View Full Version : Is it me or is Hi-Fi getting even more over priced ?
I think this might be the engineer in me but these days when I walk past Audio-T and look at the prices of some Hi-Fi kit I do a double take. If the price is 'reasonable' the quality and finish seems very lacking compared to hi-fi of past generations on closer examination.
Example... I have been looking at this bit of electronics
https://goo.gl/images/kT6Y25
which is a shear monster of a build in terms of materials, finish and electronics both analogue and digital if you see it in the flesh, cost £1800 at the most from a high street music store. Then I compare to stuff like the Chord Dave dac at £8500 from audio-t high street which looks pretty but I would find hard to believe it has had more technical design input and certainly has less materials and construction effort. Ok the Chord is an extreme example maybe but then look at most Hi-Fi in the same price range to other markets and its usually the same.
This trend kind of reminds me of apple and the latest iPhone nonsense. Some might find this funny.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gwlQlMLbk
Is it really me ? Sign of getting old ?
Quite a few good products from the Chinese market although many are poor. People have probs with it but they used to have probs with Skoda
Quite a few good products from the Chinese market although many are poor. People have probs with it but they used to have probs with Skoda
Yes, there are a few gems on ebay even in kit form which seems great prices. Also some of the hi-end amp like BADA etc look good value until you factor in the shipping and duty costs.
Spectral Morn
11-10-2017, 21:02
I do struggle at times to see how some items cost what they cost.
Sherwood
11-10-2017, 21:11
I do struggle at times to see how some items cost what they cost.
It's not about costing what they cost: it's about market segmentation by vendors by differentiating products to extract the maximum amount from a distinct demographic! In other words, it's possible to charge prices unrelated to production costs or performance because some people are willing to pay a premium for goods that differentiate themselves as consumers. Vanity purchases or conspicuous consumption!
Check out the work of Thorstein Veblen; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorstein_Veblen
Geoff
Spectral Morn
11-10-2017, 21:20
It's not about costing what they cost: it's about market segmentation by vendors by differentiating products to extract the maximum amount from a distinct demographic! In other words, it's possible to charge prices unrelated to production costs or performance because some people are willing to pay a premium for goods that differentiate themselves as consumers. Vanity purchases or conspicuous consumption!
Check out the work of Thorstein Veblen; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorstein_Veblen
Geoff
I am aware of that.
Sherwood
11-10-2017, 21:30
What I should have added is that I believe that the growth of the super expensive hifi market is the result of increasing inequalities in income and wealth. Twenty five years ago there were just too few consumers able to spend the equivalent of a luxury car on a music system.
Geoff
The psychology of vanity is the largest growth area in my opinion.
Look at the fleet of new very similar SUVs which have appeared on the market over the last year, all very similar in appearance, vying for purchase, and probably never to be used for their intended design purpose.
They will however allow the buyer to feel superior and smug when viewed in public.
Sherwood
11-10-2017, 22:28
I don't think that vanity or vanity purchases are new. Indeed, in class ridden Britain there is a long history of the middle classes aping the consumption patterns of the upper classes, only for the working classes to ape the behaviours and practices of the middle classes. I think what is new is for a significant number of consumers to have such huge disposable incomes that they are able to differentiate their superior wealth so markedly. I would guess that in the 70s and 80s, exotic foreign holidays were the way of keeping ahead of the Joneses. "Chelsea tractors" do seem to have an appeal in some circles. In some audiophile circles the modern equivalent seems to be to spend the equivalent on a hifi on what it would cost to buy a small house "up north".
Geoff
In some audiophile circles the modern equivalent seems to be to spend the equivalent on a hifi on what it would cost to buy a small house "up north".
Geoff
That reminded me of something my late Friend used to say. I am not paying more than I bought my house for even if it was 20 years ago. I think many products sell us an idea or image. Look at the Vinyl craze atm. Many are buying even though they don't have a TT and record companies plus artists know this so cash in and we get inflated prices.
Haselsh1
12-10-2017, 06:47
Items largely cost what they do due to the huge dealer margins and that is why I largely buy second hand whenever I can. At least that way the margin has been paid by someone else. Also of course it pays to buy second hand face to face and not through a dealer.
A lot of new cars "sold" are in fact leased on PCP contracts. This enables those that could have only afforded a Trabant to buy top of the range cars. They are unlikely to ever own the car as this Telegraph article points out, and they will pay through the nose for the privilege. However it allows them to swank with like minded lemmings for whom being seen to have it all is everything.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/10683988/Is-PCP-finance-a-good-deal-in-the-long-term.html
Surprised no one has done leasing of high end audio.
There is a saying that goes 'people pay for the price', which is especially true in the Far East i.e. monetary value directly associated with performance, how can a £1000 amp possibly sound better than a £10,000 one etc.
Prices go up because there is a demand, also to limit it, but there is another bonus of smaller-scale production i.e. you don't need to sell 10x £200 DACs, 1x £2k DAC will do. Some manufacturers I think are fairer than others, Exposure and Rega spring to mind, but there is also a massive amount of audiophool stuff out there.
Another thing I think is not mentioned enough is craftmanship, especially of the minimal school - the reason some gear sounds good is because of the lack of components, and the talents of the designer to fine-tune and get the most out of very simple circuits, which are much more sensitive to component tuning. All of this takes time and experience! Look inside a 47 Lab component, some LFD gear etc. & price / materials comparison goes out of the window.
Manicatel
12-10-2017, 07:29
There sure is some very expensive gear about, in hifi and in the car world.
Dealer margins? They may seem pretty high, but I don't see that many hifishop owners driving around in Bugattis or Ferraris, so I don't think they're raking it in.
The margins in designer clothes is higher.
To balance that out, you can get easily get a nice system for £1k from new. I don't think thats excessive & even cheaper than that, a small denon dm41 that streams music with a pair of e.g. Q acoustic 3020's can make an enjoyable listen.
I do perceive the income gap between the rich & the poor widening though, but thats a whole different argument.
All the posts here since my last are right, and help us to define the state of affairs and increase our understanding of what I see as a predatory economic paradigm, more concerned with 'churn' than the pursuit of real progress, quality and value for money.
I find this last 'sick' for reasons of morality and destruction of the planet, but at least this form of discussion allows us to understand the attempts at manipulation.
We must seek self possession to live effectively, and the old rule "Possession is nine tenths of the law" is one I modelled a parallel to in the 80s, which is;
Self possession is nine tenths of achievement.
Most Hi-Fi guys care about their equipment, and look after it, this enabling second hand buyers much choice with relatively little concern, and it also will have gone through the first part of the 'washbucket curve' and so be free from manufacturing problems.
More power to authenticity, and the smarmy suited money oriented salesmen (P Floyd) can go and wither.
The selling of 'Hi-Fi jewellery' is well understood now, and much is aimed at multi millionaires who want, well, jewellery to go with their pictures in their great mansions, but the sound quality/money graph is not linear.
The price comparison between music industry pricing and HiFi equipment is just embarrassing for the HiFi industry. I'm using a Berhringer USB 24/192 ADC/DAC with two inputs, high quality microphone preamps, and four DAC outputs, it costs £65 and sounds great!
Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
Sherwood
12-10-2017, 10:07
Yes, demand is at the heart of the matter. In economics, demand is defined as willingness to pay (wtp) backed by ability to pay (atp). The growing trend towards super expensive hifi is in my view more to do with changes in ability to pay. For any commodity there will be some consumers willing to pay more than others. Producers exploit this by offering differentiated products that allow them to maximise revenues by extracting the maximum that all consumers are willing to pay. In order to sell at the higher price points they need to imbue those products with some exclusive qualities or some attributes that reflect favourably on the purchaser. In the past, expensive hifi was marketed (at a largely male audience) on the basis of sex and aspirational lifestyles. It is a shock even now to look back at some of the marketing examples from the 70's and 80's. Marketing is more subtle and more insidious today and appears to be focused on the exclusiveness of the product and the fact that few can afford it. Adverts emphasize the rarity of the materials used and the fact that production is limited to a few units. Ultimately, this is only possible because of the growth in the numbers of super rich able to support the growth of an elite audiophile market. Yes, there are some "audiophiles" who are not so wealthy but who prioritise elite hifi products over almost all other purchases (e.g. housing, cars, travel etc). Indeed the ability to sell these ultra products is less related to their performance and more to the fact that they are beyond the means of the masses!
Geoff
Fancy hotels and shops being the biggy, and possibly the most vain
Look inside a 47 Lab component, some LFD gear etc. & price / materials comparison goes out of the window.
With regard to 47 Labs they found that a cheap (around a £fiver)readily available op-amp sounded really good. They teamed it with what was possibly hand-picked components and sold them for a loooot of money. When the secret was out, the hoi polloi were able to build one for themselves for relatively peanuts and so the Gainclone was born. I have made several for around £100 each. Do they sound better or worse than the original?
RothwellAudio
12-10-2017, 12:05
Another thing I think is not mentioned enough is craftmanship, especially of the minimal school - the reason some gear sounds good is because of the lack of components, and the talents of the designer to fine-tune and get the most out of very simple circuits, which are much more sensitive to component tuning. All of this takes time and experience! Look inside a 47 Lab component, some LFD gear etc. & price / materials comparison goes out of the window.
With regard to 47 Labs they found that a cheap (around a £fiver)readily available op-amp sounded really good. They teamed it with what was possibly hand-picked components and sold them for a loooot of money. When the secret was out, the hoi polloi were able to build one for themselves for relatively peanuts and so the Gainclone was born. I have made several for around £100 each. Do they sound better or worse than the original?
Yes, I agree that there's a skill in producing a good sounding circuit but it doesn't have to result in an expensive circuit. I too think that 47 Labs just made very conventional op-amp circuits taken straight from the manufacturer's application notes and then added extreme amounts of marketing nonsense to justify incredibly high prices. The early examples weren't even well constructed.
The price comparison between music industry pricing and HiFi equipment is just embarrassing for the HiFi industry. I'm using a Berhringer USB 24/192 ADC/DAC with two inputs, high quality microphone preamps, and four DAC outputs, it costs £65 and sounds great!
Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
Thats what opened my eyes and ears tbh. When I see some pro audio gear with complex electronics built like a tank such as a synth or even some neat £60 196K 24 bit usb dac with amazing sound and performance then look at some Hi-Fi gear it looks seriously warped. Has the Hi-Fi industry changed from being solely about the pursuit of audio perfection into more about designer gear.
Yes, I agree that there's a skill in producing a good sounding circuit but it doesn't have to result in an expensive circuit. I too think that 47 Labs just made very conventional op-amp circuits taken straight from the manufacturer's application notes and then added extreme amounts of marketing nonsense to justify incredibly high prices. The early examples weren't even well constructed.
It’s easy to scoff at the simplicity, but there was more to it than nicking an application note circuit, lots of unusual design practices at the time, the choice of terminals, PCB layout and transformers for example. It was all about the shortest possible signal path, taken to the extreme, and at the time this was pretty groundbreaking, which without 47 Lab, today’s Gainclone scene wouldn’t even exist.
...very expensive yes, but didn’t stop them from selling well.
EDIT: I think this quote from Pedja Rogic is relevant, and also helps explain why such simple circuits can have such different sound:
"It takes some time to understand this simple fact about modern linear power amp chips design: the chip is not the limiting factor. It can be anything. The limit is design around it."
RothwellAudio
12-10-2017, 12:41
^ I beg to differ. I would put all that into the "marketing nonsense" category.
BTW, I would argue that 47 Labs' circuits are not simple at all, just cheap/simple to build. The power op-amps they use are extremely complex internally, but that was all the op-amp manufacturer's work.
^ I beg to differ. I would put all that into the "marketing nonsense" category.
It's OK to have different opinions. :D
Sherwood
12-10-2017, 13:02
With regard to 47 Labs they found that a cheap (around a £fiver)readily available op-amp sounded really good. They teamed it with what was possibly hand-picked components and sold them for a loooot of money. When the secret was out, the hoi polloi were able to build one for themselves for relatively peanuts and so the Gainclone was born. I have made several for around £100 each. Do they sound better or worse than the original?
The Gainclone amp is an interesting example. You are correct in that the performance/cost index for this is very high: the components can be bought for around £100. However, the performance/price index is also high. Even though 47 Labs were charging a lot for their version, the product was never in the super expensive category. I think the reason it sold well was that even though the price was many times the production cost, its performance was still competitive with much higher priced products. I think the simplicity also appealed to many early adopters. Of course, once the news got out that the design could be replicated for much less, the price could not be sustained.
I bought one from Audiosector in Canada on a visit to Toronto. http://www.audiosector.com/chassis_patek2_amp.shtml
The Audiosector Patek v2 is superbly made and I don't think that the mark up on the finished product was outrageous. What I liked about this product was that the vendor also sold a kit with custom designed boards for around £100. Yes, I bought a kit a well, though it is still in its original box.
Geoff
Haselsh1
12-10-2017, 13:15
No one prices an item at what it is worth. Everything is priced according to what the market will sustain.
Sherwood
12-10-2017, 13:59
No one prices an item at what it is worth. Everything is priced according to what the market will sustain.
I think that often, products are designed to a price point that factors in expected margins. This in turn determines the quality of components used.
Otherwise, how might one explain the plethora of products priced at ***99.99?
Geoff
No one prices an item at what it is worth. Everything is priced according to what the market will sustain.
To be more accurate that particular sector of market they are aiming at will sustain.
Sherwood
12-10-2017, 15:58
To be more accurate that particular sector of market they are aiming at will sustain.
Although it not unusual for manufacturers to introduce a product at a high price to extract maximum revenues from early adopters only to discount that product heavily later on the pretext of introducing a new model. This was how companies like Richer Sounds established themselves: shifting last years products at low prices. More market segmentation on the part of the producers.
Geoff
Although it not unusual for manufacturers to introduce a product at a high price to extract maximum revenues from early adopters only to discount that product heavily later on the pretext of introducing a new model.
Geoff
But you rarely see this much now outside of the fashion industry. Manufacturers keep very coy about new products and sometimes the new product designed to replace the older unit is brought out at a higher price before the old stock is exhausted making sure the old one still sells and it now looks even more attractive. Once sold out the new product price remains. I can only think of games consoles that lower the price of old models to clear stock.
Haselsh1
12-10-2017, 18:56
To be more accurate that particular sector of market they are aiming at will sustain.
Yeah, it is true of any particular sector in retail in the UK and quite possibly elsewhere on the planet.
Haselsh1
12-10-2017, 18:59
But you rarely see this much now outside of the fashion industry. Manufacturers keep very coy about new products and sometimes the new product designed to replace the older unit is brought out at a higher price before the old stock is exhausted making sure the old one still sells and it now looks even more attractive. Once sold out the new product price remains. I can only think of games consoles that lower the price of old models to clear stock.
I have heard from various connections that the cosmetics industry for example has a margin frequently around 400%. Pharmaceuticals sustain an obscene margin.
Sherwood
12-10-2017, 19:00
But you rarely see this much now outside of the fashion industry. Manufacturers keep very coy about new products and sometimes the new product designed to replace the older unit is brought out at a higher price before the old stock is exhausted making sure the old one still sells and it now looks even more attractive. Once sold out the new product price remains. I can only think of games consoles that lower the price of old models to clear stock.
I'll agree it less common now than it was thirty years ago, but Richer Sounds still regularly sell older models at reduced prices (e.g. Wharfedale Diamond speakers). I remember you could get some fantastic bargains from Richer when they started in the late seventies. I bought a Toshiba Aurex tuner in their London Bridge store for peanuts and very good it was too! Morgan Computers in Tottenham Court Road used to operate on a similar business model but now offer very few bargains as on online site.
geoff
southall-1998
12-10-2017, 19:21
Interesting! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la8iy1PDFZs
S.
Interesting! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la8iy1PDFZs
S.
Three minutes of my life I won't get back.
When will the population at large stop being led by the nose into compulsive consumption?
walpurgis
13-10-2017, 08:26
When will the population at large stop being led by the nose into compulsive consumption?
When they run out of money during the next recession, which could be along at any time.
Sherwood
13-10-2017, 08:54
Interesting! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la8iy1PDFZs
S.
I think the commentator is a bit confused here. The hypothesis of diminishing marginal returns simply postulates that the price performance ratio is not linear and that after a certain point the incremental increase in performance for every additional pound spent will begin to fall. The commentator accepts this and goes further to say that for him that point is reached very early (i.e. around $300). Of course, with hi fi, performance is ultimately highly subjective, and each of us will differ in terms of how we score a particular hi-fi system. Nonetheless, most of us recognise that beyond a particular price point we have to spend more and more to get increasingly small improvements in performance. The hypothesis also implicitly assumes that we are getting the best performance possible at any given price point. The commentator seems to acknowledge that his $16,000 system, whilst good, is bettered by other $16,000 systems he has heard.
Coming back to the original thread, I think that the hyper-inflation in hi-fi prices has less to do with price-performance factors than with price-satisfaction factors. No one will seriously claim that a £20,000 speaker is 100 times better in performance terms than a £200 speaker. However, some people will subjectively value the increased performance to be sufficiently worthwhile to spend the higher figure because they can commit those funds without compromising other purchases that they also value. For others, and this is where I think we come back on thread, performance considerations are largely secondary to the satisfaction they get from owning something that boosts their egos or impresses their friends. In this case, diminishing marginal returns are largely irrelevant!
This has reminded me of when I purchased my Rogers LS3/5a's for £150 around 40 years ago. Although a friend at the time was highly impressed with the sound quality of the LS3/5a's, he was ultimately appalled that I should spend so much on such "piddly shoe boxes" when I could have bought some proper "stonking crates" that would be seriously impressive! I guess we are all different in what motivates our purchasing decisions.
Geoff
Sherwood
13-10-2017, 08:58
When they run out of money during the next recession, which could be along at any time.
During WWII arms manufacturers and black marketeers did very well. During any recession, there are also winners as well as losers. I would guess there are enough of the former to keep the super expensive hi-fi market ticking over! How, many Chinese and Russian billionaires are there now?
Geoff
walpurgis
13-10-2017, 09:03
During WWII arms manufacturers and black marketeers did very well. During any recession, there are also winners as well as losers. I would guess there are enough of the former to keep the super expensive hi-fi market ticking over! How, many Chinese and Russian billionaires are there now?
Geoff
That's not "the population at large" though.
Sherwood
13-10-2017, 09:07
That's not "the population at large" though.
That's the point: the super expensive hi-fi market is not targeted at the population at large.
It thrives because there is a small group of consumers with the desire and the means to differentiate themselves from the "plebs"! My contention is that this market has greatly increased in recent decades!
Geoff
I do struggle at times to see how some items cost what they cost.
I have to agree. This has been awarded a "Best Buy" at £4995. Personally, looking at the internal photo etc I can't see anything like that value in this product, although I do like the looks and feature count.
http://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/pmc-cor-integrated-amplifier
Sherwood
13-10-2017, 09:47
I have to agree. This has been awarded a "Best Buy" at £4995. Personally, looking at the internal photo etc I can't see anything like that value in this product, although I do like the looks and feature count.
http://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/pmc-cor-integrated-amplifier
Seems a bargain compared to the £13,600 needed for the speakers it was designed to work with!
Geoff
I have to agree. This has been awarded a "Best Buy" at £4995. Personally, looking at the internal photo etc I can't see anything like that value in this product, although I do like the looks and feature count.
http://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/pmc-cor-integrated-amplifier
Of your £5K 20% is VAT, that's a grand right away, of the remaining £4K about £2K is dealer and distributor margin, and assuming a standard 10-1 ratio of cost to sale, the parts to build it cost the maker £200 tops.
Ali Tait
13-10-2017, 11:14
And another 200 for the case.
Haselsh1
13-10-2017, 11:16
Of your £5K 20% is VAT, that's a grand right away, of the remaining £4K about £2K is dealer and distributor margin, and assuming a standard 10-1 ratio of cost to sale, the parts to build it cost the maker £200 tops.
:thumbsup:
And another 200 for the case.
Yep. The case is almost certainly the most expensive single component.
Of your £5K 20% is VAT, that's a grand right away, of the remaining £4K about £2K is dealer and distributor margin, and assuming a standard 10-1 ratio of cost to sale, the parts to build it cost the maker £200 tops.
Good point, never thought of £1K VAT.
Good point, never thought of £1K VAT.
Nuts, isn't it? If they wanted to market an amp that was actually impressive in terms of specification how much would they have to charge for that at retail once you take everything into account? Probably twice as much.
Now if they did not have to take care of the dealer, the distributer and HMRC, how much cheaper would it be for exactly the same item? Too many people wetting their beaks.
Of your £5K 20% is VAT, that's a grand right away, of the remaining £4K about £2K is dealer and distributor margin, and assuming a standard 10-1 ratio of cost to sale, the parts to build it cost the maker £200 tops.
What about the costs for R&D, employing a team, tooling required, renting of a business premises etc.?
What about the costs for R&D, employing a team, tooling required, renting of a business premises etc.?
R&D for a totally conventional 2 channel stereo amp? Come on. All the R&D was done a hundred years ago. The rest is taken into account with the 10 to 1 cost of parts to cost of sale (to the distributer). Anything needing tooling, which is only the case and chassis, will be done by a third party already set up to do it. Probably in China.
I have to agree. This has been awarded a "Best Buy" at £4995.
http://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/pmc-cor-integrated-amplifier
Best Buy at 5K !!! Best buy should be at the few 100 pounds end imho. Case in point of my original post. For 5k I could have a budget car which has far more materials and construction labour all be it machine made mostly.
You could have this for $1200 usd (£900) but the import and vat spoil the deal. Amazing build and design if you see inside.
https://goo.gl/images/qcdjq6
You could have this for $1200 usd (£900) but the import and vat spoil the deal. Amazing build and design if you see inside.
https://goo.gl/images/qcdjq6
It will certainly have a lot of character judging by these specs:
Distortion: 0.6%
Signal to noise ratio:90dB (A standard)
Spectral Morn
13-10-2017, 13:46
Nuts, isn't it? If they wanted to market an amp that was actually impressive in terms of specification how much would they have to charge for that at retail once you take everything into account? Probably twice as much.
Now if they did not have to take care of the dealer, the distributer and HMRC, how much cheaper would it be for exactly the same item? Too many people wetting their beaks.
And that is the way the world works on everything, from selling goods to providing services, its called commerce, earning a living, and then having money to pay for stuff.
Sherwood
13-10-2017, 13:52
The discussion seems to have shifted from super expensive hi-fi to the economics of consumer electronics. Yes, there are many factors that escalate the costs of materials and labour to arrive at a retail price.
First, some maths. The vat on a £5,000 amp is £833 not £1,000. £1,000 is the vat you would pay on a £5,000 amp before vat!
Yes, there are other fixed or semi-fixed costs above materials and labour. R&D and tooling costs are incurred before a single unit is sold, but their relative importance depends on the total sales volume. Many of these super-priced products only have limited production runs, so these fixed costs account for a greater share of retail costs than would otherwise be the case. Marketing can be another important cost and looking at the marketing channels used for some elite products, I am sure that the marketing cost per unit sold for elite products is very high. Dealer margins are a big element which is why some of the best bargains are now to be had from direct sell companies. Most of my recent purchases have been from direct sell companies. Ultimately, though I think that many companies are simply making huge profits on some of their products because that is what the market will bear.
Geoff
montesquieu
13-10-2017, 15:02
What am I prepared to buy new? These days, really only stuff that wears out, like cartridges and tubes.
For everything else I'm happy with older or at least second hand gear in fact as I sit behind my 1967 amp, 1964 turntable and with a late 50s-design SPU cartridge, 1974 speaker drivers in a (albeit improved using modern materials and modelling techniques) 1961-style cabinet, and my early 00s DAC which uses a valve output stage based on the then brand new Audio Note M5, I wonder what a lot of modern gear really brings to the party.
Very little at Munich really floated my boat (a couple of speaker designs, a couple of bits of valve stuff), most of it left me cold, especially some of the fugly blinged up turntables designed to go in designer rooms in designer houses of the sort mine isn't at all, though more generally also the whole standard contemporary hifi template, which with with a few honorable exceptions seemed to be about mediocre streaming solutions pumping out forgettable muzac into overly shiny and very inefficient multi-multi-driver speakers, driven by large, shiny solid state muscle amps. Musicality? Forget it. What a yawn fest.
Of course that's being a bit unfair .... there was some very good kit and some of it reasonably priced, I'm thinking the little single driver Hecos for example or some of the boutique valve stuff and general bits and bobs. But this was the exception to the rule, room after room of the same shiny alloy faceplates, blue LEDs and TTs made from chromed girders.
Actually I apply the same notion to cars I'm running an 8 year old Jaguar XF (the then top of the range) that cost me £11k and I'm really not missing much compared to the £50k new one.
Of that means I miss out on the thrill of visiting car showrooms and indeed hifi dealers - no point if I'm not going to be a customer. But I think I can live with that. I'd rather take my chances on the private sales forum.
Tight git? Maybe. I prefer sensible.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/c53cb472391dc50e4531c934e16172cd.jpg
I recall reading an interview with the owner of Focal, about his Utopia speakers. His R&D staff made these speakers as a landmark accomplishment, to invest everything they knew into one speaker design. To take on the road to all of the hi-Fi shows to show off, but only as a demonstration. It was not a production speaker, it wasn’t meant for production, but just a feather in his company’s hat. But, when the public saw them, they wanted them! Rich people were hounding him to made them a pair! At any cost. I forget the price, something like $170,000 a pair. But he couldn’t make them fast enough to meet the demand. I think the speaker industry is one of the most overpriced, speakers over $100,000 abound! And most are just particle board with a nice veneer finish, and components I can buy online, I think to myself I could make a pair just like them for under $3k. But it’s all about the demand! If rich folks are begging for hi end companies to take their money, who can blame them?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Fit and finish can be expensive to produce, as its usually skilled craftspeople that do it. Even making a machine to do it as good would cost a fortune and would probably fail. You look at Marco's kitchen, and you can see where the money went as its crafted, and not banged together on a Wednesday early closing
montesquieu
13-10-2017, 15:51
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/c53cb472391dc50e4531c934e16172cd.jpg
Just the kind of fugly bling I was talking about.
Sherwood
13-10-2017, 16:15
You could have this for $1200 usd (£900) but the import and vat spoil the deal. Amazing build and design if you see inside.
https://goo.gl/images/qcdjq6
Import and shipping charges are not such a barrier. I have bought large floor standing speakers from the USA in the past and the shipping was less than $200 with VAT at 20%. Not so bad if the product is good and keenly priced to start with. The problem is when you do not buy from direct sell companies and have importers and retailers adding their charges. When I bought my Magneplanar 1.7 speakers the cost was about double what I would have paid for them in the USA.
I still don't understand why the USA is able to sell good hifi products at much more competitive prices than the UK and Europe. Ok, VAT is more than the typical state sales tax at 6%to10% but not much more so. Even harder to understand when many of the products come from the same Chinese manufacturers!
Geoff
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/c53cb472391dc50e4531c934e16172cd.jpg
Just the kind of fugly bling I was talking about.
I don't know, looks are never a big deal for me. The JM Labs I have at the moment are essentially a budget version of those speakers. The current version of them costs £5K new. If I had paid £5K for mine I would not be too happy. You can buy some of the new Tannoy Legacy Ardens for a little less. And I'd much rather have the Ardens. But for less than a tenth of that second hand, they are superb value for money.
To a degree it is all relative to what you can afford. If I was on five times the salary that I am then I guess I would not care about buying new and having to pay off the dealer and distributor. Money is only a means to an end. But I'm not, so I do.
montesquieu
13-10-2017, 17:04
If I was on five times the salary that I am then I guess I would not care about buying new and having to pay off the dealer and distributor. Money is only a means to an end. But I'm not, so I do.
I've thought about that. In my case it's possible it would. But my experience not having infinite dosh is that might well lead to laziness and to sub-optimal choices.
I think my main point was that there was far too much bling at Munich while the sound often underwhelmed - many many potential reasons for that of course.
I've thought about that. In my case it's possible it would. But my experience not having infinite dosh is that might well lead to laziness and to sub-optimal choices.
I think my main point was that there was far too much bling at Munich while the sound often underwhelmed - many many potential reasons for that of course.
Having to buy second hand can also lead to sub-optimal choices. To avoid that you have to know what you are doing and get lucky. As for Munich and such shows with serious high end I think that it is often the presentation that we dislike, rather than the quality of the sound, I mean, some people are buying it so someone likes it.
montesquieu
13-10-2017, 17:27
Having to buy second hand can also lead to sub-optimal choices. To avoid that you have to know what you are doing and get lucky. As for Munich and such shows with serious high end I think that it is often the presentation that we dislike, rather than the quality of the sound, I mean, some people are buying it so someone likes it.
Fair point on the sound not appealing .. that may indeed be it.
But buying second hand and networking with other like-minded souls has enormous advantages. In a bit more than a decade I must have heard 50 amps in my system and owned half that many, same with other components - cartridges and tonearms particularly in my case. Where there isn't the risk taking a huge hit on new gear it's easier to hone in on what you like.
Fair point on the sound not appealing .. that may indeed be it.
But buying second hand and networking with other like-minded souls has enormous advantages. In a bit more than a decade I must have heard 50 amps in my system and owned half that many, same with other components - cartridges and tonearms particularly in my case. Where there isn't the risk taking a huge hit on new gear it's easier to hone in on what you like.
Pretty much the opposite of what the mags preach...I'm with you on the second hand thing, it is what I do as well, but it would be interesting to be able to go to one of these shows and actually be able to comfortably, (i.e not really care about the financial loss if I decide I am not that keen after 6 months or so) buy what they are selling.
What am I prepared to buy new? These days, really only stuff that wears out, like cartridges and tubes.
For everything else I'm happy with older or at least second hand gear in fact as I sit behind my 1967 amp, 1964 turntable and with a late 50s-design SPU cartridge, 1974 speaker drivers in a (albeit improved using modern materials and modelling techniques) 1961-style cabinet, and my early 00s DAC which uses a valve output stage based on the then brand new Audio Note M5, I wonder what a lot of modern gear really brings to the party.
Very little at Munich really floated my boat (a couple of speaker designs, a couple of bits of valve stuff), most of it left me cold, especially some of the fugly blinged up turntables designed to go in designer rooms in designer houses of the sort mine isn't at all, though more generally also the whole standard contemporary hifi template, which with with a few honorable exceptions seemed to be about mediocre streaming solutions pumping out forgettable muzac into overly shiny and very inefficient multi-multi-driver speakers, driven by large, shiny solid state muscle amps. Musicality? Forget it. What a yawn fest.
Of course that's being a bit unfair .... there was some very good kit and some of it reasonably priced, I'm thinking the little single driver Hecos for example or some of the boutique valve stuff and general bits and bobs. But this was the exception to the rule, room after room of the same shiny alloy faceplates, blue LEDs and TTs made from chromed girders.
Actually I apply the same notion to cars I'm running an 8 year old Jaguar XF (the then top of the range) that cost me £11k and I'm really not missing much compared to the £50k new one.
Of that means I miss out on the thrill of visiting car showrooms and indeed hifi dealers - no point if I'm not going to be a customer. But I think I can live with that. I'd rather take my chances on the private sales forum.
Tight git? Maybe. I prefer sensible.
Good post Tom.
95% of my audio system(s) consists of items which were manufactured in the last century, and of those items probably 80% of them were bought used (all of my TTs, most of the amplification and tuners, and my all my speakers). The most recent items in use are a Studer-Revox CD player, Brinkmann 10.5 and SME M2-12R arms and a Van Den Hul MC cartridge, and these are the only items manufactured this century.
Minstrel SE
13-10-2017, 19:33
I dunno really. We are having a great recession to give it its proper term and it does seem to have polarised incomes. However thats in my world and the super rich seem to be increasing if anything. Something isnt right there and obscene amounts of money abound for those who have it all. The ultra expensive hi fi market seems to be doing rather well
My world always seemed to peak with a Sondek and how much is a Sondek now comapred with an 80s model? My view has always been blinkered to products I know and could hope to afford. I dont worry in that I could splash out a decent amount on hi fi and maybe the digital world has changed the value for money formula
I dont like the amalgamation and production moving to China and feel there should be a backlash against that
In the budget market its probably never been better as we have to compare cost inflation with say 80s prices. There seems a wider choice with more discounting and price competition.
I dunno really. We are having a great recession to give it its proper term and it does seem to have polarised incomes. However thats in my world and the super rich seem to be increasing if anything. Something isnt right there and obscene amounts of money abound for those who have it all. The ultra expensive hi fi market seems to be doing rather well
My world always seemed to peak with a Sondek and how much is a Sondek now comapred with an 80s model? My view has always been blinkered to products I know and could hope to afford. I dont worry in that I could splash out a decent amount on hi fi and maybe teh digital world has changed the value for money formula
I dont like the amalgamation and production moving to China and feel there should be a backlash against that
In the budget market its probably never been better as we have to compare cost inflation with say 80s prices. There seems a wider choice with more discounting and price competition.
I focus that nearly half the world population are living on less than $2.50 per day. Therefore in that sense I am privileged to be able to afford anything hi fi related
I try to avoid buying anything that has been made in China. It's not easy: most kitchen goods (kettles, food mixers, microwaves, toasters etc.) all seem to be made in China. Even power tools by previously well-regarded manufacturers such as Bosch, Makita, etc. now bare the legend "Made in PRC"!
jandl100
13-10-2017, 20:58
Hmm.
My best ever and most expensive by far hifi purchase was a brand new item (well, two items, a pair of speakers) from a dealer after hearing the product at a show.
It worked for me. :)
It will certainly have a lot of character judging by these specs:
Distortion: 0.6%
Signal to noise ratio:90dB (A standard)
That will be the 3 x china tubes they use on the pre stage. Replace them with something else and those figures will drop. Most tube gear has poor distortion results tbh. I think they do an all soild state version using fets so that would be better.
I try to avoid buying anything that has been made in China. It's not easy: most kitchen goods (kettles, food mixers, microwaves, toasters etc.) all seem to be made in China. Even power tools by previously well-regarded manufacturers such as Bosch, Makita, etc. now bare the legend "Made in PRC"!
I have had some really good hifi kit made in china. It's not all junk but you need to do your research before hand. Also many well known brands are made in the same factory with similar design specs as the china equivalent with its odd to us looking name.
Sherwood
15-10-2017, 12:08
I'm wondering when the ultra expensive market will start charging in guineas?
Geoff
I'm wondering when the ultra expensive market will start charging in guineas?
Geoff
still used for rams and horses the guinea. a real guinea is worth a fair amount now though in £...although not legal tender.
RothwellAudio
16-10-2017, 14:57
It will certainly have a lot of character judging by these specs:
Distortion: 0.6%
Signal to noise ratio:90dB (A standard)
The specs I found said distortion was 0.06% and the signal-to-noise ratio is >90dB.
Just picked up a copy of HiFi News, and the reviews this month are:
Metronome cd player+dac £72,000 total
Pass Labs integrated amp £11,500
Naim Uniti network music system £4100
Technics turntable £1300
Dynaudio stand-mount speakers £4300
Matrix dac £1700
Koetsu cartridge £8000
Spendor speakers £2200
1More headphones £210
Pro-Ject amps £1300
Last time I looked at HiFi Plus, there wasn't anything reviewed at less than four grand.
So, to answer the OP ... Yes!
Sherwood
17-10-2017, 14:00
Just picked up a copy of HiFi News, and the reviews this month are:
Metronome cd player+dac £72,000 total
Pass Labs integrated amp £11,500
Naim Uniti network music system £4100
Technics turntable £1300
Dynaudio stand-mount speakers £4300
Matrix dac £1700
Koetsu cartridge £8000
Spendor speakers £2200
1More headphones £210
Pro-Ject amps £1300
Last time I looked at HiFi Plus, there wasn't anything reviewed at less than four grand.
So, to answer the OP ... Yes!
This is why I do not buy hifi magazines. I would be very surprised if their circulation was more than a couple of thousand and I would guess that the number of those readers able and willing to spend more than £10,000 on a whole hifi system let alone a single component is rather small. These magazines are more likely to lead to dissatisfaction with one's system rather than to audio nirvana. I'm sure they are responsible for much of the box shifting that takes place with punters making sideways substitutions rather than genuine improvements. Even publications such as What Hifi seem obsessed with reviewing products that very few of its readers will ever be able to afford!
Geoff
Dentists and Doctors probably. they can afford it and it makes them look successful
montesquieu
17-10-2017, 14:11
Dentists and Doctors probably. they can afford it and it makes them look successful
My mate in Bavaria (an academic) used to maintain that only two kinds of people in Germany bought Porsches: pimps and dentists.
Though I suspect even a successful pimp might baulk at a £72,000 CD player - that's oligarch territory.
They are reviewing what brings them in revenue. We've had this out in the past with various mag reviewers on here. If they don't review this sort of thing, circulation drops. As with any profit making media the tail wags the dog in terms of determining content.
It's a bit like the awful shite BBC1 screens on a Saturday night. I wonder who watches it; since no-one I know personally does. But in fact millions of people do, their interests are just completely different to mine.
My mate in Bavaria (an academic) used to maintain that only two kinds of people in Germany bought Porsches: pimps and dentists.
Though I suspect even a successful pimp might baulk at a £72,000 CD player - that's oligarch territory.
when I was in Hamburg, all the taxi's were big mercs. dont see many merc taxi's here.(mind they are a lot cheaper there)
Dentists and Doctors probably. they can afford it and it makes them look successful
Maybe a Private Doctor. I know a NHS Dr and his his Hi-Fi system is about £4K total so they all don't have big disposable incomes. Also most Dr's esp in Hospitals work very long hours.
dentists average 70k and gp's 100k . not bad recompense, although imo they are worth it. (well the good ones are)
when I was in Hamburg, all the taxi's were big mercs. dont see many merc taxi's here.(mind they are a lot cheaper there)
Yesh, dontcha know that's why I bought one and 'pimped' it! :D;)
Marco.
It's a bit like the awful shite BBC1 screens on a Saturday night. I wonder who watches it; since no-one I know personally does. But in fact millions of people do, their interests are just completely different to mine.
Indeed. Strictly Come Dancing? What a loada mind-numbing arse-gravy! In any case, I'm a firm believer in that the acid test of whether you have a life or not, is if you're in watching TV on a Saturday night... ;)
They are reviewing what brings them in revenue. We've had this out in the past with various mag reviewers on here. If they don't review this sort of thing, circulation drops. As with any profit making media the tail wags the dog in terms of determining content.
Quite, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a market for producing a magazine for genuine enthusiasts. Say something that caters for stuff typically discussed on forums such as this, mixed in with the odd bit of 'badge-fi', for impressionable weenie boys to spunk-off to....
A winning formula, perhaps?
Marco.
Dentists and Doctors probably. they can afford it and it makes them look successful
I doubt it. Perhaps a Porsche might, but a stupidly expensive hi-fi system? Not a chance, quite simply because, unlike a 'posh car', the neighbours are unlikely to appreciate what it is!! ;)
Marco.
Sherwood
17-10-2017, 16:52
Indeed. Strictly Come Dancing? What a loada mind-numbing arse-gravy! In any case, I'm a firm believer in that the acid test of whether you have a life or not, is if you're in watching TV on a Saturday night... ;)
Quite, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a market for producing a magazine for genuine enthusiasts. Say something that caters for the topics of hi-fi discussion typical on forums such as this, mixed in with the odd bit of 'badge-fi', to spunk-off to....
Marco.
RIP me! Death to MOTD!:)
Quite, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a market for producing a magazine for genuine enthusiasts. Say something that caters for stuff typically discussed on forums such as this, mixed in with the odd bit of 'badge-fi', for impressionable weenie boys to spunk-off to....
A winning formula, perhaps?
Marco.
Perhaps but I doubt it. Print media is dying a slow death now anyway. Maybe 20 years ago. In fact Hi Fi World was a lot like how you describe for the first few years. Then they started chasing ratings.
Sherwood
17-10-2017, 17:06
Perhaps but I doubt it. Print media is dying a slow death now anyway. Maybe 20 years ago. In fact Hi Fi World was a lot like how you describe for the first few years. Then they started chasing ratings.
You are right about the death of print media. I am guessing that the print circulation of all these hifi magazines (with the possible exception of Gramophone and What Hifi) is less than 5,000 copies. It is perplexing to me that anyone buys them! I am guessing that the advertising revenue from these stratospherically priced products covers the fixed costs of production.
Geoff
Perhaps but I doubt it. Print media is dying a slow death now anyway. Maybe 20 years ago. In fact Hi Fi World was a lot like how you describe for the first few years. Then they started chasing ratings.
I was just about to mention HFW. That was *exactly* what a magazine for genuine enthusiasts looked like. Unfortunately, they were eventually forced to sell their soul to the devil... I take your point about printed media, and agree, but I think it could still work if the content was designed to appeal to a UK audience.
Specifically, those with an interest in the type of hi-fi topics discussed on all the main forums, especially if the vintage hi-fi scene, together with a DIY element, were properly catered for, along with regular articles on reader's systems and a good letters/advice column.
The latter is the 'heartbeat' of any successful hi-fi magazine [the removal of which was one of the main reasons for their current decline], which doesn't cater simply for folk who like ogling at pictures of equipment they'll never be able to afford! ;)
Marco.
I was just about to mention HFW. That was *exactly* what a magazine for genuine enthusiasts looked like. Unfortunately, they were eventually forced to sell their soul to the devil...
I take your point about printed media, and agree, but I think it could still work if the content was designed to appeal to a UK audience.
Specifically, those with an interest in the type of hi-fi topics discussed on all the main forums, especially if the vintage hi-fi scene, together with a DIY element, were properly catered for, along with regular articles on reader's systems and a good letters/advice column.
The latter is the 'heartbeat' of any successful hi-fi magazine, which doesn't cater simply for folk who like ogling at pictures of equipment they'll never be able to afford! ;)
Marco.
I think that ship has sailed now. I stopped buying mags regularly when I discovered hi fi forums. stopped altogether about 4 years ago. Why write a letter when you can post your query on a forum and get a ton of advice in hours? And unlike a print mag it is fully interactive and easily searched for ay topic you want. No ploughing through hundreds of back issues to find the info you need.
Oh I know - you don't need to convince me or sell me the idea that printed mags are on their way out.
The point is, if they can currently be made to 'work', catering for the superficial whims of badge-fi fetishists, then IMO, they can be made to 'work', to a similar degree, catering for the interests of the genuine enthusiasts out there, and an audience that makes up the membership of the likes of here and pfm.... Like I said, it would need to be UK-focussed.
If it was done right, those folks would have just as much reason to read such a magazine, as they would the content of said forums. And let's not forget that some people still like holding and reading something 'tangible', just like they do playing records, as opposed to streaming files - or a proper book, as opposed to a Kindle ;)
Marco.
We could just print pages off the forum and sell them as a magazine...not sure what the difference would be except that some of the photography work here, and on other forums, is better than in the mags.
anthonyTD
17-10-2017, 17:57
:)
And let's not forget that some people still like holding and reading something 'tangible', just like they do playing records, as opposed to streaming files - or a proper book, as opposed to a Kindle ;)
Marco.
We could just print pages off the forum and sell them as a magazine..
Great idea! And you said you weren't an entrepreneur!! :D
Marco.
walpurgis
17-10-2017, 18:06
The idea of an AOS magazine had crossed my mind too.
jandl100
18-10-2017, 06:58
You guys! :doh: :lol:
Hehehe... I prefer the idea of an AoS calendar, actually. No doubt that Geoff will want to be 'Mr January'! :eyebrows:
Marco.
jandl100
18-10-2017, 07:04
My thoughts on the over-priced hifi debate ...
Well, yes & no.
Sure the top end of the market has gone stratospheric.
But the bottom end of the market has burgeoned, too.
There is genuinely excellent sounding kit out there in the low £hundreds (new price, not used - and electronics, mainly, speakers are more of a challenge, but headphones for sure) that wouldn't have been dreamed of as possible just 10 or 15 years ago.
You need to look at the whole picture not just at what irritates you. ;)
Sherwood
18-10-2017, 07:25
My thoughts on the over-priced hifi debate ...
Well, yes & no.
Sure the top end of the market has gone stratospheric.
But the bottom end of the market has burgeoned, too.
There is genuinely excellent sounding kit out there in the low £hundreds (new price, not used - and electronics, mainly, speakers are more of a challenge, but headphones for sure) that wouldn't have been dreamed of as possible just 10 or 15 years ago.
You need to look at the whole picture not just at what irritates you. ;)
I have no real opinion on whether this is good or bad although I am guess that some of the technology that is developed for these stratospheric products filters down to real world products. My interest is in the factors that have facilitated the growth in this market, not least the creation of a significant cohort of ultra rich as a result of widening inequalities in income and wealth. I would argue that this cohort was too small in past decades to support an industry where some hifi systems cost as much as a small house!
Geoff
I My interest is in the factors that have facilitated the growth in this market, not least the creation of a significant cohort of ultra rich as a result of widening inequalities in income and wealth.
I keep hearing and reading about this increasing wealth gap but is there any evidence to support it? Or is it just one of those things people repeat because it sounds right to them?
In the past 20 years we have had Russia, China and the far east countries like Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia all develop significantly in wealth terms. That alone would surely account for a sizeable new market for high end hi-fi that didn't previously exist, especially when you consider that attitudes to wealth and conspicuous consumption are different in those cultures. People there are impressed by it, they are not thinking 'Flash git' when they see acres of bling and ludicrous price tags.
jandl100
18-10-2017, 07:40
There has been £mega kit for decades - Jadis, Dynaudio and many others have always had offerings that are out of reach to most folk.
As Martin says, the £mega market has expanded as more regions of the world have gained in wealth, creating the inevitable top earning strata of million/billionaires.
You can attach your own ethical/political agenda to it if you want.
hifi_dave
18-10-2017, 10:13
I've always done 'high end', right back to the late 70s. Speakers at £18K, amps at £10-20K, CD players at £6-25K we often sold but now the bar has been raised with amps at £250K, speakers at £750K etc. Way out of reach for me and my customers but it does sell in small quantities to those who don't need to ask the price.
Often, these products are not worth anything like the money. The price covers lunatic build and bling, which does nothing for the performance but makes the product look expensive for those who like to show off.
Spectral Morn
18-10-2017, 10:26
Just picked up a copy of HiFi News, and the reviews this month are:
Metronome cd player+dac £72,000 total
Pass Labs integrated amp £11,500
Naim Uniti network music system £4100
Technics turntable £1300
Dynaudio stand-mount speakers £4300
Matrix dac £1700
Koetsu cartridge £8000
Spendor speakers £2200
1More headphones £210
Pro-Ject amps £1300
Last time I looked at HiFi Plus, there wasn't anything reviewed at less than four grand.
So, to answer the OP ... Yes!
HiFi News may like to state that they only review suitable high quality kit, but I am personally getting tired of the same old same old distributors portfolio getting dipped into, as if nothing else out there is 'high quality'.
Last two months of + I haven't bought as there isn't enough of interest in them for me. Regarding pricing of review kit, I think + has become less ultra high end than it was, but sadly for me its become more boring - it used to be more interesting in its early days. I used to look forward to it back in those days.
Hehehe... I prefer the idea of an AoS calendar, actually. No doubt that Geoff will want to be 'Mr January'! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Lets just hope its not a Full Monty style one for all our sakes !!
pgarrish
20-10-2017, 16:31
It’s not just hifi, hi-end anything is getting more and more obscene, but when your customers have more money than some countries, and expensive=better then you just charge what you want and make it look the part.
I just wish my cows milk was 'high end' and I could charge what I want :eyebrows:
I just wish my cows milk was 'high end' and I could charge what I want :eyebrows:
stuff i buy is twice the price of ordinary milk. microfoams better and lasts longer :eyebrows: I ight add milk is badly underpriced for farmers
Bring back gold top milk as a standard. [emoji4]
Harder to find now, but so yummy.
cravendale bluetop is my fav.
I just wish my cows milk was 'high end' and I could charge what I want :eyebrows:
You could try lacing it with cocaine.
People would come back for more. Guaranteed.
I like hot milk with lots of sugar and whisky!! Does that count ;)
Sorry to steer the thread off course :eek:
I do like a drop of milk, full fat obviously. Drunk from the carton. I like my tea and coffee black. Never tried it with scotch and sugar though. Warm milk doesn't agree with me.
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