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Any Harbeth users here?
This might be the way forward for me in a flat where I cannot go too loud even if I have big lounge.
P3ESR?
Could see me out. I'm 60!
I have a Quad 77 Integrated Amp doing nothing useful - that would get me started, and have a few years in it.
My son is leaving the flat soon and taking his 5.1 AV monster with him!
My Quad 405-2 and floorstanders are on route to Nicosia wher I can make a very big noise in a large detached bungalow.
Seriously Brian, they're truly wonderful in a non "HiFi" kind of way.
I have no contact with the firm now, although I knew Alan Shaw quite well twenty or so years ago, and it's only the fact that HiFi Dave spoke so highly of them that I took an interest - oh, and the fact that I use some of their larger spiritual ancestors by Spendor...
I don't like small boxes personally, as most of them have what I call "stunt bass." The LS3/5A certainly does and I found earlier versions of the P3 could flop and plop if bassy music was fed them at very modest levels..
The thing is, the P3ESR's just don't do this. the sound is full with a very articulate bass quality. The mid is sublime, clear and detailed as all the "RADIAL" coned Harbeths are and the treble is to die for, cymbals having a lovely ring to them with no grit, harshness or dullness. They really do disappear very easily and they'll have a good stab at Massive Attack too :eek: and to reasonable levels as well. That radial cone gives detail in a PASSIVE speaker that you'd need to go active with other speakers (ADM 9.1's for instance)
Brian, the P3ESR with a sweet toned Quad 77 should charm you and give a huge smile on your face and hopefully not be sickly with it. The Harbeth factory is just up the road from you and you could ask if they have a dem room where you could listen. Failing that, take a day out, trawl round the M25 and up the M11 and give HiFi Dave a visit. He makes great tea :eyebrows: and will happily connect your amp up to them as well as demming the awsome Croft amps if you like (hint-hint)... Try not to hear the valved Rega Isis CD player - apparently you'll be hooked.........
As I now find so many smaller passive speakers a bit harsh at the crossover point, the only other well made contender I can think of "new" and easy for you to hear are the Spendor SA1 (current version), which may be good and not just a pretty box... It would seem that Sonus Faber are now stratospherically priced and the Concertino/Concerto models long gone now sadly.
Harbeths are designed to reproduce speech correctly and I find they've always been able to do this well. the fact that this baby has the power handling and volume ability to rock and roll as well (within reason) is a huge bonus in my book. Love 'em to bits!!!!!!!:)
I was hoping you would respond, Dave. I had noted the closest approach for me was the factory. Glad they welcome customers.
I could accommodate bigger that the P3ESR - what do you think.
My though is that a Harbeth would last a very long time and the ADMs would die in a few years - and I have the Quad 77. They sell for next to nowt, while 405s go up all the time!
I still have the Quad 77 CDP and Tuner surplus to requirements which will raise a few pounds. If I get ADM I still need my Beresford DAC or something to drive my headphones, which are an absolute must in this flat.
(For all of Ashe's huff and puff about floor standers, three ways, passives and metal dome tweeters I have listened to many a speaker and my big Quarts (cost as much as Quad Electrostatics at the time) are still very very good -they image exceptionally well and fill a big room. They were good with the 77 and are even better with the upgraded 405. Phew - got that off my chest!)
Sevenoaks HiFi is a mile from here so I might audition some Spendors too. Will they last as long?
I'm sure they will, but polypropylene cones do self-absorb a bit too much - good at the time but not as concise as the harbeth radial cones.. I don't know if harbeth do dems there - they may not, but as they deliberately don't want loads of UK dealers (and offer tiny margins to put would-be fast buck merchants off), I'd suggest a day out in Essex :)
AVI gear lasts decades, but I understand your concern - more than I can say... Since you have a great old amp not old enough to be well thought of (it is SO much better than a 34/306 IMO), the P3 ESR really is worth going for IMO...
hifi_dave
17-02-2010, 21:14
DSJR has said it all really, not much for me to add except that the P3ESR (and the other Harbeths) work really well at a whisper if you need. Most speakers lose practically everything at low volumes but the Harbeths hold it all together at very low levels and this is very useful for many people. Of course, if you want to thrash them, they will do that too.
Before I took on Harbeth I was a Spendor dealer and did try their 'legacy' models but they were just too boring and sloooooow for my tastes.
Not quite there yet, Dave. Off to Cyprus end of March and back for the high summer by which time my son's 40" plasma and AV junk should have gone. In the master bedroom I have our own 37" LCD TV hooked up to a Beresford 7510 driving the Quad 77 and pair of Goodmans Maxims. That will move to the lounge and I have to decide on speakers then - in the summer.
I love solo piano music and string quartets - sounds as if the Harbeth solution might be good. I can hear Spendor a mile down the road.
I have a KEF subwoofer that I can drive from the pre-out of the Quad 77. I am not convinced the extra bass it adds to the Maxims is worth it. At least I can stand the telly on the silent subwoofer till I find the right furniture!
Listening to Squeezebox Internet radio on my Sony F1s at the moment, very clear but no substitute for a clear sound stage in the room.
I love solo piano music and string quartets
Brian, you will love this brand,they sound good with most equipment and are relatively unfussy about placement, and are tonally pure,:) l use my Compact 7s in an untreated 11f x 12f room and they sound great, PM if you fancy a listen:)
I very much doubt you'll need a sub either, unless you roll it out above 50Hz and set the level well down..
Unlike others, Harbeth have continued to carefully develop the BBC legacy they inherited from Dudley himself. The basic ideas were always sound and the continued popularity of oldies by Spendor and Rogers reflects this I think.
As HiFi Dave has said, you can play all of them at low levels without appearing to lose anything, they're far less coloured in the midrange than current prestige series Tannoys and they're designed to be a doddle of a load to your amp, meaning that fancy amps of any persuasion aren't necessary...
I'm also thinking that the small Harbeths might be just the thing for me, to replace some ancient Mordaunt-Shorts. However, I'm miles from a Harbeth dealer, and have learnt from bitter experience that buying speakers 'blind' is a mug's game. So I'm not sure how or indeed if to go forward.
Looking at the Harbeth site it seems that their speakers may be made to order with quite a long delivery time.
What's the latest?
Dave?
hifi_dave
19-02-2010, 13:26
The M40.1 are around two months delivery but the others are 2-3 weeks and I've sometimes got the P3ESR in stock.
Nice to know, Dave. Thanks.
Problem is you are in the wrong part of the country for me.The M25 has no appeal at all - done that far too often! Leeds or even Repton would probably be easiest for me to get to as I travel to York from time to time to see my mother.
The eastern side of the m25 used to be a lot better than the Heathrow side - ok, there's a toll - but it's not too much of a pain IMO, although you may find driving in the southern UK these days a bit daunting, as I now do (the Orwell Bridge is a sort of barrier on the A14 for me). You can either go up the A12 and turn northwards or carry on round the M25 to the M11. In any case, Saffron Walden's a lovely old town, apparently full of BBC producers........ ;)
It would seem that Sonus Faber are now stratospherically priced and the Concertino/Concerto models long gone now sadly.
You should listen to the new Liuto (monitors) and Toy Tower...
Or, perhaps you did, already ?
I will have to listen to the P3ESR one of these days. ;)
If HiFi dave ever gets some I'll look forward to it :)
You know, I don't like to visit audio dealers as a browser, as I really don't want to waste their time. When I was selling, I never minded if told beforehand they were "just looking," as I specialised in planting seeds which often came to fruition some months later...
You know, when there are no customers, sellers get bored, so... it's enough to find the right hour. ;)
Fortunately, I haven't worked for too long in a dealer who hardly sees customers through his door, although this is rife today and some dealers are now doing it as a sideline to bolster up alternative income.......
I've heard so many stories from friends about the busy Richer Sounds store and the "audio salon" nearby being empty yet full of "attitude..."
You should listen to the new Liuto (monitors) and Toy Tower...
No. Must do some more exploring.
How about making me a short list, Themis? And anyone else, for that matter.
Need some small (narrow) floorstanders or shoeboxes on stalks. Must be neutral and resolving. As much bass as practical. Large lounge 7m x 4.5m in a flat so I can't blast out the neighbours and the speakers must hold it together at low volumes.
ADM 9.1 might serve, but I have a competent DAC and a Quad 77 doing nothing useful - money might as well go into speaker.
Are the advantages of actives in this bracket overplayed. Not many companies have taken that route. A well designed passive crossover must come somewhere near.
I observe that a pair of Harbeths will be good in 25 years, but an active speaker will be dead in ten or less.
You can't have as much bass as practical from a small box as something has to give. In ADM9.2's it's absolute extension, although I'm told the *quality* of the bass that's there (down to 60Hz or so) is excellent and NOT BOOMY!!!!!!
The little P3 ESR's have phenominal apparent bass extension for such a small speaker, but maximum volume suffers as a result, although not as much as you'd think, as modern drivers with proper computer-aided design/optimisation of the magnetic fields etc ensures a louder and less distorted drive unit.. The P3 ESR's have heavy and very well damped boxes and look the price asked IMO...
For under a grand, some of Spendors designs still set standards. I once compared some SP1 mk1's to some exalted Wisons, Pro-Acs and KEF reference 2's and they still more than stood their ground. The current very expensive SP1/2R's are similar but I suspect just a tad clearer as internal wires and possibly caps have been changed (you can't always take an old BBC type speaker and replace everything in the crossover with designer goodies as the balance is ruined unless you can re-voice the speaker). I love the S6 and S8 series with light-n-bright speaker cables and the early versions of these are now going for less than a grand.
Sorry, B&W and KEF speakers less than a grand don't interest me. often made cheap in the far east and sold with loads of dealer profit, I don't think they're refined enough...
You MAY find some good and properly restored Tannoys for under a grand. The early 70's models with Monitor Gold drivers will be fine with the Quad 77 and you could have a go on the cabinets to damp and stiffen them a bit more - the current Prestige lower models have incredibly basic cabinets with apparently little damping inside...
Seriously Brian, they're truly wonderful in a non "HiFi" kind of way.
I have no contact with the firm now, although I knew Alan Shaw quite well twenty or so years ago, and it's only the fact that HiFi Dave spoke so highly of them that I took an interest - oh, and the fact that I use some of their larger spiritual ancestors by Spendor...
I don't like small boxes personally, as most of them have what I call "stunt bass." The LS3/5A certainly does and I found earlier versions of the P3 could flop and plop if bassy music was fed them at very modest levels..
The thing is, the P3ESR's just don't do this. the sound is full with a very articulate bass quality. The mid is sublime, clear and detailed as all the "RADIAL" coned Harbeths are and the treble is to die for, cymbals having a lovely ring to them with no grit, harshness or dullness. They really do disappear very easily and they'll have a good stab at Massive Attack too :eek: and to reasonable levels as well. That radial cone gives detail in a PASSIVE speaker that you'd need to go active with other speakers (ADM 9.1's for instance)
Brian, the P3ESR with a sweet toned Quad 77 should charm you and give a huge smile on your face and hopefully not be sickly with it. The Harbeth factory is just up the road from you and you could ask if they have a dem room where you could listen. Failing that, take a day out, trawl round the M25 and up the M11 and give HiFi Dave a visit. He makes great tea :eyebrows: and will happily connect your amp up to them as well as demming the awsome Croft amps if you like (hint-hint)... Try not to hear the valved Rega Isis CD player - apparently you'll be hooked.........
As I now find so many smaller passive speakers a bit harsh at the crossover point, the only other well made contender I can think of "new" and easy for you to hear are the Spendor SA1 (current version), which may be good and not just a pretty box... It would seem that Sonus Faber are now stratospherically priced and the Concertino/Concerto models long gone now sadly.
Harbeths are designed to reproduce speech correctly and I find they've always been able to do this well. the fact that this baby has the power handling and volume ability to rock and roll as well (within reason) is a huge bonus in my book. Love 'em to bits!!!!!!!:)
There's a wierd thing. I was just about to post a question about how the small Harbeths were rated...you've gone an answered the question before I've asked it. Thankyou !
I've got 10 months to go before I change my system and had come to the conclusion that as I'm sort of restricted to speakers of this size, the P3 ESR's are at the top of my audition list.
I'm having to force myself to be patient, but at least can spend this summer making my mind up on what to start looking at.
From what you and Hifi Dave have said has given me the confidence that I'm on the right track. Cheers :cool:
No bells and whistles, just a sweet toned and beautifully mannered little box that shows the commitment that's gone into it...
No bells and whistles, just a sweet toned and beautifully mannered little box that shows the commitment that's gone into it...
The P3ESR? It's where my instincts lead me after research but no listening.
I will now have to take my ears for a ride or two.
Harbeth site:
http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/index.php
The forum is worth a look.
http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/
If you have to drive long distances, take half an hour or so for your ears to recover. Even in a modern refined car, the constant drone plays havoc with your ears. At least Radlett (HiFi) Dave - now just outside Saffron Walden {:)} is in a country setting so you'll relax very quickly I think, especially if you can bribe him for a cuppa :D
hifi_dave
19-02-2010, 19:41
No bribe necessary - I even do coffee.
From the Harbeth Website, its difficult to gauge what each model they do actually looks like in situ. The Monitor 20 looks like it is the same dimensions as the P3. Much difference in sound?
Are there benefits to be gained by going 'up' to the 7ES ?
Are there benefits to be gained by going 'up' to the 7ES ?
What does this tell you?
http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?675-Compact-7-ES-2-vs-P3-ESR-%28various-questions%29
ahhh.. interesting.
Well, I like your expression Brian - think I'll have to take my ears for a ride !!
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