How hi (-fi) can you go?

[Firebottle]

An EE’s progress over the last few months for system improvement.
A lot has happened over the past months with sometimes startling success.

Firstly I want to champion the case for synergy. It’s not something that you can order or compute but it can have such an impact on ultimate results, particularly if you haven’t got it. For example a power amp not coping with an awkward part of a specific speaker load, it doesn’t need to be over a wide frequency range to upset things. Or a mismatch of impedances between pre and power, or with a passive pre.

Certain design approaches can mitigate possible problems, in general low output impedances and high input impedances go a long way to help prevent problems. :thumbsup:

The other important factor IMO is having a chain of components that are of equal performance, such that improvements throughout the chain can be heard and appreciated. Having low distortion wide bandwidth amplification helps here.

I love valves for small signal amplification. Choosing the best can be tricky, see the developments made further on. Good circuit design is crucial for best results. :thumbsup:

As a techie I do have test equipment (obviously) but only use it to confirm functionality, check bandwidth and measure gain figures. The ultimate tool for performance evaluation is a good pair of ears and here I have a secret weapon. A younger and more acute pair of ears by the name of Bigman80, who has been extremely helpful, apart from pushing me down the path of lightening the wallet to achieve the improvements.

A quick run down of the kit in use and some background details.
The speakers. The ubiquitous Quad ESL57, not perfect by any means but what they do well is beyond reproach. Exceedingly low colouration and no enclosure resonances. As a lot of folks say, mid-range to die for, but the extremes can be bolstered as shown later.

The power amp. My own design dual mono valve hybrid using a valve for amplification and MOSFETS for output drivers. Good low output impedance, a bit of overkill with 90W driving Quads so easy going on the output levels. Not much to look at but the case was a donor.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2mw81mx.jpg


The sub woofer. A copy of the REL Stadium, a kit enclosure from Wilmslow Audio many moons ago fitted with a 10 inch car subwoofer with a good response down to 25Hz.
Downward firing, the legs are the originals from the ESL57’s.

http://i66.tinypic.com/xlkmtf.jpg


The sub amplifier. Rather than build it into the sub enclosure I chose to have it in a separate enclosure, the original one wasn’t pretty and the twin toroidal transformers had an annoying mechanical hum. So recently I rebuilt it into an AIR case and replaced the mains transformer with a single quiet one. MOSFET output putting 50W into 4 ohm.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2111o9v.jpg


The preamp. My own design KIN valve hybrid with ‘super linear’ triode amplification stages. The unit uses a mu circuit that tricks the valves into thinking they are in valve utopia. The result is better linearity, more gain and vanishingly low distortions. MM and MC capability via a JFET cascode input, improvements later. :thumbsup:

http://i63.tinypic.com/2iaapoy.jpg


The turntable. A humble Goldring Lenco GL 75 in stock form apart from new V blocks and a delrin ball in the main bearing. Oh and additional weight on the counterweight necessary for the fitting of a DL-103, it’s a heavy beast.

http://i64.tinypic.com/15ogmy1.jpg


The cartridge. One of the recent additions, a fabulous ZYX R-100. It does everything that the 103 does with fantastic drive but so much more. More detail, separation, frequency extension and image depth, fabulous. A bonus was that I didn’t have to remove the extra counterweight, with the combined weight right up against the bearing assembly the R-100 balanced perfectly. Synergy or what?

http://i63.tinypic.com/256uvt3.jpg



So the improvements over the last few months:

The purchase of the Z-100. I won’t be looking to better this, all the detail and tremendous imaging are first class. Helped of course by the balance of performance with the rest of the kit, see further on.
This really is a stella performer, with the final improvements the music detail and focus are some of the best I have ever heard.
___________________

Re-building the sub amplifier. I managed to lower the bleed through of the internal variable clock and the background noise as well as removing the transformer hum.
___________________

Adding tweeters to the ESL57’s. One of the limitations is the treble dispersion and adding the additional tweeters has so overcome this. The crossover components are mounted behind the tweeters and the variable L pads at the bottom rear of each panel within easy reach for adjustment.

http://i66.tinypic.com/5nw32b.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2qwg45f.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2igjhwg.jpg
___________________

Re-visiting the design of the KIN preamp. After attending the bake off at Huddersfield it was realised that the performance was lacking and could be improved.
One comment made was a lack of downward dynamic range (DDR), a term used by Nick Gorham. It’s difficult to detect if you are not sure what to listen for or it’s not something that is pointed out. An analogy is contrast in a picture, you might get a lot of brightness in the picture but without portraying the darker areas correctly.

After consulting the design notes for the mu circuit I realised I had made too much of a compromise in limiting device dissipation, both valve and FET. Increasing the current levels brought back the DDR. I also lowered the anode voltages to better match published characteristics. More image depth and better dynamics ensued, this really was a worthwhile step. :thumbsup:


Another initial compromise, as it turned out, was the choice of valves to use, originally chosen to enable JFET cascode operation for MC, with a very simple circuit. (KISS principle)
Anyone who has had any Firebottle kit will know I avoid the most common valve types because obtaining the best examples can be fearsomely expensive.

As it turned out the PCC189 originally used is bettered in the linearity stakes by the PCC88, so with the ‘super linear’ circuit the improvements are doubly good, as has been heard.

http://i63.tinypic.com/fmkmcx.jpg


So now we have PCC88’s fitted, getting top class NOS examples is easier. I have a Telefunken and a Tesla fitted to the KIN and 2 Tesla’s in the latest Vivant build.
It’s not that I wasn’t a believer in tube rolling, as everything matters, it’s just that I have been trying for the best sound without reliance on the best performing valves.
So when Bigman80 insisted I go down this route I was very pleased with the improvements made. Again more image depth and width and more detail, a palpable sense of placement accuracy and focus. :thumbsup:
________________________

One more big improvement to come, but some details of the stand alone phono amp design in the latest Vivant build first.
The circuitry is essentially identical to that in the KIN after the improvements, but with very minor component value differences in some areas. Now fitted with Tesla PCC88’s it is indistinguishable from the performance of the KIN.

http://i65.tinypic.com/rtja14.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/14tsihl.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/n739i.jpg


Exceedingly good performance but ….. another small compromise was initially made to keep the MM to MC switching simple (KISS principle again). This was potentially restricting the ultimate performance achievable with a JFET input, as the operating characteristics couldn’t be altered. So to explore the alternative of using an SUT directly into a valve MM input (just the flick of a switch) I purchased a Denon AU-320 SUT.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2mpgykk.jpg


Discussion and testing has been undertaken on the loading of MC cartridges. As resistive loading is altered then different cartridges have different changes to their performance. Some seem to lose focus above say 300 ohm yet others are happy with loadings up to 1000 ohms. What I don’t quite understand is how a reflected impedance (through the SUT) of 470 ohms can can have such a dramatic improvement on the whole sound stage of the Z-100 in particular. I know it is now a reactive source (the cartridge coils) into a reactive load (the SUT) but the improvement is literally phenomenal.

The design mods to the KIN gave good improvement, the change to PCC88’s gave good improvement, the change to quality NOS gave good improvement, but the change to quality SUT into MM has given an improvement equivalent to all the previous combined. :thumbsup:

I’m staggered, over the moon and an extremely happy bunny all at the same time.

It’s brilliant.

[CageyH]

The Vivant build looks very neat.

It's a shame you are further away now, as I would love to hear the ZYX. I would love to see how it compares to my DL-103 which is on steroids.

[struth]

The viviant looks very classy Alan.. Glad youve made big inroads.

[Bigman80]

I really enjoyed reading, what essentially a diary of evolution. I'm glad you've taken the time to write it.

I have a feeling that when you get to hear the Vivant through my Slagle, your opinion on how close the KIN and Vivant are will change. When you hear it, that Alps pot will be on the way out [emoji23][emoji23]

Seriously, I've learned loads whilst listening to your gear through the stages. I'm glad we've both benefitted.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[farflungstar]

I really enjoyed reading, what essentially a diary of evolution. I'm glad you've taken the time to write it.

I have a feeling that when you get to hear the Vivant through my Slagle, your opinion on how close the KIN and Vivant are will change. When you hear it, that Alps pot will be on the way out [emoji23][emoji23]

Seriously, I've learned loads whilst listening to your gear through the stages. I'm glad we've both benefitted.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk+1

[brian2957]

Nice write up Alan . I had the pleasure if visiting you and Shirley last January and getting a good listen to your system which sounded excellent . I'm now very happy with one of your OTP phono stages . I would love to get down and hear your system again in the new year mate :)

[Firebottle]

You would be very welcome Brian and I think surprised at the improvements :)

[Marco]

Great thread so far, Alan. I concur with many of your observations, which are interesting. Particularly this, which I can relate to myself:


So to explore the alternative of using an SUT directly into a valve MM input (just the flick of a switch) I purchased a Denon AU-320 SUT.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2mpgykk.jpg

Discussion and testing has been undertaken on the loading of MC cartridges. As resistive loading is altered then different cartridges have different changes to their performance. Some seem to lose focus above say 300 ohm yet others are happy with loadings up to 1000 ohms. What I don’t quite understand is how a reflected impedance (through the SUT) of 470 ohms can can have such a dramatic improvement on the whole sound stage of the Z-100 in particular. I know it is now a reactive source (the cartridge coils) into a reactive load (the SUT) but the improvement is literally phenomenal.

The design mods to the KIN gave good improvement, the change to PCC88’s gave good improvement, the change to quality NOS gave good improvement, but the change to quality SUT into MM has given an improvement equivalent to all the previous combined. :thumbsup:

I’m staggered, over the moon and an extremely happy bunny all at the same time.

It’s brilliant.

Remember the experience we had at my place with the Paul Hynes head amp/Croft and your KIN, and also the little Lentek head amp at MIBO (the meeting Martin organised in Stoke), where going the route of MM stage, with a head amp, 'cheered things up' no end, and was clearly better than direct into a standalone MC stage - *despite* seemingly complicating the signal path? :)

I've known this for years, which is why my preferred way of amplifying the signal from a low-output MC cartridge is via, either a head amp or SUT, into (preferably) a valve MM phono stage. I'm not saying that it is *unquestionably* the best way of doing things, as there may be a standalone MC stage out there which disproves that theory, but to my ears so far, having heard and tried numerous different high-quality examples of the latter, over many years, the former approach always seems to produce the best (most musical) results.

Now the question is, do you, as an EE, or any other EEs here, have a technical explanation for why that should be the case, when 'on paper' the more direct way of using a standalone MC stage, theoretically is better..? Why should shoving another box and set of cables into the equation improve matters, which so often it clearly does? :hmm:

Marco.

[Firebottle]

Great thread so far, Alan.

So far :eyebrows: I think this is endgame as it is that good.


Remember the experience we had at my place with the Paul Hynes head amp/Croft and your KIN, and also the little Lentek head amp at MIBO (the meeting Martin organised in Stoke), where going the route of MM stage, with a head amp, 'cheered things up' no end, and was clearly better than direct into a standalone MC stage - *despite* seemingly complicating the signal path? :)
Marco.

Ah-ha, I knew you would pick up on this ;)
I do remember very well and the the opinion has been in my mind ever since. With personal experience of lesser head amps plus the above mentioned I have thought there is something to this.

As I have said the performance level of my pre is now at such a level where the MC input is a recognisable pinch point. For the reasons I have outlined I am loath to dive in to this part of the circuit, but Island Pink on here has done extensive experimentation, as well as Nick Gorham, to show gains can be had.

The thing is with a JFET input, another active device is being added, along with the imperfections associated with the device. Now you say, you are doing the same with a head amp, but I think with a quality head amp the design imperfections are small enough to be non-intrusive.

I think you will agree that the Lentek doesn't meet this criterion and does have a sound of it's own.
The case of using a SUT is adding a passive device without the nasties of non-linear transfer curves to screw thing up.

I think using a SUT allows the cartridge to 'breath' better IMO, but a better explanation is beyond me.

:)

[Marco]

As I have said the performance level of my pre is now at such a level where the MC input is a recognisable pinch point. For the reasons I have outlined I am loath to dive in to this part of the circuit, but Island Pink on here has done extensive experimentation, as well as Nick Gorham, to show gains can be had.


Could you explain the highlighted text, Alan, as I'm unaware of what you're referring to. Also what do you mean by a "recognisable pinch point"?


The thing is with a JFET input, another active device is being added, along with the imperfections associated with the device. Now you say, you are doing the same with a head amp, but I think with a quality head amp the design imperfections are small enough to be non-intrusive.


I would agree, but not only is it subjectively non-intrusive, but to my ears and yours, sonically (and musically) beneficial. It's that last bit I'm trying to understand.


I think you will agree that the Lentek doesn't meet this criterion and does have a sound of it's own.
The case of using a SUT is adding a passive device without the nasties of non-linear transfer curves to screw thing up.


In terms of the Lentek, no not really, as I find it to be a pretty neutral sounding device, which actually compares favourably with my much more costly PH head amp. The latter is still better in important areas, but the Lentek gets 85% of the way there. It's a remarkable little device, especially when subtly modded and used with a quality valve MM stage.


I think using a SUT allows the cartridge to 'breath' better IMO, but a better explanation is beyond me.


Yes, I would agree, although I also find that transformers (very much) have a sound of their own. Good head amps tend to 'peppier'/more dynamic, and it's an effect that I overall prefer. As ever in hi-fi, there's always a trade-off between one set of traits in equipment and another.

The 'magic' with SUTs is in finding one that forms a true synergy with the partnering cartridge (and phono stage), and when the 'recipe' is right, the results can be breathtaking. However overall, even the best SUTs, to my ears, sound 'softer' than a good head amp, as they lack the 'balls' and 'get up and go' of the latter.

In an ideal world, I'd probably use an SUT for jazz, acoustic and gentle male or female vocal music, and a head amp for rock, pop and dance - or anything that has a driving beat or rhythm. It's the PRaT thing again - and in my experience the best head amps have that in spades over even the most expensive SUTs.

So simply employ your 'weapon of choice', in that respect, and enjoy the music! :cool:

Marco.

[Barry]

Excellent write up Alan and a most interesting read. :)

I too use Quad 57s and have tried/experimented with augmenting the bass performance with a subwoofer. Sadly I didn't get on with it, particularly finding the correct level was impossible to set: either it would be too high and the bass was intrusive (roll-over set to 40Hz), or it would be too low and there was no overall contribution. It also varied depending on what was being played. Maybe I should have persevered, but the sub was loaned to me, so I didn't have a lot of time to 'optimise' things.

What are the super tweeters you are using Alan? What is the crossover frequency?

Talking of "How hi ?", are you still hanging the Quads from the ceiling? I think I can see the suspension hooks.

Anyway excellent work, well done.

[Firebottle]

This http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?53665-ESL57-banishing-the-sweet-spot gives you all the details Barry :)

[Firebottle]

Could you explain the highlighted text, Alan, as I'm unaware of what you're referring to. Also what do you mean by a "recognisable pinch point"?

By pinch point I was referring to the weak point, the area which is limiting ultimate performance.

Depending what JFET is used there will be an optimum supply voltage for that JFET to give best performance, as with a valve as well. I haven't incorporated any circuitry to make this adjustable.

[Marco]

Ah ok, gotcha now :)

Something to work on then, perhaps? However, it's not only the KIN's MC input which is 'challenged' in that way, in the face of a good head amp or SUT, used in conjunction with the accompanying MM input of the same phono stage, but pretty much EVERY standalone MC phono stage I've heard or tried to date.

Therefore, for me, something intrinsic/fundamental is going on, allowing the combination of MM stage+SUT (or head amp), when all else is equal, to 'ace' a standalone MC stage.

Marco.

[Jimbo]

Nice write up Alan and good to see your system has evolved since I last heard it so now I have something new to look forward to later this month.:)

I though I had finished messing with my set up until I put some new JJTesla valves in the regulation stage?:scratch:

[Bigman80]

Looks like there will be a few more updates after today's little listening session. Valves for 1!!! [emoji6] I'll let Alan tell the story.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Firebottle]

Something to work on then, perhaps?.........

Therefore, for me, something intrinsic/fundamental is going on, allowing the combination of MM stage+SUT (or head amp), when all else is equal, to 'ace' a standalone MC stage.

Marco.

Well, to follow on from Oliver's tease, and Marco's question above, there has been a breakthrough in the design of my JFET cascode MC input.

A bit of a double epiphany has been experienced today with the help of Oliver's TT/arm/cartridge excellent 'front end' and the use of my cobbled up valve head amp.

The first epiphany was dropping Telefunken valves into the Firebottle Monoblocks. Both of our jaws were on the floor :eek: The raise in performance was outstanding.

Prior to this I had suggested connecting my valve headamp into the MM input to isolate the JFET MC input from the signal chain, without really expecting much of a change. How wrong I was :mental:
The distortion level dropped, particularly noticeable on the bottom registers, with them becoming cleaner and easier to follow. This confirmed what I have said above about the JFET being the weak link and introducing non-linearity.

After a bit of fervent brain activity I realised why. Fortunately the existing design of the MC input stage, JFET/valve, was actually giving too much gain which is very rare for a valve stage, it's usual to be struggling to get 'enough'.

I've now been able to use the excess gain to linearise the JFET to great effect, giving a standalone MC that equals the use of an external SUT or headamp.

It's so satisfying to come up with a new solution, I'm chuffed to bits.

:D

[Bigman80]

"jaws dropped" is an understatement!!!!! A total shift upwards in terms of clarity and transparency. It was a stunning moment. I'm pleased youve opted to buy some too [emoji23][emoji23]

The Headamp was another shocking moment. It's taken a while to get to the bottom of where the weak point was but once this head amp went in, it became a completely differently phonostage altogether. Superb stuff. Looking forward to another listen at the bakeoff.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Marco]

Interesting stuff, guys. Would love to have heard all that for myself, particularly the trials with the head amp. Just shows that hi-fi is always a continual learning curve, no matter how much you *think* you know! ;)

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Interesting stuff, guys. Would love to have heard all that for myself, particularly the trials with the head amp. Just shows that hi-fi is always a continual learning curve, no matter how much you *think* you know! ;)

Marco.It was a definite "wow" moment when those (still sealed [emoji15]) Telefunkens went in. You know they are good when Alan spends money and buys some for himself 🤣

Same with the valve head amp. I'm now doubly excited to build my MM valve stage. (Valve Wizard PCB and PSU) Probably go Headamp over SUT but it'll be fun either way!


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[Jimbo]

Interesting stuff chaps. Now you know why I use NOS valves in the Croft and although I haven't tried telefunkens.

And to the think for all those years Alan you did not believe NOS valves would make a difference to your designs because of the way the valves were being used!:lol:

[Bigman80]

There's definitely some magic in those NOS glass bottles.

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[Marco]

It was a definite "wow" moment when those (still sealed [emoji15]) Telefunkens went in. You know they are good when Alan spends money and buys some for himself ��

Same with the valve head amp. I'm now doubly excited to build my MM valve stage. (Valve Wizard PCB and PSU) Probably go Headamp over SUT but it'll be fun either way!


Lol... Yes, he's not a spendthrift is our Alan :eyebrows:

I've been using the best varieties of NOS valves for years, Telefunkens included, so am entirely familiar with their (undeniable) sonic superiority. Once you know the reasons why they're better than modern varieties [how they're constructed and the materials used], you simply wouldn't put anything else in your equipment.

The trick is getting hold of good ones, as even the NOS or NIB variety can fail, go noisy or just simply sound shit.

Therefore, to minimise the risk of that happening, I only buy valves from trusted sources, and from sellers who own valve testing equipment, thus can post pictures of the measurements shown, after key parameters have been tested. I also like to know a little about the history of where they've come from, such as when they've been part of old military stock, which invariably means they'll be good.

As for head amps, well I've been using them for years. My preferred way of amplifying the signal from a low-output MC cartridge has for some time been via a top-notch head amp, through a similarly top-notch valve MM stage, and for good reason. What I haven't tried yet, however, is a valve head amp. I suspect that if done well, it would have the potential to outperform an SS one.

I believe that Alan has made one such device, so it would be interesting to test it against, say the Denon HA-500 you're planning on getting, or some other quality SS head amp, and see what the outcome is :)

Marco.

[SPS]

Interesting stuff chaps. Now you know why I use NOS valves in the Croft and although I haven't tried telefunkens.

And to the think for all those years Alan you did not believe NOS valves would make a difference to your designs because of the way the valves were being used!:lol:
Yes Alan was still a none believer at Dave's Yorkshire hi fi club meet
The old telifunkens are quite something
Cheers
Steve

[Marco]

Hi Steve,

Well you'll know the sonic benefits of quality NOS valves better than most! :)

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Lol... Yes, he's not a spendthrift is our Alan :eyebrows:

I've been using the best varieties of NOS valves for years, Telefunkens included, so am entirely familiar with their (undeniable) sonic superiority. Once you know the reasons why they're better than modern varieties [how they're constructed and the materials used], you simply wouldn't put anything else in your equipment.

The trick is getting hold of good ones, as even the NOS or NIB variety can fail, go noisy or just simply sound shit.

Therefore, to minimise the risk of that happening, I only buy valves from trusted sources, and from sellers who own valve testing equipment, thus can post pictures of the measurements shown, after key parameters have been tested. I also like to know a little about the history of where they've come from, such as when they've been part of old military stock, which invariably means they'll be good.

As for head amps, well I've been using them for years. My preferred way of amplifying the signal from a low-output MC cartridge has for some time been via a top-notch head amp, through a similarly top-notch valve MM stage, and for good reason. What I haven't tried yet, however, is a valve head amp. I suspect that if done well, it would have the potential to outperform an SS one.

I believe that Alan has made one such device, so it would be interesting to test it against, say the Denon HA-500 you're planning on getting, or some other quality SS head amp, and see what the outcome is :)

Marco.Well, the valves were purchased from an eBay seller in France who has excellent feedback and good knowledge. I have no reason to doubt his stock but as always, there's a risk. Plugged in and warmed up was like an epiphany. It wasn't even subtle. Yes, Alan has been a nay-sayer but it was undeniable and fair play, he got his wallet out as soon as he got home. For the price (£30 for 4 NOS PC88) Its a massive bargain.

Alan has built a Valve head amp and I was so thoroughly impressed with how it did the job I enquired instantly about building a high quality VHA. Unfortunately, it seems it's not possible to get the noise to an acceptable level. There is a way apparently that Glenn Croft tried which was fairly successful but you would need a lot of valves (Alan says)

As for valves in the phonostage, what was apparent yesterday, was that there is a beautifully delicate and rich tone which exhibits a fluid sound. I love that. The Jolida though is incredibly good and in my humble opinion, sounds a little drier than the Vivant but performance wise, it's very very close. I could live with either and never worry I was missing out.

My valve MM stage is progressing. I can't wait to see how it sounds. Will be some time though. I do have 2 Tesla and 1 Telefunken for it though. [emoji3]

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[Marco]

Well, the valves were purchased from an eBay seller in France who has excellent feedback and good knowledge. I have no reason to doubt his stock but as always, there's a risk. Plugged in and warmed up was like an epiphany. It wasn't even subtle. Yes, Alan has been a nay-sayer but it was undeniable and fair play, he got his wallet out as soon as he got home. For the price (£30 for 4 NOS PC88) Its a massive bargain.


Nice one. I'm sure that the valves you've bought are excellent, so enjoy. No idea why Alan was a naysayer, as there are valid reasons why the best NOS valves are superior to their currently produced counterparts, which if you look into in detail, provides all the info you need, in order to comfortably arrive at that conclusion :)

The first time, many years ago, I replaced a JJ ECC83, in the PSU section of my Croft, with a NOS (genuine) Tesla, and my jaw dropped at the difference I heard, that was it for me!! It's simply a no-brainer.


Alan has built a Valve head amp and I was so thoroughly impressed with how it did the job I enquired instantly about building a high quality VHA. Unfortunately, it seems it's not possible to get the noise to an acceptable level. There is a way apparently that Glenn Croft tried which was fairly successful but you would need a lot of valves (Alan says)


Yes, I can understand that. But it depends on what kind of noise we're talking about... Would it simply be some clean hiss, only subtly detectable in between passages of music (when the volume is turned up high), or something more intrusive than that, which can be heard over the music, regardless?

If it's the latter, then that's a no-no, but I'd personally put up with the former *if* it improved the sound, musically, to a sufficient enough degree.

After all, back in the days of cassette tape, most of us preferred recording and playing back music with no Dolby NR, as it opened up the top-end, robbed by its use (which dulled the sound), even though that introduced some hiss - and for most of us it was an acceptable compromise.

The little battery operated Lentek head amp I've got is hissy, when there's no music signal present, but otherwise is entirely unobtrusive - and for the money it makes wonderful sounding music, used in conjunction with the Croft valve MM stage. The fact that is uses batteries (a 9V one) is IMO one of the reasons why it sounds so good.

Perhaps then, that's something that Alan (or someone else) should look into designing, if valves prove to be too noisy in that application, and that's a battery powered head amp. For me, done right, there has to be some mileage in it, as anything mains powered will introduce mains-borne noise and distortion, to some degree - and any noise present in the signal path in such a critical application is bound to hamper matters.

Some food for thought perhaps at a later stage? :cool:

Marco.

[Bigman80]

I think the Nay saying came from the ultimate efficiency in the circuit which drives the valves at its optimum range. Although, a higher quality valve will out perform a lesser quality valve which has been proven to be true!!

The noise from the VHA was quite obtrusive. Crackling and hissing and audible at times in the track. I'm sure more could be done but wow it sounded great.

I'm gonna have to convince Alan to get designing [emoji23]

If there's a PCB out there I might build one up.

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[Firebottle]

A new passive/active preamp is doing sterling duties, so the KIN is taking a holiday.

It has passive and active (gain x4) outputs and is still being evaluated from multiple sources.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2rwp93k.jpg

The attenuator is based on a relay switched ladder arrangement with 0.5 dB steps and full remote control.

[struth]

A new passive/active preamp is doing sterling duties, so the KIN is taking a holiday.

It has passive and active (gain x4) outputs and is still being evaluated from multiple sources.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2rwp93k.jpg

The attenuator is based on a relay switched ladder arrangement with 0.5 dB steps and full remote control.

do we get to know what it is?:)

[Firebottle]

Maybe :ner:

[User211]

Maybe :ner:It need design cues from your trousers if you ask me Alan.:D

[Firebottle]

I have had the opportunity to compare this passive pre with a Hattor passive, using Khozmo attenuators with Takman resistors.

Now be prepared for a shock ......

There was NO difference in the sound, which makes this pre the bargain of the decade. Details :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Volume-Remote-Control-Relay-128-Steps-Exponential-Constant-input-impedance-4-CH/142811721459?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Total cost delivered plus duties - £110 :D Cost of Hattor - £1000 :eek:

So for the price of a Tisbury you can have a fully remote controlled 4 input first class passive, what is not to like?

[struth]

sounds good... pity it doesnt have twin outs... i like twin outs :lol:

[Bigman80]

I have had the opportunity to compare this passive pre with a Hattor passive, using Khozmo attenuators with Takman resistors.

Now be prepared for a shock ......

There was NO difference in the sound, which makes this pre the bargain of the decade. Details :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Volume-Remote-Control-Relay-128-Steps-Exponential-Constant-input-impedance-4-CH/142811721459?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Total cost delivered plus duties - £110 :D Cost of Hattor - £1000 :eek:

So for the price of a Tisbury you can have a fully remote controlled 4 input first class passive, what is not to like?My wallet doesn't want to believe this in the slightest.

Obviously, I'll be giving this the once over vs the DCB1 with Khozmo stepped attenuator. There will also be a turbo version I can compare to as well at some point. If it's as good, it'll be the bargain of the year.

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[STD305M]

My wallet doesn't want to believe this in the slightest.

Obviously, I'll be giving this the once over vs the DCB1 with Khozmo stepped attenuator. There will also be a turbo version I can compare to as well at some point. If it's as good, it'll be the bargain of the year.

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Hi Oliver

The DCB1 Turbo Will hopefully be ready within the next 2 weeks, I'm really looking forward to hearing if there's much difference between IT and your DCB1...
As you know the turbo version is very similar to yours but with a few extra components, still the same Khozmo Series attenuator tho, will also have to compare with a recent purchase ( like Alan ) I'm intrigued, very, as it cost me £98 and if my DCB1 build is not better ill be gutted...

I look forward to seeing both Yourself and Alan ( Cant wait to collect my FIREBOTTLE Monos )........

Regards Steve

[Bigman80]

Hi Oliver

The DCB1 Turbo Will hopefully be ready within the next 2 weeks, I'm really looking forward to hearing if there's much difference between IT and your DCB1...
As you know the turbo version is very similar to yours but with a few extra components, still the same Khozmo Series attenuator tho, will also have to compare with a recent purchase ( like Alan ) I'm intrigued, very, as it cost me £98 and if my DCB1 build is not better ill be gutted...

I look forward to seeing both Yourself and Alan ( Cant wait to collect my FIREBOTTLE Monos )........

Regards SteveHey Steve.

Well, the DCB1 is the best preamp I've heard so far. If the Turbo is better, I won't hang about in building the board up.

Alan has a knack of finding super value kit so it probably is very impressive. What I'm hoping is that the quality parts I enthuse about in the DCB1, will show why i invest in the good stuff. If it doesn't, it'll be an eye opener. I heard the Hattor that this has been compared to and it was very impressive. Hard to say how good in comparison to the DCB1 when it's not in your own system.

Time will tell. Looking forward to your visit matey.

O

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[STD305M]

Hey Steve.

Well, the DCB1 is the best preamp I've heard so far. If the Turbo is better, I won't hang about in building the board up.

Alan has a knack of finding super value kit so it probably is very impressive. What I'm hoping is that the quality parts I enthuse about in the DCB1, will show why i invest in the good stuff. If it doesn't, it'll be an eye opener. I heard the Hattor that this has been compared to and it was very impressive. Hard to say how good in comparison to the DCB1 when it's not in your own system.

Time will tell. Looking forward to your visit matey.

O

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Hi Oliver

I have a few spare bits for the DCB1 turbo board, Ill bring them up with me
I also purchased one of the little preamps too He He He

Steve

[Bigman80]

Hi Oliver

I have a few spare bits for the DCB1 turbo board, Ill bring them up with me
I also purchased one of the little preamps too He He He

SteveWhich one? The one Alan has???

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[STD305M]

Hi Oliver
Yes
I got mine before i started on the DCB1
Same as alan

Steve...

[Bigman80]

Hi Oliver
Yes
I got mine before i started on the DCB1
Same as alan

Steve...Ok, you can do the comparison too then.

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[STD305M]

Ok, you can do the comparison too then.

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Hi Oliver

I know WE can ALL do the comparison :lolsign: and then ill treat us all to a pint and some grub if your free ???

Steve...

[Barry]

Being a bit thick here - but what is a DCB1 ?

[Firebottle]

It's a DC coupled Pass B1 buffer. Very transparent.

[Bigman80]

Hi Oliver

I know WE can ALL do the comparison [emoji38]sign: and then ill treat us all to a pint and some grub if your free ???

Steve...Let me know the date and I'll see if im available. Jamie was talking of trying to get a Lift up with you. Wants to hear the SP10 PMAT10101 tonearm.

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[Bigman80]

It's a DC coupled Pass B1 buffer. Very transparent.VERY transparent.

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[Barry]

So is that a unity gain stage that follow a switched attenuator?

[STD305M]

Let me know the date and I'll see if im available. Jamie was talking of trying to get a Lift up with you. Wants to hear the SP10 PMAT10101 tonearm.

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Hi Oliver

Ill get in touch with Jamie and see if he wants a lift up
He'll have to stay over or catch a train back as I'm staying over

Steve

[Bigman80]

Hi Oliver

Ill get in touch with Jamie and see if he wants a lift up
He'll have to stay over or catch a train back as I'm staying over

SteveAh I see. No worries.

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[Bigman80]

So is that a unity gain stage that follow a switched attenuator?Yes, unity gain.

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[STD305M]

Hi Oliver
Just had a chat with Jamie
Hes already going over to Northampton to se Angus so won't be coming up.
Possibly come later on his own...

[Bigman80]

Hi Oliver
Just had a chat with Jamie
Hes already going over to Northampton to se Angus so won't be coming up.
Possibly come later on his own...Ah, no worries. Angus is better placed geographically so it makes sense.



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[hifinutt]

Hey Steve.

Well, the DCB1 is the best preamp I've heard so far. If the Turbo is better, I won't hang about in building the board up.

Alan has a knack of finding super value kit so it probably is very impressive. What I'm hoping is that the quality parts I enthuse about in the DCB1, will show why i invest in the good stuff. If it doesn't, it'll be an eye opener. I heard the Hattor that this has been compared to and it was very impressive. Hard to say how good in comparison to the DCB1 when it's not in your own system.

Time will tell. Looking forward to your visit matey.

O

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if anyone wants a dcb1 , there is one here

https://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/dcb1-buffer.218707/

[Bigman80]

if anyone wants a dcb1 , there is one here

https://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/dcb1-buffer.218707/Looks a beauty. After the events of this morning at Firebottles, if I didn't have one already, this would be on its way to me pronto.

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[montesquieu]

Looks a beauty. After the events of this morning at Firebottles, if I didn't have one already, this would be on its way to me pronto.



I've had several B1 preamps including a coupe of the DC variety, and rate them very highly. They easily compete with commercial stuff at 10 times the money. One was my main preamp for a couple of years until the arrival for a night of a Kondo M77 upset the applecart somewhat .. not that I have £40k for a Kondo but it was enough to set me off on a fresh quest to have some of what it demonstrated. The Pass is bloody hard to beat though in situations where additional gain is not required.

[Bigman80]

I've had several B1 preamps including a coupe of the DC variety, and rate them very highly. They easily compete with commercial stuff at 10 times the money. One was my main preamp for a couple of years until the arrival for a night of a Kondo M77 upset the applecart somewhat .. not that I have £40k for a Kondo but it was enough to set me off on a fresh quest to have some of what it demonstrated. The Pass is bloody hard to beat though in situations where additional gain is not required.

Things like the Kondo etc are just worlds away though, Tom. I don't doubt its ability, not for one second but us mere mortals need cheaper gems and the DCB1 with Khozmo is exactly that. A Gem.

Its the utter transparency that does it for me, i've not experienced anything like that previously so you can see why i am so enthused by it. I dont need any gain so its just perfect. The sound is sublime and i just love it. Can't be beaten for £400 it cost me to build it. £4000 to better it? I won't be trying.

Anyone know how well it works with a Krell? ;D

[montesquieu]

Things like the Kondo etc are just worlds away though, Tom. I don't doubt its ability, not for one second but us mere mortals need cheaper gems and the DCB1 with Khozmo is exactly that. A Gem.

Its the utter transparency that does it for me, i've not experienced anything like that previously so you can see why i am so enthused by it.

Totally agree .. for all the M77 was perceptively better I did feel considerable satisfaction that night as to just how close the Pass was running it in many areas. Not so much in transparency (in which it is known to excel) but in musicality and its way with flow, something that you'd think were more the Kondo's strengths.

[Bigman80]

Totally agree .. for all the M77 was perceptively better I did feel considerable satisfaction that night as to just how close the Pass was running it in many areas. Not so much in transparency (in which it is known to excel) but in musicality and its way with flow, something that you'd think were more the Kondo's strengths.

That's exactly what i thought when we did the bake off at alan's house, the DCB1 was organic, transparent and very musical. When the others went in, the qualities the DCB1 demonstrated just disappeared. It is engaging as well. I know i am raving about it but with good reason. I seriously recommend it to anyone to try.

[Firebottle]

Now I have the passive pre in circuit I have constructed a valve buffer stage (gain x4) to go with it.
I posted a pic of the board in another thread but it has now been boxed in an appropriately sized box :

http://i67.tinypic.com/okuzd4.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2moxpvp.jpg

The circuit as built was overrating the max heater-cathode voltage of the valves so I fitted a bias network to correct this.
I had to get the heatsinks off the board and put an isolator under them to prevent shorts.

[Bigman80]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] the cow box is just pure class.

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[Stryder5]

Creme de la creme! :clap:

[walpurgis]

I have a cow box. It's what I put the wife in when she's been naughty. :eek:

[Lawrence001]

I have had the opportunity to compare this passive pre with a Hattor passive, using Khozmo attenuators with Takman resistors.

Now be prepared for a shock ......

There was NO difference in the sound, which makes this pre the bargain of the decade. Details :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Volume-Remote-Control-Relay-128-Steps-Exponential-Constant-input-impedance-4-CH/142811721459?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Total cost delivered plus duties - £110 :D Cost of Hattor - £1000 :eek:

So for the price of a Tisbury you can have a fully remote controlled 4 input first class passive, what is not to like?

Got mine on Friday but as I was away for the weekend I didn't get a chance to listen to it yet. Just plugged it in and done some listening. It's clearly a quality piece of kit. Smoother sounding than I'm used to with my Django TVC (possibly a slight loss of some micro detail, but then the Django does have S&B transformers like the music first) and a little more bass than expected. It probably needs a bit of burn in though. I have to say, having a remote passive is very nice :)

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[Bigman80]

Got mine on Friday but as I was away for the weekend I didn't get a chance to listen to it yet. Just plugged it in and done some listening. It's clearly a quality piece of kit. Smoother sounding than I'm used to with my Django TVC (possibly a slight loss of some micro detail, but then the Django does have S&B transformers like the music first) and a little more bass than expected. It probably needs a bit of burn in though. I have to say, having a remote passive is very nice :)

Sent from my BLN-L21 using TapatalkAlan did some minor modifications to his which I thought were well worth it. Goes nicely with a buffer for an active option too.

For the money, this preamp is very difficult to beat.

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[Lawrence001]

Alan did some minor modifications to his which I thought were well worth it. Goes nicely with a buffer for an active option too.

For the money, this preamp is very difficult to beat.

Sent from my VKY-L09 using TapatalkI've got a Yaqin CD3 buffer on the way, wasn't sure about the brand but it's the only buffer I've found with 6SN7 valves, my favourites without going way up to DHT level.

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[Lawrence001]

Set up the pre tonight with the Yaqin buffer (which came with EH 6SN7 gold pins fitted) before the power amp and I have to say the bundle is competitive with preamps I've heard costing many time the price. No grain or rough edges, clarity but without in your face detail, nice soundstage in both width and depth and most importantly no sign of any fatigue. Perhaps a little smooth for my personal preference, but it's the sort of sound I've found people pay a lot of money for, and I will admit it's quite addictive when you get used to it...

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