View Full Version : record clamp/weights useful or not? Any ideal weight?
Hi Folks
I'm toying with the idea of trying out a record clamp/weight, are they of any use at all? I have a Notts Analogue interspace SE so no issue with suspension etc.
What sort of difference should one make to sound etc?
I bought a 45 rpm adapter from this seller and it's nicely made so I thought I might try a weight from them but they have different weights on offer. The 45 adapter is nicely machined so I'm considering a weight too.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/45-Record-Singles-Adapter-Design-1-For-Technics-Pioneeer-Garrard-301-401-/142511799348?hash=item212e5d7c34:g:8JYAAOSwrblZmHi D
any comments welcome. cheers
:)
Dubster68
08-10-2017, 21:08
I use mine mainly to hold records from slipping on my glass mat when I clean them before playing. I have not noticed any difference in sound quality on or off.
I used one years ago but I didn't notice much difference. It was heavy and it probably just helped wear some bearings out.
Ta muchly , any positive experiences out there or should I spend the money on vinyl? :scratch:
Bigman80
09-10-2017, 07:15
Ta muchly , any positive experiences out there or should I spend the money on vinyl? :scratch:Just my 2p
I use mine on records that are either a bit lightweight or slightly warped. On 180g I dont bother. I found it to add a bit of focus and tighten the bass on some vinyl.
I recommend buying a cheap one, say £20 off eBay. If you don't like it or can't hear what I hear, it's only £20. If you like it, buy what you want!
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Ok cool
Considers drilling hole in doorstop....
Use anything to hand, it doesn't matter, although this being the hobby it is, if you want to spunk a couple of grand on one you can ;)
I don't like them on the whole, they sort of improve some aspects and degrade others so it will always be a personal taste thing. Plus I worry about extra wear on the bearing, probably unnecessarily, but who knows?
http://www.nagaoka.eu/index.php?item=nagaoka-rc-401-round-cleaner-record-weight&action=article&aid=73&lang=EN
these are good. not particularly heavy but do add a little focus to lightweight stuff. bonus is you get a superb needle cleaner too.
There are record clamps and record weights - ostensibly both do the same thing however:
Clamps: usually screw onto the centre spindle or use a split chuck arrangement to grip the centre spindle. In every case they grip the centre spindle. The problem with this is that the clamp is directly connected to the main bearing which is the primary source of noise outside of the motor. The clamp is also pressed against the record so any noise in the bearing is directly coupled to the record surface and to the same surface the stylus rests on. The second problem is that it's difficult to regulate the pressure that the clamp exerts and it is very likely to vary from record to record and between uses.
Weights: the problem with weights is primarily - the weight of them :). Increasing the load on the bearing is not a good thing. In the worst case it will increase wear and in the best case it will increase noise. In addition, if you use a suspended design you may well alter the resonant frequency of the suspension by increasing the suspended mass and it may even be rendered useless.
In short, there is no free lunch. Record weights and clamps both bring the record into tighter (not necessarily closer) contact with the record mat/interface. So whatever the sonic colourations (sound) of that interface are will be exaggerated. In other words, you hear the sound of the record mat/interface more. Whether you hear this effect is down to how transparent your system is - but after a certain point record mats and clamps/weights are clearly audible, as are the differences between different types.
paulf-2007
09-10-2017, 16:16
I use mine mainly to hold records from slipping on my glass mat when I clean them before playing. I have not noticed any difference in sound quality on or off.+1 I have a copper mat so use to stop slipping when cleaning. I did have a project weight that made no difference to sound whatsoever.
There was me hoping for an easy answer!
Ok, will rethink and maybe try a cheap one to see what happens. Will go for a weight not clamp though if I do.
Thanks
farflungstar
09-10-2017, 17:53
I have a variety of weights of different materials and weight - but by far the best is one I bought from a guy on here. It's adjustable by squeezing it which means you can apply as much or as little downforce as you want. I wish I could remember the name....
I use a Mitchell record clamp on my Thorens 124/II decks. Would never use a weight.
I agree with your observations Mark, as they mirror my own experiences (and fairly extensive) testing of various different record clamps and weights - all with the one turntable (and established reference), which is my modded Technics SL-1210. Your summary below sums things up nicely:
In short, there is no free lunch. Record weights and clamps both bring the record into tighter (not necessarily closer) contact with the record mat/interface. So whatever the sonic colourations (sound) of that interface are will be exaggerated. In other words, you hear the sound of the record mat/interface more. Whether you hear this effect is down to how transparent your system is - but after a certain point record mats and clamps/weights are clearly audible, as are the differences between different types.
Indeed. However, I still believe that the right form of record clamp (I don't rate weights very much) can be highly effective, and offer clearly audible sonic benefits, by ensuring that the record is firmly gripped in position (thus preventing any 'slipping' or movement during playback, no matter how small), and therefore allowing the stylus to trace the grooves with maximum accuracy.
Some of the best (and most expensive) turntables use elaborate clamping systems, such as that employed by the Continuum Audio Labs Caliburn, and I feel that's no coincidence. The key, for me, is to create a clamping effect on the record, without the use of mass, or via gripping the spindle, thus coupling the record to a primary source of noise. It's the latter that's a bad thing, not the clamping effect itself...
That's why I still use the magnetic design you made [shown below], which for me is ingenious, Being made from acrylic, it's low-mass, so exerts no strain or wear on the bearing, and the fairly strong magnetic interaction generated (between it and the spindle, of course this will only work on T/Ts with metal record spindles), 'clamps' the record firmly in place onto the mat, but without applying any force to the spindle, in the way of how record clamps traditionally work.
In use, I find that it notably reduces noise and distortion, increases 'musical focus' (by preventing the blurring of information), and also significantly reduces surface noise on playback. As such, I simply wouldn't be without it. You really should make more, as nothing else I've tried has been as successful or works quite like it! :)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/oou8HW.jpg
Marco.
Hi all thanks for your comments,as is normally the case nothing in hi fi is simple !LOL
Marco ,your magnetic thingy sounds interesting but now unavailable, never mind. I have some thinking to do. Cheers Andy.
Haselsh1
11-10-2017, 06:37
I tried a couple of these out back in 2015. One was the screw on clamp type on a Pro-Ject and the other was just a heavy aluminium weight. I used the same Pro-Ject deck with the two different devices and the screw down clamp had by far the biggest impact on the sound in my system.
Marco ,your magnetic thingy sounds interesting but now unavailable, never mind. I have some thinking to do. Cheers Andy.
You never know, if you ask Mark nicely, he might make you one ;)
Marco.
My Orbe SE has an inbuilt clamping system.
Cleverly designed little thing that raises the centre of the disc slightly then pressurises it so that the disc lies flat, effectively clamped to the platter.
Very useful in dealing with any degree of warpage but having tried it with a flat LP, both with and without the clamp, I can detect no difference in the SQ.
So it has it's uses, but it's also a bit of a nuisance adding time and complication to the disc flipping business.
Interesting, Bob, that you should mention the Orbe (and I believe this also applies to the Gyrodec), in that the record clamping system is integral to the design of the turntable itself, and well-thought out, thus not simply something that's been added later, as an afterthought, which is often the case with these things...
That, for me, is key to the likely (sonic) success of any record clamping system ['system' being the operative word].
In that respect, it really needs to be factored into the design of the turntable, from the ground up. I'm surprised though, that you can't hear any difference without it, as anytime I've tried it with an Orbe, the sound, with the clamp fitted, has always been no-brainer better! :)
Marco.
Interesting perception Marco.
I understand the theory and have done quite a few hours listening on a comparative basis but still can't pick up on the benefits.
And I'm almost off the OCD scale in setting up my turntable / arm etc.
To my ears, without the clamp, there's a subtle blurring of musical information and lack of 'focus' on instruments and voices, which with the clamp fitted is rendered as absent. Often with these things, one needs to focus on musical differences, as opposed to tonal ones (as automatically tends to be the case), which are likely to be minimal at best.
Anyway, if you can't hear any difference with or without the clamp in situ, that's probably a good thing, as it's one less thing to worry about! :)
Marco.
Haselsh1
11-10-2017, 08:50
To my ears, without the clamp, there's a subtle blurring of musical information and lack of 'focus' on instruments and voices, which with the clamp fitted is rendered as absent. Often with these things, one needs to focus on musical differences, as opposed to tonal ones (as automatically tends to be the case), which are likely to be minimal at best.
Anyway, if you can't hear any difference with or without the clamp in situ, that's probably a good thing, as it's one less thing to worry about! :)
Marco.
Totally agree Marco. A much more sharply etched sound with crystal clear transients. A lot less blurred.
Haselsh1
11-10-2017, 08:51
Interesting, Bob, that you should mention the Orbe (and I believe this also applies to the Gyrodec), in that the record clamping system is integral to the design of the turntable itself, and well-thought out, thus not simply something that's been added later, as an afterthought, which is often the case with these things...
That, for me, is key to the likely (sonic) success of any record clamping system ['system' being the operative word].
In that respect, it really needs to be factored into the design of the turntable, from the ground up. I'm surprised though, that you can't hear any difference without it, as anytime I've tried it with an Orbe, the sound, with the clamp fitted, has always been no-brainer better! :)
Marco.
Yes indeed, the Pro-Ject clamping system is integral to the design as well and is probably the reason it works so clearly.
Record clamps that screw onto, or into, the record spindle (like the Michell) are capable of applying significantly more pressure than other clamping methods or record weights (unless said weight is extremely bulky). They don't apply additional force to the bearing (some minor mass but negligible) but they do couple the bearing very closely to the record - and the record very tightly to the mat. They also put the record through a great deal of force and the pressure applied is not even across the surface (hence some peripheral clamping rings that exist).
Marco kindly mentions the clamp I developed which effectively acts like a weight but without mass - sounds like a contradiction but it's true. This clamp was developed for my own use with my own design of turntable and my own design of mat. Inevitably there is an element of 'system' about how these parts interact with each other but they can work independently - the use of them together is not mandatory for success and a number of people use my mat without a clamp; Marco uses the clamp without my mat (I think) and one friend uses both.
title edited...it was annoying me :lol:
It still says "Any ideal wieght?(sp)" Grant....
Doh! was out of sight when I edited..lol fixed now I think.
..... focus on musical differences, as opposed to tonal ones ......
Anyway, if you can't hear any difference with or without the clamp in situ, that's probably a good thing, as it's one less thing to worry about! :)
Marco.
Whoa Marco. Now I'm going to worry about that. :eek:
Seriously, next time I'm in a comparative mood I'll give it a go, but nothing has hit me yet. Are you talking about PRaT vs Tone? :scratch:
magiccarpetride
11-10-2017, 18:12
Hi Folks
I'm toying with the idea of trying out a record clamp/weight, are they of any use at all? I have a Notts Analogue interspace SE so no issue with suspension etc.
What sort of difference should one make to sound etc?
I bought a 45 rpm adapter from this seller and it's nicely made so I thought I might try a weight from them but they have different weights on offer. The 45 adapter is nicely machined so I'm considering a weight too.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/45-Record-Singles-Adapter-Design-1-For-Technics-Pioneeer-Garrard-301-401-/142511799348?hash=item212e5d7c34:g:8JYAAOSwrblZmHi D
any comments welcome. cheers
:)
My experience is that the snap-on clamp makes the sound more strident, so I stopped using it. I prefer more relaxed sound myself.
Whoa Marco. Now I'm going to worry about that. :eek:
Seriously, next time I'm in a comparative mood I'll give it a go, but nothing has hit me yet. Are you talking about PRaT vs Tone? :scratch:
Lol...What are you like?:D
Yeah, kind of. My advice would be to spend a week listening to a selection of familiar music with the clamp ON, just to attune/acclimatise yourself to the sound.
Then take the clamp off, and with the same music (perhaps choose a particular track to do the assessment test), ascertain if you can hear anything different, based on what you'd previously heard throughout the week, in terms of your enjoyment of the music and ability to 'get into it'.
If any REAL difference exists, good or bad, it should hit you immediately!
That's how I usually assess these things. *But* the test process has to involve familiar music, and be carried out for at least week. Quick-fire A/B/A tests, with such items, usually reveal little, if anything. See how you get on :)
Marco.
With the clamp (or weight) the sound is usually a little more solid sounding but also drier - less ‘airy sparkle’ sort of thing. However, it also emphasises the sound of the record mat. If you struggle to hear the difference between mats then I wouldn’t bother with a clamp (or weight) - you don’t need one to stop record slip, even on a glass mat (unless you want to clean your records on your turntable, which I wouldn’t recommend).
Oh, the majority of mats (I have bought borrowed and made practically every type from humble to exotic) do behave as elaborate tone controls, damping some frequencies and exaggerating others.
Marco kindly mentions the clamp I developed which effectively acts like a weight but without mass - sounds like a contradiction but it's true. This clamp was developed for my own use with my own design of turntable and my own design of mat. Inevitably there is an element of 'system' about how these parts interact with each other but they can work independently - the use of them together is not mandatory for success and a number of people use my mat without a clamp; Marco uses the clamp without my mat (I think) and one friend uses both.
Absolutely. And it's without your mat. I use a Nagaoka glass mat, the combination with which is superb. You really are being too modest, Mark. Your design, IMO, is excellent and worthy of being put into proper production as a commercial product, and sold through on-line retailers, at a price that would give you a respectable margin of profit.
I'm serious! There's nothing like it on the market, and I'm confident that it would work well on most T/Ts :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco, I must admit I’m pleased with it and do use a version of it myself. Indeed, there has been talk of commercialising it but nothing has come of it as yet. It’s not entirely universal though, it won’t work on Pink Triangle decks and Rocksans for example.
Thanks Marco, I must admit I’m pleased with it and do use a version of it myself. Indeed, there has been talk of commercialising it but nothing has come of it as yet. It’s not entirely universal though, it won’t work on Pink Triangle decks and Rocksans for example.
Indeed, but it would work on the vast majority of turntables. If I were you, I'd give commercialising it some serious consideration, as I'm usually quite good a spotting a seller ;)
Marco.
As ever, life and work get in the way. In truth I’m not that interested in commercialising my designs. If it hadn’t been for Roger at Tigerpaw the Tranquility would probably never have reached production and I designed the majority of it years ago.
Yeah I know how it is, mate. One to ponder though, if the urge ever takes you! :)
Marco.
If anyone is interested in bringing it to market then I'm happy to partner up and provide drawings, CAD etc. AS you say, there isn't anything like it on the market and it does work in an inherently different way. I'm always looking toward the new though - my latest is a turntable suspension that I've never seen done before and for the really ambitious there is a tonearm design that is quite unique :).
Haselsh1
12-10-2017, 12:57
My experience is that the snap-on clamp makes the sound more strident, so I stopped using it. I prefer more relaxed sound myself.
Yeah, I can certainly understand that observation.
RobbieGong
12-10-2017, 13:27
I've tried both weights and Michell clamp.
I found the clamp had a sucking of the music effect on the Techie.
My approach has always been simply no heavy weights and to just trust my ears.
This has proven the best by far, doesnt add or take away really, just ever so slightly tightens things up a bit to my ears.
I like Panzerwood in my set up and this is quality http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PanzerWood-Stabilizer-Record-Clamp-Weight-Puck-380g-for-Turntable-TOP-GERMANY-/252530627586?hash=item3acbff9402:g:RGUAAOSw-kdX0R0w
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