View Full Version : Shuggie's trip to Marco Towers
Ammonite Audio
10-02-2010, 19:49
I'm just back from Wrexham, after a most enjoyable few hours with Marco. I went with a couple of prejudices, namely that DL-103s must be nasty, syrupy old things; and that all Tannoys are the foul screechy Victorian Credenza things that I have heard at shows. On both counts, I am pleased to have been educated by Marco. His old Lockwoods may be old and bulky, but they do sound rather good, with a most unexpected sparkle at the top end. Apparently these Tannoys have the old pepperpot tweeters, which are held to be better than the later tulip waveguide ones. The DL-103 variants were a really pleasant surprise too - perhaps lacking in the incisive detail that my Ortofons give, but most beguiling in every other sense. Anyone got a DL-103 for sale? One highlight was playing my Decca SXL LP (1959, Ansermet, Speakers Corner reissue) of Adam's Giselle, which really showed off the amount of air that Marco's Tannoys can shift. There's quite a bit of bass drum banging in that recording, and it's clear that for natural dynamics, there is no real substitute for speaker cones with sheer surface area!
We compared our upgraded Techies and both did well, which is hardly surprising. Mine has different feet and mat, and sounded leaner in comparison to Marco's, but still very good. When we fed Marco's deck with my PSU, I thought it sounded more natural, but I'll let him comment on that if he wishes.
So, thank you to Marco for sparing the time for me today. The drive back was hideous owing to driving snow and slow traffic on the M6, but is was worth it. He may even have persuaded me to go up to the Scalford show.
Hi Shuggs,
I'm pleased that you got back safely, even though it was a bit of a nightmare journey.... It was great to meet you again - top marks for getting from London to mine by 10am and catching me still in my dressing gown! :lol: :lol:
Glad you liked the 'old nail', both in standard and 'SA' form. I love what it does, musically, when it's correctly partnered :)
Yes the Lockwoods can shift serious amounts of air when required, as we chatted about, and I really enjoyed that classical track! The Monitor Gold drivers have a different presentation to some of the modern designs, which as you say, can sound rather screechy.
I was impressed with the Paul Hynes PSU when fitted to my SL-1210, which I found to be slightly more open sounding than the Time Step with the particular tracks we played. However, in order to fully get to grips with what the Paul Hynes does in comparison to the Time Step, and form a proper conclusion, I would need to spend longer listening to both and swap between it and the Time Step. Undoubtedly, though, the Paul Hynes is a very good design.
I thought that your turntable sounded very good (and actually quite enjoyed both of your Ortofons), however I'm not sure about the effect of the Stillpoint feet... Perhaps they're not at their best with Mana?
With the David Bowie track (using my 103SA in your T/T) there was a rather unnatural sound to the vocals, which I couldn't quite identify, and to my ears this all but disappeared when we swapped back to my own T/T using the same cartridge and PSU.
My suspicion is that the old Techy transformer you've still left under the platter is interfering with sound, as I've heard that effect before. I would remove it and see whether you can detect an improvement - I strongly suspect you will ;)
So you've now heard some valves with big old Tannoys, which perhaps sounded different to what you expected! Incidentally, I discovered that the Mark Grant digital lead was round the wrong way (in terms of directionality) for most of our CD listening session - I'd obviously not put it back the right way after the recent DAC comparison I'd carried with a friend :doh:
It was round the right way at the end when we were playing that piano track, after we'd swapped back from your MIT. I thought it sounded better then.... I'm not sure if you noticed the difference or not.
Anyway, it was good to see you again, and if you're coming to the Scalford Hall show in March, I'm sure we can share a few beers :cool:
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
10-02-2010, 21:23
Yes, I shall be excising the mains transformer from the Technics - it's not something that will be needed, after all.
The digital cable swapping was interesting, mainly to show that differences are not necessarily improvements. My MIT cable did result in a sound much more familiar to me, but I still enjoyed what your Mark Grant cable did in overall musical terms. I find it very difficult to state which was "better".
As for the feet - I no longer have the Isonoes, but I might give sorbothane squishy ones a go.
I'd agree with you about the Bowie track, which did not work nearly as well as I'm accustomed to here with my system.
Steve Toy
10-02-2010, 21:50
Mark Grant? What happened to the Van Den Hul?
Yes, I shall be excising the mains transformer from the Technics - it's not something that will be needed, after all.
Nice one - I think you'll notice an improvement with that :)
Yes the Bowie track was a curious one - not quite sure what was going on there.
I thought the MIT was pretty good (definitely one of the better 'high-end' cables I've heard), although like you say, it was difficult to judge which was 'better' between it and the Mark Grant, if any. That would be one to spend more time over.
However, I think you'll agree that the MG's are amazing value for money and the results you heard laugh in the face of the (ludicrously biased) What Lie-Fi? review, detailed on another thread! :mental:
Marco.
Mark Grant? What happened to the Van Den Hul?
It's too short for where I have the DAC now, which is no big deal really in my system. I'll talk to you about that when you give me a ring tomorrow :)
Marco.
Mark Grant? What happened to the Van Den Hul?
Van den Dul by comparison now??
They're both good cables, Jon.
I used to think that all VDH cables sounded dull, until I heard the speaker cables I'm using now and (some) of their interconnects :)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
10-02-2010, 23:09
Great stuff guys!
We have two DL-103SA's not on allocation as of now.
Watch out for the new feet from Timestep, everything you have wanted and damping too!
The MK2 Timestep PSU is in pre-production, not only what I wanted, but what customers wanted too.
And, phew, the new platter soon..................
Exhausted~~~~~~
Dave
The MK2 Timestep PSU is in pre-production, not only what I wanted, but what customers wanted too.
Dave
Can the mk1 be upgraded for sensible money? Hope so, otherwise all the people with Timesteps will have to fork out again.....
I believe that Dave C has a plan in that respect... :)
The Paul Hynes PSU, during the short time I listened to it, appeared to have the edge over the Time Step in terms of perceived lower noise floor, and thus it acted as a marginally more 'open window' onto the music. The MK2 Time Step PSU will perhaps redress the balance - indeed I will find out in due course.
It should be pointed out that the MK2 Time Step PSU's sole raison d'être is to accommodate the needs of the forthcoming SL-1200 platter upgrade, which being massively more high-mass than the existing platter, will thus put more demands on the motor, hence the need for a 'beefier' PSU to drive the extra load.
I can't wait to hear the combined sonic benefits of the bigger PSU and high-mass (non-resonant) platter.... SP10s? PAH! - We laugh in your face! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ali Tait
11-02-2010, 09:57
So you've changed your mind about buying an SP10 then?
Hi Ali,
Yes and no...
What I intend to do is max-out my SL-1210 (in terms installing all of Dave's upgrades) in order to hear the FULL potential of the 1210's superb motor unit, then compare the finished article to the best execution of an SP10 I can find (I know a few people with nice ones), and ascertain conclusively whether purely in terms of sonic performance (apart from enjoying music, my main reason for owning ANY hi-fi equipment), there is any advantage in going down the refurbished SP10 route.
*Only* if the latter indicates sonic advantages over and above the ability to install a better plinth to facilitate the installation of a 12" arm (or both a 9" and 12" arm), will I then pursue it.
As you know, I'm thorough when it comes to these things, so before embarking on what would no doubt be a challenging SP10 project (getting it right to the standards I demand), I need to be 100% certain that an SL-1210 can't be made to sound quite as good - only then will I go down the SP10 route :)
However, experience so far suggests that my SL-1210, as it is now, would give an SP10 (equipped with the same arm and cartridge) a pretty hard time, and therefore the forthcoming platter, PSU and control circuitry upgrades, I'm hopeful will allow the SL-1210 to finally eclipse the sonic performance of its illustrious high-end ancestor. I will then have a circa-£3k turntable which should compete with almost any other on the market, and the T/T journey, in terms of maximum SPPV, will be complete, save perhaps adding a higher quality arm.
So bring it on! :cool:
Marco.
chris@panteg
11-02-2010, 10:37
When i spoke to Marco ' about the SP10 he felt the upgrades he has now ' with the platter upgrade Dave and Mike are working on , that it will elevate his deck above the SP10 .
I think its very likely it will ' but its a controversial statement i guess , it still amazes me the improvement that the cheaper timestep bearing has made to my 1210 and is still improving 6 weeks after fitting ! though very subtle now .
Beobloke
11-02-2010, 13:20
It was round the right way at the end when we were playing that piano track, after we'd swapped back from your MIT. I thought it sounded better then.... I'm not sure if you noticed the difference or not.
Your cable sounds different one way round than the other? :scratch:
You want to send that back, it must be faulty.....;)
Ali Tait
11-02-2010, 14:45
Be interesting to hear the outcome Marco.The Techie will be very good indeed if it betters a slated SP10.
pure sound
11-02-2010, 19:34
I recently pressed an old Voyd I had in the loft back into service. That's capable of showing either of my SP10's a trick or two. Rubber band powered aswell!
Your cable sounds different one way round than the other? :scratch:
You want to send that back, it must be faulty.....;)
Hehehehe..... Aye!
Ali, who knows? Time will tell... It'll be fun finding out :)
Guy, could you bring the Voyd to Scalford Hall? It would be good to have a listen to it in the AOS room :cool:
Marco.
pure sound
11-02-2010, 19:54
I'll see. I'm helping someone else move stuff around that w/e. I'm not sure there'll be room.
No worries. If you're free and can bring it, that would be good :cool:
Btw, I've been reading your comments about the Techy on Richard Dunn's site - he doesn't seem to 'get' the reason for upgrading it to the level some of us here have done.... :rolleyes:
Part of the attraction for me is that I love the outrageousness of owning such a 'souped-up DJ deck'....! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Audio memories are very short. that DJ deck started life as an increasingly unfashionable "HiFi" turntable all but forgotten in the belt drive rush of the late eighties, coupled with the beginning of the 301/401/TD124 phenomenon (the Lenco's hadn't been re-discovered then)..
pure sound
11-02-2010, 20:38
I can't see anything wrong with taking a relatively affordable, currently made turntable with a high quality drive system and then upgrading aspects of it as you & many others have. And I can't see anything wrong with companies taking the time & trouble to develop these upgrades and make them available to those who want them. Of course they are going to seek to recoup their investment, develop other products as well as make enough to keep their businesses running. Not everyone wants to take the risk of buying a 30 year old SP10, Denon or PL71, something that is potentially far more expensive to repair if it were to go wrong.
Richard still takes a negative view towards companies that make profits and that have a retail strategy more sophisticated than simply selling direct to the customer. But companies of all sizes need to make profits to have funds for R&D. Look at Naim. People often question the prices that some of their equipment costs. However, they are able to continually produce new, innovative & attractive products for their customers. A company can't support that level of R&D if it isn't profitable. Naim might not be everyone's cup of tea but you have to admire them as a business, particularly in view of the competition from brands manufactured where parts & labour are cheaper.
Indeed, I completely agree - as I did when you 'put him straight' on that matter on the thread in question on his 'forum' ;)
Not everyone wants to take the risk of buying a 30 year old SP10, Denon or PL71, something that is potentially far more expensive to repair if it were to go wrong.
Exactly... I'm not interested in that - I want a ready-made tried and tested (and continually manufacturer supported) fuss-free solution where no fiddling is involved, so I can enjoy the benefits and simply concentrate on listening to music!
What rips my knitting is being accused of starting a 'bandwagon' (or contributing to one) in terms of modifying SL-1200/1210s to a high standard... It's got feck all to do with that!! :rolleyes:
My enthusiasm for upgrading the Techy is based purely on knowing just how good this deck can be made to sound (it turning into a total bargain in high-end, not budget, terms) and relating this message to others who can afford to go down that route in the hope that they enjoy the results as much as I have - nothing else :)
But I wonder if that message will ever penetrate into his (deeply jaundiced and unfailingly cynical) head?
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
12-02-2010, 15:17
Today has been my first real chance to sit and listen to my system, reassembled at home after my trip up to Wrexham. It does sound rather wonderful, but notably 'small' in comparison to Marco's setup. There is very clearly no substitute for surface area when it comes to speakers! I'd find it very difficult to accommodate something like Marco's Lockwoods, so I must live with a very good compromise in my Avalons. Part of me longs to try some Quad 'statics, though!
That aside, I have heard from Pete Riggle in the States regarding his VTAF ( see www.vtaf.com ) made specifically for the Jelco and Technics. He says:
I could have my machinist cut a flat 1/8" thick carbon steel armboard for you with mounting holes for the VTAF Bronze Bushing and for the VTAF Guide Assembly properly located. I would fit the VTAF Bronze Bushing perfectly to this part and finish the part in low luster black enamel. My price for this part would be $75 U.S.
That's a pretty good price for an armboard already machined and finished, so I am going to order the whole caboodle shortly (the VTAF kit is $180 to $210 depending on options, not including the armboard). I want the VTAF to give easy and secure VTA adjustment, but since the VTAF kit naturally decouples the whole arm assembly from the deck, it should sound different (hopefully better) as a result. In any case, my Technics will end up sporting a variety of upgrades, some of which differ from Marco's and others, and I'm sure that many of you lurking here on AOS will be interested in how it all turns out. Well, I hope!
Hi Shuggs,
Today has been my first real chance to sit and listen to my system, reassembled at home after my trip up to Wrexham. It does sound rather wonderful, but notably 'small' in comparison to Marco's setup. There is very clearly no substitute for surface area when it comes to speakers! I'd find it very difficult to accommodate something like Marco's Lockwoods, so I must live with a very good compromise in my Avalons.
Sounds good - I must pop down your way for a sesh next time. Perhaps we could hook up when I'm down at Martin T's? :cool:
The VTAF looks interesting. I'm keen to find out how you get on with that, as I may end up doing the same thing myself.
Marco.
Snoopdog
13-02-2010, 13:48
Hi Shuggs,
Sounds good - I must pop down your way for a sesh next time. Perhaps we could hook up when I'm down at Martin T's? :cool:
The VTAF looks interesting. I'm keen to find out how you get on with that, as I may end up doing the same thing myself.
Marco.
Marco,
Let me know when you intend to visit. Shuggie and MartinT both live close by.
Will do, Steve - sounds like we're all in for a good session! :gig:
Marco.
Steve Toy
14-02-2010, 11:51
The Snoopdog system looks meticulously set up + Avalon Indras are very musical speakers.
Steve Toy
14-02-2010, 12:15
In fact so does Shuggs' system. I've heard Avalon NP2.0s on the end of my AOS/TD grounded grid pre and what is now Hamish's amp. Very nice!
Snoopdog
14-02-2010, 12:43
The Snoopdog system looks meticulously set up + Avalon Indras are very musical speakers.
Must be the Blade Audio influence:)
Let me know when you intend to visit. Shuggie and MartinT both live close by
Just picking up on this, Shuggie and Snoopdog both welcome on Sat 27th when Marco comes down. There's only one hot spot for listening, though, so you'll have to take turns!
We have two DL-103SA's not on allocation as of now.
Dave - I may put a reserve on one depending on how Marco's sounds in my system on 27th.
Snoopdog
16-02-2010, 23:17
Just picking up on this, Shuggie and Snoopdog both welcome on Sat 27th when Marco comes down. There's only one hot spot for listening, though, so you'll have to take turns!
Martin,
Thanks for the invite, I shall be there with some more LP's/CD's!
Steve
Dave Cawley
17-02-2010, 16:49
Originally Posted by Dave Cawley
We have two DL-103SA's not on allocation as of now.
Dave - I may put a reserve on one depending on how Marco's sounds in my system on 27th.
Hi Martin, they are now saying April!!
Dave
Nice one Snoops - be good to hook up :cool:
Hi Dave,
I remember when you told me Denon said they would be with you in September LAST YEAR!!! Then it was December, then whatever, and now it's bloody April 2010. Oh how I can abide 'farter abouters'!! What on earth is the reason for this outrageous delay??
Basically, Denon don't know their arse from their elbow, so I'd tell them to feck off and stick their cartridges where the sun don't shine :rolleyes:
Funny how one can obtain 103SAs on many Internet sites direct from Japan. I wonder where they're getting their stock from???
I'm not having a go at you, btw, just the idiots at Denon you're dealing with breaking their promises all the time!! :mental:
I'm afraid that I just wouldn't have the patience. I have a low tolerance threshold for incompetence, and so they'd have lost my business long ago.
Marco.
Thing is, Marco, you already *have* one :)
I'm looking forward to hearing what a 103SA can do in my system. You never know, perhaps I'll end up preferring my 33PTG. Open mind and all that...
Dave Cawley
18-02-2010, 08:38
I should have ordered more when they had them!
Dave
Denon have had small volume products on "Allocation" for many years now. They were all but stopping importing their better cartridges several years ago. I bet they only import 103's by the dozen or so...
Dave Cawley
18-02-2010, 14:09
We buy DL-103's in 20 off. Last week we sold one every day of the week (7) !
Regards
Dave
Thing is, Marco, you already *have* one :)
I'm looking forward to hearing what a 103SA can do in my system. You never know, perhaps I'll end up preferring my 33PTG. Open mind and all that...
Gosh yes, Martin - that is a distinct possibility. It'll be interesting finding out! :cool:
Marco.
Hypnotoad
20-02-2010, 14:26
If you guys knew someone here in the U.S. you can get Denon DL-103's for $118.00us or 77 pounds and DL-103R's for $196.00us or 127 pounds shipped free in the continental U.S..
Postage to the U.K. wouldn't be that much.
http://www.cometsupply.com/mp/DENON/pm/DNNDL103/
http://www.cometsupply.com/mp/DENON/pm/DNNDL103R/
Dave Cawley
20-02-2010, 16:10
If you got charged £10 postage, 5% duty and 17.5% VAT it would be 70p cheaper than my eBay price posted first class the same day from sunny Devon!
The R version, not so though!
Dave
If you got charged £10 postage, 5% duty and 17.5% VAT it would be 70p cheaper than my eBay price posted first class the same day from sunny Devon!
Love it! ;)
Marco.
Hypnotoad
20-02-2010, 19:52
If it was a sent as a gift would it still attract duty and vat?
Postage would be less than 3 pound according to the U.S. Postal Service.
Anyway I was just trying to help out, go figure.
Dave Cawley
20-02-2010, 23:08
If it was a sent as a gift would it still attract duty and vat?
If the company liked you and sent it for free, at no charge, then you would be fine.
If you paid the company and then asked them to declare it as a gift, them you could be in deep do doos.
I would not risk the criminal record for a few quid? Others here might and it would be interesting ask what happened?
Dave
Dave Hewitt
20-02-2010, 23:12
Hi
If someone in the US bought the article with your money and sent it as a gift woul'nt this get round the import fee.
Dave.
Good point, old chap! ;)
Have you found a pair of 15" Monitor Golds yet? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Dave Hewitt
20-02-2010, 23:35
Hi
Yes I have but a geezer in Wales has them.Very impressive show yesterday.Off now to tame some pepperpots,hope I dont get hurt.
Dave.
Hehehe... Yes the Rammstein was rather fun, wasn't it? Don't snag Mavis' dressing gown on anything spikey whilst you're out taming pepperpots! ;)
Tomorrow I see you resplendent in a rather fetching smocked appliqué number, with a hint of teal and salmon :eyebrows:
Marco.
Hypnotoad
21-02-2010, 02:47
Hi
If someone in the US bought the article with your money and sent it as a gift woul'nt this get round the import fee.
Dave.
That's what I was talking about, the company here in the U.S. sends it to someone in the U.S. and they forward it on.
Dave Cawley
21-02-2010, 08:28
If someone in the US bought the article with your money and sent it as a gift woul'nt this get round the import fee.
If they bought it with thier money yes, but not your money!
Dave
Marking "GIFT" on a parcel doesn't change anything to the import fees, afaik.
It is the declared price that counts : it has to have a zero value (or under the minimum for import fees).
So if, say, a relative in the states bought you a watch for your birthday and posted it to you then you would be liable for import duty and VAT on it.
Seems a bit unfair to say the least.:(
Edit, just seen Daves' comment re: who paid for the item but how are the revenue gonna know who paid originally?
twelvebears
21-02-2010, 10:37
So if, say, a relative in the states bought you a watch for your birthday and posted it to you then you would be liable for import duty and VAT on it.
Seems a bit unfair to say the least.:(
No this would not be the case. Providing there was a reasonable justification for the item truly being a gift, you would be able to claim exception, although you might have to claim it back.
In the situation you describe, you could reasonably prove a relationship to the person sending the gift and that it was indeed your birthday. However having a potentially valuable piece of hi-fi shipped from one non-related person to another, who's only proven connection was via an internet hi-fi forum.... Well let's just say that proving it was a genuine gift would be rather more difficult.
Just to evidence that this does work, Susy's uncle lives in Vancouver and sent her a rather nice bracelet for her 40th B'day. It was marked as 'gift' but for postage insurance the value was stated. Customs initially charged both import duty and VAT but both were refunded when she contacted them and provided evidence of her relationship to the sender and that it had been a B'day gift.
If someone in the US bought the article with your money and sent it as a gift woul'nt this get round the import fee.
If they bought it with thier money yes, but not your money!
Then all you have to do is make your money their money, no? It's not difficult - that's what Paypal is for ;)
Marco.
twelvebears
21-02-2010, 10:42
The way I see it is that generally you need to accept that paying import duty and VAT is to be expected and is reasonable. In certain cases you might get away without being charged, if so then great. In others it may still work out a bit cheaper and in others still, it's because there are some things which you just can't buy in this country and import is the only option.
twelvebears
21-02-2010, 10:46
Then all you have to do is make your money their money, no? It's not difficult - that's what Paypal is for ;)
Marco.
Of course it's not that simple, if so there would be people making profit from dodging import duty left and right.
As I said, it's less about the money and more about being able to make a reasonable claim that the item was a gift and that there's a plausible reason why that person would be sending it to you in the first place.
Face it guys, in most situations we'd be talking about on AOS, that just ain't gonna wash.
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