View Full Version : Elliptical Speakers. Why Are They No Longer Used in Hi-Fi?
walpurgis
28-09-2017, 10:15
(restarting this thread as it was accidentally deleted, previous contributors please feel free to repost)
Generally, manufacturers don't use elliptical drive units in Hi-Fi speakers. They were very popular years ago. Ellipticals have much going for them, less obvious cone colouration, broader operating bandwidth, and the narrower chassis for a given cone area allows slimmer cabinets to be designed. It's all good news.
Perhaps they fell out of favour for being regarded as 'old hat' or 'radiogram speakers' years ago.
Mordaunt Short were that last maker to employ them in quantity that I can recall.
No doubt there may be an obscure design or two out there using ellipticals, but I can't think of any.
The Black Adder
28-09-2017, 11:17
I was going to say before. Aren't some car speaker still oval shaped?
I had some, I think Shnieder? speakers once which sounded good, they were oval.
hifi_dave
28-09-2017, 11:34
Maybe they are more difficult to make but having said that, they were the go to choice for radios and radiograms etc, so they needn't be expensive.
They could be used to good effect in the modern slim line speakers as they could provide a larger cone size than a circular unit but not require a wider cabinet.
Arkless Electronics
28-09-2017, 11:51
More distortion and cone break up, less pistonic in action, more coloured... Mainly used to save space in lo fi gear.
Bizarrely, they were used in several hi fi speakers for tax reasons! You paid less tax in the days of "purchase tax" as round units were in a higher tax bracket than elliptical...
The B&W DM3 speaker used an elliptical driver. As did some some Heco speakers.
You could argue the KEF B139 'racetrack' drive unit is a development of the elliptical design.
Beobloke
28-09-2017, 11:57
As someone who designed several OEM car 6x9 subwoofers when at Goodmans, I can assure you they bring an interesting set of design challenges compared to round speakers! That said, I must admit I'm surprised there hasn't been more of an effort to come up with something like a modern KEF B139, which would bring the advantages of a decent cone area, but still in a width that would fit a modern, slim cabinet.
As an aside, one of my good friends and former colleagues worked at Goodmans for several years before I did, including the time when Mordaunt Short were in the same building and developing the 800 series mentioned above (which had the elliptical drivers).
They had 'one or two issues' with the drivers' design and my friend was loaned to them for several months to sort it all out, which he successfully did, and rumour has it the 800s are rather good. However, to this day, he still develops an inadvertent twitch if I mention them in his presence!
More distortion and cone break up, less pistonic in action, more coloured... Mainly used to save space in lo fi gear.
Bizarrely, they were used in several hi fi speakers for tax reasons! You paid less tax in the days of "purchase tax" as round units were in a higher tax bracket than elliptical...
Speakers using more than one drive unit were regarded as 'professional' and were, I believe, not subject to purchase tax.
Arkless Electronics
28-09-2017, 12:15
Speakers using more than one drive unit were regarded as 'professional' and were, I believe, not subject to purchase tax.
Indeed but there was also a driver size limit with too small = domestic. They could quote the longer dimension of the elliptical cone and get round it that way!
This is according to the book "Leak: Firsts in high fidelity" re the Leak Mini-Sandwich.
mightymonoped
28-09-2017, 12:47
Still sounding good now in my MS 400 [emoji4] https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170928/ac34f6e21bb9484a776a3fe2985ecda6.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
willbewill
28-09-2017, 13:20
Speakers using more than one drive unit were regarded as 'professional' and were, I believe, not subject to purchase tax.
It was those with over 2 drivers - hence the BC1 had a super tweeter 'to avoid purchase tax'.
Arkless Electronics
28-09-2017, 13:54
It may well be that 3 unit speakers were automatically "professional" for tax purposes but it also depended on woofer size. A 2 unit speaker with at least one dimension of 12" in the drive unit was it seems tax exempt and it is said this is the reasoning behind the KEF B139.
walpurgis
28-09-2017, 14:05
It may well be that 3 unit speakers were automatically "professional" for tax purposes but it also depended on woofer size. A 2 unit speaker with at least one dimension of 12" in the drive unit was it seems tax exempt and it is said this is the reasoning behind the KEF B139.
Not sure about that Jez. The B139 was a reduced size version of an older and much larger bass driver. Think it was the B1814 or something like that, it was damn big anyway.
http://i63.tinypic.com/ifqqlt.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/nnr1fr.jpg
Arkless Electronics
28-09-2017, 15:17
Not sure about that Jez. The B139 was a reduced size version of an older and much larger bass driver. Think it was the B1814 or something like that, it was damn big anyway.
http://i63.tinypic.com/ifqqlt.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/nnr1fr.jpg
Oh I'm well aware of the earlier incarnation of it yes. There was even a 2 way bookshelf with just a B139 and T27!
As far as purchase tax anomalies go well I don't know the full SP and it seems lost in the mists of time but there are many references I've seen over the years, some no doubt apocryphal, of "more than 2 drivers" being a criteria but even more mentioning size of bass unit and that it didn't specify that it had to be 12" or more in all directions.... so an elliptical driver was a tax loophole so long as 12" in biggest dimension. Think also of all those EMI 13" x 9" drivers with two tweeters on a metal strip across the front of them...
I even recall talk of some early ABR speakers being for tax purposes as the third driver didn't need a magnet or voice coil to qualify...
walpurgis
28-09-2017, 15:26
Think also of all those EMI 13" x 9" drivers with two tweeters on a metal strip across the front of them
Sold by the thousands from Lasky's and W.H.Smith in Edgware Road. They were called the 'Set 450' with the nasty little plastic coned tweeters and the 'Set 350' with a single paper coned tweeter.
Not a patch on the various versions of the excellent 14A/770 alloy framed 13" x 9" jobs, as used by Celef, B&W, Mordaunt Short, Proac and Monitor Audio, amongst many others (although some of the 12" x 9" steel framed units shared the same cone and larger magnet).
http://i68.tinypic.com/fefcxl.jpg
My Mordaunt Short MS 815's. I only use them to add a bit of oomph to the telly and I'm not in to the whole AV thing. They sounded OK until I heard the big Goodmans.
Minstrel SE
28-09-2017, 17:27
Well I grew up with a Dynatron radiogram and it subconsciously put me off elliptical looking drivers for ever.
Usually saw them in low fi gear that was knocking about as a kid.
They cant be that good if nobody uses them nowhttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6EzvmhURfxg/TAUzbjDVUuI/AAAAAAAAAo0/8Th5RWcxu1o/s1600/DSC01379.JPG
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wW_fiFg3rtg/T569w8hV7eI/AAAAAAAAB1s/dch-ZsJ_eXM/s1600/DSC00557.JPG
They were in this Van Der Molen garbage that I had when I was about 10. Im maybe being unfair as I enjoyed it as a kid until the built in amp starts crackling at the controls and failed...You could rock that BSR tonearm backwards and forwards on its rickety mounting and there was one elliptical speaker per cabinet :)
Picture below BSR version.... My pride and joy :D
https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/OTAwWDE2MDA=/z/XEcAAOSwX9FZGhxh/$/Van-Der-Molen-Vintage-Record-Player-Made-in-_1.jpg
I seem to remember very well reviewed Monitor Audio MA3 used an elliptical driver.
Well I grew up with a Dynatron radiogram and it subconsciously put me off elliptical looking drivers for ever.
Usually saw them in low fi gear that was knocking about as a kid.
They cant be that good if nobody uses them now
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wW_fiFg3rtg/T569w8hV7eI/AAAAAAAAB1s/dch-ZsJ_eXM/s1600/DSC00557.JPG
They were in this Van Der Molen garbage that I had when I was about 10. Im maybe being unfair as I enjoyed it as a kid until the built in amp starts crackling at the controls and failed...You could rock that BSR tonearm backwards and forwards on its rickety mounting and there was one elliptical speaker per cabinet :)
I'm tripping out just looking at that wallpaper. And the Formica!
Those were the days.
That weren't no BSR deck. It was a late Garrard with a version of the ghastly cheapo 'Unimech' chassis which was based on their micro-changer CC10. Van Der Molen made some pleasant stereo record players, but the more expensive Hacker models were very much better and even had half decent speakers to boot (I think they were M-S sourced, but it would need Andr'e to confirm probably).
........Aren't some car speaker still oval shaped?.....
''6 x 9'' 's were all the rage a few years ago when after-market Car Hi-Fi was much bigger than it is today, you're right.
Jim.
walpurgis
29-09-2017, 08:12
''6 x 9'' 's were all the rage a few years ago when after-market Car Hi-Fi was much bigger than it is today, you're right.
Jim.
Yes. Some 'In Car Entertainment' speakers are elliptical, but this thread relates to Hi-Fi and I don't regard ICE as Hi-Fi. :)
spendorman
29-09-2017, 12:00
Sold by the thousands from Lasky's and W.H.Smith in Edgware Road. They were called the 'Set 450' with the nasty little plastic coned tweeters and the 'Set 350' with a single paper coned tweeter.
Not a patch on the various versions of the excellent 14A/770 alloy framed 13" x 9" jobs, as used by Celef, B&W, Mordaunt Short, Proac and Monitor Audio, amongst many others (although some of the 12" x 9" steel framed units shared the same cone and larger magnet).
Don't think that B&W used the 14A770 in any of their speakers, the 92390DJ 13x8 was used in the DM3, and I think, but not sure in the earlier P1 and P2.
The 13x8 designated 92390 GF had versions that were triple laminated paper / aluminium, and double laminated paper / aluminium.
I have speakers that contain 14A770 and the 92390, both good units to my mind.
EMI made so many variations on each unit. For example there were 13x8's with just a thinnish paper cone, paper cone with aluminium centre, double laminated paper with aluminium centre, triple laminated paper with aluminium centre, and fibre glass/ paper with an aluminium centre.
Minstrel SE
29-09-2017, 15:43
That weren't no BSR deck. It was a late Garrard with a version of the ghastly cheapo 'Unimech' chassis which was based on their micro-changer CC10. Van Der Molen made some pleasant stereo record players, but the more expensive Hacker models were very much better and even had half decent speakers to boot (I think they were M-S sourced, but it would need Andr'e to confirm probably).
Ive added a third picture as my one was a BSR. Its got crafted in ....by BSR. I Probably pictured the wrong one if they used different units. I thought something was odd when posting as the other version ( el cheapo Garrard you say) has a larger silver middle and no controls front left. I just remember it being jerky and rickety but what does a kid want when the muppet album needs playing :)
And for Macca they were library pictures but we had blue formica and real 70s wallpaper in my bedroom with brown and orange rounded oblongs...lovely.:)
Yeah it was a basic record player and I like pictures which remind me of the past.
All the best Martin
.... but this thread relates to Hi-Fi and I don't regard ICE as Hi-Fi. :)
Nakamichi DAC-101 In'Car DAC. 2x TDA1541A Single Crown...........Not Hi-Fi ? You've gotta be joking !21486
walpurgis
29-09-2017, 21:15
Nakamichi DAC-101 In'Car DAC. 2x TDA1541A Single Crown...........Not Hi-Fi ? You've gotta be joking !21486
No. It may be expensive and fancy, but it's not Hi-Fi.
No. It may be expensive and fancy, but it's not Hi-Fi.
I beg to differ !! ;-)
walpurgis
29-09-2017, 22:42
It's simple really James. Regardless of high spec, no audio component in tended for in car use, can deliver true Hi-Fi in a vehicle. 'Cos the environment of a vehicle will not permit a Hi-Fi sound. You can have loud, impressive, powerful and 'nice sounding', but not Hi-Fi.
The disposition of speaker drive units precludes anything like correct imaging. And, there are hard reflective surfaces all round that produce unfortunate reflection effects. The dimensions of the cabin rule out proper reproduction of bass fundamentals, regardless of perceived bass depth. Also, vehicles are in noisy environments and also generate enough of their own noise for decent SN ratios to be impossible. Hence, although you may like the sound, it can't be Hi-Fi.
.......no audio component in tended for in car use, can deliver true Hi-Fi in a vehicle....
Ah! I think here is where my confusion lay, the last three words of your sentence... ''....in a vehicle....''. I agree, listening in a car is just nice music but not Hi-Fi. But the components can be, if used domestically. My Nakamichi has never been anywhere near a car. It was used as my main DAC, in my home, for 10 years + and is most definitely Hi-Fi. Although I have now come to like NOS DACs and so use it less.
Anyway, we've strayed off topic a little. So back to Elliptical Speakers, if used in a domestic situation I'm sure some in-car types could be made to sound Hi-Fi but as most are 4 OHMS, consideration of crossover components would be needed.
Jim.
walpurgis
30-09-2017, 09:04
So back to Elliptical Speakers, if used in a domestic situation I'm sure some in-car types could be made to sound Hi-Fi but as most are 4 OHMS, consideration of crossover components would be needed.
Jim.
I've suggested this in the past. Some car speakers are pretty good designs and would undoubtedly work in a Hi-Fi system. Even the 4 ohm load is not a problem for most amps. A pair of larger full range ellipticals in compact transmission line cabinets could be fun.
........... A pair of larger full range ellipticals in compact transmission line cabinets could be fun.
There you go, set yourself a challenge !!
Jim.
walpurgis
30-09-2017, 18:22
There you go, set yourself a challenge !!
Jim.
I've already built myself more than enough TL speakers (mind you, I have a 10" pair of Tannoy units looking for a home :hmm:)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.