Vintage Tannoy 12" monitor golds vs. Harbeth

[No Regrets]

Hello,

I am thinking about assembling a secondary system in a small den (12.5ft x 13.5ft) for listening to combo jazz, female vocalists, acoustic guitar music, cello sonatas, and the like.

I have come across a pair of vintage Tannoy 12" monitor golds(from the sixties) that are mounted in custom cabinets made of baltic birch and walnut veneers, heavily braced and lined with acoustic foam (weighing about 70 pounds each). The crossovers have been rebuilt with new audiophile components and the compensator dials have been removed and hardwired in. The cabinet is about 40"tall, 15"wide, 13 inches deep and have twin ports on the front baffle towards the bottom of the cabinet. I am told that it is tuned to about 40hz which may be ideal for the small room they would be used in as well as the music that would be played on them most times.

Being that I have never heard vintage Tannoys, I wondering if anyone would be willing to speculate how these would sound compared to perhaps Harbeth Compact 7's or maybe classic Spendors?

I have been told that the Tannoys are very sensitive speakers, so I would probably being using one of my lower watt tube amps....a very dynamic, full sounding 15 watt EL84 tube amp to drive them.

Thank you for any and all comments that you are willing to share with me.
Don

[Ali Tait]

EL84's are a very musical valve I find.Should be a very nice match with Tannoys,but then they sound nice with pretty much any speaker!

[DSJR]

Tanoys are fun, but will be more coloured and probably have no more bass extension than the Harbeths as the latter are far less efficient but may allow more bass extension because of this.

1960's Tannoys don't have huge power handling either, so to take advantage of their sensitivity I'd look at some good valve amps as you're going to do..

I wasn't a fan of the first Compact 7's, as they could sound tubby in the mid bass all too easily. The current ones have a different cone, damping and the box has been re-tuned as well, the result being a much better bass performance IMO.

Both types of speaker have their excellent points and liking both, it's hard for me to suggest which way to go. Current harbeths are twenty plus years ahead of Spendor, who regarded their classic range almost as an embarassment for some years, Phil Swift playing them right down for the UK market when he bought the company nine years or so ago and was plugging the excellent but undemonstrative S series instead.

Tannoy drivers with decent MODERN crossovers in well made cabinets will always be huge fun and for domestic use and used with vintage systems will be a great thing to do IMO. At least Lockwoods can re-build these old drivers and surpass the original performance and power handling in the process.

The Harbeths of today are easy loads and they have genuinely tried to push the speaker boundaries forward - in terms of speech reproduction along with reproduction of well recorded acoustic instruments, they'll knock vintage Tannoys into a cocked hat. Whether you like this or not is up to you, but you very rarely see Harbeths up for sale anywhere...

[No Regrets]

Hello Gentlemen,

Thank you for your replies. Unfortunately I have yet to be able to hear vintage Tannoys or Harbeth speakers for myself. The closest Harbeth dealer is about a 9 hour car ride from where I live and Tannoys are extremely rare to almost nonexistant in the "midwestern" US. It's good to know that I will probably be able to use one of my EL84 tube amps with either. I hate to have to go out and get new amplification, besides I love what these little amps can do! They can be quite majical in their own right.

I appreciate your comments. So If I am understanding you correctly the Harbeths would come across as being more transparent and true to the recording and maybe the vintage Tannoys would be more colored, maybe like viewing the recording while wearing rose colored sunglasses?

There is one other company that has my interest which I also have not been able to hear as of yet. That would be from France, Jean Marie Reynaud Loudspeakers. They make a small stand mounted speaker that might be ideal for the room that I intend to use, called the "Bliss" formerly known as the "Duet".

I'm wondering if anyone has been able to listen to the JMR line of speakers and be willing to share their thoughts on these?

You help is very much appreciated.

Don (No Regrets)

[DSJR]

You've sort of got the Harbeths right, but they DON'T sound clinical or "bleached" in the slightest, quite the opposite in fact. There's a lovely warmth at all volumes so the little amp you wish to use won't be stretched.

The Tannoys WON'T sound boxy and/or squawky as long as the crossover's been sorted and the boxes are stout or well damped. I think a lot of potential Tannoy issues are in the crossovers due to iffy switchgear and now ancient caps. The loading of these oldies was around 11 ohms as I recall, so they're no issue to drive..

[Ali Tait]

I was going to say,I'm surprised Marco hasn't jumped in to say that fettled Tannoys are NOT coloured! :lolsign:

[DSJR]

Marco's probably aren't. but he isn't using lancasters, Yorks etc, let alone Ard'Ons...:eyebrows:

[Marco]

I appreciate your comments. So If I am understanding you correctly the Harbeths would come across as being more transparent and true to the recording and maybe the vintage Tannoys would be more colored, maybe like viewing the recording while wearing rose colored sunglasses?


Hehehe... Er, not quite Don, but welcome to AOS! :eyebrows:

I'll get to this later, peeps!

Marco.

[No Regrets]

You've sort of got the Harbeths right, but they DON'T sound clinical or "bleached" in the slightest, quite the opposite in fact. There's a lovely warmth at all volumes so the little amp you wish to use won't be stretched.

The Tannoys WON'T sound boxy and/or squawky as long as the crossover's been sorted and the boxes are stout or well damped. I think a lot of potential Tannoy issues are in the crossovers due to iffy switchgear and now ancient caps. The loading of these oldies was around 11 ohms as I recall, so they're no issue to drive..

Hi Dave,

Thank you for clarifying the "Harbeth Sound" to me. It sounds as if they would be lovely speakers.

As far as the pair of vintage Tannoys that I am considering....Their crossovers have been gone over with the replacement of the capacitors using Solen for the low pass filters and Sonicap IS Gen elsewhere. Also the resistors were replaced with Mills wirewound. The crossovers are now hardwired in directly, thereby eliminating excess wire as well as bypassing the controls and switches.

Their cabinets are completely custom and far from being flimsy. They are made from baltic birch ply and walnut veneers. They measure rougly 40" tall by 16" wide by 13" deep and have twin round ports on their front lower baffle. They are heavily braced internally as well as lined with thick acoustic foam dampeners. Each cabinet weighs in at just over 70 pounds. I am hoping that with all of this work done to them that they would not sound coloured, but I guess the proof will be in the listening, as they say.

If these vintage Tannoy 12" golds in these custom cabinets do not end up sounding boxy and coloured, I wonder how their sound may differ from the Harbeths?

I wonder if they would sound more dynamic (higher efficiency) with a feeling of more weight (12" driver and larger box vs 8" and smaller box)?

I wonder if one speaker would convey the harmonic structure of instruments better then the other....for example the resonance of a cello.

Another thought would be how their off axis listening would be. I would be using these speakers in a den where I would be seated in the sweet spot, but my wife would be seated off to the side. I realize that this is hardly ideal for any speaker, but some speakers seem to deal with this better than others.

Thank you to all for sharing your thoughts with me.

Don (No Regrets)

[Hypnotoad]

Vintage speakers aren't any good.

Wait a minute, my speakers are vintage.

No, vintage speakers are fantastic!

But the Harbeth's sound like they are very good as well.

[No Regrets]

Hehehe... Er, not quite Don, but welcome to AOS! :eyebrows:

I'll get to this later, peeps!

Marco.

Hello Marco,

Thank you for the welcome. I'm looking forward to hearing your comments when you have the time.

Kind regards,
Don (No Regrets)

[Ali Tait]

Marco's probably aren't. but he isn't using lancasters, Yorks etc, let alone Ard'Ons...:eyebrows:


Yes,and Don is talking about Tannoys in custom cabinets and fettled crossovers also.

[bonneville]

Hi Ali
If and when you are down my way again please call in and have a listen to original Tannoys 15" M/Golds .I would like your unbiased opinion,with your bat like hearing.:)I wont tell you my score on the hearing test on Nick's site :lol:but I bet you can guess is was not anywhere near to yours.:(

Vinnie

[Ali Tait]

Haha,did you squeak?? I'd love to Vinnie,I'll let you know.

One thing I found doing this frequency thing is you really don't need anything above 12-14k musically speaking,as there's very little if any musical information at those frequencies.I think in the past it was latched onto that humans could hear from 20 to 20k,so therefore speakers MUST be able to reproduce these frequencies.IMO it really isn't necessary.

[DSJR]

But when we're talking about *untamed* pepperpot tweeters taking off like a buzz saw and almost whistling above 9KHz then this may just be a problem for some people...

Harbeths and the better Spendors have treble - when it's there - but not otherwise.....

[bonneville]

How many "tamed" pepperpots have you heard? or are you being careful not to upset Marco by rubbishing all Tannoys?

Vinnie

[Dave Hewitt]

Hi
I have heard a few tannoys in my time but can't say I got the buzzsaw effect.
Dave.

[hifi_dave]

You should hear the LGM's I've got and to a lesser extent but still painful, the IIILZ.......:steam:

[DSJR]

How many "tamed" pepperpots have you heard? or are you being careful not to upset Marco by rubbishing all Tannoys?

Vinnie

The prestige models I've heard (10" and 12") drivers are as sweet as a nut - Hang on, they may have the tulip waveguide though...

All the 1970's models I heard in my youth had a slight sting in the highish treble and on measurement, the tweeter at very high frequencies took off like a roller-coaster. This wouldn't be as much of a problem to me now in my fifties, but as a teenager it was all too obvious. the HPD's tending to flab up the bass a bit and this sort of balanced things..

Nowadays, many Monitor Golds have benefitted from Tannoy's extensive research carried out in the early eighties (by which time the UK market had all but abandoned the traditional DC series and the DC2000's and 3000's hadn't yet appeared). The switchgear has either been abandoned or substantially modified and crossovers modified and "boutiqued."


For a 15WPC valve amp, Tannoys with their far greater efficiency may be the best bet to save straining the amp. The p3's will be around 10db less efficient, thus needing around 70WPC to have the same relative headroom I think.

[No Regrets]

Hello gentlemen,

I appreciate the comments and the discussion. I believe that the speakers that I am looking at are early Monitor Golds from I believe 1968 or 1969. They have the doped corrugated paper surround. They are not the hpd's with the foam or rubber surrounds. I say this because I believe that there were changes made throughout the years beginning with the Blacks, Silver, Reds, Golds, Hpd's , etc.

I wonder if all the vintage Tannoys exibit the hot treble or if it is only specific to certain time frames of their history?

I had some time off from work this weekend and tried to make an appointment with the seller to have me come and give them a listen, but unfortunately it didn't work for him. I am not willing to buy them without hearing them first.....the last thing I want is a hot treble. I am willing to make the over 5 hour car ride each way, but it may take time before we can get our schedules to align properly.

I do appreciate the comments thus far.

Oh, by the way. Do you think the Harbeth Compact 7es3 would be easier to drive then the Harbeth P3?

Thanks again,
Don (No Regrets)

[hifi_dave]

I have Tannoy IIILZ and LGM, both are BRIGHT and the LGM is excrutiatingly BRIGHT. The latest Prestige range is very well behaved, no problems in this department. Other vintage models are not all like the two I have though.

The Harbeth 7ES3 and the P3ESR are both an easy drive despite the specs. I would rate them similar and no problem with any amp except a 2 watt SET. The smallest amp I have used successfully with the whole Harbeth range is the Quad 11 at a mere 12 wpc.

[No Regrets]

I have Tannoy IIILZ and LGM, both are BRIGHT and the LGM is excrutiatingly BRIGHT. The latest Prestige range is very well behaved, no problems in this department. Other vintage models are not all like the two I have though.

The Harbeth 7ES3 and the P3ESR are both an easy drive despite the specs. I would rate them similar and no problem with any amp except a 2 watt SET. The smallest amp I have used successfully with the whole Harbeth range is the Quad 11 at a mere 12 wpc.

Hello Hi-fi Dave,

I'm glad to hear that not all of the vintage Tannoys are excrutiatingly bright. I have heard a couple reports elsewhere now that the particular vintage speaker driver that I am considering is exceptionally smooth sounding and if anything, could possibly benefit a little from using a supertweeter to enhance the sense of "air".

I am glad to hear that the Harbeth line will respond so well to the tube amplification as well. I look forward to the time when I will be able to actually hear them, as their reviews sound very inviting.

Thank you for sharing your comments.
Don (No Regrets)

[DSJR]

The early 70's big Tannoys I heard certainly sparkled, but NEVER screeched.

Many far eastern Harbeth users have valve amps, although it's more for cachet with these IMHO... You use what you like with them and if that means a good old NAD or an A&R A60 go right ahead...

[No Regrets]

I was just reading over some of my old threads and realized I never updated this one.

I ended up buying the vintage Tannoy Monitor Golds type lsu/hf/12/8 12" in custom built cabinets. I think that they are a very transparent speaker revealing changes in upstream components very easily. They are also very sweet and not hard or glaring in the high frequencies at all. I like them very much.

I posted some pictures of them in the gallery as well as some photos of my main listening system too.

Best regards,
Don (No Regrets)

[Marco]

Hi Don,

Good move! I use vintage Tannoy 15" Monitor Golds (in Lockwood cabinets) and they also sound just as you describe.

Have you upgraded the original crossovers, though (as many of the old capacitors will be well past their sell-by date)? If not, you've still got LOADS more to come from your Golds - trust me! ;)

Removing the treble adjustment controls and hardwiring the crossovers (with the treble output set at the 'flat' position) directly to the drive units also significantly improves things :)

Marco.

[No Regrets]

Hello Marco,

Yes, the crossover have been redone and hardwired in. I had just posted some pictures of them in the gallery section and went into a little more detail about them there.

Also, here is a link talking about my search of speakers for this secondary system. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5515

Best regards,
Don (No Regrets)

[DSJR]

Looks great from what I can see. Any of the Harbeths need a fair distance from rear walls to balance properly, yet i've seen and heard so many Tannoys being used like yours in the dim and distant past, it obviously works a treat :)