View Full Version : Heybrook TT2 w. RB300 -- cartridge recommendations
Hello All,
As I mentioned in my Welcome post, I have recently purchased a Heybrook TT2 turntable. From my browsing through the Heybrook threads here, it seems to be a later model with cast aluminum subchassis, external TPS unit, and a laminated birch arm board that reaches not quite to the front of the table. It has a Rega RB300 arm with tungsten CW. The arm wires and cables seem to have been upgraded – there is what looks like Belden silver cable exiting the bottom of the arm shaft and going straight to some decent looking RCA plugs. There was a non-functioning Rega Elys cart on it, which has been tossed.
Overall it’s a little bit of a fixer-upper – in decent shape, but needs some cosmetic touch up of the black stain on the wood veneer (not sure how I’m going to make that bit look good again), and the external power supply is not giving any juice to the motor – there’s power into the TPS, but none coming out. It’s presently with the tech getting that fixed and the suspension tweaked. As it happens, the former Canadian importer of Heybrook is about a half hour drive from my house – Audio One in Toronto. Handy! So it’s in the right hands for servicing.
Well, I have a mental list of about a dozen questions about this deck, but I want to start with what is a good cartridge match for this table and arm combo? From what I’ve read here and elsewhere, the RB300 seems to be a good fit for the Heybrook....am I right in assuming that the arm is a keeper? If the affirmative, then I would like to stick with a MM cart for it, and have whittled my short list down to three brands and a few possible models from each that seem to be a good compliance match:
+ Grado Prestige Gold or Reference Platinum
+ Ortofon 2M Blue or Bronze
+ Goldring 1000 or 2000 series (there are so many submodels in these lines, I don’t know which to choose)
My sound character tastes make me lean toward the Grados for their reportedly warmer, more mellow sound. But not having heard one on a deck like this (suspended vs. unsuspended belt or DD), is the TT2 going to mellow out a Grado even more and be too much of a good thing? (FYI, I have never owned a suspended deck, only DD). Also, I have read that Grados will hum on a Heybrook – has anyone experienced this? Is there a fix?
I have listened to the Ortofons, but on modern unsuspended Pro-Ject decks, and they sounded rather analytical and forward to my ear, but certainly extremely detailed and lots of drive and pace. To be fair, I can't say how much of that character was due to the TT, the electronics, or the speakers (this was at a dealer showroom). So...would one of these actually work well on the Heybrook? Perhaps the TT2 mellowing out that characteristic? A nice balance, in other words?
Re. Goldring, there really is little written about them, other than the 2000's have a similar character to the 2M series, only better according to some. Anyone with any experience with the 1000's or 2000's on a TT2, please share your thoughts.
Many thanks in advance for the insight.
Best regards,
Svend
Zoidburg
20-10-2017, 07:26
I had a Goldring 2500 cart on a rega arm which I thought worked well together bit I never compared it directly to anything else. I was very happy with it and had no plans to change until my wife "dusted" it a little too vigorously resulting in a knackered cantilever. I've still got the body in a box somewhere though (the cart not the wife:D).
I have owned a TT2 since the mid 80's and upgraded with the TPS when that came out. Shane who designed the TT2 does post here and he mentioned that the TPS did come with a component that is difficult to replace if that component breaks but could be easily converted to a non TPS version. The post will be in this forum somewhere. Mine has worked fine since I had it but I recall it did have a pulley change when the TPS was installed so reverting to a non TPS version may require a revised pulley.
I currently rate the TT2 as my best deck but only after installing a Zeta and fixing an armboard issue where I had to fabricate a replacement. Not sure of the reason but I have found the TT to be a bit picky with phono stages with regard to hum. I get some mild hum when I connect to my Kinshaw Perception Phono stage but it is quiet when connected to my Nakamichi CA5E. I also had a problem a few years ago with connecting to a Cambridge Audio phono when I had a Linn Basik Plus on the deck.
Cant help you with the cartridge choice for the Rega arm but am happily using an Ortofon MC10 supreme on my Zeta.
as for wood stain I found this works very well for black ash etc. put on with a cloth usually. Liberon SDE1L 1L Spirit Wood Dye - Ebony
I had a Goldring 2500 cart on a rega arm which I thought worked well together bit I never compared it directly to anything else. I was very happy with it and had no plans to change until my wife "dusted" it a little too vigorously resulting in a knackered cantilever. I've still got the body in a box somewhere though (the cart not the wife:D).
First glance at that and I thought "This guy needs to lower his caffeine intake!" So what did you replace the 2500 with? Was it not so much to your liking that it wasn't worth just putting on a new stylus?
Clive -- I'm sure hoping the TPS isn't fubar. The shop guys seemed to think it was a couple of resistors that were known to blow on occasion - simple fix if that's what it is (cross fingers). Zeta -- nice arm! What did your TT2 have on it before the swap? In the long run, I am not averse to replacing the arm with something better, but really want to hear how the RB300 works before I make that call. That said, other TT2 owners here in Canada are liking the Jelco 750 as a good upgrade to the RB300, and it's available for sensible money here too. But one thing at a time...cartridge first and proper setup of the table and live with it for a while.
Grant -- good tip on the stain. I was thinking along the same lines - a penetrating stain of some kind. The chipped edges of the old finish will have to be smoothed out somehow - I will try some 600 grit emery paper to see if that does it.
Cheers,
Svend
Svend - I have a load of turntables - its a hobby. The deck came with a Linn Basik Plus which was ok but I switched to a Manticore Musician a few years ago which was good on the deck. I originally got the Zeta to install on a Systemdek Transcription but was not entirely happy with that combo so had a go on the TT2 and have been delighted with the result. I think it is the synergy thing where deck, arm and cartridge just work well together to give a quality of sound I like.
Zoidburg
21-10-2017, 07:49
First glance at that and I thought "This guy needs to lower his caffeine intake!" So what did you replace the 2500 with? Was it not so much to your liking that it wasn't worth just putting on a new stylus?
Clive -- I'm sure hoping the TPS isn't fubar. The shop guys seemed to think it was a couple of resistors that were known to blow on occasion - simple fix if that's what it is (cross fingers). Zeta -- nice arm! What did your TT2 have on it before the swap? In the long run, I am not averse to replacing the arm with something better, but really want to hear how the RB300 works before I make that call. That said, other TT2 owners here in Canada are liking the Jelco 750 as a good upgrade to the RB300, and it's available for sensible money here too. But one thing at a time...cartridge first and proper setup of the table and live with it for a while.
Grant -- good tip on the stain. I was thinking along the same lines - a penetrating stain of some kind. The chipped edges of the old finish will have to be smoothed out somehow - I will try some 600 grit emery paper to see if that does it.
Cheers,
SvendI replaced it for a while with an ortofon 2m black but I didn't get on with it. That was replaced with an at150 mlx which seems to be very similar the th black but was far less hassle to set up and just goes about its job stress free day in day out. I've no plans to change it apart from wanting to try an AT mc at some point.
Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk
Rothchild
21-10-2017, 09:25
Denon D110 plays nice with my RB300 (on a systemdek, which is very similar to the heybrook as far as I can tell).
Clive -- makes sense. These sorts of things are usually a work-in-progress for months or years until you hit on a combo that works. I expect it might be the same with this TT2...we shall see how it goes. First thing is to get it running and get a half-decent cartridge on it. Next step then is a proper phono stage (a topic for another thread). Maybe I'll get lucky and get great sound right out of the blocks...unlikely, but then I'm not a super-critical listener and can live with small imperfections... :)
Ben -- interesting that you found the 2M Black fussy to set up, but not the AT150. I had heard the opposite. A few AT's were on my short list actually, but I got turned off by all the reports of those with the microline stylus being hyper-sensitive to VTA, azimuth, etc., and therefore sounding great on one record but lousy on another just 'cause it was a hair thicker. Thanks for the insight -- that's good to know, and I may have to reconsider the AT line. The new VM740ML looks interesting actually, and the compliance values of the whole AT MM line seem to me to be rather versatile in that they will work with my present RB300 and are more likely to also work if I swap arms to a slightly higher mass one.
Marc -- I had overlooked the Denons, thinking that they were all really low compliance therefore not a good match for the light Rega arm. Maybe that was just the DL103...not sure...will have to check into that again. Thanks!
On that note, this whole compliance thing sure is confusing. Some makers publish dynamic values; others static; some both; others still rate them at different frequencies :scratch: Gives me a headache trying to sort it out and make an informed choice.
Further to compliance, how important is it to have a cart fit into the 8 to 12 value range? If a cart is just outside the range, say 7.9 or 12.2, am I actually going to hear any problems?
Best,
Svend
Minstrel SE
22-10-2017, 00:57
Supposed to be a bit of alright the TT2. It used to get big recommendations in Hi Fi Answers :)
Hi Svend, sounds like you’ve got a good’un there! I’m not going to make any specific recommendations for arms or cartridges as so much depends on personal taste, and I haven’t listened to most of the options available today anyway. Having said that, there are certain combinations that are known to work well, particularly arms. from new, about 70% of TT2s left the factory fitted with Linn arm boards, 20% Rega and the rest either SME or blank, and by far the most popular arm was the Linn Basic+, but this is more a reflection of the fact that most Heybrook dealers were also Linn and Rega dealers and it was the path of least resistance! I was never fond of the Linn arms, and whilst the cast alloy Regas were an astonishing engineering achievement, they always sounded slightly flat and dull, although many love them. In recent years the world has begun to adopt a more balanced view as regards flat earth products v the rest, and the arms that now seem to be favourite choices for the TT2 are the Mission 774 (the John Bicht one, not the cheap Japanese one), the Alphasons, particularly the HR100s, various flavours of Jelco and the Formula IV unipivot. Zetas, Mission Mechanics and Heyook arms made by Zeta are brilliant but rare as hens teeth and expensive. If you come across a Heybrook arm made by Helius, avoid! It was dreadful.
Any others? The original S-shaped Rega R200 is a lovely thing. Most have suffered from degeneration of the bias belt and replacement is challenging, but it can be done and they’re cheap as a result. Ant on Audio-Talk has just composed a very well written thread on repairing one. I’d also love to see an Ortofon 212 on a TT2 but new ones cost thousands and old ones just don’t seem to come up for sale.
The TPS and the alloy chassis were the only significant developments in the life of the TT2. The TPS is rare and contains a chip which is prone to failure and unobtainable. Conversion back to non-TPS spec is reasonably simple if you can get a standard pulley (I may have one knocking around in the shed somewhere), but it would be a shame to lose the undoubted benefits. Similar units such as the Heed do the same job just as well, or you could DIY one. Forums like Audio-Talk or diyaudio will have suggestions.
I’ve deliberately avoided mentioning cartridges, as I’m simply not familiar with any of the modern contenders. Suffice it to say I’m a big Denon fan.
For myself, I ran an ally chassis TT2 with a Rega RB300 and Denon 103D through the 80s. The 103D then gave way to a 304, and the Rega to a Mayware Formula IV, both big improvements. I then got involved with idlers and gave my TT2 to my Nephew, but then a few years ago an immaculate steel chassis version from the very first batch of 100 turntables popped up on eBay with a Mission 774. How could a resist? The ally chassis is a bit more refined and tonally accurate, but the steel chassis version zips and bounces through the Music delightfully. I’ve gone back to a Denon 103, and I love it. Those earliest TT2s are closest to what I was trying to achieve when I started fooling around with bits of steel and old motors in my bedroom in 1976.
walpurgis
22-10-2017, 10:04
A Mission 774 should work nicely on a TT2. Not a combination I've tried, but the Mission seems to work well on sprung sub-chassis turntables. Excellent tonearm.
Geoff -- I don't recall seeing any Mission arms for sale here, but then they haven't been on my radar. I will poke around a bit and see what there is, now that I know to look for them. Thanks for the recommendation!
Shane -- thank you very much for the thorough and insightful reply! Very good of you to take the time. You really cleared up a few things for me wrt. tonearms, etc.
...whilst the cast alloy Regas were an astonishing engineering achievement, they always sounded slightly flat and dull...
Interesting and very helpful comment. This makes me think that a more lively, forward cartridge like the Ortofon 2M series or Goldring 2000's would perhaps be the best match. Worth a try to see if I can get the arm to sound it's best. If not, then it would be time to swap it for another.
On that note, your suggestions are well taken. The Jelco name keeps popping up in connection with the Heybrook, and they are easy to come by here and reasonably priced. The others, Mission (see comment to Geoff, above), Zeta, etc., are perhaps harder to find. But again, I have not had those names in mind when browsing the for sale ads here.
...The original S-shaped Rega R200 is a lovely thing...
This might be a great option, as there regularly are older Rega P2's (original wood trim versions) for sale here for low prices, and most still have the RB200 arm. You've given me the seeds of an idea here: buy said P2/RB200, swap arms with the Heybrook, and tweak the P2 with a few mods from OL, Groovetracer or the like, and use it in the basement system or give it to one of my daughters (who LOVE listening to vinyl :)). Whaddya think? If I go this route, what should I look for to test the arm for wear and tear? Are there any tell-tales to watch out for? Looseness/play in certain areas? Any insight would be most appreciated.
As for the Ortofon arm, I seem to recall that there was a Telefunken deck with a high quality Ortofon arm on it -- I will look into that and see if it's the same one you're referring to... One sees Telefunken decks on sale here occasionally, basically selling for peanuts.
At some point soon I will most certainly have further questions re. the TT2, but I will save those for when I get it back from the shop and it's actually running. Fine tuning stuff mostly...
Thanks again, and regards,
Svend
Rothchild
22-10-2017, 17:39
Marc -- I had overlooked the Denons, thinking that they were all really low compliance therefore not a good match for the light Rega arm. Maybe that was just the DL103...not sure...will have to check into that again. Thanks!
On that note, this whole compliance thing sure is confusing. Some makers publish dynamic values; others static; some both; others still rate them at different frequencies :scratch: Gives me a headache trying to sort it out and make an informed choice.
Further to compliance, how important is it to have a cart fit into the 8 to 12 value range? If a cart is just outside the range, say 7.9 or 12.2, am I actually going to hear any problems?
Best,
Svend
I was under the impression that the RB300 was considered 'medium mass' rather than lightweight?
walpurgis
22-10-2017, 18:14
I'd keep away from the Rega R200 arm. This is what I found inside mine.
http://i67.tinypic.com/30a9p2r.jpg
A rotted bias belt. There are no suppliers for these anymore, as far as I'm aware.
I bought one of the last that were offered on ebay.
.
walpurgis
22-10-2017, 18:27
I was under the impression that the RB300 was considered 'medium mass' rather than lightweight?
It is. Works OK with Denons. Not that I'm keen on Rega arms.
This might be a great option, as there regularly are older Rega P2's (original wood trim versions) for sale here for low prices, and most still have the RB200 arm. You've given me the seeds of an idea here: buy said P2/RB200, swap arms with the Heybrook, and tweak the P2 with a few mods from OL, Groovetracer or the like, and use it in the basement system or give it to one of my daughters (who LOVE listening to vinyl :)). Whaddya think? If I go this route, what should I look for to test the arm for wear and tear? Are there any tell-tales to watch out for? Looseness/play in certain areas? Any insight would be most appreciated.
Svend
Sounds like a plan! Beceause of the belt rot problem mentioned they sell fairly cheaply and they’re petty robust otherwise. This link to a thread showing how to repair:
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=7078
This might be a great option, as there regularly are older Rega P2's (original wood trim versions) for sale here for low prices, and most still have the RB200 arm. You've given me the seeds of an idea here: buy said P2/RB200, swap arms with the Heybrook, and tweak the P2 with a few mods from OL, Groovetracer or the like, and use it in the basement system or give it to one of my daughters (who LOVE listening to vinyl :)). Whaddya think? If I go this route, what should I look for to test the arm for wear and tear? Are there any tell-tales to watch out for? Looseness/play in certain areas? Any insight would be most appreciated.
Svend
Sounds like a plan! Beceause of the belt rot problem mentioned they sell fairly cheaply and they’re petty robust otherwise. This link to a thread showing how to repair:
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=7078
walpurgis
22-10-2017, 19:02
Sounds like a plan! Beceause of the belt rot problem mentioned they sell fairly cheaply and they’re petty robust otherwise. This link to a thread showing how to repair:
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=7078
As I said. The belts are unavailable as far as I'm aware. Yes, I have looked on ebay and Googled to see if there are any current sources.
Idlewithnodrive
22-10-2017, 19:25
I believe that Jonny (J7) at Audio Origami can repair the bias mech on the R200 at a very reasonable cost.
Being J7, you can guarantee it will be an excellent job too.
Voila!
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 142539204698
A bit pricey for what it is, but not for what it does.
I was under the impression that the RB300 was considered 'medium mass' rather than lightweight?
Light-ish? :) I was of the impression that at 11.5g eff. mass, this was on the light side(?). Seems that might be a bit off then. Lighter side of medium then? :) Thanks for sorting that out.
Gents, thanks for the head's-up on the R200, and to Shane for the links. Very helpful! There's an original P2 with R200 arm for sale near me for reasonable money (C$250) -- I might go check it out once I'm back home from this latest business trip.
Re. arm swap, it seems that a direct swap is possible -- as far as I can glean from a quick search, the mounting point for R200 and RB300 are the same, so no further mods to the Heybrook should be needed. Nice!
Shane -- that Audio-Talk thread is a good one. It's possible that I will rewire the R200 if I get it, so that's all described there. Another post on Vinyl Engine describes how to check for a broken bias belt on this arm while it's still on the table, so at least I will know how to test that bit. :) But good to know the belts are available if needed, and your ebay seller will ship worldwide.
On the subject of inspecting a used arm, is there anything else I should look for wrt. bearings, play/looseness anywhere? I suppose this question applies to any older used tonearm, not just the R200.
Thanks,
Svend
walpurgis
22-10-2017, 22:49
All very well, but to be honest, for a 'universal' type Japanese arm at around the same money, I'd buy a Linn Basik LV-V every time. I sold the R200 and still have my LV-V. It's well built and trouble free.
Oh. And if you do rebuild an R200 anti-skate assembly. The job is a pain. You need the right tools (which fortunately I have). The bearings shed their balls from the races as you disassemble the stem and you need to catch them all (and put them back on reassembly). The plastic anti-skate helix mech will misalign many times before you get it right and the ebay kit with the tensioning spacer is a compromise. The belt spacer (required because the belt is the wrong size) adds a lot of drag, causing bias adjustment to need more force than originally and it imparts a nasty 'rubbing' feel to operation.
The R200 is a waste of time!!
Jeez Geoff, just when I was getting all wound up to get a nice R200... :) Actually I appreciate the insight. Better to hear this now than curse the darn thing later when a wee ball bearing flies off into a dark corner of the workshop never to be seen again. :steam: My whiskey budget just started looking better knowing I may not have to fiddle with an arm rebuild like that.
Seems like there are lots of other good arm options for the Heybrook, so no rush to go chasing after something. And now that I sit back and think about this (sanity check), I would really like to hear what the RB300 can do with a good cartridge...something with some drive and punch. My gut feeling tells me that something from the Goldring 2000 or Ortofon 2M series might work quite OK here. And there are pages and pages of mods and tweaks written about the Rega arms. Some of these are likely to be dead ends in the search for real (vs. imagined) improvement in sound quality, but some might be well worth a little time and expense. We'll see... I will have to choose carefully, otherwise the comment at the end of the previous paragraph may prove to be rather the opposite.
Regards, and thanks for the insight.
Svend
The R200 is a waste of time!!
One man’s meat is another man’s poison! Here you see the eternal dilemma of the hifi forum. To some the R200’s a bargain that just needs a little effort to sing like a bird, to others it’s a waste of time and an impossible challenge that’s not worth the effort. In the end, only you can decide.
One other point about the R200, it doesn’t have any facility for VTA adjustment so you need a selection of spacers to set it up, which is a bit of a pain, but once you’ve got it right it stays that way, unlike some. Also, you’re correct about it being a direct swap for the RB300. The geometry is the same.
OK, I’ll stop banging on about arms now. In your original post you mentioned that the turntable’s away having its suspension tweaked. I’m curious, what did it need? The TT2 suspension system is pretty straightforward and robust so there isn’t much to tweak unless the the rubber mounts are perished (which I’ve only ever seen once!) in which case there’s not a lot you can do as they’re the only parts other than the platter that couldn’t be knocked up by a competent workshop, and spares are unobtainable.
lastly, photos. We need photos!
One man’s meat is another man’s poison! Here you see the eternal dilemma of the hifi forum. To some the R200’s a bargain that just needs a little effort to sing like a bird, to others it’s a waste of time and an impossible challenge that’s not worth the effort. In the end, only you can decide.
I will read that Audio-Times thread more closely and see what's involved. I'm reasonably handy with tools, and have done some complex brute jobs (e.g. cylinder head on an '85 Saab 900) and some finer work too (numerous vintage camera lenses with leaf shutters). Compared to the latter, the R200 will probably be a cake walk.
As for VTA, spacers are easy to come by, and a perfectly good option for me -- no real need for a VTA-on-the-fly-arm as I'm more of a "set it and forget it" type, so once the cart is on and set up right I ain't touching it.
Re. the suspension -- sorry, I probably used the wrong wording. I meant the shop will adjust the suspension springs to give the right bounce. Nothing more needs to be done -- no mods or repairs; all is intact and in good shape, as far as I can tell. Not sure if they will tackle the tonearm wire attachment pattern or not, as I understand that is somewhat important. I'm sure they will check it, but I will ask anyway....
On that topic, at some point I may add some RCA jacks to the back panel so that I can play around with different RCA cables. Not sure yet...will wait to hear how the present cables sound, then decide.
And finally, here are your pictures... Not the best, just what I pulled off my mobile from a few weeks ago while the deck was sitting on my workbench. I will take some more once I get it back from the shop.
2167021669
Cheers,
Svend
Sounds like the job will be well within your compass, and if you don’t like the result it should then at least be worth more than you paid for it!
Seeing the photos reminded me that the TPS version had no power switch. On standard versions this was located on the right hand side of the nameplate in front of the arm board. That will make it a little trickier should your TPS not be reparable, but hopefully all will be well. The TPS was introduced some years after I left the company so I’m not that familiar with it.
By the way, I can see how this refurbing of old turntables can quickly become a real hobby. I discovered a rather sad looking Dual 1010 idler drive in my Mother's basement this weekend, which upon closer inspection looks salvageable. I've no idea whether this model is even worth it (arm looks pretty cheap and tinny), but my first reaction was "Brilliant! An old Dual to that needs some TLC and a good home!". Must resist such urges in future :) or else the house will soon be filled with decks.
Svend
walpurgis
23-10-2017, 20:59
The idler Duals are pretty good and the 1010 should be well worth reviving.
Sounds like the job will be well within your compass, and if you don’t like the result it should then at least be worth more than you paid for it!
Seeing the photos reminded me that the TPS version had no power switch. On standard versions this was located on the right hand side of the nameplate in front of the arm board. That will make it a little trickier should your TPS not be reparable, but hopefully all will be well. The TPS was introduced some years after I left the company so I’m not that familiar with it.
Yeah, that's kind of what I am thinking re. the R200. Might be worth a stab at it. Worst case, I'll have a perfectly usable Planar 2 for one of my daughters with either a refurbed R200 or the RB300 arm. With a couple of the more sensible aftermarket mods for this, it should make quite nice music for an entry level system. Just the thing for a young person's apartment.
Re. the TPS, I haven't heard back from the tech as to present status. Not sure if no news is good news, or the converse. All this waiting is making me antsy. I will let you know once I hear...
As for my original question about cartridges, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of having an arm with a removable headshell. Lets me play around with a couple of different carts to see what sounds best. As my preamp is switch-able between MM and MC, this is a snap to do.
Best,
Svend
The idler Duals are pretty good and the 1010 should be well worth reviving.
Hey! Great news Geoff. Thanks for the insight. I will take a closer look at it, but all bits seem to be there, incl. the funny cartridge mounting bracket. I wonder if the arm is easily swappable with another? Looks like major surgery might be needed for that. BTW, there is a fellow near me (close to London, Ontario) who refurbishes only vintage Duals, and loves working on the idler drives. He charges only C$200 to re-'n-re most any Dual, even in non-working condition. It would be well worth bringing it to him.
Cheers,
Svend
freefallrob
23-10-2017, 21:17
The Dual 1010 was my first turntable, it sounded great, I knew it but I didn't know it if you know what I mean, my Dad bought me a Tandy/Realistic badged Shure cartridge for it, happy days!
Re the Heybrook TT2, they are also a lovely TT, wish I still had it, but it's being very well looked after in it's new home. For a cartridge to suit the RB300 i'd go for a Rega Exact, it's VERY good and very over looked.
walpurgis
23-10-2017, 21:18
I'm reasonably handy with tools, and have done some complex brute jobs (e.g. cylinder head on an '85 Saab 900) and some finer work too (numerous vintage camera lenses with leaf shutters)
Me too. Rebuilt quite a few engines. But, I took an internally dusty 50mm f1.4 (Zeiss) Practika lens apart and made the mistake of assuming the iris leaves were metal and wiped them with a quick drying spirit cleaner. Turned out they were plastic, so partly dissoved and bonded together. Result, dead lens! Good job it wasn't an expensive one.
walpurgis
23-10-2017, 21:23
Hey! Great news Geoff. Thanks for the insight. I will take a closer look at it, but all bits seem to be there, incl. the funny cartridge mounting bracket. I wonder if the arm is easily swappable with another? Looks like major surgery might be needed for that. BTW, there is a fellow near me (close to London, Ontario) who refurbishes only vintage Duals, and loves working on the idler drives. He charges only C$200 to re-n-re most any Dual, even in non-working condition. It would be well worth bringing it to him.
Cheers,
Svend
The arm is good, despite its old fashioned looks, use it. I've seen them with decent MC cartridges in. You are lucky to have the cartridge carrier, they are often missing and a bit scarce.
Rob, Geoff -- sounds like the Dual is a nice find! Thanks for your feedback. The arm looks really light, so I'm thinking that a high compliance cart like a Shure might work very well. I have an M-111HE with a new stylus (N97XE) that's sitting at the end of a heavy-ish arm on an old Technics DD deck (a cheap one, not a 1200 or the like)....it's a nice cartridge, but a bit of a mismatch for the arm I think. A move to the Dual might be just the thing.
My Mother is happy to let me have it. She listens to a Kenwood KD-2055 deck with an Empire 4000XL III cartridge -- sounds really rather good, I must say. She won't miss the Dual, as it's been sitting unused in the basement for decades.
Regards,
Svend
Me too. Rebuilt quite a few engines. But, I took an internally dusty 50mm f1.4 (Zeiss) Practika lens apart and made the mistake of assuming the iris leaves were metal and wiped them with a quick drying spirit cleaner. Turned out they were plastic, so partly dissoved and bonded together. Result, dead lens! Good job it wasn't an expensive one.
Ouch! I'm sure the air was blue after that little discovery. I did the same with the little red film winding window on the back of a 1950's Agfa folding medium format camera (made before the invention of film counting numbers on 120 roll film cameras) -- I touched it with some lighter fluid solvent and the plastic instantly blistered. It's barely usable now. Shame, as the lens in that camera is a beaut! But it's not much good if you can't see the film frame numbers. :doh:
The Dual 1010 was my first turntable, it sounded great, I knew it but I didn't know it if you know what I mean, my Dad bought me a Tandy/Realistic badged Shure cartridge for it, happy days!
Re the Heybrook TT2, they are also a lovely TT, wish I still had it, but it's being very well looked after in it's new home. For a cartridge to suit the RB300 i'd go for a Rega Exact, it's VERY good and very over looked.
Rob, thanks for the recommendation of the Exact. I had never really considered it, to be honest. I will take a closer look at it now that you've suggested it. I recall some audio mag reviewers (might have been TAS) really liking it over the Elys. Some shops will give credit for old Rega carts as trade in, so I might be lucky and get a few bucks for the clapped out Elys that came with the Heybrook.
Cheers,
Svend
walpurgis
24-10-2017, 09:09
The Denon DL-110 high output moving coil cartridge is good value and works directly into MM inputs. It will work OK on a Rega arm.
If you spend a bit more, the Goldring Eroica LX low output MC sounds remarkable for its price and will also suit Regas, it will need an MC stage or SUT though. There is also a high out put version of this, which I've not tried, but is reputed to be very nice.
freefallrob
24-10-2017, 09:46
the Goldring Eroica LX low output MC sounds remarkable for its price
Yes I have first hand experience of this combination TT2/RB300/Eroica LX LO, it's very good indeed and like Geoff says, it's also perfect match for the arm.
walpurgis
24-10-2017, 09:52
The Goldrings also have the benefit of excellent back-up service from their UK manufacturer.
Geoff, Rob -- thanks for the recommendation of the Goldring and Denon. Both my preamps have MC capability (Sugden C28 and Sony TA-E86B), although the Sony's line section is modded to work as a passive device. I've been playing an el cheapo Technics DD table through the MM section of the Sony, just to see how it works, and it definitely needs more gain...but that's the subject for another thread (coming soon... :)). If I end up with an arm on the Heybrook with a removable headshell, then I would love to have both a good MM and a MC to play with. Goldrings happen to be on sale at a Canadian distributor at the moment, and the Eroica LX is on for a very reasonable price. I had my eye on one of the 2000 series MM models - what few user reviews there are, are all very positive about the whole range. Apparently the 2000's are made by Nagaoka, whereas the 1000 series is made in-house in the UK. All have great sound quality, apparently.
As sad as this seems, I have never heard an MC cartridge. I guess I don't know what I'm missing, eh? I think it's time to get me to some shops and have a listen. :)
Regards,
Svend
Not sure if this tells you anything, but I bought my first MC cartridge, an Ortofon MC20, in about 1975 and haven’t owned a MM since. If you go down the R200 or Jelco route it would be a shame not to dip your toe into the Denon DL103 pond, although the Rega would then benefit from a stiffer headshell than the standard one.
Hi Shane,
I think this is one of those things where I will just have to find out for myself and try good examples of both to see what suits our taste and gear the best. There are so many differing opinions out there re. MM vs. MC, both sides of which make very convincing arguments, that deciding one way or the other won't be possible without just biting the bullet and buying one of each :). If one ends up not to our taste, then it won't be left to collect dust -- at some point soon there will be four turntables in the family...two in our house, and one each in our daughters' apartments. Any cartridge purchased will certainly be put to good use, and someone will end up with a very nice moving coil. The trick will be to find one that will work well with most arms.
As for the DL-103, yes, that one would be up there as a top choice. One hears so often that it's a great cartridge, that there must be something to it. Needs a heavier arm though, than the RB300, I think.
Regards,
Svend
True, the 103 isn’t a great Match for the RB300, and it’s a patchy performer in many ways. Sure, it’ll never track like a V15, but there’s something about the way it goes about making music that’s simply magical. Again, with the R200 or Jelco, a suitably massive headshell will do the job, but it doesn’t depend on high arm mass quite as much as many would have you believe.
Hmmm...interesting... One rarely hears negative things about the 103. Gotta be something there, eh? I really like that the Denon's are sensibly priced. So many of the MC carts are crazy-expensive here, which is one of the reasons I was looking at MM models.
BTW, I just heard from the tech that the Heybrook is repaired and working! Hurrah! Seems there were a couple of broken connections in the TPS...an easy fix. Now to get a good cart and make some music! That also means that the fine tuniing begins :), which is always fun. I will start another thread on that subject...tomorrow....just about to board another flight here, so will check back soon.
Thanks for all your help and sharing your experience!
Regards,
Svend
walpurgis
24-10-2017, 19:10
Hmmm...interesting... One rarely hears negative things about the 103.
Except from me. I've had several. They're certainly OK for the money, the mid is nice and the bass is well defined, but I find the treble lacking in analysis and a bit bland.
I wonder if there is a shop in this area that is set up to do back-to-back cartridge demos? I.e. several models and types of carts set up on the removable headshells, and swapped on and off the same deck so a buyer can hear the differences? I will have to call around here to see if anyone does that. You guys have made me very curious about MC's now :), especially with the recommendation of a couple of reasonable cost ones, so I'd really like to hear one now.
BTW, on the subject of proper phono pre-amplification, I am starting a new thread looking for your thoughts and experience on that:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?54563-Phono-pre-amplification-options-advice-needed&p=911040#post911040
Looking forward to hearing from you there....
Thanks!
Svend
freefallrob
25-10-2017, 10:24
Re the Denon DL-103, my first hand experience is with the 103R, I like it alot, but in my experience you don't the best of it in a standard RB300 and I've tried it on a R200 (with heavy headshell) just recently and didn't like the results much, lack of bass, cold sound, thin etc.
It does need a heavyish lossy arm in my humble opinion, it will work in many arms and sound OK, but it's more difficult to extract what it can do than more 'mainstream' cartridge. Loading can effect quite alot too. When it's right it sounds very right indeed, but the finer details can get missed, sometimes you don't care cos' your having such a rollicking good time :-).
Thanks Rob and Geoff, for the comments on the DL-103. I think for the moment I am going to have a go with the RB300 that's on the TT2 at present and hear how it sounds. As mentioned, the arm was rewired by a previous owner, so I'd really like to give it a chance to prove itself before I make any changes. My cartridge choice then becomes one that will work with the mass of the RB300 but also with a slightly heavier arm like a Jelco or R200....something medium compliance would suit nicely I think. Whether MM or MC is undecided :)
Regards,
Svend
hifi_dave
25-10-2017, 15:58
You'll have no problems with the RB300, though you might get best results by adding a little extra mass at the headshell end.
walpurgis
25-10-2017, 16:07
I've said it before and I know many seem happy with their Rega arms, but I found the RB250 and RB300 unimpressive.
I used both, with minor upgrades, on a Technics SL-1210. With my ZYX R100 mounted, both arms worked and produced music, but swapping over to my Mission 774 arm was like somebody had waved a magic wand over the music. The whole thing opened up and came to life!
So put that in yer pipe and smoke it!! :D
Cough! Gasp! Wheeze! Good Lord, what's that awful smell?!
https://m.popkey.co/427b53/mpopy.gif
Seriously -- it's all good feedback guys! Thanks for the insight. Everything posted like this is most helpful, and makes navigating the audio gear maze so much easier.
Cheers,
Svend
FYI, I just started another thread with some more questions about setting up the Heybrook. Mostly little things, but all important stuff (cart alignment, isolation, etc.).
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?54597-More-Heybrook-TT2-questions-sweating-the-small-stuff
Thanks,
Svend
Has anyone had experience with Grado cartridges on the Heybrook? If not, maybe on the similar LP12? I have read that hum is a problem with these carts on both decks. Has anyone found a fix for that?
Thanks,
Svend
freefallrob
27-10-2017, 13:31
I have, RB300 with Grado Prestige Gold, you do get hum, but it's not bad. More concerning is the 'Grado wobble' that occures with this combination, on some records it can throw the cart out of the groove......
Sounds rather dramatic Rob, and not something I want to deal with. Thanks for the head's up on that. Rules out Grado from the hunt. I've pretty much narrowed it down then to Goldring 2000 series (prob. the 2500); Ortofon 2M Bronze; or the Nagaoka MP-150. Will visit some shops this weekend and dig deeper.
Regards,
Svend
freefallrob
27-10-2017, 15:05
That was on the Heybrook too....
Got it! Thanks for clarifying. That definitely rules out the Grados then.
Re. MC cartridges, I do want to try one at some point, but will wait until I have a tonearm on the deck that has removable headshell so I can swap back and forth and experiment a bit.
Regards,
Svend
I replaced it for a while with an ortofon 2m black but I didn't get on with it. That was replaced with an at150 mlx which seems to be very similar the th black but was far less hassle to set up and just goes about its job stress free day in day out. I've no plans to change it apart from wanting to try an AT mc at some point.
Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk
Ben, what was it you didn't like about the 2M black as compared to the Goldring 2500? My short list for the Heybrook is now the 2M Bronze (similar to the Black), the 2500, and the Nagaoka MP-150 or 200. I am strongly leaning toward the Goldring, actually. I'd welcome your thoughts on this. Thanks!
Svend
Guys, I've read a few comments on some online forums about Goldring stylus QC and durability problems....needles falling off the cantilevers of almost new cartridges, stuff like that... Is there anything to this? Has anyone had any similar issues? Or is this just rubbish, caused by user error, ham-fisted handling when cleaning?
On Shane's recommendation re. the Rega R200 arm, I picked up an older model Planar 3 today in great shape. It has this very arm, a glass platter (nice!) and an Ortofon 2M Bronze cartridge. That was one of cartridges on my short list for the Heybrook. The P3 cost about half the price of a new 2M Bronze. So I now have a perfectly good turntable to play with or pass on to my daughters, and a nice cartridge for the Heybrook.
One of the reasons I wanted to go this route was the ability to do a direct arm swap between Heybrook and Planar. Even if the R200 needs a new bias belt, it's probably less work fixing that than building a new arm board for the Heybrook for, say, a Jelco or other arm of different length.
Besides, I've always wanted a simple Rega deck. I think they sound great for what they are, and the old P3 will work great in our second system. With a couple of simple and inexpensive mods, like machined metal subplatter and maybe some motor isolation and bracing, it should make very nice music indeed.
Now to go pick up the Heybrook from the shop and mount that Ortofon! :)
Regards,
Svend
freefallrob
01-11-2017, 10:12
Result!
I must say I'm quite enjoying the Planar 3 i have here at the moment with an R200 arm (with working bias!).
Way to go! As our transatlantic cousins say...
it’s quite likely that if the belt has rotted away, the bias magnets have been left at a suitable setting anyway. A quick check with a suitable tracking test disc will tell you, I use the old HFS69 record, but there are plenty of others. Mind you,I have a suspicion that you’re looking forward to the challenge of changing the bias belt anyway!
Rob - good to hear that you like the Planar 3. The seller demoed his through McIntosh pre-/power amps and Tannoy speakers. It sounded really great, and he had done nothing to set up the cartridge properly or anything else. It should do far better once I get done with it. :D Once I'm ready to set up the second system and press the P3 into service, then I will post another thread about maintenance, setup, and sorting out which of the many aftermarket mods are worth it and which are marketing hype. But that's for a later date....
Shane - yes, I patted myself on the back for this find. And, as we also say on this side of the pond, YeeHaw! Just kidding, I never say that... But I might have uttered something similar under my breath (rhymes with Ducking Bight), carrying the P3 to the car.
Remind me how to test for AS function without a test record? I saw a post about that on Vinyl Engine I think, but now I can't find it. Or should I just suck it up and buy a test record? No...don't answer that, I know what your reply will be... :rolleyes: Off to Amazon I go....(sigh)...
Quick test on the workbench last night showed that, with tonearm balanced at zero, dialling the AS up and down did seem to make a significant difference as to how fast the arm pulled back to the rest. So from that very unscientific test there seems to be something at work in there.
Say, if I were to post a pic or two of the R200's wiring, would anyone here know if they are stock or a rewire? The RCA plugs seem to be an add-on and rather nice, but I'm not sure about the cables.
I will go pick up the Heybrook tomorrow, have a good few days of listening with the RB300/2M Bronze, then do the arm swap.
Cheers,
Svend
Your bench test would indicate that the bias belt is still intact, but it may be very fragile so don’t be surprised if it fails at some point.
The test record I use has bands of 300Hz test tones at progressively higher levels which allow you to set up tracking weight and bias for minimum mistracking. It’s a pretty old record now, first produced in 1969, it there are plenty of modern equivalents.
IIRC on the stock R200 as fitted to the Planar 3 the signal lead exited the bottom of the arm pillar through a 90 degree captive plastic plug. It was covered in grey cotton woven braid and terminated with moulded PVC RCA plugs. Photos should confirm.
The cable and plugs are definitely not what you describe. Not sure what brand the cable is (no markings), but the plugs are Acrolink FR-126 (never heard of these)...they seem quite solid.
As for the AS test, I repeated it just now, and at 0 the arm very slowly moves back to the rest; as the dial is moved higher (0.5, 1.0, etc...) it progressively moves faster. I didn't move it past 1.5. So from this test it certainly seems the belt is still intact. Good news!
Svend
Here are some pics of the headshell leads...
For future reference, I found another very detailed thread on repairing the R200 bias belt:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=49784
Some very good pictures here and good step by step description.
freefallrob
01-11-2017, 14:55
Here you go...
The cables are not original, however this is not necessarily a bad thing.
walpurgis
01-11-2017, 15:17
For future reference, I found another very detailed thread on repairing the R200 bias belt:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=49784
Some very good pictures here and good step by step description.
Somewhat like this.
http://i63.tinypic.com/nnphkh.jpg http://i67.tinypic.com/ng1ws1.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/el5zjl.jpg http://i64.tinypic.com/200fwif.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/jzgvnm.jpg http://i64.tinypic.com/fegsyc.jpg
Yes. That was mine in bits.
The cables are not original, however this is not necessarily a bad thing.
Quite so, Rob. One would think that someone taking the trouble to replace the wiring would have done so in order to upgrade it. If that's the case, this arm is looking better and better.
I'm contemplating not even bothering to set up the Bronze on the Heybrook/RB300 at this point, and just doing an arm swap straight away and leaving the Bronze on the R200.
Originally Posted by walpurgis
Somewhat like this.
Good one Geoff. Is this from a thread of yours?
It would sure be nice if I didn't have to do all that, but it's probably inevitable.
Svend
walpurgis
01-11-2017, 15:45
Is this from a thread of yours?
No. Just some photos I saved whilst doing the job. I sold the arm shortly afterwards.
You'll find getting the plastic inner and outer magnet moving helix correctly aligned the most annoying part. The outer rotating piece has several possible positions and you need the get the operating knob set to point correctly.
Pardon my lack of knowledge, but what is the purpose of the little cylinder at the end of the shaft which extends inboard from the tonearm, between CW and pivot?
walpurgis
01-11-2017, 15:59
Pardon my lack of knowledge, but what is the purpose of the little cylinder at the end of the shaft which extends inboard from the tonearm, between CW and pivot?
It's a lateral balance weight, to compensate for the arm's 'S' shape offsetting the headshell and its weight. They are not uncommon. The Pioneer PL-12D has one.
I think they are basically a waste of time. Any imparted torsional effects through the arm without one seem to produce nothing untoward. An old tweak was to remove them as they were regarded as prone to resonating.
Got it! Thanks for that. I see your point about resonating. Every little thing matters, eh?
BTW, back to the wiring on my arm, if you look at the 2nd and 3rd pics in the Vinyl Engine thread that I linked, his arm seems to have the exact same cables as mine. This makes me think that perhaps at some point during the production period of this deck/arm Rega changed their cables from what Rob and Shane have seen, and that the ones on mine are in fact original. Again, not necessarily bad (I hope).
Svend
walpurgis
01-11-2017, 16:43
There are aftermarket conversion kits for tonearms, that include a five pin plug that sits in the recess at the base of the arm stem and a lead with a captive corresponding socket.
So basically that would allow easy swapping of outboard cables? Is that worth doing to this arm? How good (or poor) might the stock tonearm wires and connecting cables be? (keeping in mind it's going on the Heybrook)
Don’t forget that on a suspended turntable like the TT2, the more flexible the better. Some of the really thick figure 8 cables can be a nightmare to dress properly.
Don’t forget that on a suspended turntable like the TT2, the more flexible the better. Some of the really thick figure 8 cables can be a nightmare to dress properly.
Funny, my wife said the same about me just the other morning...
Shane, I don't suspect the cable on the R200 would fit your characterization of "really thick". It is a figure 8, about the thickness of a good sized power cord -- thicker than a lamp cord; thinner than a 16ga. cord into, say, an amplifier. Feels fairly light and flexible. I'm sure it'll be OK... But any comments gratefully accepted.
So I picked up the Heybrook from the shop today, and it runs! Hurrah! The tech checked the speed and it's all good. I did ask them not to adjust the suspension as I would like to learn to do it myself, and I will be playing with a clamp and mats in the near future so changing the mass occasionally.
There's still a bit of work to do: swap the arms; touch up the finish on the plinth; polish the platter rim; adjust springs; align the cartridge; adjust VTA if needed; do the cable dressing; clean the bearing well and add oil. Should be playing music in a couple of days. :)
The belt looks in good shape, but have you any experience with the Origin Live belts? They make some rather lofty claims about their performance. Any truth to that? Worth paying a bit extra for?
Thanks,
Svend
pure sound
03-11-2017, 08:29
I do have the proper Heybrook belts (acquired from the factory when it closed). They are a very high quality item sourced, I think, from the same supplier Linn used although the TT2 belt is shorter than the LP12 belt.
freefallrob
03-11-2017, 11:30
I do have the proper Heybrook belts (acquired from the factory when it closed). They are a very high quality item sourced, I think, from the same supplier Linn used although the TT2 belt is shorter than the LP12 belt.
I can vouch for these (and Guy!) as I purchased from him when I had a TT2.
Perfect! Thanks for touching base. Guy, I will send you a PM later today.
Chat soon...
Svend
21801
Starting to look better.... :)
The aluminum polishing compound worked great on the platter rim (I used Met-All polish). Platter looks as good as new.
I used an aniline wood dye to get the chipped finish back to black, then a couple of coats of Danish oil to fill in the damaged parts, buffed out. Just a bit of lemon oil left to apply on the whole plinth and it should look quite nice.
Best,
Svend
Brilliant! I’ve not come across the OL belts, but I doubt that they would significantly improve on the original. As Guy says, it was sourced from the same supplier as the Linn belt, and Guy’s replacements are genuine NOS. Having said that, there’s no reason to assume there’s anything wrong with your current belt. Mine’s 35 years old now and still perfectly good!
You might want to have a look at my webspace. There’s a load of assorted pics of TT2s and a PDF of the original owner’s manual which details how to set up the suspension, arm leads and belt tracking.
http://www.thepippin.plus.com/TT2/
Thank you Shane. That will be a great help!
Could you give your opinion on the question of the arm cable? I'm wondering if the figure 8 cable on the R200 is what you would consider too thick? It doesn't seem thick to me, but then my frame of reference is basically zero experience with suspended decks. If you need further description or better photos then let me know. I can try to find some pics on the web also, as several R200's pictured out there seem to have the same cable as mine.
If it's not going to work, then no worries, I will rewire it (prob. not a bad idea anyway, if it's stock wiring).
Thanks for the comment on the belts. I'll probably buy a couple to just to have a spare.
Best,
Svend
Looking back at you photos of the arm lead, I don’t think you’ll have any problems. If it’s fairly soft it’ll be fine. Looking really good!
Thanks! Just need to let the Danish oil cure on the chipped areas, then top coat of lemon oil and it will be gleaming :) More pics once it's done...
Good to hear about the R200. Should be fine re. the cable -- it's quite flexible.
I just checked the compliance specs of the 2M Bronze, and it's really rather high compliance at 22. So probably not a great match for the R200 -- RF comes out to 6.96...not ideal. I will probably wait to switch arms until I get a lower compliance cartridge. No sense starting out with a mismatch, not after all this work. I'd like to try an MC soon. The shop that worked on the TT2 was highly recommending the Hana line, and they certainly get good press. The Denons will work on a heavier arm also. Looking forward to dipping my toe into the world of moving coils.
Cheers,
Svend
Re. setting the springs -- the owners manual for the TT2 only talks about levelling the subchassis using the spring adjustment bolts (after levelling the plinth and centering the subchassis in the plinth). Is that all there is to it? I was under the impression that the "bounce" of the subchassis had to be just so, and spring adjustment was carried out to achieve the right amount of rebound. Am I over-thinking this, or is it just as simple as the manual says?
Thanks,
Svend
walpurgis
06-11-2017, 18:47
is it just as simple as the manual says?
Thanks,
Svend
Yes.
Hopefully Shane will be along to confirm but I believe for the TT2 the springs are aligned to the position that gives the right bounce. The springs are marked for that alignment. I have never had any problem with the TT2 not giving a pistonic bounce.
For LP12s the springs have to be rotated to find that position.
As we say over here... Well I'll be darned! I was fully expecting to spend hours of frustration fiddling with the spring adjusters getting the bounce set precisely right. The medicinal whiskey bottle was already poised at the workbench in anticipation of frayed nerves. Seems like this is rather a matter of minutes. A bit of a let down, really, as I was bracing for the challenge. (just kidding - the sooner I can play music on this thing the better!).
Let's hope Shane doesn't burst my bubble now... :)
Thanks,
Svend
As they say at PMQs, I refer my honourable friend to my previous answer.
It will, but adjusting the TT2 suspension to compensate is an absolute doddle. Unlike some....
it really is that simple. If the springs are aligned correctly, which they will be unless someone’s dismantled it and put it back together wrong, then the only thing that will upset the bounce is a stiff arm lead that’s been badly dressed.
How’s it sounding?
As they say at PMQs, I refer my honourable friend to my previous answer.
it really is that simple. If the springs are aligned correctly, which they will be unless someone’s dismantled it and put it back together wrong, then the only thing that will upset the bounce is a stiff arm lead that’s been badly dressed.
How’s it sounding?
Frustratingly, I haven't got to playing it as yet. We were away for the weekend (visiting eldest daughter at university), then got back to tinkering with it last night. Got as far as mounting and aligning the Bronze, and discovered that the VTA is way off (tail down), so will need a spacer. Quick fix is going to be a 1" id stainless washer until I get around to ordering some proper Rega spacers. But this means getting into an arm removal, adding spacer, and re-dressing the cable, for which I didn't have time last night.
Springs and seats are in good shape, though. I took them all off, as they were not lined up with the red marks. Once lined up they stayed put during the whole suspension adjust procedure -- nice! And you guys were right, this is a doddle, as you say. Nuthin' to it. Piece of cake.... :D The armboard is a bit skewed laterally, but I assume that's OK, as long as it's not touching the plinth...correct?
For bearing oil I had some light semi-synthetic spindle oil (for air tools) kicking around -- it needed about five drops. Seems to work great -- platter spins forever.
I also put a few drops of sewing machine oil into the top of the motor at the shaft bushing, so that should do it some good.
So other than setting the VTA spacer, I think it's good to go. Plinth looks great with a coat of lemon oil on it. Stain job worked OK, but not perfect. I will keep at it with a touch-up stain pen to see if it takes up any more.
Hopefully it will be playing music tonight :)
Cheers,
Svend
PS - I will be ordering a belt from Guy, and maybe a blank arm board if I feel inclined to put a Jelco on there. Nice to know there's someone I can get original parts from.
Don't know if Guy has replacement arm boards at Puresound.
The arm board was the biggest problem on mine. It was a problem when I bought the deck but I did not know better at the time. The board was thicker at one end and also a bit warped so I could not get the arm properly level relative to the platter. I tried to compensate but the net result was the deck under performed.
Some posts by Jamie here and at Audiokarma convinced me to have a go at replacing it. The process is not straight forward for someone without carpentry skills but when I succeeded it transformed the deck.
Thanks Clive -- I appreciate the head's up on that. I just checked the arm board with a small straightedge and it seems flat. I will see about measuring thickness somehow... Crossing fingers that it's all OK. Good tip on matching tonearm level with platter -- I hadn't thought of that.
Making a new one should be quite straightforward, if needed, but I really don't want to have to do that if I can avoid it.
In the end I may not end up with a Jelco on this deck, as I have the RB300 and R200 to play with and really need to hear them for a longer time before I decide. It will be a couple of months before any verdict is out. We'll see...
Cheers,
Svend
The problem with the arm board led to the cartridge azimuth being out with a right bias that varied a bit across the records. I used some washers to try to compensate but don't think the coupling of arm to board that resulted was optimum.
The original arm board was made from two layers of 9mm birch ply glued and stapled together with the two m4 mounting studs fitted through the bottom board before assembly. I think the staples were there just to hold the two layers together during manufacture. The glue would most likely be PVA. I don’t have the original drawings but I can measure one up to get the correct dimensions if need be.
Shane - I have not used glue for the replacement board I fabricated. Just used tacks and the two bolts with plywood I got from B&Q. One bolt to hold it firmly in place and the other for location,
I think the drawing was available in an older thread (unless photobucket has killed it) but I was able to use the board that came with the deck as a template. The new board is working well for me so I am in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" territory. I did do several in order to get one that worked. I had to do the holes for a Linn mount. A Rega mount will probably be pretty easy.
Svend - it should be possible to adjust the arm board so it is not skewed relative to the plinth. You can adjust the position if you relax the fixing bolt/nut which will provide a little play for getting it right. Provided it is not knocking against the plinth then it should not effect the sound if it is skewed but visually it is better to have it aligned.
Thanks Clive -- It's definitely not touching the sides, although it's pretty close...couple of millimetres. I will try adjusting that at some point -- there's still some tweaking to be done.... Right now I'm just happy to have it playing music (see next post :) )
Best,
Svend
Hurrah! The Heybrook is playing sweet music!
21862
21863
21864
So happy to have it working. And boy, does it ever sound fantastic! I am absolutely amazed at the detail, clarity and full sound coming out of the speakers from that humble little turntable. Simply wonderful!
More tomorrow...it's quite late in the evening here now and I'm long past being lucid and capable of descriptive prose. Until then....
Svend
:)
Not 100% certain about the acoustic properties of th armoire but it looks amazing!
Yeah, the armoire is not ideal, granted. But my wife has recently been making little remarks about replacing it :). Will have to live with it for a little while yet...
As for the Heybrook, my first impressions of cartridge/arm/deck were "Darn, this is bright!". But upon further listening I realized that it wasn't bright at all, just accurate. It was revealing treble I'd never heard before in my LP's. Coming from a middle-of-the-road Shure cartridge on a low-end Technics TT you can see what I mean. I listened to a range of music -- Beethoven piano concerto, Monk-Rollins, Roxy Music, Sade -- and all sounded fantastic. I was most impressed by the orchestral -- the cartridge/arm/deck handled it extremely well. No muddiness or blurriness - just great composure and delivery. Vocals were remarkable too - just Wow! with every track.
Everything I had read about the 2M Bronze was on display last night. It is VERY detailed and almost analytical. Less warmth than I expected. But presence and soundstage are wonderful. It is very quick, with great drive and punch. Shane, I'm not sure what cartridge you were using on your RB300, but I heard none of the woolliness that you described. The sound has great clarity, detail and dynamics. So from my first initial listening, I'd say the Bronze is a good match to make this arm come alive. Might be the higher compliance(?).
The Bronze does seem to be sensitive to VTA. For a couple of jazz tracks I swapped on a thicker cork mat for the thin felt one, putting the arm slightly tail down, and immediately half the bass disappeared and the soundstage shrank. Not sure if I will play around with VTA any more -- the arm is nicely parallel with felt mat, and any little tweaks to VTA mean a lot of hassle adding a spacer. I will likely look around for a reasonably priced VTA-on-the-fly device for Rega arms -- there are one or two out there that cost more than I paid for the turntable, so further searching is needed.
Whether the Bronze/RB300 will stay on the Heybrook I'm not sure yet. I just ordered a Goldring 1022 to go on the R200 arm, so I will swap those onto the deck sometime soon and compare. Whichever sounds best will stay.
BTW, the phono stage in the Sugden preamp seems to be a good one. Very transparent, good imaging and soundstage. Not sure how an outboard stage could better this, but so far I really like it.
As for isolation, aside from the armoire (:rolleyes:) I still need to do something about a more solid base and maybe some cones for below the deck. That will come soon...
In the meantime I'll be enjoying the music from the wonderful Heybrook! :)
Thanks for all your help, everyone, and especially Shane. Much appreciated! And I hope I can repay the favour one day...
Best,
Svend
Delighted to help! I look forward to your opinions of the R200, but for the moment just enjoy.
Certainly - I will post back here once I get the R200/Goldring on there. Will let the cart break in for a bit before I comment. Looking forward to trying it! Presently searching for a simple, solid VTA adjuster for these arms...Michell seems to have a nicely made one.
Shane, is there any reason I can't leave the bottom plate off the TT2? A couple of these VTA adjusters (Michell, Lim) require access to the bottom threads of the arm. This would be a whole lot simpler on the TT2 if I could just leave the plate off, even just temporarily until I find the VTA sweet spot.
No reason why not. It might have a very minor effect on the sound but not significant, and there are no exposed live parts. Should be fine.
Good one! As I said, it would only be temporary until I settle on a VTA that works, and of course which cartridge/arm combo I decide on. I'm pretty sure the Mitchell VTA adjusting collar has to be tightened from below. Having the bottom cover off would save a lot of hassle pulling the deck out, inverting it, etc...
Cheers,
Svend
Shane, I noticed that the power supply unit stays warm even when shut off for hours, overnight even. This tells me there's something in there drawing power and converting it to heat. Is this normal? Or is there something funky with the wiring? I've taken to unplugging it after I use it.
Otherwise I am loving the TT2! Spent much time this weekend listening to tunes and trying out different cartridge alignments, VTA's, mats, etc.. Still have some sibilance issues to fix with the 2M Bronze. And I'm frustrated at getting the anti-skate properly set. But all in all the deck is sounding really, really good. The Goldring 1022 should be here this week, then I will swap arms to the R200. Looking forward to that.
Best,
Svend
I keep the TPS on mine plugged in. Don't find the TPS gets noticeably warm when not used.
Sorry Svend, the TPS was a later addition to the TT2 some years after I left Heybrook, so I don’t have any knowledge of its circuitry. Indeed, I’ve never even seen one! I think it was designed by Tim de Paravicini of EAR, so he may possibly be able to enlighten you.
I keep the TPS on mine plugged in. Don't find the TPS gets noticeably warm when not used.
Thanks Clive. Good to know that. Seems like there might be something amiss with mine then.
Shane -- as long as Tim doesn't mind me contacting him, then it's certainly worth asking the question. Thanks for that.
This is quite odd, I must say -- I don't recall ever seeing a piece of electronics that got or stayed warm when switched off. It's like the board is live all the time, and wired wrong - i.e. the switch is on the neutral wire, not the hot side. I will contact the tech who did the service first, before I bother Tim with it.
Thanks guys!
Svend
PS -- sibilance on the Bronze is pretty much gone now :). Treated the stylus to a few dunks in a Magic Eraser, and that cured it. I've not used one of those before - remarkable! Never using a stylus brush again...
Svend - a couple of things
First be aware that my installation is different to yours in that my deck has an on/off switch. The TPS was installed later and is configured so that the switch on the deck lights up if I set the TPS to either 33 or 45 rpm.
There is equipment that does still use power when switched off. The AR XA turntables are like that in that there is slight vibration on the pulleys when the turntable is switched off. There are plenty of posts by users who are disconcerted by the vibration.
The concern I would have with your TPS is that it is getting warm.
Yes, it is unusual. Just to be clear, the TPS is not getting hot, just slightly warm. And this even after sitting overnight, all equipment in the cabinet switched off -- amps, tuner, CD player, the whole lot.
From what you say re. the AR deck, is it possible that the motor in the TT2 is drawing some power?
I have sent a message to the tech who worked on the TPS to ask his insight. Hope to hear back soon.
Svend
Just checked my TT2 again - no indications of any power to the deck when the TPS is in the off position. No indication of any warmth on either the case or underside of the TPS.
Thanks Clive! That's a great help, and good to know. Heard back from the tech, and according to him the TPS is always in "standby mode", even when switched off. He said there are two large resistors in there that get warm, which is where the heat comes from. Nothing to worry about, says he. I trust him at his word, as he's done some top-notch work for me over the years and knows his stuff.
Still, odd that your unit doesn't show the same behaviour. That, and it makes me a little uncomfortable knowing the unit is energized when it's supposed to be switched off. I've now plugged it into a power bar with an on-off switch, and I'll be using that to shut it off properly when not in use.
Best,
Svend
I checked again this morning when the room was cold after a chilly night. There was a slight warmth in the unit relative to the equipment stand it is sited on but very mild.
Hmmm...interesting. So it seems my unit isn't wired weird after all. This confirms what the tech said. Thanks Clive! Makes me feel much better. My TPS is quite noticeably warm, but then it's sitting in an enclosed cabinet with little to no air circulation. Maybe a difference in the voltage here also, and different parts, causing more heat...who knows...?
I appreciate you checking. Hope I didn't cause you any worry for your own unit(?). :hmm:
Hi Svend,
I have a TT2 also, and used to have the integrated TPS (where the normal TT on/off switch is removed). I had a couple of issues with it - first one necessitating replacement caps and the second one being unfortunately terminal. I never found out what it was. Anyway, reason for the post is that I was given some really helpful information from Guy at Puresound (I think he posts here), especially one relating to potential problems caused by overheating. If you think it might help you I can let you have copies (once I work out how to do it!).
I ended up getting a Heed Orbit for mine - works a treat :)
Hi Steve,
Thanks for chiming in here. Any info regarding the TT2 would be most welcome. I am so taken with this deck that I can see it being a central part of my main system for a very long time. It keeps sounding better and better the more I tweak it. Remarkable!
Guy from Parasound does post here, and in fact dropped in to this thread re. original parts for the TT2 that he got when the factory closed. Was his feedback to you part of this forum? If so, maybe I can search for it, or you could post a link to lead me to it? Don't want to create any inconvenience for you copying stuff...
Re. overheating, that's interesting given the recent discovery that the TPS unit stays "live" all the time, even when switched off. I wonder if that had something to do with your overheating issue? As I mentioned, I've now got mine plugged in to a power bar and I just shut it off when not in use.
As for fatal problems, my understanding is that there are a couple of chips in the TPS that can fail and are no longer obtainable. There are quite a number of posts about that here and elsewhere on other forums. Crossing fingers here that my unit holds out. But good of you to suggest a replacement in the event it does go south. I do wonder if early failure of these chips may be partly caused by the "always on" state of the TPS?
BTW, I received delivery of a Goldring 1022 yesterday, and if I get to it tonight I will mount it to the R200 arm and swap the arms. Should be interesting to hear the difference from the 2M Bronze/RB300 on there now... :)
Regards,
Svend
PS -- great avatar! Big Python fan here :)
No worries, Svend. I've only just joined the forum so still finding my way about, but either way you are welcome to any info I have on the TT2 or TPS. I'll have more time at the weekend to work things out. My own TPS failed back in 2013 and I can't honestly recall whether it was running hot like yours or not. The good news though is that the TT2 and Heed replacement PSU work a real treat - if anything slightly better. The one to go for is the Heed Orbit 1 (there is also a 2).
You know, I'm always surprised at how little the TT2 gets mentioned these days. There must be quite a few about and as has been often said, there is little to go seriously wrong and they're certainly capable of punching well above their weight. The only thing that does worry me slightly is the spring grommets as there just doesn't seem to be any supplies anywhere at all and I don't know what alternatives could be used. Thankfully mine seem OK at the moment.
Yes - Python rule! I have a lot of their LP's, including Matching Tie and Handkerchief which as two sides cut on one, making it a three sides single LP!
Steve, you might check with Guy re. the spring seats. He mentioned in a PM that he does have the springs themselves, so likely also the seats that go with them. Maybe not a bad idea to have a few on hand if you intend to keep the table for many more years.
Thanks again for the heads up on the Heed unit. Good to know there's a suitable backup if the TPS fails.
Re. my own TPS and the heat thing -- just to be clear, it's not running overly hot. I was only concerned that it stayed warm when it, and the whole rest of the system, were switched off, telling me that it was still live and using energy when it should have been off and cold. As it turns out this seems to be a normal condition for this unit, and I've now taken to switching off the power to the unit completely. I'm hoping this also prolongs it's lifespan.
Regards,
Svend
Guy has supplies of springs, but not seats as far as I know. Having said that I've never come across a TT2 that needed them replacing and I've never seen one show any signed of deterioration. They were moulded from butyl rubber which is pretty stable. If necessary, it would probably be possible to do a DIY moulding from polyurethane or silicone moulding compound, but I haven't tried it myself. I would be able to make up drawings if need be.
Thanks for the offer Shane, but the grommets on mine are still in great shape. No sign of drying out or deterioration of any kind. Springs look good too -- only a bit of whitish surface corrosion, presumably from the zinc galvanizing, but no rust visible.
BTW, I wanted to mount the R200 last night, but the dang cable connector popped off the bottom of the arm and ripped off two of the little arm wires :doh:. After much cussing and swearing I calmed down enough to attempt a soldering job -- not easy! those wires are as fine as hair. I think I finally succeeded after three tries, and have continuity from every terminal at the end of the arm to the RCAs. I'll quickly test the arm back on the Planar deck to make sure it works, before I take the trouble to mount it on the Heybrook. I also called around the area here to see if anyone would do a rewire of this arm -- no go; no one will touch it. Hope it's still OK...
Best,
Svend
Shane, just curious...how well would a low mass tonearm work on the TT2? A friend has an ADC LMF-2 carbon fibre arm, 8g effective mass. He's willing to sell it to me for a great price - less than what a rewire of the R200 would cost. Same geo as the Rega arms, so just a drop-in replacement. Comes with an ADC ZLM cartridge. Both the arm and cart seem well-regarded from what I glean from the web comments.
I'm intrigued.... What say you? Any experience with this arm? Or low mass arms in general on the TT2?
Best,
Svend
I have no experience of the ADC arm but I was a big fan of the cartridges back in the day, way better than anything Shure ever came up with. No reason why a low mass arm shouldn't work fine on a TT2. I'm using a Mission 774 on mine and they don't come much lower mass than that. Go for it!
http://www.thepippin.plus.com/Misc/774.JPG
Thinking about it, the LMF-2 was one of those things like a Lotus Europa or a C-Class catamaran. All your mates lusted after one but we all ended up with Minis and Enterprises instead and dreams that never quite came true. The difference now of course is that forty years on a C class would probably kill me and I doubt if i could even get into a Europa, but an LMF-2 is still perfectly practical!
Just refreshing my memory on Google, its a gorgeous looking thing, but that long counterweight stub means you'd probably have to run it without the lid.
Doubt I could get into a Lotus either...:rolleyes: Would need months of yoga training...:D
I'll go check out the arm later this week. Hope it's still in good shape. Thanks for the insight. Not sure why I thought a super-light arm wouldn't work on the TT2... Maybe because the deck is so solid and well made.
Have a good Sunday!
Svend
PS - I don't have lid for the TT2, so no concern for the long arm stub here...
Should you decide one day that you want a lid for it, the original was sourced from Linn, and is identical to the LP12 lid except for the badge. LP12 lids and hinges are still available from Linn but he price will bring tears to your eyes!
Thanks Shane. Not sure I will even use a lid just now. The cabinet is a bit of a tight fit, and I aim to put the TT2 on some sort of more solid support, making even less room in there. For now I just use a silk handkerchief to keep the dust off. Works fine. OTOH, if we ever replace the cabinet with a different stand, then a lid would be great to have. Thanks for the tip!
Svend
BTW, I wanted to mount the R200 last night, but the dang cable connector popped off the bottom of the arm and ripped off two of the little arm wires :doh:. After much cussing and swearing I calmed down enough to attempt a soldering job -- not easy! those wires are as fine as hair. I think I finally succeeded after three tries, and have continuity from every terminal at the end of the arm to the RCAs. I'll quickly test the arm back on the Planar deck to make sure it works, before I take the trouble to mount it on the Heybrook.
Tested the arm on the P3 today and it works! Soldering job successful. Thank goodness! I will swap it onto the Heybrook at my earliest opportunity to see how it sounds. If it's at least as good (or close) as the RB300 then I will rewire it to really get the best out of it. More later...
Svend
Here's a question for Shane: if you look at the attached pic of the underside of the armboard, there are two mounting bolts visible (which I presume are the factory mounting bolts). But there are also two small square-drive screws. Are these factory? I did not take either out, not knowing their purpose, but it seems they might be holding the armboard fast. If so, then perhaps I should remove them? I recall you saying in another thread that the armboard sounded best with only one mounting bolt fastened, and a second unfastened just to align the board....correct?
Any insight would be helpful. Many thanks!
Yes, that’s as it should be. I can’t remember the detailed theory, but we found that because of the much greater contact area between the board and the alloy chassis compared with the steel one, it worked better that way. The little wood screws give the board a bit more stability without being strong enough to provide sufficient clamping pressure to create a second rigid energy path between the two.
Good one - thanks Shane! I was worried that someone had drilled through the chassis and put in screws where they didn't belong.
And I thought Robertson screws were only used in Canada :)
On another note, I've been meaning to thank you for all your patient assistance during the past couple of weeks. I wouldn't be anywhere near having this turntable in the condition it's in if it wasn't for all your help. Greatly appreciated, and not taken for granted! Hope I can repay the favour one day.
Best wishes,
Svend
Forgot to mention: I mounted the R200 arm last night and had a quick listen. The bad news is that my little soldering repair seems to have been only partly successful. The arm gave off an evil hissing sound, even at rest. Touching anywhere along the phono cable and moving it only the slightest bit unleashed an ungodly crackling. Music did come out, but only at much lower volume. I finally wiggled the cable into a position where the noise disappeared and output was normal, and then had a proper listen to a few songs.
First impressions: Wow! Very nice! Now I know what you and some others here have been going on about re. this arm. Sounds wonderful. It has a fullness, warmth, and silkiness to the sound that the RB300 didn't have. More listening coming tonight, but I sense I'm getting very close to achieving the sound I was after with this turntable. I think this arm is a keeper!
BTW, in order to keep all variables as close as possible to the RB300 (save the cable and maybe a wee bit of VTA difference...I tried to get it as near as I could by eyeballing it) I moved the 2M Bronze from the RB300 over to the R200, using the same Rega Baerwald alignment. Boy, the R200 really makes that cartridge sing. Totally different sound character -- the analytical, sterile, etched sound seems to be gone. Lots of jump and boogie happening. Very impressive!
In any case, the arm will need to be rewired. I am contemplating doing it myself, as the AS bias belt is still intact and the bearings are tight. It's just a matter of cracking open the headshell connector and threading the wires up through the stem. Should be easy... OTOH, J7 at Audio Origami would really give it a thorough going over, plus new wiring, for a very reasonable price. Will think on that...
More tomorrow after I have a good long listen...
Cheers,
Svend
On another note, I've been meaning to thank you for all your patient assistance during the past couple of weeks. I wouldn't be anywhere near having this turntable in the condition it's in if it wasn't for all your help. Greatly appreciated, and not taken for granted! Hope I can repay the favour one day.
Best wishes,
Svend
It’s a funny old world. Forty years ago a couple of mates of mine had an idea to make a loudspeaker, and I was playing with bits of old turntables in my bedroom because as a broke twenty-something I couldn’t afford to buy a decent one. The loudspeaker idea sort of grew and my mates formed a company to put it into production in an old barn in Devon. One of them lived in a village called Heybrook Bay, so that gave them a name. Since I was out of work at the time I joined them assembling what was by then theHB2. That went well, and the HB3 and HB1 rapidly followed, and it was decided to put some of my turntable ideas into a proper product which became the TT2. After a couple of years things moved on, I left the company and the hifi business, and over the years the Heybrook years just became s distant memory. Thirty years later along comes the internet and hifi forums and suddenly I find that there’s a whole load of people out there who own and love TT2s and want to get the best out of them years after I’d left all that behind. It’s immensely gratifying to be able to revive all those memories and be able to help, and a bit humbling to think that my hobby project has been quietly giving people so much pleasure for so long. The pleasure’s all mine!
Wonderful story Shane! It's clear from your posts here that you really are quite passionate about your work on the TT2 back in the day. And yes, it must be very gratifying to see so many people recognize what a great design it was and take the time and energy to keep these decks running. Funny, here in Canada the Heybrook name makes people, whether in the industry or just enthusiasts, instantly sit up and take notice... "Oh! That's a good turntable!" is the reaction I've been getting from just about everyone from high-end dealers to audiophiles. Nothing but positive things to say. So everyone here knows the Heybrook TT2 and knows how good it is. You should be proud.
All the best,
Svend
Thinking about it, the LMF-2 was one of those things like a Lotus Europa or a C-Class catamaran. All your mates lusted after one but we all ended up with Minis and Enterprises instead and dreams that never quite came true. The difference now of course is that forty years on a C class would probably kill me and I doubt if i could even get into a Europa, but an LMF-2 is still perfectly practical!
Just refreshing my memory on Google, its a gorgeous looking thing, but that long counterweight stub means you'd probably have to run it without the lid.
So Shane (or anyone else with experience with this), just how good is the LMF-2 arm? Any more insight? I'm looking at picking it up this weekend, but it's a 5 hour round trip drive, plus the purchase price. If it's only on par with the RB300 or R200 then I wouldn't bother. I would get him to ship it but it's attached to a Rega Planar 2 deck :), which is part of the deal (not that I need another turntable :rolleyes:). That, and I'd actually like to see it and hear it in person. It has to be worth the bother.
Curious to hear more about this from anyone who knows this arm.
Best,
Svend
I only know it from reputation, Svend. I haven’t used one myself. I’d expect it to be a good bit better than the Regas, but don’t quote me on that!
walpurgis
30-11-2017, 19:57
how good is the LMF-2 arm?
I hope you're planning to use high compliance cartridges with it. It's a low mass design.
Shane - thanks! Sounds like it might be worth the trip then. Looks as if I might end up with a nice little Rega deck as a bonus to pass along to one of my daughters :)
Geoff - yes, that's understood, but thanks for the reminder. The arm comes with an ADC ZLM cartridge mounted to it, which should be a good match. If not, I also have the 2M Bronze which is also high compliance. Looks like I'll be OK here.
Svend
walpurgis
30-11-2017, 21:15
A ZLM with original stylus should be awesome in the LMF-2. I'll be interested to hear what you make of it if you buy it.
Me too! I must say I was underwhelmed by the sound of the RB300 / 2M Bronze combo on the Heybrook. First listen was "Wow! Brilliant", but then once my hearing settled in it wasn't so great. I seem to remember you and Shane mentioning something like this a while back...now I know what you meant.
Next up was the R200 / Bronze...much better; more musical, fuller, richer; but less detailed and a bit muddy in the bass and rolled off highs. I like it very much, but it needs a rewire. So for about the same cost as a rewire I am looking at this LMF-2, and it has a Planar 2 and ZLM thrown in for good measure.
As an aside, I must say I'm a bit baffled as to why the RB300 sounded so off. Mismatch to the Heybrook? It's much heavier in total mass (not eff. mass) than the R200. Capacitance mismatch with the cables and the Bronze? When comparing it to the R200, all other variables I tried to keep the same - cart. alignment, VTF, VTA (as best as I could eyeball it); but different cables, mind. Strange...so many people have told me it's a much better arm than the R200, but that's not what I heard. Maybe it will sound more at home on a Rega deck, and just doesn't suit a suspended one?
In any case I'm intrigued by the LMF-2 arm. Seems I have nothing to lose money-wise, so why not try it.
Best,
Svend
BTW, there's another option for a tonearm available here for about the same price -- a Grace G840F. Any thoughts or opinions on this one? Again, not much written about it on the web. It seems to be medium mass, at about 12g, S-shape, VTA adjuster... I've no idea how this would rate next to the LMF-2 arm though, or the Regas for that matter.
walpurgis
30-11-2017, 23:19
I'm sure the Grace is decent. I believe the 'F' version has bias compensation. It will be a medium/high mass design and suited to lower compliance cartridges.
I only have experience of the G707 of which I've had a few. Very well made, but not the greatest sounding.
To be honest, if I had a Heybrook, I'd be looking for an original Mission 774 to bung on it.
Geoff, I'm sure a Mission would be great, but I don't think I've seen a single one for sale here in the many months that I've been scouting the local For Sale ads. Lots of Mission speakers, etc., available here, but no arms. There's been the odd one attached to a Mission deck, but for more money and hassle than I want to deal with. I'm leaning more and more toward the LMF-2... Need a generous belt of whiskey and time for a good think...:scratch:
walpurgis
30-11-2017, 23:38
Yes, good ones are getting harder to find and increasingly expensive. They seem to have all been snapped up. My fault I expect, I've been broadcasting their virtues for some time.
From a purely selfish point of view, I’ve never come across anyone using an LMF-2 on a TT2 before, so it’ll be interesting to see how well it works. Obviously it’s a very different proposition from the Regas, but if you want to explore the undoubted virtues of ‘70s high compliance cartridges it should be excellent.
Geoff, I'm sure a Mission would be great, but I don't think I've seen a single one for sale here in the many months that I've been scouting the local For Sale ads. Lots of Mission speakers, etc., available here, but no arms. There's been the odd one attached to a Mission deck, but for more money and hassle than I want to deal with. I'm leaning more and more toward the LMF-2... Need a generous belt of whiskey and time for a good think...:scratch:
Well I'll be darned. No sooner do I say that than a 774sm turns up on CAM. It's attached to a Mission 775 deck, mind you, but the owner is willing to sell it separately. I'd have to make up a new armboard for the TT2, as this arm is shorter than the Regas and uses a different mount, but that's easily done. So gents...? Worth pursuing? Is the 774sm really that much better than the LMF-2. Net cost would be higher, but I'd do it if it was unquestionably worthwhile.
(I think I already know what your answers will be :D)
From a purely selfish point of view, I’ve never come across anyone using an LMF-2 on a TT2 before, so it’ll be interesting to see how well it works. Obviously it’s a very different proposition from the Regas, but if you want to explore the undoubted virtues of ‘70s high compliance cartridges it should be excellent.
Just to refresh my memory, what are said virtues? No need to write an essay, but in a few words I'd be interested in hearing your take on this.
Best,
Svend
walpurgis
01-12-2017, 14:16
Well I'll be darned. No sooner do I say that than a 774sm turns up on CAM. It's attached to a Mission 775 deck, mind you, but the owner is willing to sell it separately. I'd have to make up a new armboard for the TT2, as this arm is shorter than the Regas and uses a different mount, but that's easily done. So gents...? Worth pursuing? Is the 774sm really that much better than the LMF-2.
When I mentioned the 774, I referred to the original. The SM is totally different.
This is the original 774.
http://i63.tinypic.com/9vkr4i.jpg
On one of my turntables I might add.
Ah yes, I see... Just compared the two on VE, and the SM version is 16g mass, whereas yours is only 5.5g. Huge difference. Not sure that the SM would work well with my cartridges. Thanks Geoff - good of you to point that out.
Nice TT by the way. Are you happy with it?
walpurgis
01-12-2017, 14:54
Nice TT by the way. Are you happy with it?
It sounds superb.
The early 774 utilises fluid damping and is compatible with cartridges of any compliance. The fluid damping can be varied to suit, or not used at all for high compliance cartridges. It's a very versatile and nice sounding arm.
Interesting arm. I'll go back to what I said previously, one doesn't see many of these here.
Likewise the Toshiba decks. One doesn't hear much said about them. All the talk around DD is about the Techies. There's an SR-355 for sale near me for cheap, said to be like new, stored in original box. Seems to be a lighter version of yours, but at 12kg not a lightweight.
walpurgis
01-12-2017, 15:14
The SR-370 is rather a heavyweight. Half as heavy again as a Techie.
Do you mean the SL-1200? I thought they were all around 12kg as well? I could be mistaken.
Re. the Toshibas, what's the stock tonearm on those like? The SR-355/370?
walpurgis
01-12-2017, 15:29
Re. the Toshibas, what's the stock tonearm on those like? The SR-355/370?
Couldn't say, not used a Toshiba arm. The SR-370's I've come across have not had arms on, just an SME type cut-out to mount one. Although I believe there was a version supplied with their own arm.
Just to refresh my memory, what are said virtues? No need to write an essay, but in a few words I'd be interested in hearing your take on this.
Best,
Svend
Firsty, from a purely mechanical point of view, the best of them (and I include the ZLM in there) track like there’s no tomorrow which gives a security and stability to the sound that you don’t get to the same extent with lower compliance carts. Detail retrieval and precision are strong points, along with level response, especially at the extremes. What you may not get to the same extent as the best MCs are the less measurable aspects of performance, by which I mean the portrayal of pace, rhythm and timing, and the ability to screw the last shivers and neck-tingles out of the emotion of a performance.
Armed with an R200 and an LMF-2, you have a door into the best of each world.
Going back to the Missions, I think you might have found something quite unusual. There was a number of different arms that carried the 774 designation. The original was a genius design by a very clever engineer named John Bicht. It’s combination of low mass and extreme rigidity, along with the versatility afforded by the damping arrangements, is finally overcoming its slightly home-spun appearance and building it a reputation as a bit of a giant killer. After the 774 came the 774LC (yes it does stand for Low Cost). This is a cheap and cheerful bog standard Jelco device of no distinction whatsoever. No idea why Mission went there. After that came the 774SM. This is a rare beast which was solidly and Britishly engineered by GB Engineering who also made the fabled Zeta arm and the subsequent near-mythical Mission Mechanic. It’s a medium to high mass device that majors on rigidity and mechanical integrity; a sort of British response to the Ittok, if you like. GB also manufactured a similar arm for Heybrook in the late 80s, but if you think hen’s teeth are rare...
Whether that 774SM is a good choice for you, I wouldn’t like to say. I still think that with the R200 and the LMF-2, you’d have a really nice pair of arms, each with very different virtues allowing you to get the most from the widest choice of cartridges..
Thank you Shane! I had a vague idea of the merits of high compl. cartridges and lightweight arms, but your explanation really highlights it perfectly. Well written! And much appreciated.
As for the 774sm, I think I will take a pass on it for now. You are quite right, it doesn't fit with the cartridges I have at present -- the 2M Bronze and Goldring 1022 -- and I really don't want to go cartridge shopping yet again just to suit this arm. I just sent a message to the fellow selling the LMF-2 and I'm going for a look and listen tomorrow morning. Will let you know how it goes... :)
BTW, there's a retailer in the US selling original ADC styli for the ZLM. And LP Gear has Jico ones for it too. Nice!
I'm very curious as to how the LMF will behave on the Heybrook. I have a suspicion that the RB300 was too heavy for it and didn't play nice with the suspension -- i.e. while the wand has a low-ish eff. mass, the entire arm is rather heavy. The R200 is a much lighter arm. Have you noticed anything similar with other arms?
Cheers,
Svend
walpurgis
01-12-2017, 21:39
Is this of interest? See last post (and whole thread).
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?53102-Mission-774-Arm&p=924449#post924449
Is this of interest? See last post (and whole thread).
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?53102-Mission-774-Arm&p=924449#post924449
Hmmm...thanks for that Geoff. I was tempted for about 5 minutes, then looked at the asking price from post #1 of a 774 in less than mint shape. As comparison, I am getting the LMF-2, and a ZLM cart, and a Rega Planar 2, for the same amount. And all are (apparently) in perfect condition, with no Customs duties to worry about :). Great idea, but I think I will pass. But it was very good of you point me there. I appreciate you thinking of me.
You know, if the 774's are that good, I can keep my eyes open for one here. But if I am smitten by the LMF arm, then I may just go on contentedly and happily listening to the Heybrook as it is. We'll see....:)
Best regards,
Svend
Guys, I picked up the LMF-2 yesterday! Attached to it was a very nice Rega Planar 2 in great shape. Bonus!
The arm seems to be in A-OK condition. Bearings all seem nice and tight, no binding. Very nice arm, BTW. I am going to LOVE the VTA adjust. Man, I hope this thing sounds good.
ZLM cartridge also seems just fine. The seller said he's checked out the stylus under a microscope or something, and claims there's lots of life left, which was good to hear.
The audition at his house didn't blow me away, but then he just plunked the deck on top of a tower speaker directly beside another speaker that was playing (a big boomy Klipsch), so undoubtedly not level and really not a great platform :rolleyes:. That, and I found out upon later inspection that the headshell fixing screw was loose. I will reserve judgement on the arm until it's properly set up on the Heybrook....
...which sadly won't be for at least another week or more, as I'm travelling on business this week and won't be home until the 10th earliest. Bugger! I really want to hear this arm.
As an aside, this guy had a rather nice system. Aside from the Klipsch speakers, he had a pair of Polk RTA 15 TL speakers which sounded very sweet indeed. Wonderful lively but natural sound for such big boxes. They were being driven by an Onkyo Integra M-504/P-308 pre-/power amp combo. I was very impressed! Superb clarity and detail. I would like to have stayed and listened for a while longer.
In the meantime here are some pics of the arm...
hifi_dave
04-12-2017, 12:37
Back in the good ol' days, we were given a box of those arms by the distributor of that time. We gave them away on Linns, Michells etc as a means of helping customers to buy their desired turntable.
Installed the LMF-2 arm tonight. Got it all set up and adjusted. All went well until the very last step -- setting the anti-skate. Wouldn't you know it, the bias adjuster mechanism is buggered. I had turned it to zero to balance the arm, and on turning it back up the range again a little nylon thread popped out of the adjuster dial. Damn! Double damn! :steam: Just my luck. The arm is unplayable...it just skates straight across the record and won't even stay in a groove. Now I have to yank the deck out yet again :rolleyes:, take off the arm and open up the AS mech to see if I can fix it.
This fussing around with tonearms on this deck is getting tiresome to say the least. Serves me right I suppose, for buying old gear. :mental:
If anyone has ever done an anti-skate repair on an ADC arm and has any tips on how to do this, please post back here. I'd be most grateful.
Best,
Svend
Now that’s bad luck! Hope it’s a straightforward fix. At least there isn’t a toothed belt in there!
The AS in this arm might be fubar....not sure yet, but as it appears right now it seems beyond my skill to fix it. I took it apart tonight for a look-see. It works by a very fine nylon thread attached to the setting dial which is in turn connected to the arm pivot post. There's a small coil spring tied in the middle of said thread. Well, the thread broke just at a recess in the arm post and there's no way I'll be able to tie another string to it. The attachment point is embedded into the aluminum post, also with no way to just tie another string on there.
I'm going to have to have a good long think on this one to see if I can figure out how to jury rig something. I might have to go with an external string-and-weight thingy...not sure yet. I'll check with a couple of techs as well to see if anyone has worked on these arms and could do it for me. Audio Origami comes first to mind.
In the meantime I'll put the RB300 back on there for now, as it's the only arm I presently have that's functional.
What a pain in the rear...
Best,
Svend
A quick update here... After contacting a couple of techs, neither of whom wanted to touch this job, I managed to fix the broken AS thread on the LMF-2 arm by using a short length of nylon fishing line, a small dab of epoxy putty (JB Weld Plastic Weld) to attach it to the recess in the swivelling arm post, and some regular quick-set epoxy to glue the other end to the remained of the broken thread on the end of the spring. A fiddly and sticky bit of work to be sure, barely within the ability of my big clumsy Viking hands to manage, but I got it done in the end. I'm glad it worked, as I really didn't want to toss this arm after all I went through to get it, never mind the expense.
As I'm too busy at the moment (it's that season, isn't it? :)) to mount the arm on the Heybrook, the listening tests will have to wait until later next week when things settle down. In the meantime I have mounted the brand new Goldring 1022 on the RB300 and have been running these on the deck for the last few days. I must say I am impressed with this combo. Even though the 1022 is not even broken in yet (maybe 6 hours playing time), it's sounding very nice indeed. Better match for this arm, it seems, than the 2M Bronze -- fuller, more immediate, not so distant and thin. I had nearly written off the RB300 as being dull sounding, as others have noted, but this cartridge really seems to make it come alive. I'm going to leave them on the Heybrook for a while and just enjoy the tunes, breaking in the cartridge with Christmas music :D
Best,
Svend
Just a quick note to say how good the Goldring 1022 / RB300 combination is on the Heybrook! All those who've commented here on the good synergy between Rega arms and the Goldring 1000 series were absolutely correct. It sounds excellent. A much better match for this arm (on this deck) than the 2M Bronze was. Far more dynamic, warmer, fuller sound. Bigger soundstage, richer midrange. No less detailed than the Bronze either. Biggest gain of all is the lack of sibilance over the Bronze, esp. on some older jazz recordings with brushed cymbals -- it was just high-frequency haze, but now it actually has some definition and clarity to it. Wonderful.
This combo ticks all the boxes of what I've been after with vinyl.
I've got about 20 hours on this new cartridge, so I don't think it might even be broken in yet. If it gets even better I'll be a happy lad. I'm in no great hurry to put the ADC arm on the Heybrook just yet....simply enjoying the music for now from this wonderful turntable.
Best wishes to all for a Happy New Year.
Svend
Once you’re up and running, there’s a lot to be said for just leaving things be and getting really familiar with what you’ve got. Take your time, forget about evaluating the turntable and start evaluating your record collection. If that’s an exciting prospect, then you’ve got it about right. Don’t change anything until you’ve got a really good mental platform for comparison. You’ll often find that the biggest realisations about how the system is performing come when you’re only half-listening to it.
Very perceptive Shane. I pretty much reached that point a couple of weeks ago, where I'd had enough of fiddling and fussing with tonearms and cartridges and generally tweaking the deck. I was missing the pleasure of just listening to my favourite vinyl. When the first notes started playing from this latest 1022/RB300 combo I new I'd hit on a good fit and would finally be able to just sit back and enjoy for a while. Ahhh...bliss...
Great advice and insight. Thanks for the reality check :-)
Best,
Svend
Once you’re up and running, there’s a lot to be said for just leaving things be and getting really familiar with what you’ve got. Take your time, forget about evaluating the turntable and start evaluating your record collection. If that’s an exciting prospect, then you’ve got it about right. Don’t change anything until you’ve got a really good mental platform for comparison. You’ll often find that the biggest realisations about how the system is performing come when you’re only half-listening to it.
i completely agree shane,i swear i was more happy when i had a basic turntable set up,it seems with me that the more you go up the more everything has to be dead right or it sounds off. these days i seem to spend more time buggering about with it than listening,i think i need to re think my vinyl front end again :(
I hear ya Jamie. I'm pretty sure that the Heybrook is not going to be that kind of turntable which will have me fussing over it constantly. Once set up properly I expect it will be trouble free and need minimal upkeep and readjusting. I'm pretty much there wrt. the deck itself with restoration and all that. Now I look forward to settling on a good tonearm/cartridge match and then just forgetting about all that and simply enjoying the music. I will likely do a couple of more things to better isolate it, but I'd have to do that with any deck, not just the Heybrook.
Hope you find a good deck that will suit your needs.
Cheers,
Svend
ah well the deck is sorted,im happy with that,ive just had a run of cartridge/arm troubles.
ah well the deck is sorted,im happy with that,ive just had a run of cartridge/arm troubles.
Tell me about it! Same problems here... :scratch::rolleyes: Of the three tonearms I've tried on the Heybrook, the last two have gone kaput before I've even had a chance to properly play them. Back to the old reliable RB300 now and enjoying the calm. Hope you get your arm issues figured out.
Best,
Svend
cool,i used my tt2 with an ittok,that combination worked very well.
Good one Jamie -- I'll keep that in mind. I'm hoping that the ADC arm and cartridge will turn out to be a winning combo, considering all the trouble I've taken to get it and then repair it. If not, then oh well (shrug), at least the present RB300/1022 combo is sounding good so I'll not be without a good vinyl source. Now that the holidays are over and I have a bit more time, I will look at doing another arm swap at some point later this month to see how the ADC sounds.
I read part of your Zeta thread. Frustrating it must be. Hope you get it singing again soon...
Svend
im sure i will,the zeta is going off to j7 at audio origami for a health check and re-wire tomorrow.
In good hands there. He should get you sorted out. I will probably send him my R200 arm for a rewire as well - despite the shipping distance and all that, he's the only one I would trust to do a proper job on this arm. And the most reasonable fees too.
Idlewithnodrive
02-01-2018, 20:39
Once you’re up and running, there’s a lot to be said for just leaving things be and getting really familiar with what you’ve got. Take your time, forget about evaluating the turntable and start evaluating your record collection. If that’s an exciting prospect, then you’ve got it about right. Don’t change anything until you’ve got a really good mental platform for comparison. You’ll often find that the biggest realisations about how the system is performing come when you’re only half-listening to it.
Somebody's stolen Shane and replaced him with a hi-fi philosopher (though being hi-fi, s'pose he should be an Oracle, really :) ). Best advice I've read and so true.
Somebody's stolen Shane and replaced him with a hi-fi philosopher.
Muffled cries are heard from trussed up figure in a shed full of old turntable bits in a Devon back yard. An unknown waffler makes off with an evil laugh and an iPhone 7, a page from AOS visible on the screen. Clouds scud across a moonlight sky. Wolves howl. Who is this intruder?
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02404/penguin-with-pisto_2404084k.jpg
What a difference a belt makes. I recently received a new original Heybrook belt from Guy at Pure Sound (thanks Guy! Great service; very prompt), and finally got around to putting it on last night. I couldn't believe the difference. Soundstage seemed to almost double in breadth and depth, imaging much better, vocals more silky-smooth, bass tighter....I could go on, but you get the picture. The belt that was on the TT2 when I got it was clearly looser than the new one, although it seemed in perfectly good shape (perhaps a non-Heybrook belt of wrong size?). The new one is much more snug, and has had the added benefit of pulling the subchassis into better alignment so that the armboard isn't so close to the plinth any more (it was almost touching).
This turntable just keeps sounding better and better all the time. I love it!
Next steps:
- swap the RB300/Goldring for the ADC LMF-2/ZLM (very curious about this);
- get the R200 arm rewired and try it again (I recently chatted with Dan Santoni / Blackdog about this, and he is willing to take this job on so I'll bring the arm to him soon; I will then decide which arm/cart combo to keep);
- improving the isolation somehow, if possible (I'm using Michell Tenderfeet under it right now that seem to be working OK; the armoire cabinet is probably my worst culprit, I suspect);
- replace the thin pressboard bottom cover with a thicker plywood plate (perhaps I'm wrong, but I can't help thinking that the thin pressboard is not benefiting the sound).
Any comments or suggestions on the above most welcome.
Regards,
Svend
Some people have a view that some decks sound better with the baseboard off (health and safety permitting). I have never tried that with the TT2 but have tried it with others such as LP12 and AR XA. Not convinced that there are any real benefits.
I have usually used my TT2 on a spiked Alphason table which works fine.
Hi Clive,
I've not tried leaving the base plate off, but maybe I'll do that and see what happens. Considering how many times I've yanked this deck out of the cabinet for one reason or another (arm swaps, usually), having no base plate would be handy. OTOH, my thinking re. putting a thick plywood base on there was to stiffen the plinth. I see that a lot of people are doing this with direct and idler drive decks, but whether this would improve a suspended table in any way I don't know. The plinth on the TT2 is already plenty solid and well braced as it is. In any case, it's a quick and simple thing to experiment with -- I have lots of scrap plywood lying around the workshop so could rough one in just for a listen and then finish it nicely if it's a winner. The rest of my system is sufficiently revealing that I'm certain I would hear it if any improvement came about.
Cheers,
Svend
Because the TT2 plinth isn’t a hollow box with a resonant chamber inside it’s less likely that changing the base plate will make a significant difference but, as ever, give it a try and see what happens. I think you’ll get much more mileage out of experimenting with feet and support structures.
Shane, I see The Silent One has released you from captivity :D.
Sensible advice, as always. And I am, as hinted at, a bit doubtful of the benefits of a stiffer base plate on a suspended deck. If anything, as Clive suggests, just leaving it off might be better. In any case it's worth a quick couple of saw cuts on some old plywood to see if it makes any difference. But I'll figure out the arm question first, then better isolation, then the base plate, in that order.
As a general comment, I'm really curious to see how much better I can make this deck. Everything I do (almost), even little things, makes an audible change...some for the better, some not. Remarkable. As of right now, with the arm and cartridge that are on there, it's sounding so good that I might just come back to it as my long term setup. That Goldring is really making the RB300 sing. Terrific stuff.
Cheers,
Svend
With the recent spell of cold weather and lousy ski conditions, I was house-bound this weekend and a bit bored, so decided to swap arms on the Heybrook and mount the LMF-2 on there. After a lot of fiddling with setup and much tweaking of VTA, I finally got it making some sweet sounds. Shane, Geoff - you guys were right, this is a very, very good sounding arm and cartridge. I think this is a keeper! Just wonderful. Did I mention this turntable keeps sounding better and better?
Compared to the RB300/1022, the ADC combo sounds more cohesive, whereas the Rega/GR pair had a slightly more disjointed sound across the spectrum. The latter is definitely more punchy and dynamic; while the LMF-2/ZLM has a natural, easy flow to it. Soundstage and imaging are excellent.
The ZLM is definitely sensitive to VTA. It took me a while to get this dialed:
+ arm tail high - lots of air and bloom, huge soundstage, very open sound; but way too much sibilance and smearing of transients (if that's the right term to use); bass bit thin too.
+ arm/cart parallel w. LP - a bit "meh" sounding, nothing special, kinda boring, still a bit of sibilance, but much improved.
+ arm tail down a wee bit - bingo! sounds great....tight bass, delicate highs, full midrange, almost no sibilance, imaging and soundstage excellent.
I'll keep playing with minor VTA adjustments and bump up the VTF a bit too just to really fine tune it. But so far I am nothing but impressed. Well worth all the effort and hassle getting the arm and then fixing that damned AS adjuster (which works OK, btw).
Thanks for encouraging me to go after this arm. I'm very happy I did.
Best,
Svend
Great stuff, Svend! Nice to hear that your findings are pretty much what I was hoping. Compared to the RB300/1022, it’s a completely different sort of wonderful.
Quite so, Shane. Not knocking the RB300/1022 combo -- it sounds outstanding. Not necessarily better or worse, just different. It's simply that the ADC combo sounds so sweet, more integrated and together, if you know what I mean. I really do need a few more weeks of listening time with the ADCs to really get a good sense of them. You were quite right in your previous post in that one often hears more when one is only half-listening.
Don't forget, I still have a Rega Planar 3 sitting in storage, waiting for the basement listening room to get renovated and the second system to be installed there. And then there's the Planar 2 that the LMF-2 arm came on, which my daughter will get. Whatever arms I don't use on the Heybrook will go on these two decks. And with a Goldring 1022 and Ortofon 2M Bronze to choose from, the sound shouldn't be too shabby from either one :). In other words, the RB300/1022 will stay in the family one way or another.
Best,
Svend
And we haven’t even introduced you to moving coils yet! ��
And we haven’t even introduced you to moving coils yet! ��
Good Lord! That seems like an endless spiral of spending, like an addiction, considering what I see other vinylheads doing... But I have thought about it and may go down that road one day. I'd really like to hear one before I commit the money to that little experiment. So send me one and I'll let you know how I like it ;). Seriously, for the time being I have other audio things to spend my budget on -- daughter's new system; DAC for myself; etc.. Besides, I've reached the point with the Heybrook that all I have left to do is little tweaks and adjustments. This deck is sounding so good now that I've pretty much reached the point where I can (finally!) just sit back and enjoy the music. Not sure I want to open the MC door just yet...:)
Sorry Svend, just pulling your leg! By the sound of it you’ve reached a point now where it’s time to just sit back and enjoy the music.
Quite so! A few more fine tuning tweaks to the Heybrook, and then work on better isolation, and then I think I'll be content. Then it'll be on to the next turntable project -- the Planar 3 -- and getting it all tuned up and tweaked. All good fun!
Cheers,
Svend
Shane, did you want me to keep you apprised of changes and tweaks that I make to the TT2? I plan to play around with various isolation methods, platter mats, damping the bottom plate, etc.. If you're interested in hearing about them, or think other TT2 owners would benefit, then let me know and I'd be happy to post intermittent updates here.
And now a quick question: since replacing the belt with a new, tighter one, I find the motor is having a much harder time spinning up the platter. I've taken to giving it a little helping hand and getting it moving before switching the motor on. Is this normal, or a sign that the motor is losing it's gusto?
i dont think thats normal,mine certainly didnt have trouble spinning up with a new belt.
Hi Jamie -- thanks for the reply. Just to be clear, it does get up to speed without assistance, but it takes about twice as long as before with the old, looser belt. My concern is that the motor is working harder to get things moving so I give it a hand so as not to cause damage. Is the belt perhaps too tight? It looks like the motor mount bolts are in slots that allow some adjustment of belt tension. I believe the tech who worked on the PSU also adjusted the motor position, but with the old belt.
does the belt run dead in the centre of the pulley on the crown?
i may be wrong here but i dont think the tightness of the belt has any thing to do with how the motor gets up to speed,apart from if its slipping of coarse.
Yes, the belt is riding on the crown of the pulley, not on the tapered lower part (see the pics attached).
Re. slipping, if anything the tighter belt should have less likelihood of slipping, I would think. This behaviour is coincidental with putting the tighter belt on. Odd...
Edit: I checked the motor mount bolts, and they are about half-way along the adjustment slots. Lots of room to make the belt tighter or looser, if need be.
Firstly, yes I’d be very interested to hear about any experiments. AoS seems to be turning into the go-to place for the TT2, so the more we share experience the better.
as to the motor spin-up time, I’ve found this myself before now. With a looser belt, the belt slips on the motor pulley on startup allowing the motor to reach working speed almost instantly, whereas with a tighter belt the motor speed is held back by the inertia of the platter. It is a characteristic of synchronous motors that they only develop max torque at working speed, so if the motor is held back it will only develop a small amount of torque and thus will only accelerate the platter very slowly. It’s a bit like letting the clutch in on a manual car without giving it enough throttle. Once it reaches working speed, normal working is resumed. You may also notice that the chassis jumps about a bit as the motor ”bites” when it gets close to speed. If you want to restore a smooth start up, make sure the motor pulley is really clean as it may well have rubber residues from the old belt which will make it much grippier. A light dusting of the belt with talcum powder can also help.
Firstly, yes I’d be very interested to hear about any experiments. AoS seems to be turning into the go-to place for the TT2, so the more we share experience the better.
Happy to do that. I'll try to be as objective as possible, and not just post something that's merely "different" as if it were an improvement. Hopefully my keen ears (not really ;), just flattering myself) and critical mind (yes, most definitely) will keep it on the up-'n-up.
As for the motor spin up, sounds like this is normal behaviour then. No harm done to the motor? Burn out of any kind? If there's a loud bang and the platter goes flying out the window, followed by a plume of smoke, I suppose that's a subtle hint that the motor is a wee bit overstressed :scratch::D
Seriously, good to know that there's nothing amiss here. Counter-intuitive that talcing up the belt helps it; one would think that it would promote slipping. But I've read this before so I guess it works. I think all I have is baby powder, not pure talcum. I'll pop round to the drug store and get some.
Thanks Shane! Always appreciate the help.
Best,
Svend
Yes, keep all the TT2 info coming - the wealth of TT2 knowledge on AoS was one of the reasons I joined. I could never understand why the TT2 didn't get mentioned much on any of the other forums.
My own TT2 is away with Steve at Magna Audio (Speedy.Steve on here I think) having a new arm board made and fitted. I could never quite get everything level and after reading of various problems people have experienced with warping I thought I'd take the plunge. He's also doing a heavy counter weight so I can position it closer to the pivot. I'll report back once I've collected it and got everything set up again.
This is something that’s always puzzled me. I can’t imagine that an arm board would ever warp in normal domestic use, so I’ve always supposed that this problem was due to an error in manufacturing, probably when the top surface was being sanded flat prior to painting. If you get a chance it would be interesting to measure the thickness of the faulty board on each edge. Should be a little les than 18mm, and of course the same on each edge.
On my original measured just now with a tape measure it is a little over 17mm at the rear arm end and a little over 18mm at the front. The slope seemed to get worse ie around 2+mm with arm installed and platter levelled though some of that may have been due to my set up.
Yes, keep all the TT2 info coming - the wealth of TT2 knowledge on AoS was one of the reasons I joined. I could never understand why the TT2 didn't get mentioned much on any of the other forums.
My own TT2 is away with Steve at Magna Audio (Speedy.Steve on here I think) having a new arm board made and fitted. I could never quite get everything level and after reading of various problems people have experienced with warping I thought I'd take the plunge. He's also doing a heavy counter weight so I can position it closer to the pivot. I'll report back once I've collected it and got everything set up again.
Sounds good Steve, I'll do that. Maybe we should start another thread dedicated to all things TT2? A repository of knowledge about this deck -- tweaks, mods, common problems and fixes, stuff that works and stuff that doesn't. I'd be happy to start the thread, but perhaps Shane should have the honour of starting it given his history with the TT2. Let me know what you guys think of that...
Clive, Steve -- re. your arm boards, that really is odd that they warped, although from Clive's msmt. it sounds like it was sanded improperly and not warped. As Shane said, it must have been something in manufacturing. Probably yours were made on a Friday afternoon... :)
I checked out mine, and it's fine. If I did anything to it, I would replace it only to put a nice wood veneer board on there to -- something out of a sustainable domestic hardwood, a blond wood like curly or birdseye maple would look great contrasted against the black finish of the plinth. Future project....:)
if you do,make sure you veneer both sides as it will warp.
Thanks Jamie. Good advice. I wouldn't have thought plywood would do that, but better to be safe, and easy enough to do. Shane mentioned that the original armboard was made of two pieces of 9mm birch ply bonded together, and that had the best sound after much testing. I would make it the same way, but with the addition of the veneer. Come to think of it, I could just veneer the original board, as it seems to be nice and flat. But that will be a project for next winter -- I've got enough audio stuff and other house renos to do now to keep me plenty busy.
Cheers,
Svend
Maybe we should start another thread dedicated to all things TT2? A repository of knowledge about this deck -- tweaks, mods, common problems and fixes, stuff that works and stuff that doesn't. I'd be happy to start the thread, but perhaps Shane should have the honour of starting it given his history with the TT2. Let me know what you guys think of that...
Thanks for your kind words Svend. There does seem to be quite a lot of interest these days. I’m a bit tied up at the moment but if anyone has any suggestions about how to put it together I’ll give it some thought over the weekend.
walpurgis
18-01-2018, 22:53
Maybe we should start another thread dedicated to all things TT2? A repository of knowledge about this deck -- tweaks, mods, common problems and fixes, stuff that works and stuff that doesn't. I'd be happy to start the thread, but perhaps Shane should have the honour of starting it given his history with the TT2. Let me know what you guys think of that...
Never owned one, but I certainly think that's a good idea. The TT2 seems a well liked turntable. I reckon such a thread may qualify for being made a 'sticky', so it remains in sight. Probably best in the 'Past Masters' section I think.
Geoff -- if the mods are willing to make it a sticky then that would be great. As you say, keeps it in view.
Shane -- my thoughts were simply to create a thread that is a repository of info and experience with the TT2, with contributions by owners regarding all manner of helpful and insightful things. Such as:
- tweaks and mods (e.g. isolation feet; bottom plate damping/removal)
- maintenance (e.g. proper bearing oil to use; replacement parts sources)
- tuning (e.g. suspension; belt tension)
- refurbishing (e.g. plinth refinishing; platter polishing)
- known problem spots (e.g. armboard thickness as Clive's and Steve's; PSU issues)
- known good arm/cartridge combos (although this may not be turntable-specific, but if it's a synergy thing then perhaps yes)
- a place for owners to post pictures of their decks :)
I realize this may be asking a lot of you up front wrt. to a higher level of input and time, but in the long run it would likely be a time saver, as you could just point new owners to the sticky and have them read on their own (just thinking of how much time you've taken to patiently answer all my questions over the past few months :) ). I'd certainly be a willing contributor, and I'm sure a few others here would be also. Also, I know there are quite a few TT2 owners in Canada who are members of the CAM forum (as am I, but not very active) -- I could post a link there to point them here to our ongoing knowledge base, and hopefully contribute their own experience.
Anyway, those are a few thoughts for now. Hope this helps...
Best,
Svend
walpurgis
18-01-2018, 23:29
Instead of worrying too much about inclusions, I'd suggest a thread outlining the basics and then letting it develop with input from all interested members. As has happened with the 'Techiepedia'.
Yes, that's just what I was thinking. Casual, occasional posts by members, nothing formal or rigid...let it evolve and grow. After a year or so it would end up being a great resource.
Ok, I’ll start a thread later today and put in links to this thread and the others that have been posted here. Geoff, if you’d like to make it a sticky, that would be brilliant!
Thread started!
The Heybrook TT2 Info Thread:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?56271-The-Heybrook-TT2-info-thread&p=938809#post938809
Thanks Shane! And thanks to Geoff for making it a sticky.
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