Sounds a bit shrill-is it my Audion?

[Pigmy Pony]

I have an issue that I'm hoping you someone out there can help me with.

My stuff comprises Monarch turntable with Ortofon 2M Black, Yaqin phono stage, Densen Beat B-400 Plus CD player, Audion Silver Night Mk 2 Stereo power amp, and Zu Omen Defs. Interconnects and speaker wires are Atlas.

I bought the amp secondhand and it came with PS Vane 300b valves, dunno what they're called but the bottles are black.

Sound is ok at low volumes, but at moderate to high volumes becomes quite 'shouty' in the midrange, with female vocals suffering the most.

I would like the music to draw me in, but this coarseness is pushing me away, and I find myself playing the same few records and CDs all the time. Recordings made in recent years are the most painful, while early 'singer songwriter' stuff (Carly Simon, James Taylor etc you know the kind of thing)is just right.

I don't have any 'hifi' buddies to consult with, so for all I know it may my hearing that's the problem, and I should man-up and embrace the 'liveness' of the sound.

I've considered requesting some replacement valves in my letter to Santa, but I'd like advice from some superior minds first.

regards, Ste

[Haselsh1]

Ste, I may well be incorrect here but I think you are overdriving the amp. This amp is an 8 Watter. I had a similar amplifier back in 1997 that was an Audion 300B SEL and it sounded bloody gorgeous.

[Haselsh1]

Also, for what it is worth, I have had only one experience with Psvane valves and it didn't end well.

[Pigmy Pony]

Thank you Shaun for your quick reply, clearly you type with more than two fingers!

I hadn't considered that, the Zu's have a quoted sensitivity of 101 dbW, going from 0 to Armageddon on next to nowt. I should try another amp for comparison.

[Ammonite Audio]

The 2M Black is notoriously fickle regarding setup and loading at the phono stage, so it might just be that it needs a bit of height adjustment to get VTA/SRA right (the Shibata tip is quite fussy about alignment). Equally likely is that the combined capacitance load of the tonearm cabling, plus whatever the Yaqin phono stage has across its input, is a tad high. The 2M Black will tend to be uncomfortably shrill with too much capacitance - many users have found that when loaded optimally, the 2M Black becomes a superb performer.

TonyL over at Pink Fish Media has been through all of this with his 2M Black and a search of that forum will bring up some good recommendations.

[hifi_dave]

Two things spring to mind - the amp running out of steam and/or the speakers. I stocked Zu for a short while, some years back and whilst they were fast and fun, they were rather coarse, especially through the mid.

Have you had the Zu speakers sounding good with other amps ? and/or have you had the amp sounding good with other speakers ?

[hifi_dave]

The 2M Black is notoriously fickle regarding setup and loading at the phono stage, so it might just be that it needs a bit of height adjustment to get VTA/SRA right (the Shibata tip is quite fussy about alignment). Equally likely is that the combined capacitance load of the tonearm cabling, plus whatever the Yaqin phono stage has across its input, is a tad high. The 2M Black will tend to be uncomfortably shrill with too much capacitance - many users have found that when loaded optimally, the 2M Black becomes a superb performer.

TonyL over at Pink Fish Media has been through all of this with his 2M Black and a search of that forum will bring up some good recommendations.

If it was cartridge related, it would occur at any volume level.

[Pigmy Pony]

Thanks Hugo, I'll check out TonyL, hopefully not too many big words will be used as I'm a total donkey when it comes to things technical. I should mention that the coarseness applies to CDs as well.

[Ammonite Audio]

Ah, I read the OP as being OK with CD, but reading it again properly I can see that it’s a system problem. Still worth setting up a 2M Black carefully, though.

[Pigmy Pony]

Hi Dave, this is all your fault, telling us about your Luxman amps and making me want one!

I first heard the Zu's an Audio show in Manchester about 5 years ago, driven by some 845's. and then I auditioned them with a Siver Night. Both times I was impressed with the sound.

When took delivery of the speakers the nice man from Audio Counsel (think his name was Dave too) thought the amp might want a service, but I'd run out money by then.

[hifi_dave]

Sorry about that but Luxman are rather special.

If you have heard your Zu speakers sounding good in your system, then it is probably an amp problem, if all else in the system is the same.

[Pigmy Pony]

I'm betting there's a wealth of experience here with valves-can anybody recommend ones to try? Could I calm it down by changing the valves, I know Shaun wasn't too impressed with PS Vanes.

[walpurgis]

A change of valves won't alter the general balance of the amp. Tonal changes between valves are relatively minor in comparison.

[hifi_dave]

Steve,
I'm still not sure if the problems occurred when you put the amp in the system. Have you had the speakers sounding good in your room, previously and it went downhill when the amp was inserted ?

[Haselsh1]

I used my Audion 300B SEL with Audio Note AZ2's and the combination was excellent. In theory, your speakers should be fine regarding sensitivity. I used my amp with CD and vinyl and never had a problem until I realised that it was all very 'one trick pony' and only really suited acoustic music. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful really. As Dave says though, a change of valves is unlikely to bring about the kind of solution you are looking for.

[YNWaN]

What you are describing does sound very much like the amp is being driven into clipping, or perhaps the input stage is a bit too sensitive and that is being overdriven. However, all the Zu speakers I have heard have had a rather coarse upper mid and a zing to the lower treble.

[Intenso]

1st thing I would look at is your mains cabling arrangements.

I would make sure that the amp wasn't connected to any mains extension block. I've had amps in the past that were very fussy about where and what they were plugged into.

Then I would try to see what replacing the interconnects may bring, I have used cables in the past that have accentuated sharpness.

Finally, I would consider the amp. Did you have an amp in the system previous to this one? Was that also sharp sounding?

You may need to home dem something to get a sense of where the current issue lies...

[Macca]

Swapping in a different amp would be the first move as the likelihood is that is the problem. if not, you can at least eliminate the amp from your inquiries.

[JohnJo]

I've had a similar issue with mids becoming shouty as volume is increased. I cured it by putting a soft covering on the 1st reflection points, a foot or two in front of the speakers at the sides of the room. Also something on the front and rear walls will improve things further, particularly imaging and soundstage depth. Try using towels or blankets, throws etc.

The mids seem to reflect more than the bass and so things can sound harsh and toppy due to the slight time delay of the reflected sound and altered tonal balance.

Well worth a try with some temporary materials.

I'm going to invest in some proper room treatment.

[paulf-2007]

My omens sounded bloody marvelous with 4 watts of PX25 in a well treated room

[sq225917]

The zus can sound a bit shout, if you're amp is being pushed that might exacerbate the effect. Try another amp.

[Pigmy Pony]

Thank you so much everyone for your suggestions which I'll work through, starting with swapping the amp temporarily.

Some have asked if the amp sounded ok with other components, and the answer is I don't know.

For some time my records and CDs were played through an ancient LP12 and a Samsung blu ray player, a sony av amp, and MA Radius surround Speakers and BK XLS200 sub.

About 5 years ago me and my brothers inherited a house which we refurbed and sold. I spent half of my share on stereo stuff (much to my family's dismay) but I knew I would never get another chance to do this. I had heard valve gear before at various audio shows and loved the warm sound and cool looks but knew they would always be beyond my reach. Well now was my chance to do this. I heard the Zu speakers and audion amps at an Audio Show and decided that's what I wanted.

I bought the Audion secondhand online from a dealer somewhere in Wales and it sat at home doing nothing for 3 months while the Zu's were being made (the missus would only allow these monsters through the door if I stumped up the extra £1800 for piano gloss finish!) So the Audion didn't get any use until the day Dave from Audio Counsel brought the speakers. He did at the time suggest servicing the amp and and maybe getting a quality mains block. At this point I felt I'd pushed the expenditure as far as I dared so that was it till now.

I have so much invested in these speakers that I really need the problem to be elsewhere.

I'll try another amp first and see what happens.

[JohnJo]

Are the speakers newish Steve, hard to tell from the above? Are they fully run in?

[farflungstar]

The tubes aren't the problem unless you're pushing the amp into clipping - which is easier to do than you think for a whole number of reasons. I have Treasure series and hifi series Shuguan and PSvane tubes and they are very well behaved unless asked to deliver more than they are designed to.

Even putting in a second amp might not nail the culprit - though I reckon the little audion is being pushed beyond its limit. This means either a new amp or lowering the volume.

I have the same (well almost) problem at the minute. I have big mother fu**a Cary 805c's which chuck out 50rms of set magic which with Ane's sound magical and never hard - now going into clipping and shouting like crazy even though they are driving a higher sensitivity speaker (Tannoy) than they are used to. Why this is is complex and all about impedances and such like as well as the fact that my system is so 'clean' and with such a dynamic range it's easy to turn up the wick on a quiet intro only to be snarled at when things get hot. Lesson - my beloved amps dont match my new beloved speakers - so a new amp.

[Pigmy Pony]

Zu's do take a long time to run in, but I've had them exactly 4 years now. They don't get as much use as I'd like, maybe 500 hrs, cos there are compatibility problems with my music tastes and my other half's ears. She's on board with my Talking Heads records, but finds Frank Zappa a bit of a challenge.

[Pigmy Pony]

Hi Adrian, my head is beginning to hurt! I'd assumed that high sensitivity speakers would mean an easy life for the amp, but from what you say about your new Tannoys it would seem to be not as simple as that.

I suppose I was foolish to think I could throw money at some components and assume that would be the end of it. Many of you have some incredibly exotic systems but still strive for better!

If I find the Audion is running out of steam, then it will be a change of amp, but I will have some serious groundwork to do for about 6 months to get her onside.

[struth]

can be a difficult thing to get right first time Steve, but keep the faith and you will be rewarded.

[farflungstar]

Welcome to my club lol. I have a legendary pair of set amps sitting doing nothing whilst a 30 year old class A DIY build is singing like a Canary. Go figure.

[montesquieu]

This seems like a sticky problem and the first thing I’d try is another amp ... given the Zus’ sensitivity even a £50 chip amp might tell you something.

I think the mains suggestion might also be on to something. For sure try the power amp directly into the wall.

On paper this is certainly a workable combination.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Haselsh1]

I'd assumed that high sensitivity speakers would mean an easy life for the amp

Sorry mate but some loudspeakers are very highly sensitive but put up a helluva 'fight' against the amplifier. Often referred to as a difficult 'load'. I cannot comment further as I have no knowledge of yours.

[Stratmangler]

I have to agree with what Shaun has just said.
Speakers are a reactive load, and the amount of current required to drive them can vary enormously. It's also entirely program dependent.
Taking an awkward load (as the Zus appear to be) and powering them with a single ended 300B amplifier is going to be, well let's just say it will be interesting.

You're only over in Chorley - give Toppsy a shout about listening to some Edingdale MkIIs.
They've been designed specifically with single ended 300 amps in mind.

[Macca]

Can't find any measurements for these speakers on line but according to this review https://hometheaterreview.com/zu-audio-omen-def-loudspeakers-reviewed/

The OMEN DEF's frequency response is a reported 30-25,000Hz into a nominal six Ohm load with an efficiency of 98dB at one Watt at one meter, making it an ideal candidate for tube amplifiers, especially single ended triode amps like my Decware SE84C+.

Also

I ended my evaluation of the OMEN DEFs by connecting them to my single ended triode system. With a whole two Watts of power to play with, the OMEN DEF saved their best for last for the Decware/Zu Audio combination was amazing. Not only did the addition of tubes curb a bit of the OMEN DEF's slightly forward sound, it also added additional air and dimension to the mix, making for one hell of a performance when listening to an old favorite like "Say Goodbye" from Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds' album Live at Luther College (RCA)

Given that this is a crossoverless speaker using two full range drivers and his comments about the speakers sounding 'uncouth' with a 'bright sounding or lean amp' my guess is that the issue here is a speaker with some audible cone break up added to an amp with some audible odd-order harmonic distortion. With a speaker like that you really need an amp that is smooth as silk, not one that adds a bit of 'raunch' via some distortion.

[sq225917]

Truth is, it could be any number of things and the only way to find out is by changing one thing at a time. Zu's are widely regarded as being 'able' to lean towards a forward sound. One mans forward is another mans exciting so YMMV. I think Macca is likely on the money. Certainly my limited experience of them is that they aren't good for head banging.

[paulf-2007]

Are the speakers newish Steve, hard to tell from the above? Are they fully run in?
Zu run the speakers in at the factory and even replacement or upgraded drivers are run in. As for the person who suggested zu are shouty, sorry but that is bollocks.

[Infinitely Baffled]

Steve, I have got an Audio Note 300B SET amp sitting here doing nothing. You are welcome to have it on loan for a couple of months to substitute into your system to see if it improves things. OK, it's the same sort of amp as yours, generically speaking, whereas it might have been more logical to sub-in a completely different type. But you've got to start somewhere, and the fact that it is also a 300B jobbie could be a useful comparison. It is using Shuguang Black Treasures, by the way. If you can face the schlepp over to Welshpool to collect it, it could be a worthwhile first step to pinpointing your problem. PM me if interested.
IB

[sq225917]

Like I said one man's shouty is another man's exciting.

[jandl100]

This seems like a sticky problem and the first thing I’d try is another amp ... given the Zus’ sensitivity even a £50 chip amp might tell you something.



I'd be happy to loan the OP my Amptastic Mini-T - a small amp that punches way above its weight imo and should provide a decent quick comparison.

Steve - drop me a PM with your name and address if you want to give it a go. :)
-- it's only £2.90 each way with Royal Mail small parcel post.

[Andy831]

Hi Steve

If it helps I could bring a pair of Nick Gorhams 300b set monoblocks around to try on the Zu's

Andy

[paulf-2007]

Like I said one man's shouty is another man's exciting.
I don't know who these men are Simon, I certainly know shouty, some lowthers yes, some small fostex and those drivers that are popular in open baffles, can't remember the name. I also know exciting, but I don't see zu as either, maybe in an untreated room with reflections etc they may be. Going slightly off topic, dx45 6" lowthers have non of the shout of the bigger drivers and are just totally revealing, if a little bass light.

[Jazid]

It could be the speakers interaction with the room, my listening room makes everything a bit shouty and I have had to play with all sorts to ameliorate this effect which is a PITA. I'd wait till the other half is out and move the speakers and listening position around, also get some towels or blankets to break up reflection points as an earlier poster suggested. This will tell you how much the room can change the sound so you can judge this particular contribution to your problem, it could just be the 'smoking gun' and is free to do, if it works then proper room treatment is relatively affordable (if domestically acceptable). If the sound just remains shouty then I'm afraid you're going to have to think about trying a few different pairs of speakers IN YOUR ROOM.

Re. Valve amps the Audion might have something to do with your problem, but Zu speakers are designed with SETs in mind (unlike Tannoy DCs), and Paulf above enjoyed his Zu speakers with an even lower powered PX25 amp so I'd say unlikely to be a massive effect. Jerry's T-amp offer is sensible, a diffferent class of amp is needed to highlight any amp-speaker interactions should these be significant.

Re. Valves I am a bit OCD valve rolling and have rolled more 300b than I care to admit in SET, PSET, and PP amps. There are certainly differences but they are modest compared to speaker and room effects, they will flavour a well-functioning system, not cure a problem. If still keen you may be better off rolling the driver valves first as these often have a more pronounced effect, and are much cheaper and easier to sell on. If your valves are getting toward the end of their life then I'd expect a lifeless sound and weakening frequency extremes. That might sound shouty but lifeless doesn't seem like your system's problem?

Re. Servicing the amps, I'd get it done as a priority. I think I have read that (older) Audions run quite hot and towards the limit of component tolerances - maybe ne reason why they sound so good? A look over from someone like Graeme (Valvebloke on the Wam) or Mr Firebottle here could be prudent - there's a lot of expensive damage possible with a popped capacitor and your speakers (and house) deserve a bit of protection...boring but prudent. They will check over the valves at the same time so you know if there's a discernable problem there.

[montesquieu]

It could be the speakers interaction with the room, my listening room makes everything a bit shouty and I have had to play with all sorts to ameliorate this effect which is a PITA. I'd wait till the other half is out and move the speakers and listening position around, also get some towels or blankets to break up reflection points as an earlier poster suggested. This will tell you how much the room can change the sound so you can judge this particular contribution to your problem, it could just be the 'smoking gun' and is free to do, if it works then proper room treatment is relatively affordable (if domestically acceptable). If the sound just remains shouty then I'm afraid you're going to have to think about trying a few different pairs of speakers IN YOUR ROOM.

Re. Valve amps the Audion might have something to do with your problem, but Zu speakers are designed with SETs in mind (unlike Tannoy DCs), and Paulf above enjoyed his Zu speakers with an even lower powered PX25 amp so I'd say unlikely to be a massive effect. Jerry's T-amp offer is sensible, a diffferent class of amp is needed to highlight any amp-speaker interactions should these be significant.

Re. Valves I am a bit OCD valve rolling and have rolled more 300b than I care to admit in SET, PSET, and PP amps. There are certainly differences but they are modest compared to speaker and room effects, they will flavour a well-functioning system, not cure a problem. If still keen you may be better off rolling the driver valves first as these often have a more pronounced effect, and are much cheaper and easier to sell on. If your valves are getting toward the end of their life then I'd expect a lifeless sound and weakening frequency extremes. That might sound shouty but lifeless doesn't seem like your system's problem?

Re. Servicing the amps, I'd get it done as a priority. I think I have read that (older) Audions run quite hot and towards the limit of component tolerances - maybe ne reason why they sound so good? A look over from someone like Graeme (Valvebloke on the Wam) or Mr Firebottle here could be prudent - there's a lot of expensive damage possible with a popped capacitor and your speakers (and house) deserve a bit of protection...boring but prudent. They will check over the valves at the same time so you know if there's a discernable problem there.

All very solid advice.

[sq225917]

Paul, well me for one, my mate kiteshop Dave and a couple of others I can mention. The point is, that despite what you think of them, other opinions exist, and the OP may hear what I, and others do. Certainly, he's unhappy at the minute so let's not try and push any viewpoint out of the equation.

[paulf-2007]

All very solid advice.
+ 1

[paulf-2007]

Paul, well me for one, my mate kiteshop Dave and a couple of others I can mention. The point is, that despite what you think of them, other opinions exist, and the OP may hear what I, and others do. Certainly, he's unhappy at the minute so let's not try and push any viewpoint out of the equation.
Fair point Simon.

[sq225917]

Little known Zu fact, their Superfly model was named after the Snowkite event that they used to sponsor each year. (We used to run the event).

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/51dd8a95e4b0ff2f7c9874ae/t/520fc7a0e4b0717200274809/1376765858871/OmenBookshelf-1b_103.jpg

[Pigmy Pony]

Wow, this is one steep learning curve! Thank you all so much for your kind offers of help, a real community spirit!

Jerry, your offer to loan me your Mini-T amp sounds like it would be worth a try, I didn't know such a thing existed, but it sounds like it would be so different from a SET amp, that it could show whether the problem was amp or speaker related.

I've never done a PM, but I'll have a go now.

[jandl100]

Wow, this is one steep learning curve! Thank you all so much for your kind offers of help, a real community spirit!

Jerry, your offer to loan me your Mini-T amp sounds like it would be worth a try, I didn't know such a thing existed, but it sounds like it would be so different from a SET amp, that it could show whether the problem was amp or speaker related.

I've never done a PM, but I'll have a go now.

PM received. :)
I'll post the wee beastie tomorrow.

I'd be interested in your views on the sound quality as well!

[Pigmy Pony]

I've had a few days using a Mini-T amp kindly loaned by Jandl100 (thanks Jerry).

After connecting it up, a bit fiddly as everything on the rear is so close together, my first impression was that the coarseness I was experiencing with the Audion was reduced somewhat (not completely gone, and I'm thinking this could be due to other factors suggested by others, such as speakers and/or room effects, and mains supply).

It looks likely that I have perhaps been pushing the 300b a bit hard. As a rule of thumb, I increase the volume until the cat leaves the room, then I know I've got it about right.

I couldn't believe so much could come out of such a tiny box! With the control at the 10 o'clock position thing on the shelves were buzzing a fair bit (sorry Jerry, I've turned it down to 9 o'clock now)

Short term plans now will be to (reluctantly) return the Mini-T, perhaps buy a better mains lead/plug (any suggestions?) and arrange for the amp to be checked over/serviced. Someone suggested Mr. Firebottle. In any case I'll need to know the Audion is working as it should, if I end up changing it for something else.

I'M going to have another couple of hours with this little gem and some "Random Access Memories", as the boss has gone off to the Bingo (wahay). I do hope she wins.

[jandl100]

As a rule of thumb, I increase the volume until the cat leaves the room, then I know I've got it about right.


:lol:

Steve - feel free to hang on to the Mini-T as long as you like. No rush to get it back as I can see its excellent capabilities are being appreciated. :)
Get yourself sorted first - maybe by buying yourself the latest Amptastic Mini-1. ;)

[Pigmy Pony]

Thanks Jerry, you're too kind! I will keep it a bit longer if that's ok, I have a friend visiting a week on Saturday, I've been raving about it to him and now he'll get a chance to hear it.

You must have read my mind re. the Mini-1. I've been researching it online, including a couple of reviews by your good self. The missus doesn't know it yet (still at bingo) but this needs to be in my Christmas stocking this year. Should fit in quite easily.

If its no better than the Mini-T, its still more than good enough.

[jandl100]

No problem, get yourself sorted then send it back. :)

btw - if you fancy playing with some different, moderately fancy power cables I can send a couple your way.

[RothwellAudio]

It is possible that the amp is being overdriven but you have very sensitive speakers so unless you're playing the music pretty loud I doubt that amp clipping is the issue. My gut instinct is that the speakers are the problem. Usually you can't get something for nothing and getting 101dB sensitivity comes at the cost of linearity in my experience. Also, full-range drivers are prone to being "shouty" in my experience.


I've had a similar issue with mids becoming shouty as volume is increased. I cured it by putting a soft covering on the 1st reflection points, a foot or two in front of the speakers at the sides of the room.

Yes, this is worth considering. I don't know what your home decor is like but sparse furnishing - and particularly bare wooden floors - can exacerbate any shoutiness in the system.

[jandl100]

It is possible that the amp is being overdriven but you have very sensitive speakers so unless you're playing the music pretty loud I doubt that amp clipping is the issue. My gut instinct is that the speakers are the problem. Usually you can't get something for nothing and getting 101dB sensitivity comes at the cost of linearity in my experience. Also, full-range drivers are prone to being "shouty" in my experience.

I tend to agree, unfortunately. Although your cat seems to think you may be overdriving things a little ;)

I've heard a couple of dems of Zu speakers, and to my ears whilst I appreciate the immediacy and clarity and speed, they do indeed get rather shouty when you turn the wick up.

A lot of folks don't mind that, though, or don't notice it or even seem to like it.
You seem to be borderline on the issue - so probably the way ahead is to smooth things out in the rest of your system as I appreciate that you want to keep the speakers.

Amps, cables, room reflections, room furnishings etc - all worth playing with.
I suspect you will be able to get a satisfactory sound with the Zus. :)

[Macca]

I thought the problem was distortion on female vocals? That isn't really the same as being a bit 'shouty', at least not in my book. I still think this is more of an amp problem than a speaker problem, although replacing the speakers with some 1970s low efficiency bexetrene diver jobbies might mask it a bit.

[jandl100]

From post #1 ...

Sound is ok at low volumes, but at moderate to high volumes becomes quite 'shouty' in the midrange, with female vocals suffering the most.

[Macca]

Aye, but I'd expect those speakers to be fine at 'moderate volume', at least.

I suppose it depends on what we call 'moderate' - to me that means just a bit more than background level.

[RothwellAudio]

I have no direct experience of those speakers but I did look them up to try to find out a bit about them. I found the website a bit too wordy (without actually saying much) so lost interest before getting to the nitty-gritty, but it wasn't clear if those drivers are full range or not. I suspect they're not full range in the Lowther sense of the word, ie a single cone with no crossover, but more like a Tannoy dual-concentric with a tweeter mounted at the center of the bass driver and operated with a conventional crossover. The frequency response of 30-25000 Hz suggests dual-concentric to me, so I'm starting to re-think the idea that the problem is "Lowther shoutyness".
I suppose the problem has to be the amp, the speakers or the room. I'd guess speakers or room before the amp, but that's just a guess. Maybe knowing a bit more about the room and at what volume the problem starts to appear would be a help.

[jandl100]

Zu speakers are usually single driver with a supplemental separately mounted 'super tweeter' which actually starts around 12KHz ... iirc.

So yes, Lowther Shout type of thing is the problem.

Yep. Here's the driver spec ...
2x Zu260FRD/G4, 10-1/3” full-range driver in Zu Def array covering 30—12,000 Hz
Zu APT-L2 tweeter assembly with stainless screen
http://audiocounsel.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/OmenDef1-A_Specs.pdf

https://www.stereophile.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/100211ZuOmen-600.jpg

[Macca]

As Jerry says they use twin full rangers, not dual-concentric. And there is pretty much no technical spec published, which is concerning. But I have used a number of full range speakers over the years (including Lowthers) and never had a problem with 'shoutiness'. It certainly isn't an inherent problem of full range drivers in general.

Perhaps what is needed is a complete re-think of the front end and the cabling, to try and maximise 'smoothness?'

Speakers that sound as rough as a badgers arse are pretty much non-existent, anytime you hear of any speaker that it is 'rough', 'shouty', 'bright', 'fatiguing' it is almost always down to the partnering equipment and not the transducer itself.

I mean after they have spent so much time and money developing the speaker, does the designer sit there and think 'Well, it sounds like a bag of spanners being knocked against a wall but screw it, we'll put it on the market anyway.'?

And before anyone write in, I'm not saying that has never happened, but if you took people's impressions at face value you'd think it happened all the time.

[struth]

As Jerry says they use twin full rangers, not dual-concentric. And there is pretty much no technical spec published, which is concerning. But I have used a number of full range speakers over the years (including Lowthers) and never had a problem with 'shoutiness'. It certainly isn't an inherent problem of full range drivers in general.

Perhaps what is needed is a complete re-think of the front end and the cabling, to try and maximise 'smoothness?'

Speakers that sound as rough as a badgers arse are pretty much non-existent, anytime you hear of any speaker that it is 'rough', 'shouty', 'bright', 'fatiguing' it is almost always down to the partnering equipment and not the transducer itself.

I mean after they have spent so much time and money developing the speaker, does the designer sit there and think 'Well, it sounds like a bag of spanners being knocked against a wall but screw it, we'll put it on the market anyway.'?

And before anyone write in, I'm not saying that has never happened, but if you took people's impressions at face value you'd think it happened all the time.


:rfl:

[RothwellAudio]

Speakers that sound as rough as a badgers arse are pretty much non-existent, anytime you hear of any speaker that it is 'rough', 'shouty', 'bright', 'fatiguing' it is almost always down to the partnering equipment and not the transducer itself.
It's interesting you should think that - I would argue the complete opposite. CD players, preamps, streamers, power amps etc. all have flat-as-feck frequency responses and they all boast low distortion. On the other hand, moving coil loudspeaker drivers suffer from cone break-up, resonances etc. and can't come close to the performance of the rest of the stuff - at least on paper.
Besides, if loudspeaker designers don't say "this sounds rough as a badger's arse but we'll sell it anyway", what makes you think that amplifier designers do?

[Macca]

It's interesting you should think that - I would argue the complete opposite. CD players, preamps, streamers, power amps etc. all have flat-as-feck frequency responses and they all boast low distortion. On the other hand, moving coil loudspeaker drivers suffer from cone break-up, resonances etc. and can't come close to the performance of the rest of the stuff - at least on paper.
Besides, if loudspeaker designers don't say "this sounds rough as a badger's arse but we'll sell it anyway", what makes you think that amplifier designers do?

Fair points, and I agree, but with five provisos:

1) some amps are designed to audibly distort
2) lots of people use amps beyond their capabilities, i.e running them in continuous clipping
3) Many active pre-amps are not very good at all
4) Some people use weird cables and interconnects that have all sorts of odd effects
5) There is a fashion now in digital to use DACs that add some distortion, and to add on more boxes that claim to do all sorts of wonders to the sound but in reality they just add some distortion.

Perm any combination of the above and the poor old speakers don't stand a chance

[montesquieu]

In my view, both amps and speakers are prone to Martin Luther style engineering, ie By Faith Alone. The fad (long running now) for single ended amps with no feedback is a case in point. Likewise similar fads for full-range and open baffle. Forget measurements, hear (or imagine you hear) the purity of the idea behind it. Complicated by the fact that in specific setups such amps and speakers can indeed be wonderfully musical and engaging - but there are always trade-offs.

My (admittedly fairly limited) experience with 'full range' (and I'd put the Zu's in that category since the supertweeter is essentially additional) is that they can be absolutely charming in undemanding scenarios (low volumes, simple music) but get raggedy when asked to go beyond their limits, which start to appear at lower levels than with many other speakers. So they can demo pretty nicely where the situation can be controlled, but might be far from ideal when you get them home in the real world. If it was easy to build 100+db speakers that did everything well, everybody would be doing it. It isn't, and they aren't.

Amplification can indeed be an issue though .. something with a higher damping factor than your typical single ended amp way well control those lightweight, potentially wayward cones for a bit longer.

[Macca]

On the money there, Tom. Always beware of these demos where they only play a bit of superbly produced plinky plonk or Diana Krall type programme. That sort of thing will sound impressive even through the Amstrad midi system your dad bought for £99.99 in Dixons back in 1985 with speakers that have the 'tweeters' just drawn onto the grilles with silver paint. It's no test of anything but with the odd exception it is all you hear played at shows. Fancy that.

[RothwellAudio]

...they can be absolutely charming in undemanding scenarios (low volumes, simple music) but get raggedy when asked to go beyond their limits...

...they only play a bit of superbly produced plinky plonk or Diana Krall type programme...
Absolutely agree. Certain music gets chosen for hi-fi demos because the system sounds great with it - but sounds awful with other music :lol:

[farflungstar]

On the money there, Tom. Always beware of these demos where they only play a bit of superbly produced plinky plonk or Diana Krall type programme. That sort of thing will sound impressive even through the Amstrad midi system your dad bought for £99.99 in Dixons back in 1985 with speakers that have the 'tweeters' just drawn onto the grilles with silver paint. It's no test of anything but with the odd exception it is all you hear played at shows. Fancy that.Not all Diana Krall is well produced, most yes but not all, and I very much doubt it would sound good on an amstrad lol. Quality of production varies from disk to disk - which means occasional disappointment. If the original poster is experiencing nastiness across the board then it's system - if it's only a proportion of albums it may be a more truthful rendition of crap production.

[struth]

Well good production discs are the ones you want to get best out of system. I listen to a lot of blues(old) and it doesnt matter how good your system is, its gonna sound crap... but its the content your after. way too much searching for perfection where it mostly isnt real. Ive heard plenty live music and its rarely great

[Macca]

Not all Diana Krall is well produced, most yes but not all, and I very much doubt it would sound good on an amstrad lol. Quality of production varies from disk to disk - which means occasional disappointment. If the original poster is experiencing nastiness across the board then it's system - if it's only a proportion of albums it may be a more truthful rendition of crap production.

I've only got one DK album and I've never made it all the way to the end. But I'll take your word for it.

There is one system that is always at the NW show with big horn speakers and valve amps. It costs about a million pounds and with a bit of string quartet or plinky it sounds quite impressive, almost like a live performance albeit with invisible musicians. Then someone got them to put on a bit of AOR , nothing that demanding, and it sounded like the main system had been switched off and a transistor radio between the speakers had been switched on. Just a tiny, fuzzy little ball of sound scrunched up in the middle between these huge horns.

Some bloke next to me says, 'Ooh that's a terrible recording.'

Yep, okay mate. You just carry on.

[Macca]

Well good production discs are the ones you want to get best out of system. I listen to a lot of blues(old) and it doesnt matter how good your system is, its gonna sound crap... but its the content your after. way too much searching for perfection where it mostly isnt real. Ive heard plenty live music and its rarely great

Very true. The real test is if the system can make sense of those old recordings. No system can turn them into glossy million pound productions, but it shouldn't make them unlistenable either. You own a hi-fi system to listen to music, not to assess production values. I think people can lose sight of that.

[farflungstar]

I've only got one DK album and I've never made it all the way to the end. But I'll take your word for it.

There is one system that is always at the NW show with big horn speakers and valve amps. It costs about a million pounds and with a bit of string quartet or plinky it sounds quite impressive, almost like a live performance albeit with invisible musicians. Then someone got them to put on a bit of AOR , nothing that demanding, and it sounded like the main system had been switched off and a transistor radio between the speakers had been switched on. Just a tiny, fuzzy little ball of sound scrunched up in the middle between these huge horns.

Some bloke next to me says, 'Ooh that's a terrible recording.'

Yep, okay mate. You just carry on.I don't want to take the thread off course so won't, but it would be interesting to know whether the problem he's suffering is across the board or with albums of a certain era or production.

I agree about demos at shows - but that's just logic. If the photo earlier in the thread is of the posters listening room I'd pay some attention to room damping.

The audions are about finesse, as are most sets unless coupled with something like an 845. They don't do heavy rock at realistic levels no matter how efficient the speaker - that's just not their thing.

[Macca]

I don't want to take the thread off course so won't, but it would be interesting to know whether the problem he's suffering is across the board or with albums of a certain era or production.

I agree about demos at shows - but that's just logic. If the photo earlier in the thread is of the posters listening room I'd pay some attention to room damping.

The audions are about finesse, as are most sets unless coupled with something like an 845. They don't do heavy rock at realistic levels no matter how efficient the speaker - that's just not their thing.

My point about the shows is that if the system cannot make sense of all types of music and recordings then it isn't fit for purpose. I'll except people who really do only listen to simple acoustic music, since they do exist, and want something specifically tailored to that sort of music, that plays to its strengths, and I get that.

But for anything else, especially with the price tag into six figures, if it can't make decent fist of Deep Purple, as well as Bill Evans Trio, then it's just fake hi-fi, not the real thing.

Regarding the room, if the distortion is coming from the equipment no amount of room treatment will sort the issue. Room treatment and moving the speakers about a bit (or sticking stuff in the ports or over the tweeters) seems to get recommended as a cure for all sorts of woes when it just isn't.

[struth]

My point about the shows is that if the system cannot make sense of all types of music and recordings then it isn't fit for purpose. I'll except people who really do only listen to simple acoustic music, since they do exist, and want something specifically tailored to that sort of music, that plays to its strengths, and I get that.

But for anything else, especially with the price tag into six figures, if it can't make decent fist of Deep Purple, as well as Bill Evans Trio, then it's just fake hi-fi, not the real thing.

Regarding the room, if the distortion is coming from the equipment no amount of room treatment will sort the issue. Room treatment and moving the speakers about a bit (or sticking stuff in the ports or over the tweeters) seems to get recommended as a cure for all sorts of woes when it just isn't.

dont really listen to hard rock etc so dont know how well mine does.
as for his speakers sounding harsh, well some can and do. sometimes moving them or changing the reflections can alther this, as can another type of amp. Trying a buffer can sometimes show up a mismatch as well. Ive seen cd players and dacs cause it too. dare say a poor phono stage could too

[farflungstar]

My point about the shows is that if the system cannot make sense of all types of music and recordings then it isn't fit for purpose. I'll except people who really do only listen to simple acoustic music, since they do exist, and want something specifically tailored to that sort of music, that plays to its strengths, and I get that.

But for anything else, especially with the price tag into six figures, if it can't make decent fist of Deep Purple, as well as Bill Evans Trio, then it's just fake hi-fi, not the real thing.

Regarding the room, if the distortion is coming from the equipment no amount of room treatment will sort the issue. Room treatment and moving the speakers about a bit (or sticking stuff in the ports or over the tweeters) seems to get recommended as a cure for all sorts of woes when it just isn't.I totally agree - I want my hifi to play all genres.

I thought the problem was the system sounded shouty? This can be attributed in part to room acoustics. Distortion no.

[RothwellAudio]

My point about the shows is that if the system cannot make sense of all types of music and recordings then it isn't fit for purpose...
...if it can't make decent fist of Deep Purple, as well as Bill Evans Trio, then it's just fake hi-fi, not the real thing.
I agree entirely.

Regarding the room, if the distortion is coming from the equipment no amount of room treatment will sort the issue. Room treatment and moving the speakers about a bit (or sticking stuff in the ports or over the tweeters) seems to get recommended as a cure for all sorts of woes when it just isn't.
I disagree entirely. Certainly harmonic distortion can't be produced by the room but nasty flutter echoes and resonances can produce an unpleasant listening experience similar to that produced by distortion.

[struth]

I also had a set of cables that did this in spades. took a while to find too.

[Macca]

I agree entirely.

I disagree entirely. Certainly harmonic distortion can't be produced by the room but nasty flutter echoes and resonances can produce an unpleasant listening experience similar to that produced by distortion.

When that happens it is pretty obvious it is the room to blame. Our hearing does not struggle to make that differentiation. The room has to be pretty bad before our hearing/brain fails to filter it out.

[struth]

When that happens it is pretty obvious it is the room to blame. Our hearing does not struggle to make that differentiation. The room has to be pretty bad before our hearing/brain fails to filter it out.

or inexperienced. if u have not really come across both enough to know which is which

[Dauntless]

I have heard ZU speakers only once, at Audio Counsel at Diggle in the picturesque part of Oldham:) These were driven by Audion valve amps and I don't remember which ZU model they were but they were very large with twin drivers and super tweeters. I thought the system was fairly ordinary. As far as I know ZU speakers use Eminence Drivers which they say they've modded to their specification. I remember reading a review on ZU speakers by Paul Messenger in the days of measurement. He couldn't find the 98db claimed and his findings were 92db and the frequency response was all over the place. I'm not sure Eminence intend their speakers to be used full range. Often the problem with full range speakers is very small X Max which doesn't help the bass response. The X Max is limited to help the higher frequency response and the efficiency like Lowther speakers. The best sounding fullish range driver I have heard is the latest BMR used by Cambridge Audio in their Aeromax speakers but I don't know how it measures. They run it down to 200HZ and it sounds smooth on top end. I myself would take much convincing to run ZU speakers.

[hifi_dave]

As I said back in post no.6, I did stock Zu for a short time, some years ago and whilst they were fast and fun, they were a bit coarse, edgy and coloured. Couple these to a 300B amp, possibly cranked up too far and you would get the results the OP complains of.

[Pigmy Pony]

Interesting times ahead for me, lots of things to address.

Firstly though, I'm not saying that I don't like the Audion, just that the sound quality at higher volumes made me think it could be faulty in some way. When I said its fine at low volumes, I probably meant "moderate". High volume to me is when Mrs Pony says things like "you need to get your hearing checked" or "I could hear that from the top of the street". And low volume I what I turn it to when I answer the phone.

I'm not writing off the Silver Night, in fact I would like to have it serviced/checked. Also I would like to try a better quality mains lead for it. Not sure about room treatments, I can experiment a little, but wouldn't be allowed anything permanent. Already quite a lot of absorbent things like carpets, and a big fabric sofa down one side (picture shown earlier not my room).

I have to face the real possibility that the speakers are the problem, but the thought of getting rid of these makes me feel a bit ill, so I want to do anything else I can first.

Maybe if I could find a good quality hearing aid, I could turn that up instead and give system an easier life!

I should also get out to some shows and bake-offs, (never been to one of those, but they sound like a good opportunity to meet enthusiasts rather than just sales people.

[RothwellAudio]

I remember reading a review on ZU speakers by Paul Messenger in the days of measurement. He couldn't find the 98db claimed and his findings were 92db and the frequency response was all over the place.
92dB is much closer to typical specs and not particularly efficient at all. That makes amp clipping seem a lot more likely.

As I said back in post no.6, I did stock Zu for a short time, some years ago and whilst they were fast and fun, they were a bit coarse, edgy and coloured. Couple these to a 300B amp, possibly cranked up too far and you would get the results the OP complains of.
Yes, I'm coming round to the idea that the problem is amp clipping.

High volume to me is when Mrs Pony says things like "you need to get your hearing checked" or "I could hear that from the top of the street".
Definitely sounds like amp clipping now.

Also I would like to try a better quality mains lead for it.
Complete waste of time if the amp is clipping.

[walpurgis]

My dog needs clipping! :D

[farflungstar]

As I've said SET is about finesse not balls - if you are playing it that loud then it's clipping. But if that is how you like your music then ditch the amp not the speakers.

[hifi_dave]

I'm not writing off the Silver Night, in fact I would like to have it serviced/checked. Also I would like to try a better quality mains lead for it. Not sure about room treatments, I can experiment a little, but wouldn't be allowed anything permanent. Already quite a lot of absorbent things like carpets, and a big fabric sofa down one side (picture shown earlier not my room).

Don't waste lots of money on a mains lead, at best it will make a slight difference but it won't cure the problems you are having.

[jandl100]

Absolutely.
Sort the amp.

[Haselsh1]

As I've said SET is about finesse not balls - if you are playing it that loud then it's clipping. But if that is how you like your music then ditch the amp not the speakers.

Yep, I really do have to agree. Finesse and relaxation was the key to my 300B system back in 2004. With these amplifiers there really is no option to play it loud; you have the wrong amp.

[jandl100]

Get a more powerful amp, Steve - and then you'll be hearing why you bought the ZUs in the first place. :)

[Haselsh1]

Get a more powerful amp, Steve - and then you'll be hearing why you bought the ZUs in the first place. :)

:thumbsup:

[montesquieu]

Get a more powerful amp, Steve - and then you'll be hearing why you bought the ZUs in the first place. :)

Something push-pull, I would suggest .. a nice EL34 amp should get them singing and keep the cones under control at volume.

[paulf-2007]

I tend to agree, unfortunately. Although your cat seems to think you may be overdriving things a little ;)

I've heard a couple of dems of Zu speakers, and to my ears whilst I appreciate the immediacy and clarity and speed, they do indeed get rather shouty when you turn the wick up.

A lot of folks don't mind that, though, or don't notice it or even seem to like it.
You seem to be borderline on the issue - so probably the way ahead is to smooth things out in the rest of your system as I appreciate that you want to keep the speakers.

Amps, cables, room reflections, room furnishings etc - all worth playing with.
I suspect you will be able to get a satisfactory sound with the Zus. :)
I listen to my zu omen at between 80-90db but as the room is only 7' x 9' and well treated I doubt I am pushing them enough to be shouty. I don't get any shout from lowther DX45 6" drivers, but maybe for the same reason.

[jandl100]

Steve - I've just replied to your PM. :)

[Lawrence001]

One more point, I've got a Yaqin Phono stage, the cheap Chinese stock tubes aren't much cop, have you changed them?

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[Intenso]

One more point, I've got a Yaqin Phono stage, the cheap Chinese stock tubes aren't much cop, have you changed them?

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Which Yaqin stage have you got?

If its the MS-23B have you considered modding it to a Lesbox.

It makes a huge difference to this stage....

[Lawrence001]

Which Yaqin stage have you got?

If its the MS-23B have you considered modding it to a Lesbox.

It makes a huge difference to this stage....Dunno, I used vinyl a few times a year to loosen up the bearing, all digital now!

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[Intenso]

Dunno, I used vinyl a few times a year to loosen up the bearing, all digital now!

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Gr8 post that really cheered me up this morning :lol:

[Pigmy Pony]

One more point, I've got a Yaqin Phono stage, the cheap Chinese stock tubes aren't much cop, have you changed them?

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Hi Lawrence,

I'm still using the supplied tubes, never really gave it a thought. Any recommendations would be welcomed.

[Lawrence001]

Hi Lawrence,

I'm still using the supplied tubes, never really gave it a thought. Any recommendations would be welcomed.I assume they are 12ax7 like mine, it will say on the valves or in the instructions. I used Sovteks with some success, although some smooth NOS like Mullard might be just the case in this situation (I think Mullard 12ax7s are still relatively cheap though I may be wrong on this as prices always seem to be going up with demand). There is so much info on these valves online, they are one of the most common pre amp types. I was just speaking to a member who might be able to help you, I'll mention it.