View Full Version : Big thick chunky speaker cables?
I had a friend bring around some rather thick MIT speaker cable, complete with these funny boxes stuck on and worth about £2000 the other night.
Impressive stuff, but I don't have a spare £2000 laying about and want to try something similar for DIY.
Does anyone know where I can source 4x6mm shielded cable ?
I can find 4x4mm and 2x6mm stuff but not the 4x6mm.
I need 2x5m runs by the way.
cheers
Does it have to be shielded?
I can only think of Van-damme, but their 6mm is twin rather than Quad I think.
Belden instrument wire???????
Yeah I also found the Van-Damme stuff.
If you know any that isn't shielded then please posty linky :)
There's lots of armoured 4x6mm mains/servo stuff floating around though I wouldn't like to try and get it around the back of my hifi rack.
If I remember properly, speaker cable should not be shielded, no ?
hifi_dave
14-02-2010, 19:45
It can be shielded but the best speaker cables I have heard have always been unshielded, very simple and few strands. IMO the multi stranded 'hawser' type cables always sound fat. and slow and warm.
For what it's worth, I am not a fan of cables with boxes on as this is there to tailor the sound. For my sins we did sell a lot of it in the late 90's but I never did get on with it myself. Keep it simple.
I use these now and replaced some chunky ps Audio cables that cost a lot more money
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/A-Pair-kabel-Pure-Silver-Speaker-Cables-3-0M-9-84-ft_W0QQitemZ150385757230QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defa ultDomain_0?hash=item2303b08c2e
For what it's worth, I am not a fan of cables with boxes on as this is there to tailor the sound.
Yes, the boxes turn the cables into glorified tone controls. People use them to tailor the sound of their very coloured sounding mega expensive audio jewellery.
IMO.
Yes, the boxes turn the cables into glorified tone controls. People use them to tailor the sound of their very coloured sounding mega expensive audio jewellery.
IMO.
I would have used more "diplomatic" words, but the meaning would have been similar. ;)
Last time I tried "active" speaker cables, I disconnected them within 5 seconds full of disgust. But, each does what he like with his setup...
Yes, sorry, I must learn some diplomacy sometime. I remember once a female school friend was wearing a new dress and asked what I thought. So I told her! I couldn't understand why she was upset with me. :scratch:
ha ha
I'm not too fussed about the boxes or whatever they do, I just want to try big thick bi-wire cables on my hifi.
I've tried quite a few from nordost ribbons , Anti-cables , QED Revelation (favourites so far), VDH Teatrack and my current Furutech things.
Primalsea
14-02-2010, 21:47
Although people may have found in pratice that cables with passive networks on colour the sound this is not the idea. The idea is that the network acts as a balancing element to counter the cables properties. ie, capacitance is balanced with inductance etc. Also there is an element of HF filtering hopefully way outside of the audio band so there is no effect on the phase response at what could be considered audiable.
The problem I have with this is that purely by adding any components to a cable you will colour the sound in some way, although you may be able to measure the "corrective" effects.
The other thing with passive networks is that the result in the real world is inconsistant as it depends on the source and receiving impedances.
You know, Mark, depending on the speakers and amp, bi-wiring often brings nothing really : bi-ampling does.
Have you already tried bi-wiring with simple 2,5mm or 4mm copper cable ?
I've tried bi-amping before , twice actually , but I can't find another matching Classé power amp anywhere (and don't really have the funds either)
This is only a play around experiment. I'm not looking at spending £x00s on wires. Just a few quid out of my beer token fund to see if it's worth it in the long run.
If bi-wiring doesn't work then I'll just throw large spades over both runs and have them as extra thick normal stereo cables.
It seemed to add something when I put the MIT cables in the system so I want to know if it was the thicker cable , the fancy cable , the bi-wire runs or the funny boxes attached to the wire.
Only one way to find out , and that's suck it and see.
Dave Cawley
15-02-2010, 12:37
OK, this will throw the cat amongst the pigeons! In my opinion:
An poor amplifier unable to drive difficult loads will sound better with weedy cable.
A good amplifier able to drive difficult loads will sound better using big thick wire.
www.soundhifi.com/cable.html is some of the cable I use and we can match any price, at least 50% if not much more off the price!
Regards
Dave
I don't see any 4 core 6mm thick cable on your website, am I missing something?
ha ha
at least 50% if not much more off the price!
That's because you're charging pretty much double what everyone else charges.
Dave Cawley
15-02-2010, 13:34
OK, I'll bow out.
Dave
Bi-wiring seems to work, or at least change the sound, on some setups, but good speakers don't usually need it. In fact, I can see two speaker manufacturers who have now all but abandoned the concept with no complaints...
try it and see and please report the outcomes...
Indeed, although my Focal's are not particularly expensive (compared to some), they sounded significantly better than some other more well known brands I auditioned before making my final decision.
I was very surprised to discover that neither the 700v or 800v series are bi-wired!
No Sonus Faber are bi-wirable or bi-amped or whatever, afaik.
Filterlab
15-02-2010, 16:37
A good amplifier able to drive difficult loads will sound better using big thick wire.
www.soundhifi.com/cable.html is some of the cable I use and we can match any price, at least 50% if not much more off the price!
Dave, is there any difference (qualitatively) between the 6.0mmsq Premium Van Damme Studio Timestep Cable:
http://www.soundhifi.com/images/damme6.jpg
...and the 6.0mmsq studio grade, other than the sheath?
http://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/images/bluespeaker.jpg
Dave Cawley
15-02-2010, 17:37
Hi Rob
There isn't, but I have both just in case! I also have 4 x 6mm but only for nice people like yourself!
Regards
Dave
Filterlab
15-02-2010, 17:39
Hi Rob
There isn't, but I have both just in case! I also have 4 x 6mm but only for nice people like yourself!
:) Sounds good mate. I've been reading plenty of positive reviews on the Van Damme range lately, and given my amp has plenty of power and can handle tricky loads, I think an upgrade from my X-Tube is in order. ;)
However, I would only require 2 x 6mm as my speakers are single wired.
These are my cables Rob, bought @Dave's, as I'm part of the "nice people" ;)
Excellent cables, I don't think I will ever upgrade them. :)
OK, I'll bow out.
Dave
I can understand if my comment looked like a bit of a snotty remark, but as far as I could see your link didn't have anything to do with my request of 4x6mm cables and it looked like a way for you to step in and plug your website.
No worries, you carry on talking to much nicer people :)
Filterlab
15-02-2010, 18:09
These are my cables Rob, bought @Dave's, as I'm part of the "nice people" ;)
Excellent cables, I don't think I will ever upgrade them. :)
That's good to know mate. I've just PM'd Dave about getting 10 metres of 2 x 6mm (my speakers are single wired) so hopefully they'll be as good in my system as yours. :)
OK, this will throw the cat amongst the pigeons! In my opinion:
An poor amplifier unable to drive difficult loads will sound better with weedy cable.
A good amplifier able to drive difficult loads will sound better using big thick wire.
Regards
Dave
Dave... Can you explain more.. What effect does the thinner cable have on the amp performance. I ask out of curiosity since I run a pair Martin Logan Aerius using a DIY Pass Labs F5 at 25W class A... Yeah I know :doh:
No worries, you carry on talking to much nicer people :):lolsign:
Haselsh1
15-02-2010, 19:17
For what it's worth, I use NVA LS5 loudspeaker cables and in thirty two years of using Hi-Fi, these are the finest cables I have ever heard.
Ideally the best speaker cable is no speaker cable at all! This is why many people place their amplifier as close to the speakers as possible, so as to use the shortest length of cable.
As to the cable itself, from a theoretical point of view, the cable ought to have minimum resistance and inductance. This can be achieved by choosing cables that have conductors with a large cross sectional area and where the two conductors are as close together as possible (i.e. a 'figure of eight' construction).
It is also desirable that the cable should have a low capacitance, as some amplifier designs which eschew Zobel networks can be upset when asked to drive high capacitance leads. Unfortuately the minimisation of inductance and capacitance is mutually exclusive, so it's 'horses for courses'.
There is an enormous amount of twaddle talked by some manufacturers of cables: directionality; skin depth; characteristic impedance; dielectric absorption; microphony; using rectangular conductors having a cross sectional aspect ratio in the 'golden section' etc. etc. It makes for amusing and at times heated discussion but has little or no relevance at audio frequencies.
All you need are cables made of good purity copper, of reasonable cross-section (of say, 20A rating) with a 'figure of eight' construction.
As has been mention above, avoid cables with so-called 'correction networks' fitted to them. The speakers they feed will have a far greater inductance (in the case of moving coil speakers) or capacitance (in the case of electrostatic speakers) than that of the cable for which they are supposingly trying to correct. I suspect that in their attempt to minimise the reactive component, they are turning the cable into a low pass filter with possible consequences on the group delay, phase and hence timing aspects. All this of course, depends on the output impedance of the amplifier and on the input impedance of the speaker, just to make life more difficult!
Regards
Mike Reed
17-02-2010, 20:03
Useful stuff, Barry. I've looked at the Van Damme 6mm leads in this thread, they look similar to my NAC A5, although I'm sure there are differences.
However, you advocate 'figure of eight' construction, (which I take to be 'woven', though there are only two cores). Both mine and the V.D. are of parallel construction.
As a complete scientific novice, I would have thought that this 'flat' parallel approach would be better; partly to obviate any crosstalk but partly to ensure the equal length of each speaker lead core. Mind you, manufacturing processes may mean that this latter never occurs.
I'd be interested in any replacement speaker leads which delineate the bass better, but not to the detriment of the fine balance in the rest of the audio frequency range.
DevillEars
17-02-2010, 20:44
Ideally the best speaker cable is no speaker cable at all! This is why many people place their amplifier as close to the speakers as possible, so as to use the shortest length of cable.
Hi Barry,
There is another factor that needs to be considered in this equation - the total end-to-end distance from pre-amp to speakers - where the power amps (usually monoblocs in extreme cases) sit somewhere between the pre-amp and speakers.
If the total distance is shortish, then the argument for placing the amps close to the speakers makes sense. If, however, the total distance is significant, then one needs to balance the two issues of:
a) Long run speaker cable problems (at high signal levels)
b) Long run interconnect cable problems (at low signal levels)
Using balanced interconnects between pre-amp and power amps can go a long way to mitigating any challenges from long interconnect runs.
If, however, the power amp is a single stereo amp, then the ability to get the amp-speaker runs short tends to be limited (unless one places the speakers adjacent to the stereo amp - which tends to limit stage-width and other spatial cues).
As far as the rest of the post is concerned, I'll keep shtum... :)
Dave
Useful stuff, Barry. I've looked at the Van Damme 6mm leads in this thread, they look similar to my NAC A5, although I'm sure there are differences.
However, you advocate 'figure of eight' construction, (which I take to be 'woven', though there are only two cores). Both mine and the V.D. are of parallel construction.
As a complete scientific novice, I would have thought that this 'flat' parallel approach would be better; partly to obviate any crosstalk but partly to ensure the equal length of each speaker lead core. Mind you, manufacturing processes may mean that this latter never occurs.
I'd be interested in any replacement speaker leads which delineate the bass better, but not to the detriment of the fine balance in the rest of the audio frequency range.
Hello Mike,
By 'figure of eight', I meant that the two conductors run parallel to one another as closely as possible, so that in cross section the cable looks like:
OO ,
rather than some cables which have a cross section which resembles a 'dumbell':
O-O, or O--O .
in the latter case there is greater separation between the conductors, so the inductance is increased.
Regards
Hello Dave,
Yes, what I had in mind as the ideal situation, would be the use of single channel monoblock power amplifiers each situated behind the respective speaker (or even in the speaker cabinet) and connected to the speaker crossover network by the shortest length of cable possible. The power amplifiers would be connected to the preamp using balanced line interconnects.
In the absence of separate channel amplifiers, a two channel amplifier placed between the amplifiers and connected to the speakers by relatively short lengths of cable, is often better than the situation where the power amplifier is close to the preamp (it might be integrated with the preamp) and long speaker leads are used.
In my case, I have the power amplifier close to the preamp and use long speaker leads (6m and 16m). My aim is to eventually replace this arrangement with one as I have described. As far as the speaker is concerned, the resistance of the cables is in series with the output impedance of the amplifier. The damping factor is thus reduced from say 400 to (in my case) 64 and 36. The amplifier thus has less control of the speaker; however in my case, using elecrostatic speakers there is very little mass to control (in comparison to the cone of a moving coil speaker).
One of the members here, Chris (The Grand Wazoo) employs bi-amping and uses two stereo amplifies placed midway between his speakers. The amplifiers are connected to the preamp and the rest of his equipment using unbalanced interconnects. The preamp etc. is situated in a room adjacent to the listening room, so the low level signal cables are not particularly short.
I would imagine that Chris has tried out both configurations and come to the conclusion that short speaker leads are best. Perhaps he might be able to comment on this.
Regards
The Grand Wazoo
18-02-2010, 00:41
Barry & Dave,
One of the members here, Chris (The Grand Wazoo) employs bi-amping and uses two stereo amplifies placed midway between his speakers. The amplifiers are connected to the preamp and the rest of his equipment using unbalanced interconnects. The preamp etc. is situated in a room adjacent to the listening room, so the low level signal cables are not particularly short.
I would imagine that Chris has tried out both configurations and come to the conclusion that short speaker leads are best. Perhaps he might be able to comment on this.
Barry describes my arrangement very well. The pre to power connection is via a pair of double screened coax cables with the foil outer screen connected only at the preamp end. These would be about 8 metres long & have RCA phonos at each end.
They connect into a small box with 1 pair of inputs and 4 pairs of output sockets. From this box, I can run cables to up to 4 power amps. At the moment I'm using 2 power amps & I plug a headphone amp into one of the spares when I need it. The cable runs between the box & the power amps are the same configuration but with Fischer Camac connectors at the far end. These are quite short runs.
The speaker cables would be about 2.2 metres long.
My experiments go back to when I used speakers with 3 way crossovers. I tried various configurations and having the pre to power amp runs longer and shorter speaker cables always worked better.
I'm convinced that having the majority of the gear in another room has contributed a lot to the quality of sound I'm getting, but from previous experience, I'd be very surprised if putting the power amps in the other room improved things more than having the cables configured this way. One day I'll get round to testing that theory.
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