Cart Loading MC

[sq225917]

This is a 50/50 topic (diy bent).

Assume you're buying a fancy new phonostage, what would you expect for MC loading options? Are you happy swapping resistors in siL sockets, do you expect DIP switches or do you want to see some multi-position mil-spec switched attenuator type arrangement?

What's the best you've owned and used?

Pics if possible please... ;-)

[Beobloke]

This is a 50/50 topic (diy bent).

Assume you're buying a fancy new phonostage, what would you expect for MC loading options? Are you happy swapping resistors in siL sockets, do you expect DIP switches or do you want to see some multi-position mil-spec switched attenuator type arrangement?

What's the best you've owned and used?

Pics if possible please... ;-)

I want a proper set of the appropriate switches fitted with proper knobs and located on the front panel. No internal jumper or solder links and none of those ridiculous PCB mounting DIP switches hidden away on the back panel or underneath.

[Haselsh1]

I want a proper set of the appropriate switches fitted with proper knobs and located on the front panel. No internal jumper or solder links and none of those ridiculous PCB mounting DIP switches hidden away on the back panel or underneath.

Yep, would be really nice.

[Barry]

Yes, front panel switches for both gain, and for cartridge loading resistance and capacitance.

Regarding the latter, I would like to see a choice of 47R (for Transfiguration cartridges and for Ortofon SPUs), 100R (for the majority of MC carts), 240R (for EMTs) and 390R (for Denon 103s). And an ability to add 2.2uF for some Fidelity Research MCs.

[killie99]

big adjustable knob on the front which you can fiddle with til your hearts content, as used on the Project Phono RS.

http://www.acrylteller.com/WebRoot/Store2/Shops/es122814_acrylteller/50A7/A68F/7C8A/F503/D21D/50ED/8960/31DC/569_pro-ject_phono_box_rs_1.jpg

[hifi_dave]

Depends on price. If it's an inexpensive unit, then a fixed load is appropriate.

As you go further up the price scale, then dip switches will do a good job and then onto rotary switches for top notch gear. An extra position for variable loading where internal resistor changes can be made, might be useful at the top end of the price range.

[Firebottle]

I prefer to see loading sockets, so a loading plug can be fitted with whatever resistance and/or capacitance is required.

Easy to implement, very flexible and not expensive to have a few different 'loads'. Plus no tiny switches in circuit.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Hi Si,

This is the same thing I asked you to do for my Paradise if I remember properly. The difference being that I'd have liked some sort of numerical display to give an exact reading of loading for preferably in both channels. I'd love to have a multi-position mil-spec switched attenuator for each channel with high precision resistors something like 0.1% tolerance :eyebrows:. This way you can have all the loading characteristics you like so you can utilise DECCA's, Denon's, SPU's, EMT's etc etc. It would be costly but it might be the last word is messing around????? I'm still up for it if you fancy doing something for me. We might even have to change cases, maybe a two box grab handle thingy. :eek:

[SquireC]

I have a Uphorik phono stage, and excellent it is too, but the switches are underneath and you have to try different loadings with the box upside down. It would spoil the look of the box if they were on the front like the Project, but it would be easier to set up. I suppose the logic is that once you've found the right settings, you don't touch it again for a long time, so underneath is tidy.

[sq225917]

It's more curiosity than anything else.

I know what I'm happy with but I'm interested in the breadth of opinion out there. The Project option looks like what I thought a top end solution would be. I was thinking of a decent taper giving values from a handful of ohms up to 1k, maybe 20 values in total.


Andy it would really need to be a re-box for yours to fit those ELMA switches in. RCA socket loading I could do for you no bother in your current cases, but based on what you say you want it visible.

Thanks for the opinions guys.



------------------------------------------------------

"you make it hard to be nice to you"

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andy it would really need to be a re-box for yours to fit those ELMA switches in. RCA socket loading I could do for you no bother in your current cases, but based on what you say you want it visible.



Si, next year mate, DEFINITELY. I've just upgraded every component of my valve system. The XO, the paradise, the 301 and even a replacement amp. So, funds are a little low for a few months. Maybe first quater on 2018. I'll give you a shoult when I'm ready.

[sq225917]

No worries, no rush.

[6L6]

I've used this before, I think ergonomically it's close to perfect;

http://hometheaterhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/pass-xp-25-phono-preamp-large.jpg

[Bigman80]

That's very pleasing to the eye.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Firebottle]

...but not the wallet, £12,000 :eek:

[struth]

yes, lovely bit of kit:)

[martinjohn308]

Hi Simon,

As you know i’ve had my Paradise about 2 years now, a fabulous phono stage had the Whest 30R before which had dil switches for gains and loading. Yes very easy to switch loading but limited to about 5 or 6 settings.

Coming back to the Paradise gain was fine out of the box using a Kiseki Blue NS but played with loading for several weeks. Started with 330R then progressed to 120R but finally settled on 220R. Yes it’s fiddly unplugging swapping resistors but once settled on the value you told me to buy the Z foil resistors. It’s been playing beautifully ever since, I suppose if if I had several different cartridges it would be easier to have dil switches but for me it’s not an issue.

Regards,

Martin

[Marco]

Let's not forget folks, that the more wire and 'gubbins' that the [tiny and delicate] signal from a low-output MC cartridge has to negotiate, in order for all these different loading options to be facilitated, the less likely that signal is to retain its integrity, and with it, the less music you'll hear...

Therefore, with phono stages, the purist in me says 'Keep It Simple, Stupid', and prioritise quality over convenience, which means having a phono stage dedicated to optimising the sonics and electrical parameters of ONE specific cartridge [the one we like best, thus will end up using most often], all hard-wired into a circuit, with no knobs, dials or switches, all introducing noise into the signal path.

Don't get me wrong, I get the idea of having variable gain and loading options, so you can fiddle to your heart's content, and optimise the sound of cartridges (as far as possible within those restrictions), but once you've found the ideal settings, then the best sound will always be achieved by hardwiring those settings into position, which takes me to my point above, as in audio, there's *always* a sonic penalty to be paid for convenience!

Given what experience has taught me over the years, how I'd do it if I were starting again, would be to have a circuit designed by one of the many capable EEs here [needn't be too expensive] that would allow accurate testing of variable gain and loading options for my favourite cartridge (wouldn't need to be too expensive), which would simply allow me to ascertain the optimal electrical parameters for the cartridge, in terms of gain and loading - nothing else.

Once done, I'd then have a high-quality dedicated phono stage built, which would 'set' the cartridge at those parameters internally and also optimise its sonics, and in that respect it would most likely be a valve-based design, as for me, the best valve phono stages get the most (musically) out of vinyl.

That said, I've still not heard a standalone MC stage, valve or solid-state, that to my ears sounds as good as a high-quality, hardwired throughout, valve MM stage used in conjunction with a top-notch head amp (or in some cases SUT) - ones that truly bring out the best sonic and musical qualities of the partnering cartridge, which is the hard bit and ultimately what it's all about...

In terms of matching, getting the electrical parameters right is piss-easy; the hard bit, and where the real magic lies with vinyl replay, is in understanding how to get a particular cartridge to 'sing' [the concept of 'synergy'], and in turn make the most of the music contained on your records - and that's where science goes out the window, or a fixed adherence to technical considerations, and ears and experience come in! ;)

Marco.

[YNWaN]

If one regularly changes cartridges then I can definitely see the attraction of front mounted controls, but otherwise they just add complexity, cost and extra switch contacts. As Alan wrote earlier, in series RCA loading is cheap, flexible and quick to swap over. The negative is that you have to make, or buy, the loading plugs (making them is very easy though) and extra contacts are introduced into the signal path (as with the switch option). The purist way, but also the most awkward, is to have components that plague in directly supported by a fixed soldered option.

I had all this internal debate when I boxed up my Paradise and, in the end, decided on push fit sockets fitted to the circuit board directly: High quality switches add significant cost whilst still limiting you to a set range of values. RCA loading sockets (or DIN, or other type) nearly one but I didn’t fancy the extra wiring and contacts at such a critical point in the circuit. So I went for board mounted sockets. Still an extra contact but zero extra signal path.

[Marco]

The purist way, but also the most awkward, is to have components that plague in directly supported by a fixed soldered option.


Plague... That bad, eh? ;)


I had all this internal debate when I boxed up my Paradise and, in the end, decided on push fit sockets fitted to the circuit board directly: High quality switches add significant cost whilst still limiting you to a set range of values. RCA loading sockets (or DIN, or other type) nearly one but I didn’t fancy the extra wiring and contacts at such a critical point in the circuit. So I went for board mounted sockets. Still an extra contact but zero extra signal path.

Yup, ultimately the best compromise. Naim had it right with their plug-in 'K' boards, etc. It's just that what was used, component wise, wasn't the of the highest quality, or necessarily implemented optimally, but the principle was right!

Marco.

[Bigman80]

...but not the wallet, £12,000 :eek:Sweet Jesus!!!!!

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[montesquieu]

Yes, front panel switches for both gain, and for cartridge loading resistance and capacitance.

Regarding the latter, I would like to see a choice of 47R (for Transfiguration cartridges and for Ortofon SPUs), 100R (for the majority of MC carts), 240R (for EMTs) and 390R (for Denon 103s). And an ability to add 2.2uF for some Fidelity Research MCs.

Assuming (as I think the original post makes clear - that this is an MC stage rather than MM ) then I agree with this list of R values, plus 1k is useful.

Mono button too as some mono cartridges with a single generator can hum if used into both channels. Personally I also find a lot of use for different equalisation options where turnover and roll-off can be varied (again in conjunction with mono). In fact more people need this than realise they need it.

I've never been fussed about capacitance for MC, though I can see the point for older MMs.

[YNWaN]

Once you start adding alternate equalisation curves you are spending as much on the ‘support’ circuitry as the actual stage itself and costs will jump significantly.

[Marco]

I'm also of the opinion that mono vinyl set-ups need (dedicated) specialist phono stages, working in conjunction with mono-only cartridges, totally separate from the phono stage used with stereo cartridges, if you want to do the job right.

Marco.

[montesquieu]

I'm also of the opinion that mono vinyl set-ups need (dedicated) specialist phono stages, working in conjunction with mono-only cartridges, totally separate from the phono stage used with stereo cartridges, if you want to do the job right.

Marco.

Disagree Marco. Nick Gorham built a dedicated single channel mono phono stage for me when I had a dedicated mono rig (Leak TL12+ into ESL63, various turntables including a Rock 2 used with a Mono cartridge), but listening to mono on a stereo rig with stereo speakers is actually more enjoyable, with far more sense of back to front depth possible due to the psycho-acoustic effect of the wall of mono sound two speakers generate. I persevered with single speaker mono for a while as it's supposedly more authentic, but I was kidding myself and broke it up/sold it all in the end. Having a mono cartridge is more important than the mono nature of the amplification as the quality of the initial mono signal is the critical component.

As for adding complication to the phono stage - I'm thinking here from a marketing perspective - differentiation is the key to commercial success. What's the point in another me too minimalist phono stage, almost regardless how good, when many buyers will just buy a brand, and others will never get round to hearing it? Sell them the additional functionality and have them luxuriate in it .... either that or instill anxiety that without it they won't be able to hear their records properly. (Which I would argue is true).

I love my EAR 912 and its swiss army knife nature (just about any cartridge can be played through it), but it still doesn't do everything needed for satisfactory analogue reproduction of any disk from 1920 to today ... so I have to put an Equalisation box in the (tape) loop. If I could get all that, at same quality, all in one box, that would be very appealing.

As for compromise from switches etc - well the reason I bought it was because Petrat brought his down for me to hear and it was a considerable improvement on Hashimoto HM7 + Aurorasound Vida + Modwright 36.5 preamp - all purist components in their own way. What's worse, a high quality few switches in an integrated component or 2m of additional interconnect + socket connections + internal wiring?

[YNWaN]

You rather assume people are prepared to pay for all this additional functionality - my experience is that the majority are not.

[montesquieu]

You rather assume people are prepared to pay for all this additional functionality - my experience is that the majority are not.

The point I'm making is one of desirability. The world is awash with feature-free phono stages. The only one I can think of that does most of what I'm suggesting is the Thoress one:

http://www.thoeress.com/images/thoeress-phono-enhancer-01.jpg

Sexy beast I'm sure you would agree.

The various theoretical work that's been done in the area of strategic marketing suggests that there are two places to be if you want commercial success: I paraphrase but these are broadly pile-em high/sell em cheap, or niche/specialist - that is, differentiated in some way.

Of course you can still attempt to differentiate by making the best purist/'no buttons' phono stage at the price point - but there are literally hundreds of rivals out there there that would dispute the claim. Or you can build something that almost no-one else is making and meets needs that people don't know they have yet. I would suggest the latter is the easier sell - not only that but the niche can be made bigger by selling more people on the value of the approach. This is an easier course of action than a head to head 'mine's better than yours' based on purely subjective criteria.

[sq225917]

Its actually trivial to make a Paradise that can take any eq curve. Its only two resistor and cap values per channel, so could be done on push pin like loading is now.

For the purist its good as it is. If you abhor switches then rca loading plugs could be used adding only 10cm of wire, there's no more contacts as one would replace the current pushpin with the rca connection, so still only two none soldered contacts overall.

I guess for convenience sake though its front mounted switch, something like a smt Elma switch with silver make before break contacts.

[YNWaN]

Plague... That bad, eh? ;)



Yup, ultimately the best compromise. Naim had it right with their plug-in 'K' boards, etc. It's just that what was used, component wise, wasn't the of the highest quality, or necessarily implemented optimally, but the principle was right!

Marco.

Whoops, ‘plug’ in, not ‘plague’.

Naim’s solution was to pretty much make the whole phonostage plug in and make subtly different versions with different gain and loading. In my Paradise only the loading resistor is plug in (a capacitor can also be added).

[Barry]

Assuming (as I think the original post makes clear - that this is an MC stage rather than MM ) then I agree with this list of R values, plus 1k is useful.

Mono button too as some mono cartridges with a single generator can hum if used into both channels. Personally I also find a lot of use for different equalisation options where turnover and roll-off can be varied (again in conjunction with mono). In fact more people need this than realise they need it.

I've never been fussed about capacitance for MC, though I can see the point for older MMs.

Even if we are only considering moving-coil cartridges, some gain adjustment is desirable as not all MCs have the same output. For example, EMTs put out between 0.75 - 1.05mV (at 5cm/s) depending on model, whereas Ortofon SPUs produce between 0.2 -0.3mV, again depending on model. Thats a difference of 14dB.

In general MCs are not too fussy about the capacitive loading, but some Fidelity Research cartridges definitely benefit from some extra capacitance, for example the FR202 needs 1.5uF to remove a treble peak of +6dB at 15kHz to a virtual ruler-flat response.

IMO all amplifiers should have a 'mono' button, but the facility to alter the equalisation is only really useful if you have many recordings made before 1960; after which the RIAA equalisation had been universally accepted as standard by all the major record labels.

[Barry]

The point I'm making is one of desirability. The world is awash with feature-free phono stages. The only one I can think of that does most of what I'm suggesting is the Thoress one:

http://www.thoeress.com/images/thoeress-phono-enhancer-01.jpg



Love the look of the Thoeress unit. I believe the Swiss company FM Acoustics make something similar.

https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=246x1024:format=jpg/path/sb99076bb5e16690c/image/ie028a710c2bbc064/version/1501942568/image.jpg