Tidal - what a load of rubbish

[montesquieu]

Finally set up a demo account on Tidal attracted by the fact that their classical list on the surface at least appears to be better than Spotify.

What a load of rubbish - I signed on for their max resolution package, except very few of the recordings actually seem to be at high bit rates.

On top of that - and its fatal flaw as far as I'm concerned - is the utterly pathetic approach to metadata. So many albums have a performer but no composer - no idea who actually wrote the music being performed.

Really not to be taken seriously. I'll certainly not be taking a paid transcription.

[Edward]

Fully agree Tom. I use to subscribe before jayzee and crew bought Tidal. Dropped the subscription very soon after as things went downhill fast.

Sent via Tapatalk

[jandl100]

Spotify Premium is much better in regard to the metadata.
I had parallel subs to Tidal and Spotify for 4 months and just let Tidal end, I had barely used it, much preferring Spot.
You get the occasional classical music howler but they are few and far between, tbh.
It's been my mains source for 2 or 3 years and I am over the moon with it. A fantastic way to discover and listen to music.

[jonners]

For Classical, I think Qobuz is very good.

[WESTLOWER]

I can't comment on Tidal for classical music but for Jazz and related it's bearable..Just.
A massive amount of Albums repackaged up with bloody awful covers and renamed with alternative Titles and no information.
Me thinks these are licence issues. I believe after a certain time (50 odd years rings a bell) the Label has no control over who repackages and reissues albums.
Anyway one is left with dire duplications of LPs with alternative titles and utterly terrible artwork. I've just cancelled my Tidal subscription
because the attention to the genre is unbelievably lazy. Also lots of tracks within Lps are greyed out!!

Tom, I agree with Jonners, give Qobuz a spin, they seem to have a better approach.

Slightly off topic, disappointing for me is the wonderful ECM label..they don't stream their catalogue on any platform at all, disappointing but an admirable and
brave stance in this vicious industry. SQ wise i've been pretty impressed with some of Tidal's content.
Better metadata?, You could always link your stored files and your music subscription account with Roon, this will tie it all together and give you better information and presentation.
but then it's more expense and more faffing about...

[hifinutt]

Finally set up a demo account on Tidal attracted by the fact that their classical list on the surface at least appears to be better than Spotify.

What a load of rubbish - I signed on for their max resolution package, except very few of the recordings actually seem to be at high bit rates.

On top of that - and its fatal flaw as far as I'm concerned - is the utterly pathetic approach to metadata. So many albums have a performer but no composer - no idea who actually wrote the music being performed.

Really not to be taken seriously. I'll certainly not be taking a paid transcription.

almost nothing i listen to is on tidal [berlin school of music] i did not bother either !

[jandl100]

Content wise I have hit it lucky with Spotify. There is just so much that is of interest that I am not bothered by what isn't there.
I could spend a dozen music lifetimes and still be discovering new gems.

[struth]

The big feature of spotify is the connect bit. it and a decent metadata system makes it the better approach. Even at 250mb it sounds pretty good. When they go lossless the rest will maybe change there ways or die.

[montesquieu]

Thanks guys I'll look again at Spotify and Qubuz, I tried once to set up a Qubuz account but I think I was abroad at the time (Taiwan or Japan) and I couldn't log in when I got back!

[User211]

Spotify sound quality isn't liveable with for me - it is pretty obviously inferior to TIDAL via my system. Qobuz was a joke compared to TIDAL with software that was a total pain in the arse. But that was a long time ago.

For the stuff I listen too, when I crossed checked with Spotify recently, Spotify's breadth of content was not superior and was actually worse in a few cases.

TIDAL's mobile app is a big plus for me as I use it a lot at work and in the car. Spotify's used to continually lose all my downloads. These days I'd hope they've fixed that.

[montesquieu]

Spotify sound quality isn't liveable with for me - it is pretty obviously inferior to TIDAL via my system. Qobuz was a joke compared to TIDAL with software that was a total pain in the arse. But that was a long time ago.

For the stuff I listen too, when I crossed checked with Spotify recently, Spotify's breadth of content was not superior and was actually worse in a few cases.

TIDAL's mobile app is a big plus for me as I use it a lot at work and in the car. Spotify's used to continually lose all my downloads. These days I'd hope they've fixed that.


It's the metadata situation that put me off primarily. For example found a CD of renaissance clavichord music the other night. Some nice stuff. But only the performer's name listed, there's no way to find out who the music was composed by (in this sort of CD there might be half a dozen different composers). Looking into it I found that's only the tip of the iceberg. Vocal works with singer but no accompanist shown, orchestral vocal works with no singers listed and in some cases no singers or composers named - just a work and a conductor. It's madness and simply demonstrates that they aren't interested in doing a decent job. This is absolutely basic stuff.

The sound quality seemed fine though paying double for supposedly hi-res content that wasn't there seems a bit off.

I just tried to fire up Qobuz, it still thinks I'm in Taiwan, and won't allow me to change language (it's stuck in French) or country, which means it won't accept my credit card either to do a trial subscription. I sent them a message previously to get it sorted but it wasn't replied to. I just tried again. I guess I could re-register with a new email address.

So it might well be Spotify. Haven't looked at it in years, TBH.

[WESTLOWER]

stick a record on! :lol:

[NickB]

Sorry couldn’t disagree more, sound quality is great and used through Roon all metadata is fine.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[WESTLOWER]

That's the point though NickB, you shouldn't have to add another premium subscription solution to make another up to scratch!


Sorry couldn’t disagree more, sound quality is great and used through Roon all metadata is fine.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[montesquieu]

An update I've just got a reply from Qobuz who have at last got me down as UK (so I could initiate a trial subscription) though I'm still all in French, I guess there must be a setting for that.

Immediately checking some of the same music - no problems at all, all the metadata is there. Haven't compared sq yet.

[WESTLOWER]

Tom Are you streaming the Qobuz on your main system to your DAC via Rpi ?
If so which controller software are using on your phone / iPad?
I only ask as in having horrid issues with Linn Kazoo software as a controller.

[montesquieu]

Tom Are you streaming the Qobuz on your main system to your DAC via Rpi ?
If so which controller software are using on your phone / iPad?
I only ask as in having horrid issues with Linn Kazoo software as a controller.

No using it in the study using my 'spare' Macbook (dedicated for music) via Bluetooth => Arcam rBlink => SPDIF coax into Schiit Multibit DAC

In the main rig I use a USB cable into a Gustard USB-SPDIF interface => coax into Audio Note DAC.

I still have an RPi but using an old Macbook now to drive everything, I replaced it with a 15in one so the old one (2009 but still working fine) came free. Replaced the CD drive with a half gig SSD and the internal with a 1TB, and took all the other crap off it so a bit of room to play with on there.

[WESTLOWER]

No using it in the study using my 'spare' Macbook (dedicated for music) via Bluetooth => Arcam rBlink => SPDIF coax into Schiit Multibit DAC

In the main rig I use a USB cable into a Gustard USB-SPDIF interface => coax into Audio Note DAC.

I still have an RPi but using an old Macbook now to drive everything, I replaced it with a 15in one so the old one (2009 but still working fine) came free. Replaced the CD drive with a half gig SSD and the internal with a 1TB, and took all the other crap off it so a bit of room to play with on there.

Sounds like you a ready for a Roon trial!

[Edward]

Prompted by this thread I just signed up for the 15 day trail of Qobuz. I'll be uninstalling it pretty pronto.

It is billed as a 15 day trial but it is a very crippled trial. Only 45 seconds per track, only 320 mp3 and many (I mean many) 404 errors. I installed the windows 64 bit app as well as the Android version. Whilst the android version saw my TV as a playback device it did not see its own app (on my Windows machine) as a playback device - so bang goes the idea the Android app can be used as a remote control - like Spotify does so well.

Also the Windows app has no easy way of seeing/playing local content. It says go to the ooo menu and 'import' but there is no ooo menu.

It did see my audio device drivers so that is a plus I guess.

[jonners]

Hi Edward,
Something must have gone very wrong somewhere because you can listen to 45sec samples without any subscription at all.

[struth]

Never had a trial before ?

Sounds like you have been classes as having had one

[WESTLOWER]

Hi Ed. I signed up before for a Qobuz trial and managed to get whole
Tracks... something has gone wonky matey..!

[montesquieu]

Prompted by this thread I just signed up for the 15 day trail of Qobuz. I'll be uninstalling it pretty pronto.

It is billed as a 15 day trial but it is a very crippled trial. Only 45 seconds per track, only 320 mp3 and many (I mean many) 404 errors. I installed the windows 64 bit app as well as the Android version. Whilst the android version saw my TV as a playback device it did not see its own app (on my Windows machine) as a playback device - so bang goes the idea the Android app can be used as a remote control - like Spotify does so well.

Also the Windows app has no easy way of seeing/playing local content. It says go to the ooo menu and 'import' but there is no ooo menu.

It did see my audio device drivers so that is a plus I guess.

Worked ok for me and not time limited in any way (though a couple of tracks said there were no rights and access could be purchased which I thought was totally not the point of a streaming service).

Sound is fine and no errors (on a Mac) and worked well with the Mac's core sound capability and out to the rBlink and my DAC. Didn't try it with mobile control.

It's missing LOADS of stuff though, not even one full set of Bach cantatas to be had, notably poorer than Tidal in this regard. Definitely not the answer for a classical fan. A lot of French stuff but that's not really my bag.

I made no attempt to play out local content as I have iTunes and JRiver installed for that (though JRiver sounds noticeably worse than it used to, I'm told by Hugo this is due to some upsampling behavior that you can no longer shut off - no longer possible to ensure that content is played out in whatever format you have saved locally, which is piss poor in my opinion, some high-handed technical type enforcing his narrow, pig-headed view on the user base. So need an alternative for that as well).

Next stop Spotify which to be fair I probably haven't looked at for five years.

[struth]

Worked ok for me and not time limited in any way (though a couple of tracks said there were no rights and access could be purchased which I thought was totally not the point of a streaming service).

Sound is fine and no errors (on a Mac) and worked well with the Mac's core sound capability and out to the rBlink and my DAC. Didn't try it with mobile control.

It's missing LOADS of stuff though, not even one full set of Bach cantatas to be had, notably poorer than Tidal in this regard. Definitely not the answer for a classical fan. A lot of French stuff but that's not really my bag.

I made no attempt to play out local content as I have iTunes and JRiver installed for that (though JRiver sounds noticeably worse than it used to, I'm told by Hugo this is due to some upsampling behavior that you can no longer shut off - no longer possible to ensure that content is played out in whatever format you have saved locally, which is piss poor in my opinion, some high-handed technical type enforcing his narrow, pig-headed view or the user base. So need an alternative for that as well).

Next stop Spotify which to be fair I probably haven't looked at for five years.

I'm using jriver23 and thought it sounded the best yet tbh.

[Edward]

I'll have another look but so far I can only play tracks up to 45 seconds. But the main issue is of course not being able to play anything above 320/MP3s (Redbook, 24/96 and 24/192 are listed but not selectable). The MP3 stream SQ is not great. Frankly 320/AAC or 320/OGG are much better quality but not offered.

[montesquieu]

I'm using jriver23 and thought it sounded the best yet tbh.

Yes it's Jriver 23. Hugo says he's stuck with 17 as in his view that was the best sounding one. I'm no expert and have only recall to go on (always dangerous) but seemed not quite right to me and definitely fell well short of the same music played AIFF format out of Jriver vs straight out of my transport into the same DAC. The raw CDs played on the transport were far more musical and detailed. Not at all what I expected.

[Edward]

I'm using jriver23 and thought it sounded the best yet tbh.

Grant, I'm a long time JRiver user and get excellent results. Are you using the app to stream stuff like Spotify, Qobuz or Tidal? If so, how?

I can use the app for streams that use http - for example http://www.radioparadise.com/m3u/aac-320.m3u - but not streaming services that a user can control such as ones I listed.

[Hudz]

I'm using jriver23 and thought it sounded the best yet tbh.

Grant have you downloaded the x64bit addon for Jriver 23? its here- https://www.jriver.com/download.html

I presume you're running a 64 bit operating system.

Didn't even realise the standard Jriver is only 32bit 'til I got an email from them. Always wondered why Foobar sounded better on my gear, it runs 64 bit asio drivers.

[Edward]

<snip>

I made no attempt to play out local content as I have iTunes and JRiver installed for that (though JRiver sounds noticeably worse than it used to, I'm told by Hugo this is due to some upsampling behavior that you can no longer shut off - no longer possible to ensure that content is played out in whatever format you have saved locally, which is piss poor in my opinion, some high-handed technical type enforcing his narrow, pig-headed view on the user base. So need an alternative for that as well).
<snip>


Tom

Not sure if the highlighted text relates to Itunes or JRiver? If JRiver then most definitely a user can change the sampling or not. The default is 'no change' but can be changed to anything one wants (subject to the DAC accepting the sample rate). Look in Tools under DSP and audio output functions.

[struth]

Yes it's the 64 Ive got. There is a special driver for it too but I stopped using it at some stage. Don't use aiff only flac and mostly ape now. There are a number of setting adjustments that can tailor it as well.

If u use the special driver you might be able to run Spotify through it. Can't remember if it works. I now control Spotify from iPad and play from chrome canary for best sound

[montesquieu]

Tom

Not sure if the highlighted text relates to Itunes or JRiver? If JRiver then most definitely a user can change the sampling or not. The default is 'no change' but can be changed to anything one wants (subject to the DAC accepting the sample rate). Look in Tools under DSP and audio output functions.

No Jriver. yes I have output encoding 'none' selected but that only concerns DSD .... I'm told it now converts everything to 24bit whether you want it to or not. Sample rate apparently can be controlled but not bit depth. (I need to constrain the sample rate as my AN DAC 'only' goes to 24/96 anyway).

EDIT - some info in the Jriver WIKI

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Bitdepth

Specifically:

<i>'When Media Center inputs data, all audio is first converted to 64bit. This ensures that any processing like digital volume, Replay Gain, or any other DSP (if any is enabled) is done with as much precision as possible. It also puts the data into a format that is efficient for a computer to handle, and makes it so that tracks of varying bitdepths can seamlessly transition. '</i>

From https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Bitdepth

<i>'In older versions of Media Center, you'd set the Bitdepth setting explicitly here. Modern versions of Media Center set this automatically. '</i>

So there is now no choice in the matter - it buggers around with the signal on the input to JRiver and there's no way to stop it doing that. Unlike previously. Arrogant sods.

[WESTLOWER]

Qobuz is a streaming AND download service, which I ascertained after signing up!
It shows and teases lots of nice ECM catalogue titles, classical and jazz, so I handed over my corn to find out ..
ECM is download only and won't steam on Qobuz... I felt quite swindled.. so cancelled.

[Edward]

No Jriver. yes I have output encoding 'none' selected but that only concerns DSD .... I'm told it now converts everything to 24bit whether you want it to or not. Sample rate apparently can be controlled but not bit depth. (I need to constrain the sample rate as my AN DAC 'only' goes to 24/96 anyway).

EDIT - some info in the Jriver WIKI

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Bitdepth

Specifically:

<i>'When Media Center inputs data, all audio is first converted to 64bit. This ensures that any processing like digital volume, Replay Gain, or any other DSP (if any is enabled) is done with as much precision as possible. It also puts the data into a format that is efficient for a computer to handle, and makes it so that tracks of varying bitdepths can seamlessly transition. '</i>

From https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Bitdepth

<i>'In older versions of Media Center, you'd set the Bitdepth setting explicitly here. Modern versions of Media Center set this automatically. '</i>

So there is now no choice in the matter - it buggers around with the signal on the input to JRiver and there's no way to stop it doing that. Unlike previously. Arrogant sods.

Ah I was just about to respond to your post before you added the edit.

Yes I also leave Output encoding to 'none' as you say it relates to DSD. But I do take care with the sample rate setting ensuring anything over 192 is downsampled to a multiple of its class (44.1 or 48). So sample rate is user selectable.

The fact that JRiver outputs at 24 or 32 bits will make zero difference to the sq. All it is doing is padding the word length with zeros. It is not adding or subtracting anything - unlike changing the sample rate.

[struth]

No Jriver. yes I have output encoding 'none' selected but that only concerns DSD .... I'm told it now converts everything to 24bit whether you want it to or not. Sample rate apparently can be controlled but not bit depth. (I need to constrain the sample rate as my AN DAC 'only' goes to 24/96 anyway).

EDIT - some info in the Jriver WIKI

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Bitdepth

Specifically:

<i>'When Media Center inputs data, all audio is first converted to 64bit. This ensures that any processing like digital volume, Replay Gain, or any other DSP (if any is enabled) is done with as much precision as possible. It also puts the data into a format that is efficient for a computer to handle, and makes it so that tracks of varying bitdepths can seamlessly transition. '</i>

From https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Bitdepth

<i>'In older versions of Media Center, you'd set the Bitdepth setting explicitly here. Modern versions of Media Center set this automatically. '</i>

So there is now no choice in the matter - it buggers around with the signal on the input to JRiver and there's no way to stop it doing that. Unlike previously. Arrogant sods.

it goes in as 16/44 and comes out 16/44 for me unless I ask it otherwise.(sticking it up to 64 temp is just for processing purposes and shouldnt affect sound) Ive never used the dsd stuff. The headphone setting pops it up to 32 bit as far as I can see. I like the headphone setting in it but for headphones. i have a few settings set in different ssved sections and switch depending on where I send it. Some folk dont like doing this but to me its just the same as changing headphones or dac/speakers etc.

[montesquieu]

Ah I was just about to respond to your post before you added the edit.

Yes I also leave Output encoding to 'none' as you say it relates to DSD. But I do take care with the sample rate setting ensuring anything over 192 is downsampled to a multiple of its class (44.1 or 48). So sample rate is user selectable.

The fact that JRiver outputs at 24 or 32 bits will make zero difference to the sq. All it is doing is padding the word length with zeros. It is not adding or subtracting anything - unlike changing the sample rate.

I'd really rather it didn't do that. What I want is the option to play stuff out 100% in the native format I have on my hard drive, whatever it is (and it varies a lot depending where I sourced the file), rather than changing it. It used to do that, and now it doesn't.

And yes aware of the issue of keeping sample rates to multiples.

[Edward]

I'd really rather it didn't do that. What I want is the option to play stuff out 100% in the native format I have on my hard drive, whatever it is (and it varies a lot depending where I sourced the file), rather than changing it. It used to do that, and now it doesn't.

And yes aware of the issue of keeping sample rates to multiples.


But all it is are zeroes. But I do understand the purist angle. :)

[cyclopse]

Spotify Premium is much better in regard to the metadata.
I had parallel subs to Tidal and Spotify for 4 months and just let Tidal end, I had barely used it, much preferring Spot.
You get the occasional classical music howler but they are few and far between, tbh.
It's been my mains source for 2 or 3 years and I am over the moon with it. A fantastic way to discover and listen to music.

Another Spotify user here. Love the way it interfaces with RuneAudio on the Rasperry Pi. I know there is testing going on at higher bitrates. So sound quality that's already very good may come up to Tidal's level.

[struth]

It is being tested in beta.

[jonners]

It's missing LOADS of stuff though, not even one full set of Bach cantatas to be had, notably poorer than Tidal in this regard.

I didn't actually count them, but most if not all of Suzuki's Bach Cantatas on BIS are available on Qobuz. (It may take a while for them all to load).

[montesquieu]

I didn't actually count them, but most if not all of Suzuki's Bach Cantatas on BIS are available on Qobuz. (It may take a while for them all to load).

Well only about 3 came up on a search for Bach Cantatas or for Suzuki

[jandl100]

Well only about 3 came up on a search for Bach Cantatas or for Suzuki

31 come up on Spotify for the search "bach cantata suzuki".
Others might be available with different search criteria - that metadata, eh! ;)

[Gazjam]

Tidal Hifi suscriber here.

You can tell the increase in sound quality over Spotify and I find Tidal playlists excellent.
You can also access 75,000 music videos as well, which is cool.
For music I run Tidal through Roon into the Transporter, or through the bluray player to watch HD music videos, both with at least 16/44 quality played through my Dac.
Dont have an MQA compatible Dac but the MQA "Master" versions of albums do sound better than 16/44.

I think Tidals great personally and the way it integrates with your own music library in Roon is superb.

More expensive than Spotify, but at a fiver a week it's good value in my book.

[Ammonite Audio]

Tom

Not sure if the highlighted text relates to Itunes or JRiver? If JRiver then most definitely a user can change the sampling or not. The default is 'no change' but can be changed to anything one wants (subject to the DAC accepting the sample rate). Look in Tools under DSP and audio output functions.

Just to clarify - from JRiver MC19 onwards, you can still select different output sampling rates, but the option to select 'source bit depth' disappeared. For me, that change brought in a superficially 'smoother' and 'nicer' sound character but robbed the music of meaning and flow. Many geeks will no doubt tell me that re-quantisation is totally transparent, but I can hear the effect and I don't like it. Luckily, MC17 works a treat and I still have full control over all aspects of output format; and leaving absolutely every additional DSP option switched off works best (for me, of course). I use a Mutec MC-3 +USB between my music laptop and DAC, and with that I've even found that 'kernel streaming' sounds way better than WASAP/WASAPI Event Style/ASIO etc. Everyone else's mileage may vary and as long as everyone is happy with their solutions, that's all that matters.

[jonners]

Well only about 3 came up on a search for Bach Cantatas or for Suzuki

I searched again for 'Bach Cantatas Suzuki' on the Qobuz web-based player and clicked on 'See all albums'. This time I counted them and there were 60 volumes available!

[struth]

with Bach Cantatas, I got bored counting after 400 on Spotify:lol: