate equipment which gives an immediate likability, but does not measure well, the ear/brain can be fooled by an 'odd' sound, one which has an obvious deviation when measured, from a correct presentation. eg., a stilted frequency range, or a colored bass which initially excites.
montesquieu
10-11-2017, 16:53
Regarding Objectivism and Subjectivism, my stance is as follows. (But critique any error in approach please).
The processes in objectivism can be laughable when extolled to support the choice of equipment which plainly sounds terrible, and we also use our perceptions, as we do in listening, to validate much 'objectivist' measurement.
My approach is to list equipments which measure well, and then choose which sounds the best, and this is the final arbiter.
I would be reticent to validate equipment which gives an immediate likability, but does not measure well, the ear/brain can be fooled by an 'odd' sound, one which has an obvious deviation when measured, from a correct presentation. eg., a stilted frequency range, or a colored bass which initially excites.
Spot on I would say.
@Jerry I must admit I have a hankering to hear one of the proper Pass amps with Tannoys. I've heard a couple of the First Watt ones, and whatever the push-pull one I heard was called, it was quite close to a good valve amp. I imagine the fully commercial ones are even better. Also should make your MBLs sing I would expect.
Regarding Objectivism and Subjectivism, my stance is as follows. (But critique any error in approach please).
The processes in objectivism can be laughable when extolled to support the choice of equipment which plainly sounds terrible, and we also use our perceptions, as we do in listening, to validate much 'objectivist' measurement.
My approach is to list equipments which measure well, and then choose which sounds the best, and this is the final arbiter.
I would be reticent to validate equipment which gives an immediate likability, but does not measure well, the ear/brain can be fooled by an 'odd' sound, one which has an obvious deviation when measured, from a correct presentation. eg., a stilted frequency range, or a colored bass which initially excites.
A topic that could probably do with a thread of its own.
As long as I enjoy the final sound, I care little as to how it comes about tbh. Once upon a time i might have:D
..life is too short.
My approach is to list equipments which measure well, and then choose which sounds the best, and this is the final arbiter.
Fair enough, but you see that's where we fundamentally differ. I couldn't give a monkey's trunkies how anything measures. That's not my concern; it's the concern of the designer who made it. I just want something that sounds good to my ears and makes believable sounding music, not that conforms to some notional concept of 'correctness'.
Therefore, I compile a shortlist of stuff I like, then either make some attempt to listen to what's on the list, before buying it, or take an educated (well-researched) punt on it regardless. Either way, stuff gets judged by being listened to, not measured.
I can honestly say that in nearly 35 years of being into hi-fi, not ONE single system I've owned or assembled was selected on the basis of measurements - and I've made very few mistakes in that time, simply by trusting my ears! :)
Marco.
montesquieu
10-11-2017, 20:57
I would never pick anything on measurements alone - but it’s amazing that how often it turns out that something that measures badly ends up sounding rubbish at worse, or patchy at best.
You can get stuff that measures well but sounds rubbish ... often though you find this is because it’s mismatched in some way.
Definitely not the be all and end all, but measurements are incredibly useful. ‘Faith based’ design irritates me far more than a focus on flat response or wide bandwidth.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would never pick anything on measurements alone - but it’s amazing that how often it turns out that something that measures badly ends up sounding rubbish at worse, or patchy at best.
Yes, I'm also a big believer in if something measures really badly, in critical areas, then it will almost certainly sound crap! But, I'd still need to listen to it first, just to make sure. And if it (somehow) still sounded great to my ears, I wouldn't give a toss about the measurements. That's never happened so far, though.
You can get stuff that measures well but sounds rubbish ... often though you find this is because it’s mismatched in some way.
Yup, *or* in the quest for it to measure well in certain areas, some information in recordings, which currently produced test apparatus can't measure for, gets lost in the process, consequently making music reproduced by the equipment concerned sound bland and 'flat' (as in lifeless).
I've heard lots of solid-state equipment like that, which on paper is a measurist's wet dream, yet sounds musically bereft. You can just tell that it's been 'born' from the readouts on test equipment, rather than *ultimately* from the decisions made by a discerning pair of experienced ears...
Definitely not the be all and end all, but measurements are incredibly useful. ‘Faith based’ design irritates me far more than a focus on flat response or wide bandwidth.
Yes, useful if they're relevant and you understand them, otherwise (as I mentioned earlier) they can be rather less than useful. No idea what a "faith based design" is. Perhaps you could name an example of such? :)
Marco.
montesquieu
10-11-2017, 21:43
No idea what a "faith based design" is. Perhaps you could name an example of such? :)
Quite a few doing the rounds maybe we could have a thread to list them all. They all take a shallow observation and generalise the bollocks out of it.
- Push pull amp design somehow 'interrupting the flow' so single ended as a rule sounds better. Ditto Class A.
- Feedback being the enemy of musicality - therefore lets have amps with no negative feedback (and to hell with the consequences for gain, output impedance, bass control etc etc)
- Silver wire - nuff said.
- (Popular 80s one this) The best way to avoid record damage is to have highest possible compliance/lowest possible tracking weight. (Resulting in far too many damaged LPs as stylii mistracked because they were set up too light).
- The list of digital bollocks is endless mainly because its principles are so poorly understood, for example I personally have a DAC without up sampling or a brick wall filter but that's because I like the sound of it, to say this is the only way to get good digital sound is nonsense.
This is only scratching the surface. I'm sure loads more could be added. By all means start with an approach or a principle and see where you get to but to build an aura of mystique around such approaches really irritates me.
walpurgis
10-11-2017, 21:49
Push pull amp design somehow 'interrupting the flow' so single ended as a rule sounds better
Audio signals are 'push pull' anyway. Otherwise we'd be trying to listen to DC! :)
Quite a few doing the rounds maybe we could have a thread to list them all. They all take a shallow observation and generalise the bollocks out of it.
- Push pull amp design somehow 'interrupting the flow' so single ended as a rule sounds better. Ditto Class A.
- Feedback being the enemy of musicality - therefore lets have amps with no negative feedback (and to hell with the consequences for gain, output impedance, bass control etc etc)
- Silver wire - nuff said.
- (Popular 80s one this) The best way to avoid record damage is to have highest possible compliance/lowest possible tracking weight. (Resulting in far too many damaged LPs as stylii mistracked because they were set up too light).
- The list of digital bollocks is endless mainly because its principles are so poorly understood, for example I personally have a DAC without up sampling or a brick wall filter but that's because I like the sound of it, to say this is the only way to get good digital sound is nonsense.
This is only scratching the surface. I'm sure loads more could be added. By all means start with an approach or a principle and see where you get to but to build an aura of mystique around such approaches really irritates me.
Ah, I see what you mean now, all of which I agree with. However, they're simply principles, not designs. I thought you were going to name actual pieces of equipment, designed on "faith" ;)
The most important fact to get sunk into your head in hi-fi, is that NOTHING is perfect [and that there is no 'best' anything], so there will always be some form of compromise needed.
Therefore, this game is essentially all about choosing your compromises, not attempting to create some false notion of 'perfection' (based on measurements or otherwise), as it simply doesn't exist!
Marco.
walpurgis
10-11-2017, 23:36
I had a phone chat with my mate (who really ought to be a member here :)) earlier.
He has Tannoy Chatsworth's with Monitor Golds and normally uses an EAR 861 or Monarchy Audio SM-70 Pro to drive them. Today he took delivery of a Creek Destiny 2 integrated and he advises me that (unsurprisingly) it sounds absolutely marvellous with the Chatsworths.
It's an amp I've been wanting to try myself for some time. Sooner or later, the right one will come my way.
A further message from my buddy today.
He is certainly enjoying the Creek Destiny 2 with his Tannoys.
http://i64.tinypic.com/2hedppd.png
You've had a desire for one of those
walpurgis
10-11-2017, 23:45
You've had a desire for one of those
Yes, but finding one in black is tricky (and the dosh to pay for it).
Tom's list of 'wrong and generalised conceptions' reminds me of other examples from my career.
"Tubing is stronger than rod" was one, and it is true that for a GIVEN AMOUNT OF MATERIAL PER UNIT LENGTH this applies.
But it has been taken to mean something else, which was almost saying that if you get a rod and drill it centrally, it becomes stronger. in other words removing material makes it stronger. (Ha Ha).
The other one that comes to mind is "Hot water freezes more quickly than cold water".
It is true that hot water LOSES HEAT MORE QUICLY THAN COLD WATER, and this may be written loosely as it freezing more quickly than cold water, but it does not actually become frozen more quickly.
Both water samples at some point in time drop in temperature to a given temperature point, and from that point on they both take the same time to freeze if the conditions are equal.
So unthoroughly understood ideas can abound and become 'folk lore', and also be completely wrong, and I think many Hi-Fi sales people perpetuate some.
walpurgis
10-11-2017, 23:59
"Tubing is stronger than rod" was one, and it is true that for a GIVEN AMOUNT OF MATERIAL PER UNIT LENGTH this applies.
Yes. That's an interesting one. I don't know but suspect weight for weight (not necessarily of similar materials), but with similar external dimensions it could be true. Due to things like compression and tension and lateral effects? Within limits, obviously a fag paper thick tube ain't gonna be too strong. Unless made of Graphene maybe?
RothwellAudio
11-11-2017, 11:29
Using tubing instead of rod is about weight reduction. By removing the material at the core of a tube - which isn't doing much for strength - you reduce weight without losing much strength. Similarly, you can have holes in beams to reduce weight without losing much of the strength.
Anyway, that's getting a bit off-topic.
Yes, I do agree that some people seem to latch on to an idea and then go mad with it as if it's the only thing that matters. Big power supplies - which the uninformed equate with good power supplies - are another example. I know one guy who bought a 1000VA transformer for a power supply for phonostage which required probably no more than 10VA. Nuts if you ask me. He had no idea how a voltage regulator works or what could be done to improve one, but he could look in a catalogue and select the biggest transformer available.
NickGazz
11-11-2017, 11:55
Nick here, second post, just realised I missed the previous 10 pages of this thread when adding the Quad 405 idea, already rehearsed earlier, so apologies, I'll read the thread next time...:doh:
Per above, having avidly read reviews advocating spikes, concrete plinths, and signal cables capable of transmitting national grid levels of current, a qualified electronics engineer mate poured scorn on much of it, hinting darkly about noise in power transmission, the fridge, washing machine, and interference from small children as being far more significant.....
Got a rude shock a few years back, when I had Quad 33-303 at home at the same time as a new Linn setup. In a straight comparison, you could hear the difference, slightly better clarity, less warm, a scrape more detail, but in reality, nothing that would transform your enjoyment / appreciation. I found nd the decisions recording engineers make have far greater real impact....
RothwellAudio
11-11-2017, 12:09
In a straight comparison, you could hear the difference, slightly better clarity, less warm, a scrape more detail, but in reality, nothing that would transform your enjoyment / appreciation. I found the decisions recording engineers make have far greater real impact....
Yes, maintaining a sense of perspective on all this is not a bad idea. Don't let the paranoia stop you enjoying music!
anthonyTD
11-11-2017, 12:13
:)
Yes, maintaining a sense of perspective on all this is not a bad idea. Don't let the paranoia stop you enjoying music!
My point really was that a little knowledge overheard, and without a full study and understanding, can become a Chinese Whisper.
Indeed....and so it often is with 'numbers', in terms of how genuinely meaningful (and therefore beneficial) they are to the listener ;)
Marco.
Well this thread just kind of died, but just in case anyone hasn't read elsewhere I'll just say that I ended up buying a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Power Amp which is now being controlled by the matching Pre Amp on loan from HiFi Corner in Edinburgh, who have been brilliant to deal with.
Since this photo was taken I've added an Intel NUC and a new HDPlex Linear PSU for my digital side and a different cartridge - Shure M55em with Jico SAS stylus [emoji4] I've also raised the Tannoys up about 8 inches using stepstools lol.
I'm going to have a wee clear out of bits and pieces so I can buy the pre amp, mainly a couple of spare cartridges, a Tonearm (maybe), a TT, and an integrated Amp, a linear PSU, I'm not into keeping stuff just for the sake of it so it would be as well sold off.
Once the pre amp is bought, my next move might be to have Paul at RFC build me new crossovers but I'm still thinking about that.
Some might have noticed that I've not been posting much lately, that's because I've been too busy listening to music, which can only be a good sign [emoji4]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/b0125d190da8326e2a124b5adb3525bd.jpg
What are you using for stands there Mike?
What are you using for stands there Mike?
A pair of these:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B06XH5W2PC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_wuOKAb6WJ2V07
I thought it was a cheap way to find out if raising them would improve them as I didn’t have anything else lying around to try [emoji6]
However I think they’re about a inch maybe inch and a half too high, I might drop them a bit by cutting the feet down.
I forgot to say the other adjustment to the rack will be to put a back on it to hide the cables, I hate seeing cable spaghetti [emoji35]
walpurgis
25-02-2018, 09:47
A pair of these:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B06XH5W2PC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_wuOKAb6WJ2V07
I thought it was a cheap way to find out if raising them would improve them as I didn’t have anything else lying around to try [emoji6]
If it works, then it works!
You didn't say how it was all sounding.
brian2957
25-02-2018, 09:52
Very nice Mike , certainly looks the part :)
Very nice Mike , certainly looks the part :)
Makes this a lot easier to carry [emoji23]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/5ae80cb1b0b48f9a3d9193f5c46464c4.jpeg
brian2957
25-02-2018, 10:10
Yes , hifi has a habit of doing that . Not as much as families though :D
walpurgis
25-02-2018, 10:11
Makes this a lot easier to carry [emoji23]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/5ae80cb1b0b48f9a3d9193f5c46464c4.jpeg
I've got one of those. :)
They give you one when you start living on a pension.
Lol @ Brian & Geoff both very true [emoji853]
some of us never recover ..
http://hereisfree.com/content1/pic/zip02/b_1325831882488.jpg
some of us never recover ..
http://hereisfree.com/content1/pic/zip02/b_1325831882488.jpgLol
hifinutt
25-02-2018, 14:04
got some folks coming today to listen to some amps with tannoy eaton legacy
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4627/38566412070_033454228a_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21KYWF9)P1050248 (https://flic.kr/p/21KYWF9) by , on Flickr
amps are thrax enyo of which there is a thread on pfm
naim supernait 2 which i really liked a lot with the eatons
pass labs power amp homemade
Bigman80
25-02-2018, 14:06
Looking forward to the results. Those Tannoys look lovely.
hifinutt
26-02-2018, 10:17
so had a great time here yesterday with couple of folks from other forums and our own firebottle [alan] who kindly returned my repaired bel canto stuff
the thrax playing with the tannoy eatons was pretty special , they certainly are a good combo . tremendous bass which was superbly controlled and lovely clarity of instruments . obviously the thrax is pretty esoteric but if you have big pockets its a match made in heaven . of course it can have dac fitted and be a very good one box solution that will eclipse a great many pre power options at double the price . extremely grateful to paul benge of hi fi guy for letting me have the thrax and eatons on demo [ did anyone get to the tannoy show opposite the bristol show ]
we also used the supernait 2 with them and this was excellent , i really like this amp which is a bit quirky with its decoupled mains lead and its idiosyncrasies but s/h they are good vfm
i am sure alan may comment further at some point
spendorman
26-02-2018, 10:43
The Classic Quad 303 works surprisingly well with Vintage Tannoys and is pretty much a bargain price. The Tannoys are a pretty easy load, so the 303 is fine.
The proviso is that the 303 is in good serviced condition, otherwise the sound is just OK. It's virtually a bomb proof amp. I am using one all day though Rogers LS3/6 monitors. It seems a waste of energy etc. using, say my Radford STA25 III for hours on end.
I have used the 303 with Tannoy HPD315's and it worked well. Also, a long time ago I used a 303 with Tannoy 12" Silvers, sadly, don't have them any more.
montesquieu
27-02-2018, 12:57
The EAR 516 in the classified looks a good bet for tannoys.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Firebottle
28-02-2018, 10:18
The Thrax (love that name) round at hifinutt towers was something else, it looked very well built.
The Tannoy Eatons were frankly superb. The image focus was pinpoint, a big :thumbsup: from me.
:)
The Thrax (love that name) round at hifinutt towers was something else, it looked very well built.
The Tannoy Eatons were frankly superb. The image focus was pinpoint, a big [emoji106] from me.
:)
@ Thrax - Should be for the price [emoji23]
£9995 for the Enyo 🤪
wee tee cee
28-02-2018, 13:49
@ Thrax - Should be for the price [emoji23]
£9995 for the Enyo ��
Gulp!!!
hifinutt
28-02-2018, 18:21
yes its a big bugger !!! this is with my big harbs
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4711/25504690457_3fe5589373_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ERLcUn)P1050259 (https://flic.kr/p/ERLcUn) by [/url], on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4664/40377131421_f988deeb6a_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1050251 (https://flic.kr/p/24vZmsi) by , on Flickr
i was after reducing my boxes with one box , but its just a bit too big . it would walk all over a lot of high end pre power stuff though . the dealer [hi fi guy] will be collecting it and the MASSIVE carrier case will leave a big space in the lounge
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4605/25504682657_3072e10093_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1050250 (https://flic.kr/p/ERLazT) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/], on Flickr
hifinutt
28-02-2018, 18:22
incidentally by coincidence that issue of hi fi critic has a pic of the thrax spartacus on the front
Well this thread just kind of died, but just in case anyone hasn't read elsewhere I'll just say that I ended up buying a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Power Amp which is now being controlled by the matching Pre Amp on loan from HiFi Corner in Edinburgh, who have been brilliant to deal with.
Since this photo was taken I've added an Intel NUC and a new HDPlex Linear PSU for my digital side and a different cartridge - Shure M55em with Jico SAS stylus [emoji4] I've also raised the Tannoys up about 8 inches using stepstools lol.
I'm going to have a wee clear out of bits and pieces so I can buy the pre amp, mainly a couple of spare cartridges, a Tonearm (maybe), a TT, and an integrated Amp, a linear PSU, I'm not into keeping stuff just for the sake of it so it would be as well sold off.
Once the pre amp is bought, my next move might be to have Paul at RFC build me new crossovers but I'm still thinking about that.
Some might have noticed that I've not been posting much lately, that's because I've been too busy listening to music, which can only be a good sign [emoji4]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/b0125d190da8326e2a124b5adb3525bd.jpg
Did you end up keeping your Berkeleys on stands of some sort ?
Did you end up keeping your Berkeleys on stands of some sort ?Hi,
No they're just sitting on their own base that's already fitted to the underside of the speaker.
Pair this with a simple pre and your made
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?77093-FS-Neurochrome-686-or-PX-for-Lyngdorf
Pair this with a simple pre and your made
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?77093-FS-Neurochrome-686-or-PX-for-LyngdorfCurrently using a Denon PMA850 from around the same era of the speakers.
It's all the amp I need, it's excellent ;)
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