View Full Version : Croft Micro II
Hi All,
I'll be comparing this against a Chinese Marantz 7 line only valve pre clone and a Yaqin MS-12B (valve line and MM phono stage pre) later this evening - any bets on the result? :)
Glenn has serviced the HT regulation and updated the output stage to latest spec.
Sorry for cr*p phone camera piccies for now;
http://images.fotopic.net/?id=63257466&noresize=1
http://images.fotopic.net/?id=63257465&noresize=1
Cheers, Richard
hifi_dave
10-02-2010, 13:16
Brings back memories of the good ol' days when we used to sell 4-6 of those every week and often with a power-amp to go with. Do you know, I've never had one back for repair in all these years.
You're gonna lurve it.
Cheers Dave - do you know rough years that the Micro II were manufactured? Forgot to ask Glenn.
All my kit is getting on a bit by intention; '77 LP12, Naim CDi, Mark Levinson # 29, early (bi-wire) Sonus Faber Cencertinos and ESL57's midway being rebuilt. The Croft fits right in, although is a little cosmetically challenged externally (may knock up a wooden front facia for it) :)
Richard
hifi_dave
10-02-2010, 20:00
Not sure after all these years but I would guess two years in that form at £150 and then ten or so in the fancy black box at £200.
You can understand why we used to sell so many now you've got one. We used to demo it up against some serious American gear and it would sell on it's merit not just price. Not only did it sound so good but it was practical, reliable and silent. Put on a USA jobbie and it whistled and hummed and went 'wheeee' when you touched the case. The Croft just made music.:lol:
The ML No.29 was (IMO) one of the best amps they made, sounding much more like a good tube amp than anything which has come after.
It's written "CD" on it ? :eek:
looks as though Glenn has abandoned the 85A2 regulator as it doesn't seem to have anything connected to it now apart from one wire and there's loads of new resistors around the power supply bits.
I wonder if that's one of the things he'd do to mine?
Thanks All.
HiFi Dave - what year did Glenn make the Micro II, do you recall?
I've only had a brief listening session so far and it does indeed sound superb, very fast but still captures every nuance. I was initially concerned as CD sounded better than vinyl, but believe this was down to a dirty stylus :o I really don't recall any problems 2 days ago when I last played an LP via the Yaqin, but via the Croft sound was very hard and edgy. I left it on a couple of hours while I put kids to bed and cleaned stylus, I could only listen at low volumes but a quick blast this morning confirms the hard edge has gone. Need to listen more.
Dimitri - yep, CD and PU for the phono input - I'm guessing late 80s manufacture date :D
Dave - the smaller tube at top left is new, it is a Neon voltage reference for the regulator tube which is the longer one on the right. The output tube (a nice Electro Harmonix) sits under these 2 - that is the one with the new resistors as he updated to his latest output stage spec which sounds better.
All in very pleased - although I have a nagging doubt still that CD sounds better than vinyl; if this is the case I have to suspect the 2 JJ tubes for the MM stage, and will ask Glenn what was in there before. I have used ECC81/82 JJs in the past as a starting reference point for tube rolling with NOS variants as the JJs provided a good quality starting point, and can't imagine their 83s would be duffers? More listening will reveal all!
Cheers, Richard
Ali Tait
11-02-2010, 10:02
The new TJ's seem to be well thought of,and the prices are not too insane,at least compared to top quality NOS.
hifi_dave
11-02-2010, 11:23
Richard,
After all these years I can't recall when Glenn first made the Micro II. I would hazard a guess at 83 or 84. He had another pre-amp previous to the Micro II in a much larger box with a lovely (:eek:) crackle brown front and cream lid but I don't recall what it was called. Perhaps it was a Micro ??
What TT and cartridge do you have ?
Thanks Dave - I drop Glenn an email to see if he remembers.
I have a DL-110 on a rewired/restubbed RB250, mounted to a '77 LP12 with Sole subchassis. This sounded great into the Yaqin MM stage, and definitely sounds better via the Croft - issue is the relative performance of CD via the line input (if it still is an issue - I really need to listen more) - I suspect it's performance has increased more than the phono stage; not just against the Yaqin (which had a crap line level stage), but also compared to my previous line only Marantz 7 Chinese valve pre clone and Naim MC cards.
Is probably nothing - just need to listen more :) And keep my open for a pair of decent NOS ECC83s at a sensible price!
Richard
Thanks All.
All in very pleased - although I have a nagging doubt still that CD sounds better than vinyl; Cheers, Richard
CD has less distortions at audio levels and frequencies than vinyl usually has, which is one reason why many love mid quality vinyl replay - the distortions warm and fuzzy up the music a tad.
You may need to look very carefully at your vinyl setup and set it up very carefully, rather than condemn the valves out of hand IMO. I still like the CV4004's in my Croft phono stage.
Oh yeah, the early Crofts did roll the low bass off on the phono stage as I remember and in the case of mine, the bass got less and less as the valves aged. Remember, it's "only" a Micro, so don't expect series 25 performance from it, but enjoy it as it is..
Ali Tait
11-02-2010, 14:53
Thanks - TJ?
Richard
TJ Full Music valves.See here-
http://www.diyhifisupply.com/node/437
Left it on since last night, sounds perfect tonight :) I assume issue was initially dirty stylus and then the new tubes. Now vinyl sounds much better than CD and I am amazingly happy - both sources sound better than I have ever heard before in my system!
Glenn mentioned that his new output stage is phase inverting - I tried reversing speaker cables but preferred it wired as it was (unless my ML #29 is also phase inverting?). Of course, I only listened to Show Me Some Emotion...maybe that track/album has incorrect absolute phase....that way madness lies :D
HiFi Dave - missed your comment on the #29 - it only cost me CHF.600 (~€280) about 10 years ago 2nd hand - I wasn't convinced so insisted on a home dem, and was mightily impressed when I did listen to it at home. It's *only* 50W though ;)
Cheers all - if anyone has a pair of NOS ecc83s they'd part with, please let me know.
Richard
The Grand Wazoo
11-02-2010, 20:27
Richard:
(unless my ML #29 is also phase inverting?).
......nope
hifi_dave
11-02-2010, 20:40
HiFi Dave - missed your comment on the #29 - it only cost me CHF.600 (~€280) about 10 years ago 2nd hand - I wasn't convinced so insisted on a home dem, and was mightily impressed when I did listen to it at home. It's *only* 50W though ;)
Richard
But it's a good 50 wpc. We used it with big Maggies, Apogees, Infinity, ATC and other difficult speakers we had at the time and the 'little' No.29 just kept on going. After that, Madrigal went on to much more complicated and (in their opinion) more sophisticated amps but to me they never had the magic of the No.29. 280 Euro !!!...:lolsign:
By the time I remember HiFi dave getting the ML amps in, Glenn had been "captured" by his new business partner and was unavailable. The situation was bad and it took the ML28 preamp to genuinely equal or better the Croft preamps of the period. this came at a £2500 rrp though IIRC, but it was a stunning piece of kit.
I remember hearing the two ML power amps into Maggie 1C's, which weren't hugely expensive at this time. The little amp sounded great, but I have to admit that the bigger one made the image expand in all directions..
Yeah, while in Australia I listened to both good and bad US gear, mostly bad to be honest. I'd been using DIY (not my design, but my Ozzie mentor's) valve power amps when I auditioned the ML in Switzerland and was expecting it to be bad (compared to then in service push-pull valve design) - it simply blew the PP away into my SF Concertinos (I assume, but don't know, they are not that easy a load). My comment on only 50W was tongue in cheek - I have no doubt the PSU smoothing caps could fuse a screwdriver without blinking :) But officially it is only 50W.
But my SE valve hybrid monos come out to play soon, now that the kids are a bit older and I have a dedicated hifi room. Into the SFs will be interesting, into the ESL57s I am rebuilding I have no doubts the SEs will avail.
For now I have a pre I can never imagine replacing; modifying in due course yes, but the basic design just works and makes music. I am very happy. Anyone wanting to buy a Yaqin MS-12B or a heavily modified Marantz 7 valve pre clone, let me know ;)
Richard
Hi Richard,
Glenn mentioned that his new output stage is phase inverting...
This is actually very important... All Croft preamps phase invert, and so correct imaging will not be obtained unless speaker cable polarity at the amp end is reversed! :)
The effect isn't subtle with most recordings, as without doing so, you get a 'hole in the middle' effect between the speakers...
My Charisma-X is exactly the same in terms of phase inversion - thing is, I didn't know until Glenn visited one evening and pointed it out to me... I'd be listening to it 'wrongly' up until that point for about 3 years! :doh:
Marco.
Thanks Marco - I tried swapping speaker polarity while listening to Joan Armatrading's Show Some Emotion on vinyl after Glenn mentioned this. Swapping collapsed the sound-stage and reduced imaging and high frequency "ting" (me no good at describing what I hear, but high frequencies became compressed). Maybe this is an issue with this album only, I guess I need to check some more - but I confess to being surprised at the difference I could hear, it wasn't subtle. However, I ain't gonna' be swapping speaker cables round depending on album!
Oh - my Micro was made in 1989 :)
Richard
To add: none of my listening has been critical to date. I have 18 month and 3 year old daughters, this means my listening is done dancing around the room with them to the music, or at very low volume when they are asleep. Roll on the weekend!
Richard
Lol - whatever works, Richard :eyebrows:
Marco.
hifi_dave
11-02-2010, 22:22
To add: none of my listening has been critical to date. I have 18 month and 3 year old daughters, this means my listening is done dancing around the room with them to the music,
Richard
The best way to listen IMO....:dance:
Another 24 hours being left on and it is now simply stunning :D Wall of Voodoo, Dark Continent making me smile from 2 rooms away while I type this, I'm off ;)
Richard
hifi_dave
12-02-2010, 19:31
So, you've got multi-room now...:)
When the wife and kids are out, the whole house is multi-room :)
Dave - on PFM you were part of the reason I investigated Croft, thank you!
Richard
hifi_dave
12-02-2010, 20:38
It's a pleasure to spread the word about such good gear...:cool:
Rare Bird
12-02-2010, 20:39
http://images.fotopic.net/?id=63257465&noresize=1
Hi Richard a familiar rats nest to the left inside (sorry my pet hate is untiness nothing off intended)..I'd have gone for the 'super' pre better laid out inside
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/SuperMicro.jpg
btw i think he's got that Super cover on the wrong way around
Oh I don't know. I remember new ones looking like this I think..
hifi_dave
12-02-2010, 21:30
It's back to front. You can see that it doesn't line up at the bottom...:doh:
OK Dave :lol: :D
You can get back to your Isis valve CD player now........
Rare Bird
12-02-2010, 21:36
It's back to front. You can see that it doesn't line up at the bottom...:doh:
It is your right cos i used to have a Hood Phonostage kit that used the same case, smaller & black.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/SuperMicro.jpg
btw i think he's got that Super cover on the wrong way around
What's the word on those Super Micros compared to the newer stuff?
hifi_dave
12-02-2010, 23:10
If you believe Glenn, his latest models are the best he's made.
Rare Bird
12-02-2010, 23:12
Whys that then?
:flasher:
Hi Dave,
Having heard his new 25R in my own system, I would have to agree!
It's not *quite* as good as my (heavily modded) CX but it's not far off, which is a remarkable achievement considering the massive difference in cost :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
12-02-2010, 23:35
Hi Dave,
Having heard his new 25R in my own system, I would have to agree!
Yeh but you talking a £700 pre there
Yup, I know dude. It's actually £1200 for a 25R.
I'm just agreeing with Glenn that, IMO, his current designs are the best ever. If you really want something special he will also build you a bespoke design, and then the sky's the limit! :)
Marco.
This is actually very important... All Croft preamps phase invert, and so correct imaging will not be obtained unless speaker cable polarity at the amp end is reversed! :)
Can anyone explain (electrically or mechanically) how a polarity inversion on both speakers can have any audible effect ? :scratch:
It doesn't make sense to me, sorry. What do I miss here ? :(
hifi_dave
13-02-2010, 11:56
Yup, I know dude. It's actually £1200 for a 25R.
I'm just agreeing with Glenn that, IMO, his current designs are the best ever. If you really want something special he will also build you a bespoke design, and then the sky's the limit! :)
Marco.
The R series units are £1400 each including VAT. For that you get a 'world class' (whatever that means but it's an impressive title) pre-amp including a stunning MM phono stage.
Rare Bird
13-02-2010, 12:31
The R series units are £1400 each including VAT. For that you get a 'world class' (whatever that means but it's an impressive title) pre-amp including a stunning MM phono stage.
Discusting you lot must have money growning on trees :lol:
The R series units are £1400 each including VAT. For that you get a 'world class' (whatever that means but it's an impressive title) pre-amp including a stunning MM phono stage.
Ah, thanks for the clarification, Dave :)
The phono stage is indeed STUNNING on the 25R - it was every bit as good as the one in my modified CX, and that's saying something!
Marco.
For that you get a 'world class' (whatever that means)...
Considering the "normal" bits' sound qualities, I think I would need to change speakers to appreciate a 'world class'... :eyebrows:
hifi_dave
13-02-2010, 13:44
Thing is, you could easily spend 5 times the cost and get something that sounds worse - been there, done that..:doh: True, you would have a wonderful case, great marketing and proper packaging...:rolleyes:
And a big hard-on!! :lol: ;)
Marco.
Just wait if Glenn ever goes into a multi-supply two box version....... And all this with "standard" components and pots etc.....
Is PSU the key difference as you go through Glenn's range then? If I ever mod mine I will be looking at separate HT and heater supplies per valve, but given the output stage is in one valve I assume his better designs must split this?
Richard
From memory, the line stage in the R has two valves, but I could be wrong on this
http://www.croftacoustics.co.uk/micro25_R.html
If memories of the Mega Micro are to be believed, Glenn took the basic circuit of my preamp, used octal valves as per Marco's preamp and had a separate box full of dedicated power supplies for each stage. The sound was very "big" but i found it a bit too meaty in balance. I'm not sure if many were sold however and the frame transformers did hum on Dave's demo model..
Cheers Dave. I'm in no rush to do anything but listen for a while now.
Richard
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