PRaT trumps all

[worrasf]

Ok so I’ll preface this post with the admission that I’m well into a bottle of fine Rioja so make of it what you will - it’s intended to provoke discussion.
I’m fortunate to have 3 HiFi systems- the main one is very expensive - the others are expensive.
For a long time I’ve pondered that on many occasions an “ inferior “ system can sound “better” - sometimes listening in the car to a track sounds better than at home.
Tonight I’ve been listening to sounds through an iPod/Wadia 170/Wadia DACamp/Ruark Epilogues that I’ve had for ages and the sound is simply stunning. While it doesn’t have the ultimate fine detail of my main system (costing many hundreds more) it nonetheless conveys all the emotion and “sonic keys” that make for an engaging experience. In many ways it’s actually more enjoyable. I think the reason is that it has better PRaT at the expense of ultimate clarity and detail.
I throw this open for discussion


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[RobbieGong]

Well yes indeed, pace rhythm and timing IS rhythm = Musicality, Gong over and out :D

[Pharos]

I've never been able to even vaguely associate a concept to each of those adjectives for Hi-Fi.

[walpurgis]

I dislike acronyms. They are created by people who think they are being smart. The military and police (especially US) like them a lot! :rolleyes:

[Jazid]

I dislike acronyms. They are created by people who think they are being smart. The military and police (especially US) like them a lot! :rolleyes:... And every government agency that ever had to fight for a grant from the above.
But, going back to the OP it's a brave admission. I've no problem with PRaT as long as the resultant music doesn't sound like it's been created by a dentist on dexedrine

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[worrasf]

... And every government agency that ever had to fight for a grant from the above.
But, going back to the OP it's a brave admission. I've no problem with PRaT as long as the resultant music doesn't sound like it's been created by a dentist on dexedrine

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So folk need to be a little circumspect in their posts. I am both a dentist (and doctor) and a former captain in the Royal Army Medical Corps and am offended by both of these posts !!!


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[walpurgis]

:scratch:

[worrasf]

:scratch:

Oh really! The military think they are being smart!
My post was about musical appreciation and the perceived differences between low and high cost systems with the former IMO sometimes sounding better but you seem to think it’s ok to hijack the thread and demean the military for some reason- have you served yourself ?


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[jandl100]

It seems the new political correctness to demean the military and the police.
But there are some seriously bad folks out there (just look at the news) and despite their faults and shortcomings, it is the military and police who help protect us from them.
:respect:

However .... back to the OP :lol: ....

PRaT.

A Flat Earth term, a philosophy I never succumbed to.
Back in the old days it meant severe tonal manipulation to highlight particular aspects of the sound. Naughty stuff. :spank:

But nonetheless, it attempts to cover an aspect of music reproduction that is close to my heart.
A system without which, I agree, is not worth listening to.
I tend to call it pizzaz.
For me, it's the small dynamic inflections of a real, live musical performance that are all too often smoothed over and lost by a poor audio component or system.

So, yes, PRaT / pizzaz rules. :thumbsup:

[worrasf]

It seems the new political correctness to demean the military and the police.
But there are some seriously bad folks out there (just look at the news) and despite their faults and shortcomings, it is the military and police who help protect us from them.
:respect:

Exactly +1 [emoji106]

However .... back to the OP :lol: ....

PRaT.

A Flat Earth term, a philosophy I never succumbed to.
Back in the old days it meant severe tonal manipulation to highlight particular aspects of the sound. Naughty stuff. :spank:

But nonetheless, it attempts to cover an aspect of music reproduction that is close to my heart.
A system without which, I agree, is not worth listening to.
I tend to call it pizzaz.
For me, it's the small dynamic inflections of a real, live musical performance that are all too often smoothed over and lost by a poor audio component or system.

So, yes, PRaT / pizzaz rules. :thumbsup:

It is an acronym for Pace Rhythm and Timing. It is as you say a “back in the day” term that if memory serves was very much part of the Linn/Naim philosophy. I think your “pizazz” captures it very well. It’s what gets your foot tapping or not. [emoji3]


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[Andy831]

I don't give a monkeys what acronym you use its all bollocks :) the only thing that matters is that YOUR enjoying it Stephen nothing else is relevant.

I also find that my mood seems to affect which system sound best to my ears on any given listening session.

[struth]

Acronyms have been with us for a long time. go back to the Romans and the Greeks, so not really new, although nowadays it is true that govts and the military use them the most, mainly as they shorten some hideously long names. Guess if you want to blame anyone for their increased use it would be business and commerse in the usa in late 19th century onwards. Roosevelt called it Alphabet soup

[JohnJo]

Ain't worth a thing if it ain't got that swing.

I guess the key is to strive to get it all, resolution (or detail), soundstage, imaging, bass AND boogie factor.

But yes, I agree, for me, if it doesn't make me move forget about it...nothing like a bit of air conducting or drumming :D

[struth]

Ain't worth a thing if it ain't got that swing.

I guess the key is to strive to get it all, resolution (or detail), soundstage, imaging, bass AND boogie factor.

But yes, I agree, for me, if it doesn't make me move forget about it...nothing like a bit of air conducting or drumming :D

Prats then:guitar: whatever it is we all need it

[Haselsh1]

For what my bit is worth I think that in my case, the foot tapping comes down to the music. I guess in that case what you have said is true. I used to listen back in 1975 on an ITT audio unit and I was just as moved by the music then as I am now so with that in mind, the music was just as good. For me, it is not the system it is the music. The sound system just adds a little extra 'sparkle'.

[Haselsh1]

But yes, I agree, for me, if it doesn't make me move forget about it...nothing like a bit of air conducting or drumming :D

LOL, back in 1977 I started messing with drums and percussion because I could just not stop tapping and drumming. Even now I am the same. If it doesn't get me tapping some kind of disjointed rhythm it has a big problem.

[anthonyTD]

Hi All,
I also think that when you listen to music on something you class as not important, in the context of HI FI, you just listen to the tune, and enjoy it for the pure emotion that it brings!
I listen a lot to some of my favorite records on my old 1959 AMI jukebox for that very reason.:)

[Marco]

Indeed Anthony, which is why I wrote this the other day on another thread:


You have to get your head out of that 'analytical' zone and instead RELAX INTO the music as a whole, without 'intellectualising' [overthinking] the experience and fretting over specific aspects of the sound. Sometimes a way of achieving that is to temporarily abandon using your main (expensive) system, and instead listen to music on something upon which you place less sonic demands.

That's why you can often derive as much pleasure (sometimes more) from listening to music on something so basic as a portable radio, as you do on your main system - and also why after spending time listening on something like that, or indeed anything deemed as being sonically inferior, then return to your main system, you often appreciate how good it really is!


Relevant thread (and post), here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?54718-Why-do-we-do-it!&p=913808#post913808

:)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

Yes. The means by which one listens to music is less important than the music itself.

An example being, that I sometimes hear interesting music on TV and enjoy it. (then wonder what it was and track it down and buy it :))

[Jazid]

So folk need to be a little circumspect in their posts. I am both a dentist (and doctor) and a former captain in the Royal Army Medical Corps and am offended by both of these posts !!!


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSorry Stephen,
No offence intended! I come at this from the standpoint of a patient, where the basic expectation is:
Teeth hurt - attend dentists surgery - industrial noise levels in cranium and more pain - leave - things get better.
We are all grateful for the outcome, but not necessarily enthusiastic about the process. The image of a person driving a vibrating machine quickly and rhythmically into my skull is unfortunately (from the perspective of good manners towards you) too close to an accurate portrayal of an old school Naim presentation to resist.
Apologies to anyone else I have offended!

Edit: no apologies for my dislike of the acronym explosion. It's an enduring litmus of administritis, and plagues government bodies and (ahem) NGOs as well as in business. Not a criticism of the armed forces at all.

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[r100]

I dislike acronyms. They are created by people who think they are being smart. The military and police (especially US) like them a lot! :rolleyes:

the French government has an acronym for everything ;) you would need a acronym dictionary to decipher them all

[paulf-2007]

What's all this foot tapping all about, is it for non musicians who find they can tap their foot in time to the music, great. As a musician of many decades, I never feel the need to tap my foot no matter what is playing, I can keep good time thank you very much. When people talk about getting their foot tapping I get a vision of a room full of over weight balding men tapping their feet in unison.

[struth]

What's all this foot tapping all about, is it for non musicians who find they can tap their foot in time to the music, great. As a musician of many decades, I never feel the need to tap my foot no matter what is playing, I can keep good time thank you very much. When people talk about getting their foot tapping I get a vision of a room full of over weight balding men tapping their feet in unison.

Ive got all my hair ;) well on my head anyway :lol: hell, even my old mum foot tapped

[Firebottle]

... I get a vision of a room full of over weight balding men tapping their feet in unison.

It happens, I've seen it.
Admittedly not everyone but certainly some. I'm neither over weight or bald but it gets my foot tapping if the music is right.

:D

[Macca]

the ultimate PRAT system was always Linn Sondek LP12 into Naim Nait into Linn Kan Mark one.

I reckon that this is all about leading edges, the whack of the drumstick, the bite of the strings on guitars. The more a system emphasises that, the more PRAT it will have. Cutting out the deeper bass octaves by using small speakers will add to the impression too.

Obviously there is a level of leading edge impact that is correct, and since it will vary depending on the recording it can start dictating your music choice if taken too far. I think the system above over-does it a bit, so recordings with some 'bite' may be a bit too forward and aggressive. Go too far the other way, though, and everything starts sounding a little too soft and mellow, snare drums sound like cardboard boxes being hit, bass gets woolly, and so forth.

This is all a function of distortion, and nothing to do with any magical 'timing' properties that are claimed for certain equipment.

[narabdela]

the ultimate PRAT system was always Linn Sondek LP12 into Naim Nait into Linn Kan Mark one.



Definitely PRAT, if that's what floats your boat; but try playing a solo grand piano through that system and things start to sound rather nasty.

Not something I could live with for any length of time.



This is all a function of distortion, and nothing to do with any magical 'timing' properties that are claimed for certain equipment.

Very true. 'Timing' is one of the great hi-fi myths. (imho of course). :sofa:

[paulf-2007]

I dont need to tell you, drums are tuneable and many drummers have their own sound. On top of the that different set ups will change the sound of drums and other instruments. Its a minefield.
What is a leading edge?

[Macca]

What is a leading edge?

I did try to explain that in my post. With most instruments you have attack, sustain and decay of the sound it produces. Leading edge is the 'attack' part. Most noticeable on drums and guitars. If that is too soft, you have no PRAT. If that is overdone, you have a system that sounds great with bland, over-produced music and harsh and hard with less polished productions.

[Jazid]

I'd say many instruments have this characteristic, but we don't all have equal exposure or auditory memory of them. Piano and xylophone are particularly percussive instruments. Curiously whilst piano seems difficult to reproduce properly (to my ears) xylophone seems easier, though I have much less exposure to that instrument live so may be mistaken. Frankly, and comparatively, guitar seems a doddle to reproduce.

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[paulf-2007]

I did try to explain that in my post. With most instruments you have attack, sustain and decay of the sound it produces. Leading edge is the 'attack' part. Most noticeable on drums and guitars. If that is too soft, you have no PRAT. If that is overdone, you have a system that sounds great with bland, over-produced music and harsh and hard with less polished productions.
That's down to the recording engineer, like the balance needed on vocals to be close to but not have sibilance

[Macca]

Piano is tough because the sustain and decay requires timing to be perfect or you will hear it. Not an issue with digital, but with vinyl or tape much harder. And if the piano was recorded on tape you have the wow and flutter of the tape machine that recorded it to contend with: i.e the problem is on the recording and cannot be corrected on playback.

[Macca]

That's down to the recording engineer, like the balance needed on vocals to be close to but not have sibilance

It's both a function of recording and the playback. But since we can't alter the recording our only concern is to get it right as possible on playback.

[worrasf]

Sorry Stephen,
No offence intended! I come at this from the standpoint of a patient, where the basic expectation is:
Teeth hurt - attend dentists surgery - industrial noise levels in cranium and more pain - leave - things get better.
We are all grateful for the outcome, but not necessarily enthusiastic about the process. The image of a person driving a vibrating machine quickly and rhythmically into my skull is unfortunately (from the perspective of good manners towards you) too close to an accurate portrayal of an old school Naim presentation to resist.
Apologies to anyone else I have offended!

Edit: no apologies for my dislike of the acronym explosion. It's an enduring litmus of administritis, and plagues government bodies and (ahem) NGOs as well as in business. Not a criticism of the armed forces at all.

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De nada.

[worrasf]

the ultimate PRAT system was always Linn Sondek LP12 into Naim Nait into Linn Kan Mark one.
I had that system (almost) - LP12/Ittok/Troika - 32.5/HiCap/140 - Kan 1's on Kan stands - it really was bloody good if a little bass light. I remember enjoying it very much but also wishing I hadn’t sold my Mission 770’s [emoji849]

[Macca]

I had that system (almost) - LP12/Ittok/Troika - 32.5/HiCap/140 - Kan 1's on Kan stands - it really was bloody good if a little bass light. I remember enjoying it very much but also wishing I hadn’t sold my Mission 770’s [emoji849]

Yep, I would take the 770 over the Kans too. But small speakers are like headphones, you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[walpurgis]

Yep, I would take the 770 over the Kans too. But small speakers are like headphones, you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You should hear the original Mission 780SE's. Not all small speakers are equal! The Missions just don't sound small.

[Haselsh1]

It happens, I've seen it.
Admittedly not everyone but certainly some. I'm neither over weight or bald but it gets my foot tapping if the music is right.

:D

Maybe some musicians just don't get it either.

[Haselsh1]

I did try to explain that in my post. With most instruments you have attack, sustain and decay of the sound it produces. Leading edge is the 'attack' part. Most noticeable on drums and guitars. If that is too soft, you have no PRAT. If that is overdone, you have a system that sounds great with bland, over-produced music and harsh and hard with less polished productions.

Synthesisers of course have a fully variable ADSR for that very purpose and usually more than one.

[Macca]

You should hear the original Mission 780SE's. Not all small speakers are equal! The Missions just don't sound small.

If I had a quid for every time someone says 'This small speaker doesn't sound small' I'd be able to afford some big JBLs. :D

There's no substitute for a big driver in a big cab. It's the 'presence' thing. Nothing else does it, doesn't matter how many small drivers you string together, it isn't the same.

[walpurgis]

If I had a quid for every time someone says 'This small speaker doesn't sound small' I'd be able to afford some big JBLs. :D

Hmm. Years ago I built a pair of speakers with two five inch full range drivers that would out'big' anything you have Martin.



(mind you, they were in four foot tall and two foot wide folded horns that did BIG bass :))

[Macca]

Hmm. Years ago I built a pair of speakers with two five inch full range drivers that would out'big' anything you have Martin.

)

Maybe at the moment. But soon I will show everyone. Get revenge on world :eek:

[RobbieGong]

If I had a quid for every time someone says 'This small speaker doesn't sound small' I'd be able to afford some big JBLs. :D

There's no substitute for a big driver in a big cab. It's the 'presence' thing. Nothing else does it, doesn't matter how many small drivers you string together, it isn't the same.

I hear you, However in a large space / room that might be more of a factor, in your average small to medium room much less so.

Also big driver, big cab arrangements can overwhelm smaller rooms both sonically and aesthetically.

Balance also plays its part in hifi / systems and the way they present the music.

I used to be around sound systems a lot when I was much younger and know what you mean regards large drivers and cabs though.

The experience of a sound system clash, in a massive community hall, adorned with cabs containing 4 x 18 inch drivers, plus 15 inches drivers and 12 inch mids etc is unbelievable in terms of scale and bass depth.

The bass literally turns and stirs your guts inside out.... :eek: :lol: :)

[Macca]

I hear you, However in a large space / room that might be more of a factor, in your average small to medium room much less so.

Also big driver, big cab arrangements can overwhelm smaller rooms both sonically and aesthetically.

Balance also plays its part in hifi / systems and the way they present the music.



Aesthetically no argument. But I've heard enough big Tannoys in small rooms to know that there does not need to be a problem with a large speaker or driver in a small room.
I have some vintage Akais with a 15 inch driver, they work fine in a small room. I've heard much smaller 'WAF tower' speakers booming in decent sized rooms too. It isn't a hard and fast rule and I always wince when I see people flogging their big Tannoys because they are moving to a smaller place and they automatically think that they will be 'too big for the room.'

[RobbieGong]

Aesthetically no argument. But I've heard enough big Tannoys in small rooms to know that there does not need to be a problem with a large speaker or driver in a small room.
I have some vintage Akais with a 15 inch driver, they work fine in a small room. I've heard much smaller 'WAF tower' speakers booming in decent sized rooms too. It isn't a hard and fast rule and I always wince when I see people flogging their big Tannoys because they are moving to a smaller place and they automatically think that they will be 'too big for the room.'

:)

[Pigmy Pony]

If they won't fit through the door they're probably too big for the room.

I wonder if anyone has tried building speakers to double as wardrobes?

[Pharos]

From Martin;
"There's no substitute for a big driver in a big cab. It's the 'presence' thing. Nothing else does it, doesn't matter how many small drivers you string together, it isn't the same."

I also think that a big one does something that cannot be equalled by small ones, and have recently come to the conclusion that it may be because a small one pushes through the air, which can be pushed aside more, but with a large one it is captive, and I can't help thinking this will provide better transients due to pressure loading.

[walpurgis]

I also think that a big one does something that cannot be equalled by small ones, and have recently come to the conclusion that it may be because a small one pushes through the air, which can be pushed aside more, but with a large one it is captive, and I can't help thinking this will provide better transients due to pressure loading.

I've wondered about that. Multiples of small drivers seem to reproduce bass drum as a 'boomp', whereas a big single driver gives more of a 'whack'. Possibly something to do with the wavefront shape?

[Ninanina]

Ok so I’ll preface this post with the admission that I’m well into a bottle of fine Rioja so make of it what you will - it’s intended to provoke discussion.
I’m fortunate to have 3 HiFi systems- the main one is very expensive - the others are expensive.
For a long time I’ve pondered that on many occasions an “ inferior “ system can sound “better” - sometimes listening in the car to a track sounds better than at home.
Tonight I’ve been listening to sounds through an iPod/Wadia 170/Wadia DACamp/Ruark Epilogues that I’ve had for ages and the sound is simply stunning. While it doesn’t have the ultimate fine detail of my main system (costing many hundreds more) it nonetheless conveys all the emotion and “sonic keys” that make for an engaging experience. In many ways it’s actually more enjoyable. I think the reason is that it has better PRaT at the expense of ultimate clarity and detail.
I throw this open for discussion


Stephen I have only just got 'into' Naim gear after about 20 years of trying to 'get' the Naim sound and not 'getting' it at all for all those years

However I now realise that maybe PRaT has it's place in the hifi world. The Naim gear I now have does indeed have this in bucket loads and it's definitely to the detriment of clarity and detail. However now that I 'get' the Naim PraT thing to be honest it has been a complete eye opener to me and I love it

I just wonder why I didn't 'get it' until now

[Idlewithnodrive]

So folk need to be a little circumspect in their posts. I am both a dentist (and doctor) and a former captain in the Royal Army Medical Corps and am offended by both of these posts !!!


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How very hypocritical :) I'm a PRaT and I am equally offended by your post, as I have both clarity and detail. Jeez !

[Ninanina]

How very hypocritical :) I'm a PRaT and I am equally offended by your post, as I have both clarity and detail. Jeez !

:rfl::rfl:

[Haselsh1]

The experience of a sound system clash, in a massive community hall, adorned with cabs containing 4 x 18 inch drivers, plus 15 inches drivers and 12 inch mids etc is unbelievable in terms of scale and bass depth.

The bass literally turns and stirs your guts inside out.... :eek: :lol: :)

Just take almost any Hartke bass rig as an example reproducing a Rickenbacker. Bloody stunning.

[Haselsh1]

I have always believed that if you want to shovel a bucket load of air you are never going to win with a five inch driver. Many years back I used to play bass guitar with various local bands and realised that. However, 15 inch drivers need bloody big amps to go with them and in most cases are not compatible with the average living room. I also like that point where the amplifier just overcomes the speakers inertia and the sounds just comes alive.

[narabdela]

However, 15 inch drivers need bloody big amps to go with them...

Really? :scratch:

I've always found 15" drivers to be amazingly efficient.

[SPS]

Really? :scratch:

I've always found 15" drivers to be amazingly efficient.

Me too... I use high quality pa 18+15+12+ tweeters on a 5 watt set amp

[paulf-2007]

I ran eminence alpha 15a in open baffle, more like an open box really, the frames were braced with a clamp on the magnets and sounded clean to 300hz. I found they worked better with solid state than valves, something to do with damping I suspect. Used them in a small room too. Don't know why people think big drivers won't work in a small room.

[Ammonite Audio]

Stephen I have only just got 'into' Naim gear after about 20 years of trying to 'get' the Naim sound and not 'getting' it at all for all those years

However I now realise that maybe PRaT has it's place in the hifi world. The Naim gear I now have does indeed have this in bucket loads and it's definitely to the detriment of clarity and detail. However now that I 'get' the Naim PraT thing to be honest it has been a complete eye opener to me and I love it

I just wonder why I didn't 'get it' until now

Yup. That :thumbsup:

[Yomanze]

PRaT is the marketed term perpetuated by foot tappy Naim dealers. Pace and Rhythm are on the record, so really they are just talking about Timing. Indeed, the ability for a note or beat to start and stop at the right time as the record is the most difficult to get right in speakers vs sources and amps, so a large amount of a system’s ability to time depends on the speakers, and the amp’s capability to grip the speakers. For example, a system that times well could sound bass-light to others as there is no overhang, flab or one-note boom at the bass end.

Another big culprit is phase response. If something just doesn’t sound as if it’s all hitting you at the same time, it’s probably to do with phase distortion and resonances, which again is inherently found within speaker crossovers, but also DACs, amps etc.

[Yomanze]

Really? :scratch:

I've always found 15" drivers to be amazingly efficient.

Driving a pair of Royd RR3 5.5in drivers (83db) is indeed much more difficult than driving something like 15” Tannoys. They soak up the power and need serious grippy amps, think NAP250 and up in Naim talk.

[narabdela]

Driving a pair of Royd RR3 5.5in drivers (83db) is indeed much more difficult than driving something like 15” Tannoys. They soak up the power and need serious grippy amps, think NAP250 and up in Naim talk.

Yep. Compare that with the 99db efficiency of the 15" dual-concentric in A Tannoy Westminster. A 16db difference is a helluva lot more than it looks on paper.

[Haselsh1]

Yep. Compare that with the 99db efficiency of the 15" dual-concentric in A Tannoy Westminster. A 16db difference is a helluva lot more than it looks on paper.

Yeah the difference is very big indeed but then consider the weight of a 15" cone compared to a 5" paper cone. Then think about the inertia of that 15" cone.

[Haselsh1]

I ran eminence alpha 15a in open baffle, more like an open box really, the frames were braced with a clamp on the magnets and sounded clean to 300hz. I found they worked better with solid state than valves, something to do with damping I suspect. Used them in a small room too. Don't know why people think big drivers won't work in a small room.

Big drivers will work in any room but you just wont get really low bass because there isn't enough length to the room to reproduce those lowest frequencies.

[walpurgis]

Big drivers will work in any room but you just wont get really low bass because there isn't enough length to the room to reproduce those lowest frequencies.

That's the theory. In practice it's a bit different. You can get audible deep bass in small rooms. Depends on the room characteristics.

[Haselsh1]

http://www.pykett.org.uk/vlf_repro.htm#ListeningRoom

[walpurgis]

My 'den' is approximately 11 ft by 10 ft, with an 8 ft ceiling. Using test tones, the Tannoys will reproduce a steady and clearly audible 30Hz note in here. It's not doubling or any harmonic effect, it's the true fundamental, albeit at slightly reduced amplitude due to the speaker system's tuned roll-off. It's a heavily furnished and cluttered room.

[RothwellAudio]

Yeah the difference is very big indeed but then consider the weight of a 15" cone compared to a 5" paper cone. Then think about the inertia of that 15" cone.

The inertia of the cone is (partly) what limits its high frequency response. When working at, say, 100 Hz I don't think the 5" driver has advantage over the 15" driver. Of course, the smaller driver allows you put the crossover point higher up and avoid having it in the midrange (if you want to).

[narabdela]

Yeah the difference is very big indeed but then consider the weight of a 15" cone compared to a 5" paper cone. Then think about the inertia of that 15" cone.

It's a lot more complicated than that.

[Haselsh1]

The inertia of the cone is (partly) what limits its high frequency response. When working at, say, 100 Hz I don't think the 5" driver has advantage over the 15" driver. Of course, the smaller driver allows you put the crossover point higher up and avoid having it in the midrange (if you want to).

Inertia is an object's reluctance to be moved. To get over that inertia the amplifier has to use a good portion of its ability to drive to get that cone moving. As well as that, the amplifier has also to brake that cone to stop it rattling around. I do not wonder that an 8 Watt amplifier is so limited in its application.

Regarding low frequency reproduction in a small room. If that room is not long enough to reproduce the entire waveform in full then all you will get is a harmonic of that waveform. Have you seen the physical length of a 30 Hz waveform in feet...?

[walpurgis]

Regarding low frequency reproduction in a small room. If that room is not long enough to reproduce the entire waveform in full then all you will get is a harmonic of that waveform. Have you seen the physical length of a 30 Hz waveform in feet...?

Not necessarily so. Even headphones reproduce deep bass with less than an inch to work in.

[Haselsh1]

https://www.sfu.ca/~gotfrit/ZAP_Sept.3_99/w/wavelength.html

[Clive]

My room is 18ft long yet I get bass to below 20Hz. I can even measure it as such with m XTZ mic and analyser software. I know it's been said we need the full wavelength but I don't believe it. If so I'd only get bass to 60Hz.

[Haselsh1]

My room is 18ft long yet I get bass to below 20Hz. I can even measure it as such with m XTZ mic and analyser software. I know it's been said we need the full wavelength but I don't believe it. If so I'd only get bass to 60Hz.

Totally agree, you do not need the entire wavelength but if you do not have the entire wavelength then you do not have the correct frequency only a harmonic of it.

[SPS]

Yeah the difference is very big indeed but then consider the weight of a 15" cone compared to a 5" paper cone. Then think about the inertia of that 15" cone.

Found this review of some speakers with twin 5" cones... sounds very much like my experiences hearing these type of speakers, again my preference is high efficiency and much larger speakers, for me the texture and resolution is paramount ...

Playing Massive Attack's Mezzanine, for example, especially the standout track Inertia Creeps, which uses several instruments through the bass region, it was quite difficult to distinguish the separate parts. Furthermore, the rather limp and vague bass delivery lacks the grip and momentum needed to bring the music properly to life and provide it with sort of tension and sense of drive that's essential in conveying the menace inherent in this track.

[Clive]

Totally agree, you do not need the entire wavelength but if you do not have the entire wavelength then you do not have the correct frequency only a harmonic of it.
How then does my mic register the fundamental frequency? It measures 20Hz in my room where the wave isn't fully formed - the theory says it should only register from around 60Hz given my room dimensions.

[Yomanze]

Found this review of some speakers with twin 5" cones... sounds very much like my experiences hearing these type of speakers, again my preference is high efficiency and much larger speakers, for me the texture and resolution is paramount ...

Playing Massive Attack's Mezzanine, for example, especially the standout track Inertia Creeps, which uses several instruments through the bass region, it was quite difficult to distinguish the separate parts. Furthermore, the rather limp and vague bass delivery lacks the grip and momentum needed to bring the music properly to life and provide it with sort of tension and sense of drive that's essential in conveying the menace inherent in this track.

Massive Attack, Mezzanine is one of my favourite albums, indeed a reference album, and I get none of what this is saying. Sounds to me either like a phase issue with the speakers, poor bass reflex loading, or lack of power on the amp side. You can’t just say that bigger speakers = more scale, in every room. It’s just that smaller ones need more power and excursion for the same SPLs.

[Yomanze]

Yeah the difference is very big indeed but then consider the weight of a 15" cone compared to a 5" paper cone. Then think about the inertia of that 15" cone.

And then consider how big the magnet is on the 15” driver, and how its excursion to reproduce bass frequencies is much lower than the 5”. It is harder to get the small driver to start and stop on a pinpoint. This is probably why some people seem not to like the sound of muscle amps on Tannoys i.e. an overdamped sound.

[SPS]

Massive Attack, Mezzanine is one of my favourite albums, indeed a reference album, and I get none of what this is saying. Sounds to me either like a phase issue with the speakers, poor bass reflex loading, or lack of power on the amp side. You can’t just say that bigger speakers = more scale, in every room. It’s just that smaller ones need more power and excursion for the same SPLs.

Of course you can't say bigger speakers are better, there are good and bad in everything as you know and there are compromises with all loudspeakers. I can only talk about my experiences ... always happy to put my speakers up for comparison though..

[RothwellAudio]

Inertia is an object's reluctance to be moved. To get over that inertia the amplifier has to use a good portion of its ability to drive to get that cone moving. As well as that, the amplifier has also to brake that cone to stop it rattling around. I do not wonder that an 8 Watt amplifier is so limited in its application.

Correct, which is why you can't get the 15" cone up to a high velocity from a standing start like you would a 5" driver. However, that's the same thing as frequency response. Think about it.

[SPS]

Correct, which is why you can't get the 15" cone up to a high velocity from a standing start like you would a 5" driver. However, that's the same thing as frequency response. Think about it.

Thats acceleration factor which can be quite low in inefficient smaller bass drivers and is a calculation based on speaker BL and voice coil length, many pa and old school type speakers may come out much better.. and it's not the same as frequency response

[RothwellAudio]

Thats acceleration factor which can be quite low in inefficient smaller bass drivers and is a calculation based on speaker BL and voice coil length, many pa and old school type speakers may come out much better.. and it's not the same as frequency response
Isn't it? If the coil has too much inertia to move backwards and forwards very fast, it won't reproduce high frequencies - hence tweeters have to be small and light. Obviously you need more acceleration/deceleration to move at 20kHz than to move at 100Hz, so how is cone mass and acceleration not linked to frequency response?

[Puffin]

Interesting chart of waveform lengths.

http://www.jdbsound.com/art/frequency%20wave%20length%20chart%202013.pdf

[anthonyTD]

When comparing small cones with large ones, you also have to take into account the amount each cone has to move, to move the same amount of air!
A...

[SPS]

Isn't it? If the coil has too much inertia to move backwards and forwards very fast, it won't reproduce high frequencies - hence tweeters have to be small and light. Obviously you need more acceleration/deceleration to move at 20kHz than to move at 100Hz, so how is cone mass and acceleration not linked to frequency response?

Yes I agree it's linked I've always thought of that aspect as bandwidth.
I would not recommend any large driver for the higher frequencys though, many I use do have a very wide band width but there is only a much narrower band they are used at.
What's nice to see there are many differing views on the best types of drivers... we are all entitled to our opinions. More meet ups and bake offs should be the order of the day !

[Pharos]

Very often cones are not designed to work in pistonic motion, and these tend to have 'curvilinear' cones which allow gradual detachment of the cone towards the voice coil as frequency ascends.

In this situation, where the cone is behaving like a suspension for the moving central part, the effective mass is not the whole cone but a portion of it. This is how mid/woofers work.

[walpurgis]

Altec had a novel driver design called the Biflex. The cone had two suspensions. The usual outer at the cone edge and a second, separating the outer portion of the cone from the inner. This second suspension decoupling the inner and outer cone at a chosen frequency, acting like a mechanical crossover. One or two other makers copied this.

This is the 408 driver.

http://i68.tinypic.com/jqp380.jpg

[Macca]

clever idea.

Re driver speed and ease of drive, isn't it also going to be dependant on the material of the cone and the size of the magnet?

Light paper cone with big magnet = fast, doesn't need much power, and heavy plastic cone with small magnet = slow, needs lots of power

[Pharos]

Yes Martin, and the magnets should be applied in the reverse way IMO, big for slow polyprop, and lesser for light paper.

Bill Woodman's 20s mid/woofer has the dome decoupling from the cone outer.

[walpurgis]

Some of the small magnet speakers rely on the 'airspring' effect from sealed cabinets. And it works. KLH, Acoustic Research, Celestion, Advent and KEF used this to good effect. It did nothing for efficiency, but did provide good bass transient response.

[Haselsh1]

It is harder to get the small driver to start and stop on a pinpoint.

Not true because here momentum comes into play and a relatively heavy 15" cone is going to have much more momentum than a relatively lighter 5" cone. This is of course also dependent on the braking effect of the amplifier and loudspeaker cable. I also think this is why one of my favourite loudspeakers is the Audio Note AZ-2 because it has a light weight paper cone. This has lower inertia so can move from a standing start quickly and can be stopped rapidly because it has low momentum. Similar to five valve per cylinder engines where the total reciprocating mass is so much less than dinner plate valves. This means they can rev much higher. Smaller lighter cones yes for a much faster response but small cones cannot shift great gobs of air.

[Pharos]

I believe that there are three categories of cabinet air loading, the middle one being 'Acoustic suspension' innovated by Acoustic Research.

And also, what the heck is "scale" as described on another thread w.r.t. small boxes, this term also leaves me in a completely dumfounded state as do PRaT.

[Yomanze]

Scale: does a system reproduce the size and ‘physical presence’ of a musical instrument. For example, very very few systems can get close the accurately reproducing the scale of a pipe organ at lower frequencies.

[Clive]

Scale is important for myself. I can't abide small scale sound given that my OB setup produces very lifelike images....which are naff if small.

[Lerxst]

I also find that my mood seems to affect which system sound best to my ears on any given listening session.

I think this is spot on. If I am really tired for example I have thought a few times - what is wrong with this bloody recording? - to the point of checking connections etc.

Not sure if I understand PRaT. Is it not just speaker reaction-times and a decent amp? I couldn't care less about it anyway. Mine is good enough.

[Pharos]

From Neil;
"Scale: does a system reproduce the size and ‘physical presence’ of a musical instrument. For example, very very few systems can get close the accurately reproducing the scale of a pipe organ at lower frequencies. "

I take it that this is a generally agreed definition.

I cannot see how the size of an instrument can be captured at all given the logistics of the mic. capturing a small angle of sound, but maybe the reverb in the recording room may influence the perceived size of an instrument.

Physical presence has much more meaning for me, dynamics and impact.

When in '85 I completed the first ESS Monitor rebuild, I put on R3 which was playing an avant guard sax piece, and I was astounded by the presence of it, I'll never forget the experience of looking up the wall to the ceiling to see where the sound seemed to be emanating from.

[RothwellAudio]

I cannot see how the size of an instrument can be captured at all given the logistics of the mic. capturing a small angle of sound, but maybe the reverb in the recording room may influence the perceived size of an instrument.
The mic doesn't have to capture a small angle of sound. There are omni mics and various stereo recording techniques using two or more mics which could be omnis or figure-of-eight or boundary mics... there are ways to try to capture a sense of space and scale.
Still, most modern music is more likely to be a studio concoction with ambience created artificially. I think to some people "scale" means loud and with plenty of bass and they want large speakers to do that. Personally, I like to hear recordings which have a sense of a wide and deep soundstage which you feel you could walk into, and I think that small speakers are quite capable of achieving that. I suppose it comes down to personal preferences and priorities.

[Pharos]

Yes the angle can and is wide, but it integrates all that into one signal, which I suppose is strictly an artefact 'bodge', and this must compromise reality.

[YNWaN]

I spent many years dealing with the primary protagonists of the PRaT, those being Linn and Naim. In more recent years Linn seem to have reinvented the concept as the 'Tune Dem'. If we look at those systems that were recognised as supporting PRaT such as classic 80's systems like an LP12 with Naim amplification and Linn speakers (Kan's, SARA's or Isobarik's) I think it is clear where the strengths and weaknesses of the whole concept lie. So, the idea of PRaT (in the context of this discussion) is the emphasis on rhythm and pace over such elements as tonal accuracy, detail and stereo effect. However, whilst centring on core musical aspects like Pace, Rhythm and Timing seems like an admirable idea, it's reasonably easy to artificially enhance these aspects if a relatively limited pallet of music is used; if the system is band limited (both the very top and bottom are rolled off gently) and the mid bass is enhanced (where bass guitar is placed) for example. The LP12 of the 80's was quite a warm sounding beast and the Linn speakers had very uneven frequency responses.

[Pharos]

That is a helpful statement of the situation, but.

Pace; a rate of percussive musical events maybe? Surely these time as well on any system with perhaps the exception of slow bass on some speakers.

Rhythm; more vague to me, but timing related, and similar to pace surely.

Timing; well lets measure the speaker's O/P in terms of time of each beat or timpanic event, do they really differ in time of occurrence?

It is the conceptual difficulty I have in grasping what is meant by these which causes me to think it all related to the 80s 'voo-doo' of Linn and Naim.

[Jazid]

That is a helpful statement of the situation, but.

Pace; a rate of percussive musical events maybe? Surely these time as well on any system with perhaps the exception of slow bass on some speakers.

Rhythm; more vague to me, but timing related, and similar to pace surely.

Timing; well lets measure the speaker's O/P in terms of time of each beat or timpanic event, do they really differ in time of occurrence?

It is the conceptual difficulty I have in grasping what is meant by these which causes me to think it all related to the 80s 'voo-doo' of Linn and Naim.It might help your conceptual struggle to disregard all but the acronym. These characteristics of reproduction (not music) are each symptoms of the same thing: a shelved off bass enhancing the 'thwack' rather than the thump of a drum along with loss of bass fundamental frequencies, coupled to a modest mid bass hump and a bright response. Many love this sound and good luck to them. Personally I'd rather eat toenails than listen to music squeezed out of such a system.

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

[Pharos]

OK then, and thank you Mark and James, you concurred views lead me to believe that it is actually a distortion of the frequency spectrum, and so away from fidelity.

There is no doubt from my own experience that doing this can give very different experiences which are , or can be perceived as being musical in nature. My early ESS attempts were 'smiley' in FR, and this gave very odd, though enjoyable subjective results. I then steered towards accuracy.