View Full Version : More Heybrook TT2 questions - sweating the small stuff
Further to my Heybrook cartridge thread, I have some questions about getting the little (but important) things right....
+ What cartridge alignment tool should be used for the Rega RB300? Vinyl Engine has posted both a Rega template and a Heybrook protractor. Which is the correct one for the TT2?
+ What platter mat works best? It presently has the felt one. Is a cork or leather one an improvement?
+ Should I use a record weight? I have read that these may cause premature bearing wear on some tables. Is this true on the TT2? If not a weight, is there a clamp which tightens onto the spindle which you would recommend?
+ What bearing oil should I use? LP12 and Thorens owners seem to be using a light grade of full synthetic motor oil or spindle oil for air tools (Mobil brand, if I recall correctly).
+ Should I use different feet from the stock hard rubber ones? Vibrapods perhaps? Metal or wood spikes? Some type of levelling feet would be beneficial, at very least.
+ What support works best? I plan to place the deck inside a large wooden armoire which holds the rest of the system, and it will be sitting on a rigid shelf of 3/8" veneered particle board. Will I need additional isolation, such as a maple butcher block, marble/acrylic sheet, sandbox, or other type?
That's all I can think of for now. If anyone has other suggestions on getting the most from the TT2, I would be grateful to hear them.
I should be able to pick up the deck this weekend once I'm back home from my travels. Hopefully the shop will have a suitable cartridge on hand so I can start playing tunes straight away. Can't wait to hear it!
Thanks, and regards,
Svend
Ok, but remember this is just my personal take. YM, as ever, MV.
1) All alignment protractors are a compromise, and depend on whose theories the designer follows. The Heybrook one was drawn up by PJC, and I don’t remember whose particular doctrine he was following but I’d be very surprised if there was a significant difference between the two. There’s reams of info on the net about different tracking curves and so on. You could keep yourself amused for hours, but in the end, it’s whatever sounds best when you’ve done it.
2) The original felt mat was bought in from Linn and is the same one that was supplied with contemporary LP12s. It’s not a bad compromise and I’m still happily using mine but it’s very much personal taste. People have had good results with hard rubber, acrylic and cork, and I seem to remember someone having one turned up from gunmetal which must have looked amazing.
3) I’ve never felt the need to use a weight but some people swear by them. I don’t think the bearing would be bothered much, it’s very lightly stressed. If you did end up with a dimple in the end of the spindle any competent machine shop could grind it flat and re-harden it for you. All the machining for the TT2 was done by a little two-man engineering shop near us with nothing unusual in the way of equipment.
4) Any decent quality light machine oil will do. Car engine and gearbox oils generally have a lot of additives in them to allow them to survive their intended environments. These do not improve their performance as turntable spindle lubricants.
4) Support is a tricky one, and a lot depends on your floor. The ideal is a rigid lightweight table or stand on a solid floor. If you don’t want it to wobble like a jelly and you have a suspended wooden floor, then a rigid shelf fixed to a good solid wall is best. I wouldn’t recommend standing it on or in a large piece of furniture as it will pick up all the vibrations of the panels that the armoir is made of. If you want to do that, then a substantial bit of something heavy will be needed. What I have seen done is a wall-mounted shelf through a hole in the back of the piece of furniture, but you may not want to take a saw to the back of the Chippendale.
Thank you Shane! Very helpful.
Re. the protractor -- I will try the Heybrook one first and see how it looks compared to the Rega one. Easily done - just plop the other one on the platter after the first alignment and have a look-see. There's only so much patience I have for fiddling with this kind of thing, so if it sounds good I'll be happy.
Re. mats -- I have a cork mat sitting on my Technics deck, so I can try it on the TT2 I suppose. But it will be thicker than the felt one, so if the stylus is sensitive to VTA changes then it may sound worse and will be a pain to adjust the non-adjustable Rega arm with spacers. Nothing is simple, eh? :scratch:
Re. weights -- good to know! I made up a very Canadian record weight for the Technics, just to try it, which consisted of two 10 oz. ice hockey practice pucks glued together, with a hole for the spindle drilled into the bottom. Works great! Indoor use only... :) I can try it on the TT2 to see how it works. If you think 20 oz. is too much, I can split them again and just use one 10 oz. puck.
Re. support/isolation -- oh boy, that's a delicate matter because of the W.A.F. (wife acceptance factor). For the time being it will have to be a heavy platform on the shelf, like a thick maple cutting board. This is in our living room, and my wife works in the interior design trade...so you see my problem, eh?...she will instantly torpedo any suggestion of a wall shelf -- components must be heard but not seen! That said, of late she's been squinting with critical eye at the old armoire and making discontented remarks about it's lack of style and panache. I can see an chink in the armour (not the armoire), so a suggestion for a new cabinet may be well received. :D
Best,
Svend
Rothchild
26-10-2017, 13:49
Didn't you just get the bounce set right on this? Won't adding a load more weight to the platter affect that setting?
It will, but adjusting the TT2 suspension to compensate is an absolute doddle. Unlike some....
Didn't you just get the bounce set right on this? Won't adding a load more weight to the platter affect that setting?
Marc, Shane -- to be honest, I didn't really think that 6 or 7 grams would make any difference at all, considering the total mass hanging off the springs. The cartridge weight seems insignificant by comparison. But I guess I'm mistaken. These suspended decks are a new thing for me, and there is still a lot to learn. So readjust after installing the cartridge then - got it!
Thanks for the head's up on that.
...adjusting the TT2 suspension to compensate is an absolute doddle. Unlike some....
It sure seems to be - everything done from the top with a little allen key. Nice! Gee, I wonder who thought of that neat idea? :D
Svend
A few grammes of cartridge won’t make any difference, but 20oz of good old Canadian hockey puck most certainly will! Just needs a few turns of the suspension bolts to pull the chassis back up to the correct level.
One of the things the really annoyed me in my retail days was the way so many suspended turntables went off-song, and all the foo black magic nonsense that grew up around “tuning” them. Tuning? It’s not a Stradivarius, guys, it’s three springs. If you can’t think of a way to stop them going out of adjustment then it’s a pretty poor show. On the other hand, anyone hoping to make a living by keeping TT2s “in tune” is in for a disappointment.
A few grammes of cartridge won’t make any difference, but 20oz of good old Canadian hockey puck most certainly will! Just needs a few turns of the suspension bolts to pull the chassis back up to the correct level.
One of the things the really annoyed me in my retail days was the way so many suspended turntables went off-song, and all the foo black magic nonsense that grew up around “tuning” them. Tuning? It’s not a Stradivarius, guys, it’s three springs. If you can’t think of a way to stop them going out of adjustment then it’s a pretty poor show. On the other hand, anyone hoping to make a living by keeping TT2s “in tune” is in for a disappointment.
:doh: Yes, of course! Didn't even occur to me! I'm cracking up here... :D Too funny. The shop can go ahead with the suspension tuning....er, adjustment that is, sans puck until I decide what weight or clamp I'm going to use. But it would be good for a laugh if I walked through the door carrying a couple of orange hockey pucks, saying "Tune the suspension now boys!".
In any case, the pucks were just an experiment to see if I liked it, and yes, it worked on the Technics. There must be better options out there. A lighter clamp sounds like a good idea (in theory).
Great to hear that the TT2 suspension is NOT a Stradivarius. All the hand wringing going on out there about "tuning" these suspended decks really made me think twice about buying one. I'm sure glad I ended up with the Heybrook....anything else that was overly fussy would not have lasted long here.
Cheers to that! :cool:
Svend
Rothchild
27-10-2017, 17:41
LOL that'll teach you to open up 2 threads! ;-)
Adjusting this stuff is very straightforward, it was the fact that you said you'd taken it to the shop to get it done that set me thinking that you'd paid to have that done and you were about to then heft a load on it, bottom out the springs and wonder why it didn't work right!
LOL that'll teach you to open up 2 threads! ;-)
Adjusting this stuff is very straightforward, it was the fact that you said you'd taken it to the shop to get it done that set me thinking that you'd paid to have that done and you were about to then heft a load on it, bottom out the springs and wonder why it didn't work right!
:) Tsk, tsk...mustn't clutter up the landscape here with all my threads :). Lesson learned!
Good catch on your part though. As mentioned, I'm new to these suspended decks, but I'm usually not that thick that I couldn't put two and two together here :scratch: Still chuckling over this one...
Cheers,
Svend
With regards VTA and mat thickness, Origin Live & Michell do an aftermarket VTA adjuster for the RB250/300 that allows on the fly adjustment additionally OL also does a very good platter mat.
I had a Renault 4 once that was known as The Lurch.
With regards VTA and mat thickness, Origin Live & Michell do an aftermarket VTA adjuster for the RB250/300 that allows on the fly adjustment additionally OL also does a very good platter mat.
Thanks for the head's up on that. An easily-adjustable VTA would certainly be a boon if I start playing around with different cartridges and mats (highly likely). Some of the small Origin Live parts are obtainable here on Amazon (belts, etc.), but I will have to check on the other products. If not, ordering from UK retailers is painless for us over here...I regularly order bike parts from UK online sellers, and shipping costs and speed are as good as domestic. Nice! Thanks John!
Shane, you know the old rule of thumb: tickle the gas and caress the clutch, softly, softly :). Not sure if that would work on a Renault though...
Regards,
Svend
It wasn’t so much clutch take up as it’s habit of scraping the door handles on the road round bends that earned it the name! To be honest, that car was more fun at 30MPH than a modern car at 100.
Reminds me of Jeremy Clarkson driving the Reliant Robin. :) Hilarious!
R4s roll, but they never let go!
http://www.thepippin.plus.com/Misc/R4.JPG
The shadowy figure behind the wheel, is that you? :D Love the car!
You know, that pic reminds me of my wife (then girlfriend) in her first car - a very rusty '73 Super Beetle. She drove exactly like that (still does, at times) - always at the limit of two wheels lifting off. I thought I'd die in a fiery crash. Brilliant car, though! There's a reason the mid-engine Porsches handle so well....it started with the Bug :)
Cheers,
Svend
No, that’s just a stock photo of a Renault 4 I found to illustrate the point. Oddly enough, ours expired in 1972 when my sister actually succeeded in rolling it by driving it up a bank. A large insect flew in through the vent below the windscreen, causing her to close her eyes and let go of the wheel!
The glories of thread drift!
Hope she wasn't injured!
After fenders and quarter panels started falling off from rust, and water started filling the floor pan every time it rained, my wife's Beetle went to her brother who converted it into a dune buggy. Not sure who had more fun in that car -- my wife or her brother.
Back to the Heybrook :D I looked at the record clamp from Michell, and I like it. Looks nice and light...not like the 20 oz. hockey pucks :). I will see if I can find one here. The O-L platter mat looks nice too.
Svend
Fortunately she was fine!
I’ll be interested to hear your findings with clamps and mats. The OL clamp neatly circumvents the weight issue.
Do you mean the Michell clamp? I checked through the O-L site and couldn't find a clamp. Maybe I missed it?
The Michell clamp does look good, though. Delrin, with an aluminum knob on top. Should be nice and light, but hold the record securely (if it works as it should).
In any case, I will definitely let you know how they work out. It may be a few weeks until that happens, as I usually don't like making too many changes at once -- one at a time, so I can live with it for a bit.
Hello to all you Heybrook TT2 owners out there..
I recently purchased one of these beauties in very nice condition. It came with Rega RB300 arm & exact cartridge. The arm was rewired with Cardas wire by the previous (original) owner and is connected to Cardas Cross interconnects.
I've had experience in past with the TT2 but the RB300 is totally new to me.
My first question: What is your method of floating or leveling the arm as it tends to pull out towards the armrest even with zero tracking force.
2: What is your method of setting the VTF?
3: Do you find benefit in using a clamp even if the record is flat?
TIA to all replies.
Cheers!
My first question: What is your method of floating or leveling the arm as it tends to pull out towards the armrest even with zero tracking force.
2: What is your method of setting the VTF?
3: Do you find benefit in using a clamp even if the record is flat?
TIA to all replies.
Cheers!
Hi Matz,
I had one of these arms on my TT2 for a time, so hope I can answer your questions adequately.
1) Re. levelling the arm, first thing to do is set the anti-skate bias slider to zero. This is the little knob on the sliding scale below the arm, right adjacent to the lift. If it still pulls back, don't worry about it -- just let it come to rest as far back as it will go and balance it there.
2) Once the arm is balanced, you have a couple of choices as to how to set VTF:
a) use the big dial knob on the outboard side of the arm, which acts on a spring inside that housing and providing the down force...turn to your desired setting, check it with a force gauge, and you're done; or,
b) set the VTF dial all the way to max setting (3+) which effectively disengages the spring (yes, I know that's counter-intuitive, but that's how it works), and then slide the counterweight back and forth until you get the right VTF. Some say that this method sounds better, and at first I thought so too, but later listening I decided it just sounds different, not necessarily better. You can try both and decide for yourself.
3) I have never used a clamp on this table, so can't really comment. Keep in mind that if you use a clamp, you will have to reset the suspension to accommodate the extra weight. And then you must use the clamp for every record, otherwise the suspension will be out of whack. TBH, I'm not sure that there's enough spindle sticking up for a clamp to even grab on to.
I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions. Enjoy the TT2! Wonderful deck.
Svend
Hi Matz,
I had one of these arms on my TT2 for a time, so hope I can answer your questions adequately.
1) Re. levelling the arm, first thing to do is set the anti-skate bias slider to zero. This is the little knob on the sliding scale below the arm, right adjacent to the lift. If it still pulls back, don't worry about it -- just let it come to rest as far back as it will go and balance it there.
2) Once the arm is balanced, you have a couple of choices as to how to set VTF:
a) use the big dial knob on the outboard side of the arm, which acts on a spring inside that housing and providing the down force...turn to your desired setting, check it with a force gauge, and you're done; or,
b) set the VTF dial all the way to max setting (3+) which effectively disengages the spring (yes, I know that's counter-intuitive, but that's how it works), and then slide the counterweight back and forth until you get the right VTF. Some say that this method sounds better, and at first I thought so too, but later listening I decided it just sounds different, not necessarily better. You can try both and decide for yourself.
3) I have never used a clamp on this table, so can't really comment. Keep in mind that if you use a clamp, you will have to reset the suspension to accommodate the extra weight. And then you must use the clamp for every record, otherwise the suspension will be out of whack. TBH, I'm not sure that there's enough spindle sticking up for a clamp to even grab on to.
I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions. Enjoy the TT2! Wonderful deck.
Svend
Thanks for the reply Svend,
The issue with trying to float the arm is that it pulls all way back and the armrest stops it from moving, is this a problem with the bearing? I hope not :confused:
My clamp is a Michell clamp which I found I can't use anyway since the sub platter is not flush with main platter and actually bend the records.
I'll try both methods of setting the VTF and report later.
Matz
Thanks for the reply Svend,
The issue with trying to float the arm is that it pulls all way back and the armrest stops it from moving, is this a problem with the bearing? I hope not :confused:
My clamp is a Michell clamp which I found I can't use anyway since the sub platter is not flush with main platter and actually bend the records.
I'll try both methods of setting the VTF and report later.
Matz
Hi Matz,
Did you find the anti-skate bias slider? Set to zero? Still pulling the arm back then? Let me know how that's working....
Svend
Matz, hope it's working out for you, but if you're really stuck, send me a PM with your phone number and I'll walk you through it. Happy to help you along with this....
Svend
Yes and I did set it all the to zero but it's still pulling
Thanks Svend, that's mighty generous of you!
3) I’ve never felt the need to use a weight but some people swear by them. I don’t think the bearing would be bothered much, it’s very lightly stressed. If you did end up with a dimple in the end of the spindle any competent machine shop could grind it flat and re-harden it for you. All the machining for the TT2 was done by a little two-man engineering shop near us with nothing unusual in the way of equipment.
Shane,
Re; clamps, the sub platter of the Heybrook is not flush with outer platter, is there a reason for that?
I tried using the Michell clamp and fits perfectly inside the slight indentation of the sub platter relative to the outer platter and actually warps the records.
Is there a solution to this?
Cheers!
Matz
Matz, you could try making up a disc shim of suitable thickness to fill that space and make it level with the main platter. I wonder if a CD/DVD would do it?
not that crucial Svend, just wondering what's the reason behind this particular design.
Cheers!
Matz
Shane,
Re; clamps, the sub platter of the Heybrook is not flush with outer platter, is there a reason for that?
Yes, there is. Look carefully at an LP and you’ll see that the label area and the rim are thicker than the playing area. The TT2 platter (like many others) is designed so that the playing area is supported by the mat. This helps to kill any vibration in the record itself caused by the stylus tracking the groove.
Thanks for the information Shane, always appreciated
Hi Shane, perhaps you can help
When I switched on my TT2 today I noticed slight hum, seems to come from the power supply, It's the first time I've noticed it since I got it couple of months ago.
Is it something I should look into? The table is circa 1986
Any thoughts or suggestions will be greatly appreciated
Cheers!
Matz, you should probably get that checked out. I also have a TT2 with external psu, and it is dead silent, both when running and idle. Audio One on Steeles Ave. can help you - they were the Cdn importers for Heybrook and know that table inside and out. Their tech, Claudio, is a great guy and has done some excellent work for me. I would get this sorted soon before this worsens to something unfixable - not a good scenario for that psu.
Svend
I’d go with Svend on this one. My knowledge of the TPS is minimal as it was only produced after I left the company.
I’d go with Svend on this one. My knowledge of the TPS is minimal as it was only produced after I left the company.
My TT2 does not have the external power supply. Should I hear anything when I turn it on? I hope it's only in my mind, after all, there ought to be some kind of sound when a motor is running, shouldn't there be?
Matz, you should probably get that checked out. I also have a TT2 with external psu, and it is dead silent, both when running and idle. Audio One on Steeles Ave. can help you - they were the Cdn importers for Heybrook and know that table inside and out. Their tech, Claudio, is a great guy and has done some excellent work for me. I would get this sorted soon before this worsens to something unfixable - not a good scenario for that psu.
Svend
Hi Svend, looks like it's going to Audio One next weekend. Is Claudio still there? I read conflicting reports on CAM.
Matz
Sorry, misread your post - I thought you had an external psu. Shane is best to comment on a non-TPS unit, but it doesn't seem right that there is hum. Is it coming from the speakers? Or does it still hum when all other components are off? As I said, mine is absolutely silent, running or not.
Hi Svend, looks like it's going to Audio One next weekend. Is Claudio still there? I read conflicting reports on CAM.
Matz
Sorry, you are quite right - Claudio is retired. But the guys at the shop will still be able to help, as they have lots of experience sorting out all things TT2 related, and should have spare parts if yours needs it.
Sorry, misread your post - I thought you had an external psu. Shane is best to comment on a non-TPS unit, but it doesn't seem right that there is hum. Is it coming from the speakers? Or does it still hum when all other components are off? As I said, mine is absolutely silent, running or not.
Hi Svend,
There's no hum from the speakers at all. I turned off everything and switched on the table with my ear very close to the platter and I can hear a very light, almost inaudible buzz, perhaps it's normal, I don't know. I'll have the folks at Audio One test it and while they're at it give it a proper set-up. I'll keep you posted.
Cheers!
Matz
Sounds good Matz. Hope it's nothing serious.
I also thought you were referring to a TPS. I have occasionally noticed the same thing on my non-TPS TT2 on the rare days when it’s quiet enough to hear it in this house! The non-TPS turntables have their motors connected directly across the mains and are therefore fed with whatever waveform is coming out of the wall socket. If the mains is particularly distorted or noisy that can sometimes cause a slight vibration in the motor which is probably what you’re hearing. This is the main reason why dedicated clean power supplies such as the TPS which feed a pure sine wave to the motor can produce an improvement in the sound. It’s almost certainly nothing to worry about.
I also thought you were referring to a TPS. I have occasionally noticed the same thing on my non-TPS TT2 on the rare days when it’s quiet enough to hear it in this house! The non-TPS turntables have their motors connected directly across the mains and are therefore fed with whatever waveform is coming out of the wall socket. If the mains is particularly distorted or noisy that can sometimes cause a slight vibration in the motor which is probably what you’re hearing. This is the main reason why dedicated clean power supplies such as the TPS which feed a pure sine wave to the motor can produce an improvement in the sound. It’s almost certainly nothing to worry about.
Thanks Shayne, your observation is probably correct! It's good to have you around :)
Sounds good Matz. Hope it's nothing serious.
Hi Svend, I'm pretty sure the table is fine, just my mind playing silly games :doh:
When was the last time you visited Audio One with TT2 related business?
Matz
Hi Svend, I'm pretty sure the table is fine, just my mind playing silly games :doh:
When was the last time you visited Audio One with TT2 related business?
Matz
Late last summer, just after I bought the TT2. It was having issues with the external power supply, so I brought it there and they sorted it out perfectly. BTW, when I walked in the door carrying the TT2, it sure got everyone's attention, even customers.... "That's a Heybrook!!! Great deck!" The TT2 has quite the rep here in these parts.
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