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gazcarts
17-02-2010, 22:34
Hi all,

Back again for some advice.

I know that the Jelco arms are recommended on the Technics, but I can't quite stretch to a 750D yet, so I'm considering the 250ST instead. Now I also understand the Mission 774LC is basically a Jelco 250ST arm, and the Missions are considerably cheaper.

Will fitting a Mission 774LC give me the same benefits as the Jelco 250ST? I also take it I need a Linn armboard to fit it to the Technics?

I'm interested to see how the arm would compare to my current RB251 with Tecnoweight.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.
Regards
Gary

chris@panteg
17-02-2010, 22:49
Hi Gary ' i think Dave Cawley can help you here ' i am informed the 250st has a better synergy with the 1200 than a Rega .

I am about to change the Arm in mine ' so your question comes at an interesting time , Martin has the 250 and rates it highly ' he has a pretty revealing set up ' nuff said.

The Vinyl Adventure
17-02-2010, 23:05
did you have a chat with dave in the end gary?

gazcarts
17-02-2010, 23:24
did you have a chat with dave in the end gary?

Hi Hamish,

The Roksan Tabriz arms seem to go for over 200, so I started looking at other alternatives. As Dave recommends the Jelco 250ST, I'm hoping the 774LC will be as good, but cheaper.

Regards
Gary

Dave Cawley
17-02-2010, 23:25
As Dave recommends the Jelco 250ST, I'm hoping the 774LC will be as good, but cheaper.

Why?

Dave

DSJR
17-02-2010, 23:32
I personally think that the Rega arms need some sort of slight decoupling from metalic arm-plates, especially the RB300 series, which have far tighter tolerances on their stainless-steel pillar and bearings than the loc-tite'd brass fixings on the 250 as I recall. The Rega arms work well on NAS decks I think, because of the collet fixing which allows arm-height adjustment. Just my opinion, but the RB300 doesn't have to sound boring and tuneless.....

The 774LC was recommended by Martin Colloms' HiFi Choice group tests back in the day, but I can't find the review tonight. You may like to buy one and have Johnie at Audio Origami look it over and maybe re-wire it or at least supply an exit lead which may fit the standard Linn style connections...

gazcarts
17-02-2010, 23:38
As Dave recommends the Jelco 250ST, I'm hoping the 774LC will be as good, but cheaper.

Why?

Dave

Hi Dave,

I've read the 774LC was made by Jelco and is basically a 250ST. However, there may be differences that I'm not aware of, hence why I thought I'd post the question here.

DSJR

The arm I've seen has had a Cardas rewire internally and comes with a external cable. I believe it's a standard 5 pin arrangement.

Regards
Gary

gazcarts
17-02-2010, 23:41
I personally think that the Rega arms need some sort of slight decoupling from metalic arm-plates, especially the RB300 series, which have far tighter tolerances on their stainless-steel pillar and bearings than the loc-tite'd brass fixings on the 250 as I recall. The Rega arms work well on NAS decks I think, because of the collet fixing which allows arm-height adjustment. Just my opinion, but the RB300 doesn't have to sound boring and tuneless.....


I have the RB251 which has the 3 point mount, so no nuts involved :)

Regards
Gary

Dave Cawley
17-02-2010, 23:41
Until Steve stops meddling, removing posts, thinking about it, putting them back............I'm out of here............

Dave

Rare Bird
17-02-2010, 23:42
Jelco made arms for quite a few manufacturers.

:rolleyes:

gazcarts
17-02-2010, 23:44
Until Steve stops meddling, removing posts, thinking about it, putting them back............I'm out of here............

Dave

Sorry to hear about that Dave, as your input and experience are very welcome. Maybe you could PM me with your thoughts if it's not too much trouble?

Thanks
Gary

Dave Cawley
17-02-2010, 23:46
If this gets through, I will.

Regards

Dave

DSJR
17-02-2010, 23:52
I have the RB251 which has the 3 point mount, so no nuts involved :)

Regards
Gary

Is the mounting plasic or metal? If plastic I'd suggest trying it not too tightly screwed up and see if it's worse or better than very tight.

gazcarts
18-02-2010, 00:00
Is the mounting plasic or metal? If plastic I'd suggest trying it not too tightly screwed up and see if it's worse or better than very tight.

Hi Dave,

It's plastic and it's not screwed on too tight. I'm reasonably happy with the RB251, but I'm curious what sort of improvemnt the 774LC might bring.

Regards
Gary

DSJR
18-02-2010, 00:02
Lighter, more agile perhaps?

You're going to have to try it and tell us I'm afraid... As long as Johnie's been at it as you say he has, then it'll be ok.

gazcarts
18-02-2010, 00:12
Lighter, more agile perhaps?

You're going to have to try it and tell us I'm afraid... As long as Johnie's been at it as you say he has, then it'll be ok.

Sorry, I've no idea if he has, I just know it's internally wired with Cardas OFC.
I'll let you know how it goes :)

Regards
Gary

Dave Cawley
18-02-2010, 08:42
The 774LC is now very old. You need to have the bearings checked and that the re-wire is in fact new and not 10 years old. Then you have to ask is that version with the damped armtube, or not?

Way too many variables for me.

Regards

Dave

hifi_dave
18-02-2010, 10:18
The 774LC in it's day was nothing special, approximates to an LVX etc. Not really suitable for energetic MC's. An old one might have all sorts wrong with it now.

gazcarts
18-02-2010, 10:20
The 774LC is now very old. You need to have the bearings checked and that the re-wire is in fact new and not 10 years old. Then you have to ask is that version with the damped armtube, or not?

Way too many variables for me.

Regards

Dave

Ok, thanks Dave. I'll let you know how it goes.

Regards
Gary

DSJR
18-02-2010, 13:47
The 774LC in it's day was nothing special, approximates to an LVX etc. Not really suitable for energetic MC's. An old one might have all sorts wrong with it now.

I suppose it can be said that buying an old 774LC and getting it sorted will cost the same as buying a brand new Jelco arm with up to date wiring and all the latest mods built in.....


A Basik Plus would be 250 now - and I thought the RB301 was too expensive at 200 approx.....

gazcarts
22-02-2010, 17:55
Hi all,

I've fitted the 774LC today so thought I'd report back on my findings.

Firstly, the 774LC differs from the Jelco 250ST in the way it is attached to the armboard. The Jelco appears to have holes drilled completely through the base whereas the 774LC has holes in the bottom of its base. In other words, the Mission arm is fixed to the armboard by 3 bolts which are screwed in from below. This presented me with the first problem, because the bolts are about a 3/4 inch long and the armboard is only a few millimetres thick. This means the bolts are fully screwed into the base of the tonearm long before they meet the underside of the armboard.

I was expecting to have to pop to the hardware shop to get some thick rubber washers to fill the space, but oddly the tonearm doesn't move at all with all three bolts attached. I've a feeling this is down to the fact that one of the bolts doesn't screw in perfectly straight (the screw thread in the hole is cross-threaded) and this holds everything in place.

On the arm itself; the VTA is very easy to adjust by simply loosening a grub screw. The VTF seems incredibly accurate using the weight at the rear of the arm. The anti-skating dial isn't so accurate and is currently dialled upto almost 3 to pass band 7 on the HiFi news test LP.

Onto the sound; I definitely notice an improvement, although obviously I'm unable to do a side by side comparison with the OL RB251 arm as it's now in a box! There seems to be a wider and deeper soundstage, and the detail and bass seem better. As I say, very hard to assess without a side-to-side comparison.

Overall, I'm very happy with the result, especially given the relatively small outlay (130 for 774LC and a new armboard).
Best wishes and thanks for the advice thus far.
Gary

DSJR
22-02-2010, 18:09
IIRC, the Mission uses the standard Linn style fixing...

Glad you like it :)

hifi_dave
22-02-2010, 20:04
He's talking about the 'LC', the Japanese model, similar to the LVX, not the rusty, gas pipe jobbie with the leaking silicone fluid and droopy counterweight...:scratch:

gazcarts
22-02-2010, 21:03
He's talking about the 'LC', the Japanese model, similar to the LVX, not the rusty, gas pipe jobbie with the leaking silicone fluid and droopy counterweight...:scratch:

The LC uses Linn geometry, not sure about fixings. Wasn't the original 774 an SME type mount?

Regards
Gary

hifi_dave
22-02-2010, 21:11
Yes it was. SME with the rear of the slot squared off IIRC. That's the one DSJR is talking about.

gazcarts
23-02-2010, 15:25
Hi all,

Another quick update.

I wasn't too happy about the problem with the mounting bolts on the 774LC so I popped to the local DIY shop and bought some rubber washers. I've placed 2 on each bolt below the armboard and I've also put one on each bolt above the armboard but below the tonearm base to give some insulation from the metal of the armboard. Oddly, the washers have solved the cross-thread problem I had with one of the bolts and they all screw in with little effort now.

The sound is fantastic, the bass is so firm and deep and there is oodles of detail. I'm sure it has also been helped by the fact that today I fitted Townshend Isolda DCT 300 interconnects between the phono amp and my Tag DPA32R. I had Van Den Hul D102 cables before and the Isoldas are so much better (I already have a pair between the DPA32R and my monoblocs).

One fly in the ointment is that the Isoldas are so revealing I can now hear the hum of the Technics power supply in quiet parts of the record at very high volumes. A Timestep PSU may be on the shopping list at some point in the future. We'll see :)

Best wishes
Gary

The Vinyl Adventure
23-02-2010, 15:43
:worthless:;)

gazcarts
23-02-2010, 16:15
:worthless:;)

You're so demanding ;)

I'm not taking the bottom off the Techie again so you'll have to use your imagination :)

Here's some pics of the top with the arm in place.

1393

1394

1395

The biggest I can attach I'm afraid. Just noticed the washers aren't all the same way up. Oh dear, what if it affects the balance of the sound??? ;)

Best wishes
Gary

Rare Bird
23-02-2010, 16:17
Yes it was. SME with the rear of the slot squared off IIRC. That's the one DSJR is talking about.The John Bicht designed version, casting & finish was shit but it sounded good lo mass arm,there was two different shaped arm mountings for this arm but both the same near SME fixing pattern... The later ones seem to have got there act together a bit.Only thing with this arm it shares a cartridge tag ground with the arm. The interchangable wands want rewiring properly, it is a bit tricky with the red block connectors tho.

The 774'SM' was the GB Tools built version, the 'LC' was the Jelco style version..You saw all these models on variants of the Mission '775' turntable, ie: '775SM' deck had the '774SM' arm etc etc. The 'LC' was often used as an upgrade for the shit arm originally fitted to the Acoustic Research 'Legend' turntable.

Mechanic also a GB tools made arm was a different kettle of fish..

Rare Bird
23-02-2010, 16:21
You're so demanding ;)

I'm not taking the bottom off the Techie again so you'll have to use your imagination :)

Here's some pics of the top with the arm in place.

1393

1394

1395

The biggest I can attach I'm afraid. Just noticed the washers aren't all the same way up. Oh dear, what if it affects the balance of the sound??? ;)

Best wishes
Gary

Alphason HR100S would look good on that deck as you have a Linn mount board..I feel your wasting that cartridge with the '774LC'

DSJR
23-02-2010, 16:28
To one and all -

I DO know my 774's thank you. the LC had the Linn mount and the 774 original (of which I owned one of the first two dozen ever made and had to select one with decent bearings) had an SME style mount..

Hope that clears things up..

I thank you

Rare Bird
23-02-2010, 16:41
Keep yer hair on Dave :lol: I've had at least 4 of these original '774's trying to find an acceptable one.

DSJR
23-02-2010, 16:47
haven't got much hair left sadly...:(

We had twelve of the first ones (the remainder went to the short lived Knightsbridge Audio IIRC). Of these twelve, three were unusable with loads of slop in the bearings, three were first class with no slop and good low friction and the others were slightly tight to a degree but not badly so..

I used my 774 until the ittok came along and somewhat recklessly, I bought my first one blind, taking it on trust. To be honest, I wasn't disappointed.

Later, the 774 acquired a very stiff exit cable and this started to make use with an LP12, let alone a Thorens, very difficult indeed....

Rare Bird
24-02-2010, 13:28
I used my 774 until the ittok came along and somewhat recklessly, I bought my first one blind, taking it on trust. To be honest, I wasn't disappointed.

Later, the 774 acquired a very stiff exit cable and this started to make use with an LP12, let alone a Thorens, very difficult indeed....

You mean the stiff Grey cable? Yes was well too stiff & too bulky best thing for these arms is a total rewire of the armtube wand & exit cable from that shitty tiny PCB under the base (That fucks fitting the arm in a standard SME mount without cutting it hole out a bit) Grrrrrrrrrrrr :steam: the alloy casting on these arms was shit..

DSJR
24-02-2010, 18:27
I wouldn't disagree with you :lol:

Rare Bird
24-02-2010, 21:43
Eh

:D