View Full Version : Triode's 300B , 2A3 , 811 , 845
chris@panteg
10-02-2010, 11:36
I wanted to talk about the DHT 1st developed in the 30's and considered by many the only device suitable for audio ? .
So does anyone prefer the Triode over Pentode ' i have owned both and prefer the triode sound , in my case the 2A3 but having heard a top notch 300B (Art Audio Diavolo with MB border patrol bi amped , and also a Kondo 845 amp and the 811 Ongaku , i do like the extra grunt the 845 has .
Push pull or single ended ? does anyone on here use a Triode amp , i know Marco likes his Copper amp (kt88) these amps are pretty much out of my reach at the moment , but the Icon Audio 845 looks interesting at the price ' can you build an 845 amp as good and for how much ? .
Any thoughts ' i know some enthusiasts hate the 300B with a passion :rolleyes:.
Yes; I have a Border Patrol SE300B power amp.
It's a bit of a temperamental bugger, but when working properly it sounds excellent to my ears. I tend not to listen to 'headbanging' music, either in terms of genre or volume levels, but it's not just a vocal/acoustic guitar amp; I listen to jazz, rock, classical, blues, reggae and it does all of them well.
However, though I prefer it to any transistor amp I've heard, I haven't listened to enough push-pull types to make any meaningful comparisons.
chris@panteg
10-02-2010, 12:20
Hi Joe
I had a dem of your amp at Kevin Scot's it sounded lovely for about 2 hours and then 1 channel stopped working ! Paul a friend ' was with me ' he had the Diavolo's (sold) and stated this unreliability as the reason he went for the Art Audio amps .
I do like the BP amps though they sing with Kevin's Living Voice speakers .
I've come close to ditching my BP at times because of the reliability thing, though to be fair mine is an early prototype model that's seen a fair amount of use.
There's nothing worse than wanting to listen to music only to find that your amp is making strange noises or not working at all, especially when you're a technical know-nothing like me who couldn't fettle an amp to save my life!
Dave Cawley
10-02-2010, 12:35
Triodes rule OK! But there is a lot of junk out there.
Dave
Ali Tait
10-02-2010, 14:13
Yep,definately prefer triode SE amps.Favourites would probably be 211 and 45.You need high efficiency speakers for 45 SE,but they produce a great sound.I've also had 845,300b and 813 SE amps.Generally,845 gives good bass,but is harder to get very good treble out of,whereas the 211 is the other way round.813 I think gives a very good all-round sound triode strapped,great bass and top end,maybe slightly weaker in the mids than the other two.
Giant Haystacks
10-02-2010, 19:55
i would like to get a 211 amp built sometime i have tryed quite a few of the triodes the 45 ,2a3 and have had best sucess with 6a3 and new old stock maybe 5 dollars sometimes. px4 valve would be worth a try but they are too expensive new old stock good luck with your research
I'm very happy with my 300B PP amp. After a bit of a re-wire and some fresh caps here and there, it's rockin' like a bastard! :eek:
Spectral Morn
10-02-2010, 21:15
I like the purity and clarity of triode valves such as 6A3 and 2A3, but ultimately I prefer the compromise an 845 or 6c33c tube gives. Clarity and purity but also balls. Obviously implementation is vital, for any amplifier (anything in audio too), so I may yet have to hear that 300B amp to fall in love with that tube (not yet though).
The way things have worked out so far for me I have ended up with two push pull amplifiers one a KT66 (Music Reference RM200) and the other a 6C33C amplifier (Bat VK75). This is mainly due to speakers, I need the extra power. I do love (bit of nostalgia) my Audio innovations Series 500 (Push pull EL34) and the Series 1000 mk3 (EL 34 though I am using Tung-Sol 5881s), though the Series 500 is veiled compared to my other kit.
Regards D S D L
chris@panteg
11-02-2010, 11:28
I'm very happy with my 300B PP amp. After a bit of a re-wire and some fresh caps here and there, it's rockin' like a bastard! :eek:
Hi Mike
That must be an amazing combo with your Yammy's :).
Neil ' i am not familiar with the 6a3 is it like a bigger brother to the 2A3 ?,
a disadvantage of the 2A3 is the puny output , with my 2nd audio's you had 4 per monobloc giving an output of 15 watts if you were lucky ' in reality they sounded gutsy and powerful with the Snell's (and not screechy DSJR Dave :)) .
Spectral Morn
11-02-2010, 11:50
Hi Mike
That must be an amazing combo with your Yammy's :).
Neil ' i am not familiar with the 6a3 is it like a bigger brother to the 2A3 ?,
a disadvantage of the 2A3 is the puny output , with my 2nd audio's you had 4 per monobloc giving an output of 15 watts if you were lucky ' in reality they sounded gutsy and powerful with the Snell's (and not screechy DSJR Dave :)) .
Hi Chris
Good question. answer I assume so, but I am not sure. I have heard this valve only once so far, in a 5 watt Class A single ended amplifier. Beautiful sounding amp (though it runs way to hot, as all the components are wedged into way to small a case. I fear this might lend its self to long term problems; which seems to be the case with the unit I heard).
I much preferred the 6B4G version of the AI Second Audios...much bigger ballsier sound (lacking the purity of the 2A3 though). The AI kit sounded wonderful at the time, with a Voyd front end, Series 1000 pre-amplifier,Audio Note silver cables and Snell speakers. However having tried a Series 1000 pre and two different pairs of Second Audios recently, I must admit to being underwhelmed by them. When I first got into audio way back in the late 80's, for me anyway these were my Holy Grail....not anymore. What I have currently eats them for breakfast. No doubt Anthony TD, Border Patrol or even Guy of Pure Sound could make them better.
Regards D S D L
chris@panteg
11-02-2010, 12:27
very interesting Neil
My old set up was a Voyd .5 but with reference psu the 2nd audio's and of course my type J's ' but with the Concordant Excelsior pre ' i later upgraded the 2nd's with the border patrol psu 's they made a humongous difference , so much so i would not have another pair unless they came with the BP's or i intended to fit some ! , so yes i am not surprised by that at all .
I think on balance the Concordant pre was not an ideal match for the 2nd's ' the P2 and L2 being ideal .
pure sound
11-02-2010, 13:16
With the benefit of hindsight there was alot about the First & Second Audio amps that could have been done better. Power supplies, filament supplies, driver stages etc. However that was 1987, few people even knew what DHT's were then never mind used them for commercial products. It's difficult to appreciate how incredulous people were when presented with a 7 watt amplifier back then. Seems quite powerful now!
The 6B4G's we used then were NOS. They quickly became scarce and the Russian 6B4G's you can buy now weren't widely available then for obvious reasons. Fortunately the Chinese began making 2A3's but, like Neil, I don't think they were quite as nice sounding. That was all there was though. No UX-4 bases then either. We had to buy octal based 2A3's so we'd have sockets to put them into.
Valves like the PX4 were quite easy to find (& cheap) then aswell. Again because no one had a use for them. I had quite a few. GE 211's and RCA 845's too. Cetron were also still making the 300B in the US in very small quantities. It all became alot more valuable once people began to realise what these things could do.
Ali Tait
11-02-2010, 14:41
Hi Chris
Good question. answer I assume so, but I am not sure. I have heard this valve only once so far, in a 5 watt Class A single ended amplifier. Beautiful sounding amp (though it runs way to hot, as all the components are wedged into way to small a case. I fear this might lend its self to long term problems; which seems to be the case with the unit I heard).
I much preferred the 6B4G version of the AI Second Audios...much bigger ballsier sound (lacking the purity of the 2A3 though). The AI kit sounded wonderful at the time, with a Voyd front end, Series 1000 pre-amplifier,Audio Note silver cables and Snell speakers. However having tried a Series 1000 pre and two different pairs of Second Audios recently, I must admit to being underwhelmed by them. When I first got into audio way back in the late 80's, for me anyway these were my Holy Grail....not anymore. What I have currently eats them for breakfast. No doubt Anthony TD, Border Patrol or even Guy of Pure Sound could make them better.
Regards D S D L
AFAIK 6b4g and 2a3 are the same valve,just different heater voltages.
pure sound
11-02-2010, 15:50
Chinese made 2A3's from the late 80's & early 90's didn't sound the same as US made 6B4G's from 30-50 years earlier though. AI were fitting Westinghouse, Ken-Rad, Sylvania, whatever we could find for the first few years.
Seems quite a few of us cut our valve teeth on the Audio Innovations trail.
I was running the usual stuff and then I met Mario, now of Audionote, then running a shop in Farnham. He started me off with a Series 300 Mk1 but over time this progressed until I ended up with Voyd Ref/Helius Cyalene/IO into Series 1000 pre/First Audio power and the ubiquitous Snell JIIs. The downhill run started when I "upgraded", contrary to advice, to Impulse H2s and from that day on the overall magic of the AI system disappeared. :(
Happy days :)
Ali Tait
11-02-2010, 18:18
Chinese made 2A3's from the late 80's & early 90's didn't sound the same as US made 6B4G's from 30-50 years earlier though. AI were fitting Westinghouse, Ken-Rad, Sylvania, whatever we could find for the first few years.
I wouldn't expect them to! :lolsign: They have got much better generally in recent times though.I've heard good things lately about the small TJ valves,and of course they now make 300b,2a3 and 45's amongst others,all very good by all accounts.
Spectral Morn
11-02-2010, 21:22
Seems quite a few of us cut our valve teeth on the Audio Innovations trail.
I was running the usual stuff and then I met Mario, now of Audionote, then running a shop in Farnham. He started me off with a Series 300 Mk1 but over time this progressed until I ended up with Voyd Ref/Helius Cyalene/IO into Series 1000 pre/First Audio power and the ubiquitous Snell JIIs. The downhill run started when I "upgraded", contrary to advice, to Impulse H2s and from that day on the overall magic of the AI system disappeared. :(
Happy days :)
I had a series 300 mk1 as my first serious amplifier. I loved it. I upgraded to a series 500 which I had modded by fitting better quality pots and replacing the crap Rca jacks. A friend fitted Tiffany to the case direct, using the existing hole cut outs. The board the RCAs were mounted on was rubbish imho, it flexed any time you fitted a decent cable.
There was something magical and highly synergistic about those AI set ups.
Impulse yuck.
Regards D S D L
Spectral Morn
11-02-2010, 21:39
AFAIK 6b4g and 2a3 are the same valve,just different heater voltages.
That may be so. However as Guy says the early valves from China (Gold Dragon and the like) were crap. Rubbish reliability and at times a thin etched sound. The AI Second audio series both Mk 1 and Mk2 technically used different valves, all be it they are, say from the same family....the Mk1 6B4G and the Mk2 Chinese 2A3. Shortages in 6B4G and costs, meant that AI switched to 2A3. Recently in my own system (upstairs) the Mk1 was imho/e quite a bit better. It had more drive, a bigger sound stage and better bass. The Mk2 had slightly better clarity and detail, but overall in my system was thinner sounding and more forward. The Mk1 had less noise too.
I tried them with an AI Series 1000 pre-amplifier (always wanted one of these), an EAR 864, BAT VK31Se and BAT Vk3I. The EAR was the better match. Ultimately I preferred a set of AI series 1000 mk3 mono amps, that came along at the same time. The match with the EAR pre was magical, if lacking in detail and transparency compared to my other pre-amplifier-power amplifier combinations. Despite that I kept them, as the match with a Chord One CD player and my Anthony Gallo's, does something excellent when combined.
Regards D S D L
Ali Tait
11-02-2010, 23:00
I have heard some lovely 6b4g SE DIY amps.A nice valve all round,along with the 2a3.
old valves like the px4 and px25 are in my veiw still good value.. the better valves of today's production still don't seem to quite get to the levels the old valves did, at nearly the same sort of prices...
the advantage with px4/25's is that there are few 'px' amps out there, most are diy jobs.. so the prices have been reasonable... unlike 300b's which is a much rarer tube in this country (old production ) and the amps are common in the dealers
2a3's and 6b4g are at a disadvantage in my books, they are usually have 2 anode's in each valve ( most are 2x 45 valves in one) so using these, one is running effectively a parallel single ended... not ideal in my opinion.. but not that bad either..
there are some early us mono plate 2a3's which i would guess will be on the lines of the old px4 globes.. but rare and expensive...
my px 25 amp will do headbanging music better than most.. but that the other issue with small amps...to get a balanced sound usually big expensive speakers are required to get the very best out of them...
cheers
steve
Spectral Morn
12-02-2010, 10:45
old valves like the px4 and px25 are in my veiw still good value.. the better valves of today's production still don't seem to quite get to the levels the old valves did, at nearly the same sort of prices...
the advantage with px4/25's is that there are few 'px' amps out there, most are diy jobs.. so the prices have been reasonable... unlike 300b's which is a much rarer tube in this country (old production ) and the amps are common in the dealers
2a3's and 6b4g are at a disadvantage in my books, they are usually have 2 anode's in each valve ( most are 2x 45 valves in one) so using these, one is running effectively a parallel single ended... not ideal in my opinion.. but not that bad either..
there are some early us mono plate 2a3's which i would guess will be on the lines of the old px4 globes.. but rare and expensive...
my px 25 amp will do headbanging music better than most.. but that the other issue with small amps...to get a balanced sound usually big expensive speakers are required to get the very best out of them...
cheers
steve
Hi Steve
Love the pictures of your latest projects over in the DIY Gallery thread. No doubt you will have one of the best and most interesting rooms at the upcoming bake-off show (assuming you are there). Your designs look fantastic and imho put many commercial designs to shame visually. Sadly I have not heard any of your kit :(....some day perhaps :) Those that have say they are excellent.
Regards D S D L
Ali Tait
12-02-2010, 11:22
Steve's stuff is great,those speakers of his get better every time I hear them!
Giant Haystacks
12-02-2010, 14:43
i would love to try out px4 i have tryed and heard many of the triodes but £80 for a maybe and £130+for a good one is still a fair investment.
i use 6a3 5 watt amp and i love it and if cash was a little tight i could replace all 8 valves new old stock £20 pounds,and a capacitor went high in value and i i got all new phillips £12
these amps are easy to mark of your list ,
i think what dave cawley said sums it all up
Hi Neil,
Hi Steve
Love the pictures of your latest projects over in the DIY Gallery thread.
Unless I've missed something, Steve's not posted any pictures of his latest projects in the DIY Gallery thread...
Are you sure that you're not getting mixed up with Steve the Shadow? :)
In saying that, however, Steve Shiels (SPS') stuff is also excellent, as are his speakers, as indeed Ali has pointed out :cool:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
12-02-2010, 15:31
Hi Neil,
Unless I've missed something, Steve's not posted any pictures of his latest projects in the DIY Gallery thread...
Are you sure that you're not getting mixed up with Steve the Shadow? :)
In saying that, however, Steve Shiels (SPS') stuff is also excellent, as are his speakers, as indeed Ali has pointed out :cool:
Marco.
:doh:Yes, mixed up oops. I'll crawl back into my cave now :lol:
Regards D S D L
just catching up...
steve the shadow's kit is very good... funnily enough he was round at mine last night with his latest px25 amp, now driven by 1930's mazda british triodes ..much as i favour...
it sounded very very good...
my kit had some nice comments about it at last years wigwam bake off at scalford .. which i will be attending this year, although with some very different speakers to the open baffles i had last year... for me speakers are the most important part of my system.. most speakers seem to have a lack of life or realness about them if you know what i mean
using drivers with fast exceleration seems to make the sound more lifelike.. these are generally expensive and more peaky so are more difficult to put together..
i feel i'm on the right track at this point...hopefully any one at the wig wam show will have a chance to hear them and can agree or disagree to their heart's content...i'm happy for the moment
there's to many steve's...
cheers
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