View Full Version : Passive preamp buzzing?
Bigman80
23-09-2017, 16:25
Hi all,
A Goldpoint passive pre, once the Pre owned and sold by Marco, has made it to my abode for a bit of a sample.
I have plugged it in as I do my own Passive and it's buzzing like a hive. My cables are fine, the cable dressing makes no difference and "nothing I do don't seem to work" as the mighty jagger once said.
Any ideas?
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jandl100
23-09-2017, 18:00
It's probably a grounding issue with the cabling.
Swap 'em out one by one.
walpurgis
23-09-2017, 18:06
Or the turntable chassis needs earthing?
Bigman80
23-09-2017, 18:17
Had no issue previous until I plugged this Goldpoint in. I'll have a look. Cheers guys.
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jandl100
23-09-2017, 18:18
If any of the cabling is unscreened that may be an issue.
Bigman80
23-09-2017, 19:13
Oh, ok. That could be a thing.
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Hi Oliver,
Interesting... Who sold it to you? :)
It certainly didn't buzz when I had it. It was as silent as a graveyard. As others have said, I suspect it must be an earthing issue. Try wiggling or twisting the plugs on the contacts (with everything powered up) and see if you can stop the buzzing.
One thing you have to be careful of with the WBT sockets I fitted (as they have minimal metal on the contacts, which is how they're designed), is that the plugs on the interconnects you're using fit snugly and are making a proper connection. If not, you may cure the problem by simply changing cables for ones with plugs that 'mate' better with the WBTs.
Be interesting to find out what you think of it once you've had a proper listen :cool:
Marco.
Bigman80
23-09-2017, 19:51
Hi Oliver,
Interesting... Who sold it to you? :)
It certainly didn't buzz when I had it. It was as silent as a graveyard. As others have said, I suspect it must be an earthing issue. Try wiggling or twisting the plugs on the contacts (with everything powered up) and see if you can stop the buzzing.
One thing you have to be careful of with the WBT sockets I fitted (as they have minimal metal on the contacts, which is how they're designed), is that the plugs on the interconnects you're using fit snugly and are making a proper connection. If not, you may cure the problem by simply changing cables for ones with plugs that 'mate' better with the WBTs.
Be interesting to find out what you think of it once you've had a proper listen :cool:
Marco.Hi Marco,
I didn't buy it �� it's on loan from Shaman. He's a top banana. Initial impressions are good although it's quite "coarse" sounding compared to my bog standard unit. This is probably due to the level of transparency. Vocals and top end are outrageously good. It was like I'd put a different cartridge on the TT. I suspect it's more a case of letting all the gear warm up and getting used to it a bit. Channels separation is phenomenal and the soundstage is obviously wider and deeper. Vocals a touch more forward I think my preamp is a touch more fluid but silver v copper ime can show that to be the case. All in all. It's surprising how much difference it makes.
O
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pgarrish
23-09-2017, 20:46
With passives its almost always earthing. Defo check you're getting good connections with your cables. Also, if it's been moved around a lot and/or plugged/unplugged, might be worth checking inside that nothing has come loose. If you have a multi meter, check all the grounds are connected and that none of the signal lines are earthed (unless the volume is on zero)
RothwellAudio
23-09-2017, 20:50
If you turn the volume down to zero and the buzzing is still there it must be due to a fault in a cable or in the Goldpoint. At zero volume the output should be shorted to ground and therefore silent. If not, a definite fault.
Bigman80
23-09-2017, 21:05
Great tips guys. I'll give it a go and report back.
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Hi Marco,
I didn't buy it �� it's on loan from Shaman. He's a top banana. Initial impressions are good although it's quite "coarse" sounding compared to my bog standard unit. This is probably due to the level of transparency. Vocals and top end are outrageously good. It was like I'd put a different cartridge on the TT. I suspect it's more a case of letting all the gear warm up and getting used to it a bit. Channels separation is phenomenal and the soundstage is obviously wider and deeper. Vocals a touch more forward I think my preamp is a touch more fluid but silver v copper ime can show that to be the case. All in all. It's surprising how much difference it makes.
No worries, mate. Interesting comments, many of which I agree with, especially about the vocals, top end and resolution, as that's how it was voiced (Z-foil resistors being particularly influential there). However it shouldn't sound course, just be ruthlessly revealing!
I liked it a lot, but ultimately it was always going to play second fiddle to the Croft, at over four times the cost, which was just that bit more capable. Do try it with different cables (or rather with plugs that make a better connection with the WBT sockets), and twist them left and right, when they're plugged into the sockets, as I'm almost certain that will cure the buzzing.
Marco.
Bigman80
23-09-2017, 21:51
Yes, maybe it's my ears not being used to it. The resolution is almost overwhelming at the minute. But yes, it's very good. I'm not sure why resistors are used though?
Not questioning just lacking knowledge.
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Bigman80
23-09-2017, 22:02
If you turn the volume down to zero and the buzzing is still there it must be due to a fault in a cable or in the Goldpoint. At zero volume the output should be shorted to ground and therefore silent. If not, a definite fault.Still buzzing when volume is on Zero. Not tried different cables yet though.
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Bigman80
23-09-2017, 22:27
Ok,. Cables swapped and buzzing gone.
Sat down for a listen and I realised the harshness was actually distortion. In go the headphone and yep, distortion. I have swapped the output from high out to low out on the Jolida and the distortion has gone. Now it's distortion free but really quiet. Hmmm.
Gain is adjustable on the Jolida but lowering it is for MM carts which the ZYX definitely isn't. Hmmm
What I've just heard has convinced me to get a better pre though.
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walpurgis
23-09-2017, 22:38
Sounds like you've gone from input overload to input underload. The ZYX should drive well enough, so maybe the Jolida is not a match to the passive.
If you like the sound of a passive, I'd suggest getting your mitts on a TVC to try Oliver. To me, the difference is 'night and day'.
Bigman80
23-09-2017, 22:51
Sounds like you've gone from input overload to input underload. The ZYX should drive well enough, so maybe the Jolida is not a match to the passive.
If you like the sound of a passive, I'd suggest getting your mitts on a TVC to try Oliver. To me, the difference is 'night and day'.Well I've gone to high gain and used the low output RCAs and it's distortion free. Odd. Treble which was previously coarse is now much more palatable so previous statement withdrawn. Seem to have have lost a bit of soundstage too. Maybe a compatibility issue seeing as the Jolida has ridiculously high gain anyway or could be the earphones. I don't usually listen too carefully through the cans.
Having a brief listen and i think the biggest difference is the dual mono setup. Far superior to the stereo job in my pre. I'd definitely love to try a TVC Geoff. Just need someone to borrow me one lol.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170923/716fff13bff9e2081ecb09cfb789dce3.jpg
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Glad you seem to have got things sorted, Oliver. Thought it might be the cables (or rather the plugs not making proper contact with the sockets), as I occasionally encountered the same issue :)
It's an unfortunate by-product of using minimal amount of metal in the signal path, which in my experience has significant sonic benefits. It's a WBT Nextgen thing:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/ChQFIz.jpg
You can see there just how easy it might be for some plugs not to 'mate' securely with the metal contact points, being as there is so little of them!
However, given the volume setting on the Goldpoint (as pictured), the gain structure in your system must be rather different from that in mine, as on the setting shown, the sound would've been loud enough to have blown the roof off!! :eek:;)
Most of my listening, with the Goldpoint (and it was pretty loud there), was at 10pm on both dials. You're right, however, that the channel separation (and stereo imaging) is significantly better when you have dual-mono volume controls.
Hope you enjoy the Goldpoint and manage to get the most from it. If you can, you'll be in for a treat!
Marco.
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 06:49
Glad you seem to have got things sorted, Oliver. Thought it might be the cables (or rather the plugs not making proper contact with the sockets), as occasionally I encountered the same issue :)
It's an unfortunate by-product of using the minimal amount of metal in the signal path, which in my experience has significant sonic benefits. It's a WBT Nextgen thing:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/ChQFIz.jpg
You can see there just how easy it might be for some plugs not to 'mate' securely with the metal contact points, being as there is so little of them!
However, given the volume setting on the Goldpoint (as pictured), the gain structure in your system must be rather different from that in mine, as on the setting shown, the sound would've been loud enough to have blown the roof off!! :eek:;)
Most of my listening, with the Goldpoint (and it was pretty loud there), was at 10pm on both dials. You're right, however, that the channel separation (and stereo imaging) is significantly better when you have dual-mono volume controls.
Hope you enjoy the Goldpoint and manage to get the most from it. If you can, you'll be in for a treat!
Marco.Hi Marco,
Yes there is definitely a bit of fine tuning needed. The volume is not quite right via the Creek HA so I'll do some more tinkering tomorrow. 12 hour shift today.
I like the WBT sockets but they aren't a good match for the MS Audio plugs. No issues when the cables swapped. Good ol' neutrik lol
I'll report back when I've given it a thorough run.
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No problem. It's not a disaster if that's where you end up using the dials, but the Goldpoint's been designed to sound best, used with them turned down more (to achieve the same loudness level), as at that point there are less shunt resistors in the signal path.
You have both shunt and series resistors in the Goldpoint. The Z-Foils I mentioned earlier are the series resistors, and there are only two (one for each channel, left and right).
Essentially, the more you turn up the volume (increase each 'step' on the dual-mono attenuators), the more shunt resistors are 'in circuit', so the potential for sonic degradation increases with every 'click'. It's just the way it's been designed.
You can see all the (surface mounted) shunt resistors employed, with each attenuator 'step' (the little square numbered things), on this link: http://www.goldpt.com/big.html
So you want to minimise the amount of steps you need to use, in order to achieve the desired volume.
The only way you'll be able to do that yourself, is to alter the current 'gain structure' in your system, either by using a source component with a higher output voltage (check the specs), or a more sensitive power amp (or a combo of both), and then you won't need to turn the Goldpoint up as much.
You could also alter the value of the series resistors, to achieve a similar effect, but that's a more technical thing and involves some soldering. Hope that all makes sense! :)
This is also a useful link, explaining the differences (pros and cons) between series, ladder and shunt-type stepped attenuators, used in passive preamps: http://www.goldpt.com/attenuator_types.html The Goldpoint you're using is a series-type.
Marco.
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 08:27
No problem. It's not a disaster if that's where you end up using the dials, but the Goldpoint's been designed to sound best, used with them turned down more (to achieve the same loudness level), as at that point there are less shunt resistors in the signal path.
You have both shunt and series resistors in the Goldpoint. The Z-Foils I mentioned earlier are the series resistors, and there are only two (one for each channel, left and right).
Essentially, the more you turn up the volume (increase each 'step' on the dual-mono attenuators), the more shunt resistors are 'in circuit', so the potential for sonic degradation increases with every 'click'. It's just the way it's been designed.
You can see all the (surface mounted) shunt resistors employed, with each attenuator 'step' (the little square numbered things), on this link: http://www.goldpt.com/big.html
So you want to minimise the amount of steps you need to use, in order to achieve the desired volume.
The only way you'll be able to do that yourself, is to alter the current 'gain structure' in your system, either by using a source component with a higher output voltage, or a more sensitive power amp (or a combo of both), and then you won't need to turn the Goldpoint up as much.
You could also alter the value of the series resistors, to achieve a similar effect, but that's a more technical thing and involves some soldering. Hope that all makes sense! :)
This is also a useful link, explaining the differences (pros and cons) between series, ladder and shunt-type stepped attenuators, used in passive preamps: http://www.goldpt.com/attenuator_types.html The Goldpoint you're using is a series-type.
Marco.Cheers Marco!
It's never as easy as just plug and play lol. I'll give that a read and up my knowledge intake a bit haha.
I'll get some time with it tomorrow and Tuesday so hopefully I can get the dials down to a lower level. It's probably user error so I'll get the Jolida manual out and check everything is right.
O
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farflungstar
24-09-2017, 08:31
The jolidas can be temperamental.
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 08:46
The jolidas can be temperamental.Could you elaborate? Not had an issue since plumbing it in other than with the Goldpoint which was a plug not making good enough contact. Not surprising considering they're both mainly plastic. WBT & MS Audio.
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farflungstar
24-09-2017, 08:50
The jolidas tend to have very high gain and can be tricky to integrate with certain carts, passives etc. I tried it with one a long long time ago but just couldn't make it work well. You have a different system so might have a totally different experience.
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 09:03
The jolidas tend to have very high gain and can be tricky to integrate with certain carts, passives etc. I tried it with one a long long time ago but just couldn't make it work well. You have a different system so might have a totally different experience.Ah, No. I completely see what you're saying. It does have high gain figures which weren't an issue until I put a "better" preamp in. It is indeed now a bit of a challenge to integrate it smoothly. A good point well made.
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Open Door
24-09-2017, 12:18
The jolidas tend to have very high gain and can be tricky to integrate with certain carts, passives etc. I tried it with one a long long time ago but just couldn't make it work well. You have a different system so might have a totally different experience.
Just for info, the low and high outputs on the back of the Jolida are not for cartridge matching. It is a feature more for the American markets where some home theatre preamps have massive gain. The low outputs have a resistor in the lineout to lower the gain so best to use the high outputs every time.
If gain is an issue then that can be resolved by dropping in 5751 tubes as a straight swap - lower gain and lower noise so an upgrade at the same time.
Another top option is 5755's with adaptors which are stellar tubes and lower gain.
Open Door
24-09-2017, 12:20
If you can get NOS black plate triple meca 5751's - you'll be smiling ��
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 12:33
If you can get NOS black plate triple meca 5751's - you'll be smiling ��Ah, I knew I heard a difference. Yes, after some digging I've seen people remove the low output. I'll see if I can source some valves. I would be incredibly reluctant to let the Jolida go. I really like it. Also, I could just put the other preamp in lol
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Yes, but isn't Oliver's issue, in terms of getting the best out of the Goldpoint passive he's borrowed, one of LOW gain, not high gain, which is why he's got the dials turned up to 2 o'clock, in order to achieve the required volume?
Therefore, he needs to INCREASE the current gain structure of his system, in order to be able to TURN DOWN the Goldpoint and achieve the same required listening level.
Marco.
Firebottle
24-09-2017, 13:12
If gain is an issue then that can be resolved by dropping in 5751 tubes as a straight swap -
This is just plain wrong. The valve stage is an SRPP stage with resistive feedback that sets the level of gain. You may get a very marginal change to the stage gain between differing valves but it is always going to be about x5.
@ Oliver, the gain that can be achieved from MC input to high level output is 50 dB with no gain switch on, 56,71 or 80 dB for the individual switches selected in turn, or a maximum of 82.6 dB with all switches on.
How sensitive are Oliver's power amps, Alan?
My Copper amp is extremely sensitive, so works very well with passives and low-gain active preamps. Perhaps if your monos aren't as sensitive, that's why Oliver's having to turn up the Goldpoint so much to achieve the volume he desires? :)
If I remember correctly, the KIN was really high-gain, so maybe that's the type of source input level the monos like to 'see'?
Marco.
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 14:38
Here are the diagrams in the manual:
21459
21460
21461
Currently using the low out but as i have read elsewhere, should be using the High Outs.
Gain is currently on the "Low MC" + Low Output RCA's setting which has resulted in the need to turn the dials right up. There is distortion (too much signal) when "MC Low" is selected and using the "High out"
Open Door
24-09-2017, 14:51
Input as MC high and using the high output gives what result?
Here are the diagrams in the manual:
21459
21460
21461
Currently using the low out but as i have read elsewhere, should be using the High Outs.
Gain is currently on the "Low MC" + Low Output RCA's setting which has resulted in the need to turn the dials right up. There is distortion (too much signal) when "MC Low" is selected and using the "High out"
Ok, then it's as I thought. Unfortunately, the present gain structure in your system is incompatible with using the Goldpoint, optimally. The only proper way around this would be to change the value of the series resistors, from 10K (which I know is what they are), to something like 30K or higher.
Then you'll be able to use the 'High Outs', and hear both the Goldpoint and your power amps properly.
Marco.
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 15:20
Ok, then it's as I thought. Unfortunately, the present gain structure in your system is incompatible with using the Goldpoint, optimally. The only proper way around this would be to change the value of the series resistors, from 10K (which I know is what they are), to something like 30K or higher.
Then you'll be able to use the 'High Outs', and hear both the Goldpoint and your power amps properly.
Marco.Ah, that's a shame. I think the Volume pot on the Headphone amp may have played a part too but I've just spoken to Alan and he said the same as you. Damn. Inspired me to get a Dual mono preamp though or modify mine for now.
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Open Door
24-09-2017, 15:22
Ah, that's a shame. I think the Volume pot on the Headphone amp may have played a part too but I've just spoken to Alan and he said the same as you. Damn. Inspired me to get a Dual mono preamp though or modify mine for now.
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Input as MC high and using the high output gives what result?
Ah, that's a shame. I think the Volume pot on the Headphone amp may have played a part too but I've just spoken to Alan and he said the same as you. Damn. Inspired me to get a Dual mono preamp though or modify mine for now.
It's nothing that can't be easily fixed though, if you think you like the sound of the Goldpoint! :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
24-09-2017, 15:29
For the record, there is no such thing as gain structure as in something to be optimised.... other than technically. Don't bother Marco, I know you erroneously believe otherwise.....:D
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 15:53
The same BUT i only did this through the headphone amp which i believe may have been part of the issue. I'll try with the Monos and report back.
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 15:55
It's nothing that can't be easily fixed though, if you think you like the sound of the Goldpoint! :)
Marco.
Im going to take the idea of mono volume pots and get some stepped Attenuator from VALAB (i like them and they are cheap!) and replace the silver plated copper with pure silver and match the gain structure correctly. ****calm down Jez, I'm a believer!!!!****
an after thought......How would a TVC fare? More matching misery?
walpurgis
24-09-2017, 16:05
an after thought......How would a TVC fare? More matching misery?
You'll never know until you try one. I have two different ones in front of me right now. They sound vastly better than any regular passive I've used, whether pot or stepped attenuator type.
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 16:09
You'll never know until you try one. I have two different ones in front of me right now. They sound vastly better than any regular passive I've used, whether pot or stepped attenuator type.
Ok, do you feel like lending one to me? Can't invest currently due to other commitments so a loan is my only option!
walpurgis
24-09-2017, 16:12
Ok, do you feel like lending one to me? Can't invest currently due to other commitments so a loan is my only option!
One is not mine and the other is my main pre-amp. I need it here. :)
For the record, there is no such thing as gain structure as in something to be optimised.... other than technically. Don't bother Marco, I know you erroneously believe otherwise.....:D
And you erroneously believe that I erroneously believe otherwise! :ner:
If a system's overall 'gain structure' can't be sub-optimal, then why is Oliver experiencing, to use his terminology, "matching misery" with a passive preamp - or perhaps he's just imagining it all? ;)
Marco.
Im going to take the idea of mono volume pots and get some stepped Attenuator from VALAB (i like them and they are cheap!) and replace the silver plated copper with pure silver and match the gain structure correctly. ****calm down Jez, I'm a believer!!!!****
Cool. Let us know how you get on :)
Marco.
walpurgis
24-09-2017, 16:17
Cheapish TVC: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stevens-and-Billington-TX-102-passive-volume-control-UK-SALE-ONLY-/272851998760?hash=item3f873f1828:g:yocAAOSwYL9Zv4v 0
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 16:22
Cheapish TVC: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stevens-and-Billington-TX-102-passive-volume-control-UK-SALE-ONLY-/272851998760?hash=item3f873f1828:g:yocAAOSwYL9Zv4v 0
Not cheapish enough mate, Not to worry. I will persevere and report back.
Arkless Electronics
24-09-2017, 16:44
And you erroneously believe that I erroneously believe otherwise! :ner:
If a system's overall 'gain structure' can't be sub-optimal, then why is Oliver experiencing, to use his terminology, "matching misery" with a passive preamp - or perhaps he's just imagining it all? ;)
Marco.
Quite likely..... IMHO maybe 20% or more of everything people report abut the sound of their system is simply imagined! I obviously include myself in this...
People keep reporting differences which simply cannot exist and human imagination (as a catch all for expectation bias, placebo effect, mood swings etc) must be behind this.
I started a thread once about the way, now and then, my system will sound truly dreadful to my ears even though nothing whatsoever has changed, been adjusted etc since the previous day... I'm even playing the same record that has remained on the platter since the last listening session when it all sounded wonderful! All down to mood changes or to how receptive to the illusion of reality in sound my ear/brain combination is on that day I guess. The problem comes when non technical people ascribe any such "differences" to things which aren't even possible...
Arkless Electronics
24-09-2017, 16:49
oh and mono vol pots is another thing that can't make a difference... A stereo vol pot is just two mono ones on the same shaft! If not shielded and impedances are high then it could have a tiny (and I mean tiny!) difference in crosstalk but it would still be 10x better than the source in this respect!
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 16:54
oh and mono vol pots is another thing that can't make a difference... A stereo vol pot is just two mono ones on the same shaft! If not shielded and impedances are high then it could have a tiny (and I mean tiny!) difference in crosstalk but it would still be 10x better than the source in this respect!
Quite likely..... IMHO maybe 20% or more of everything people report abut the sound of their system is simply imagined! I obviously include myself in this...
People keep reporting differences which simply cannot exist and human imagination (as a catch all for expectation bias, placebo effect, mood swings etc) must be behind this.
I started a thread once about the way, now and then, my system will sound truly dreadful to my ears even though nothing whatsoever has changed, been adjusted etc since the previous day... I'm even playing the same record that has remained on the platter since the last listening session when it all sounded wonderful! All down to mood changes or to how receptive to the illusion of reality in sound my ear/brain combination is on that day I guess. The problem comes when non technical people ascribe any such "differences" to things which aren't even possible...
Jez, there is no possible way even you couldn't hear what i am talking about. I know your a believer in science but there is just no way i am imagining it.
Indeed, so best just ignore posts #48 and 49... I know I will ;)
My hi-fi mantra: trust your own ears, no matter what some 'experts' say!
Marco.
Bigman80
24-09-2017, 17:50
Ha. He's a good egg is Jez. Just no way on earth you couldn't hear what I am hearing.
Trust the ears. I agree wholeheartedly.
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Ha. He's a good egg is Jez. Just no way on earth you couldn't hear what I am hearing.
Indeed, nor me not hear what I've heard many, many times during my experiments with passives :)
Marco.
Bigman80
25-09-2017, 11:49
Ok, so I am convinced the Jolida and Goldpoint aren't seeing eye to eye as imo the "highs" are somewhat tizzy and there seems to be a little bottom end missing so I plugged my craptop (laptop) in and played a ripped lossless file directly into the preamp and Monos. Voilą!! I am right and so is Marco and Alan lol. I am pretty convinced that if they were entirely "matched" the Goldpoint would be the most transparent pre I've heard. In digital playback it's quite brilliant very neutral and open. I now want to try a TVC to see what that can do but I'm really impressed with the GP
Shaman, ignore my message lol
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farflungstar
25-09-2017, 11:54
Try and hear a good TVC (they are not all equal) and then try to hear a Truth. I think you'll be surprised.
Bigman80
25-09-2017, 11:59
I'll do my best. Thanks for the tip off
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Bigman80
25-09-2017, 12:04
Just but Klotz in in place of the silver copper hYbrid between Jolida and GP and it's made a huge difference. I know Jez is probably screaming at the monitor as we speak lol
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Just but Klotz in in place of the silver copper hYbrid between Jolida and GP and it's made a huge difference. I know Jez is probably screaming at the monitor as we speak lol
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We have to ensnare Jez in a cable comparison at some point. Might need to drug him first in order to get him there, a bit like they had to do with B.A in the A Team.
Bigman80
25-09-2017, 12:07
Hahahaha "I ain't listening to no cables!!!" [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
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Firebottle
25-09-2017, 12:09
I know Jez is probably screaming at the monitor as we speak
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:eyebrows:
Good result Oli, now you need bigger output caps in the Jolida.
Bigman80
25-09-2017, 12:10
How big Alan?
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Arkless Electronics
25-09-2017, 12:24
Just but Klotz in in place of the silver copper hYbrid between Jolida and GP and it's made a huge difference. I know Jez is probably screaming at the monitor as we speak lol
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Yep you're dead right. I'll just ignore all this nonsense.... Have you tried putting a carrot on top of each speaker? It's as likely to improve the sound as anything being discussed here and would have the same scientific merit.... Carry on. I'll try and avoid looking at this thread to avoid the wincing it gives me!
Hahahaha "I ain't listening to no cables!!!" [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
Lol... "I ain't believing nothing unless my science book tells me it's true!" :D;)
Marco.
Bigman80
25-09-2017, 12:27
Yep you're dead right. I'll just ignore all this nonsense.... Have you tried putting a carrot on top of each speaker? It's as likely to improve the sound as anything being discussed here and would have the same scientific merit.... Carry on. I'll try and avoid looking at this thread to avoid the wincing it gives me!Hahaha. I did Jez. Two on each but didn't help. Changed the sound when I plugged then in the horn lol
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Indeed, nor me not hear what I've heard many, many times during my experiments with passives :)
Marco.
...and during your experiments vs. actives, have you noticed anything of note?
RothwellAudio
25-09-2017, 13:40
... the Goldpoint's been designed to sound best, used with them turned down more (to achieve the same loudness level), as at that point there are less shunt resistors in the signal path.
You have both shunt and series resistors in the Goldpoint. The Z-Foils I mentioned earlier are the series resistors, and there are only two (one for each channel, left and right).
Essentially, the more you turn up the volume (increase each 'step' on the dual-mono attenuators), the more shunt resistors are 'in circuit', so the potential for sonic degradation increases with every 'click'. It's just the way it's been designed.
The so-called "series" resistor and "shunt" resistor in a potential divider are both doing the same job and one cannot be more more important than the other. Imagine as an example a poor quality resistor which has a lot of parasitic inductance: if you put it in the shunt position where, it is claimed, it doesn't matter it will still form a high pass filter. So it must matter! Of course it does or else why have it there at all? There's no rational explanation as to why one of the two resistors should be more important than the other - other than expectation bias based on a misunderstanding of electronics and a belief in "the signal path".
For the record, there is no such thing as gain structure as in something to be optimised.... other than technically. Don't bother Marco, I know you erroneously believe otherwise.....:D
I think you're being a bit unfair there, Jez. It's perfectly possible to have too much gain at the front end of a circuit - so it distorts - but also have some attenuation further down the line so the actual signal level doesn't appear to be overly "hot". Less gain at the front and more gain (or less attenuation) later on would cure it.
BTW, I'm not familiar with the exact circuit details of the Jolida but I have read that it does suffer from piling on the gain and then simply cutting the level with attenuation.
Bigman80
25-09-2017, 14:09
Ok, so from a working mans perspective. Trying to emulate the Goldpoint with cheaper alternatives. what's the most important part.
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Ok, so from a working mans perspective. Trying to emulate the Goldpoint with cheaper alternatives. what's the most important part.
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The potentiometer / stepped attenuator and the input selector i.e. switch contacts.
Bigman80
25-09-2017, 14:15
Thanks Neil. It's there I shall start.
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RothwellAudio
25-09-2017, 14:33
It's quite important to configure the attenuator in a way that never puts an undue load on the source or has an unduly high output impedance. However, that's quite simple - just wire the attenuator as a conventional volume control rather than trying to have "just a single resistor in the signal path". I set out my reasons for this in post #24 of this thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?31816-The-Khozmo-Mkii-Stepped-attenuator/page3
At its simplest, you could make a passive preamp with just a pot. I'd suggest a pot between 10k and 25k. 10k will have the advantage of a lower output impedance. 25k will have the advantage of a higher input impedance.
There are plenty of pots to choose from here:
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/potentiometers.html
Next level up is to use a stepped attenuator instead of a pot. There are plenty to choose from here:
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/stepped_attenuators.html
25 years ago when I started to make passive preamps there were hardly any stepped attenuators available - now there seem to be hundreds! I used to make my own with 132 steps :eyebrows: If there's so much interest in stepped attenuators, how come I never got rich? :scratch:
Arkless Electronics
25-09-2017, 14:34
The so-called "series" resistor and "shunt" resistor in a potential divider are both doing the same job and one cannot be more more important than the other. Imagine as an example a poor quality resistor which has a lot of parasitic inductance: if you put it in the shunt position where, it is claimed, it doesn't matter it will still form a high pass filter. So it must matter! Of course it does or else why have it there at all? There's no rational explanation as to why one of the two resistors should be more important than the other - other than expectation bias based on a misunderstanding of electronics and a belief in "the signal path".
I think you're being a bit unfair there, Jez. It's perfectly possible to have too much gain at the front end of a circuit - so it distorts - but also have some attenuation further down the line so the actual signal level doesn't appear to be overly "hot". Less gain at the front and more gain (or less attenuation) later on would cure it.
BTW, I'm not familiar with the exact circuit details of the Jolida but I have read that it does suffer from piling on the gain and then simply cutting the level with attenuation.
I was waiting to see if anyone who knows what they're talking about would come along and say that! Yes technically there is such a thing as gain structure and it is important. What I'm ridiculing is the concept of there being a subjectively important gain structure. So long as overload margins and noise have been taken care of by proper design it makes no difference if the vol control has to be at 5 or 8 for the same volume.
The so-called "series" resistor and "shunt" resistor in a potential divider are both doing the same job and one cannot be more more important than the other. Imagine as an example a poor quality resistor which has a lot of parasitic inductance: if you put it in the shunt position where, it is claimed, it doesn't matter it will still form a high pass filter. So it must matter! Of course it does or else why have it there at all?
Of course it matters. Who said it didn't? *Everything* matters!
Unfortunately, there was no practical way of removing and upgrading the surface-mounted shunt resistors on the existing switches (primarily because of their minuscule size, and fitting something else better, but unavoidably much larger, such as Z-Foils). Especially on a pair of attenuators with 47 different steps!
Therefore, the only way to have done that would've been to start again with two new Elma switches, and populate them with Z-Foils, and even for me, that was a bridge too far, which is why the Goldpoint was eventually sold.
There's no rational explanation as to why one of the two resistors should be more important than the other - other than expectation bias based on a misunderstanding of electronics and a belief in "the signal path".
Ha - now you're beginning to sound like Jez!
Fortunately, I don't sign up to such absolutist thinking, and simply judge what my ears tell me [which was that replacing the existing series resistors with Z-Foils massively improved the sound. Indeed, such was the level of sonic improvement, you'd have needed to have been deaf not to have heard it].
And I wasn't alone either, as three other people were present at the time when the resistors were changed, with the Goldpoint first being listened to in stock form, and then after the Z-foils had been fitted, using the same music and test system.
Expectation bias is always a possibility, but the same upgrade was carried out afterwards to two other passives, with the same result, so I'm confident that the improvements were genuine.
If I can find it, I'll dig out the thread where I reported on this, complete with pictures of each type of resistor that was tested. From memory, there were at least five of the same value from different manufacturers - and all sounded markedly different!
It's perfectly possible to have too much gain at the front end of a circuit - so it distorts - but also have some attenuation further down the line so the actual signal level doesn't appear to be overly "hot". Less gain at the front and more gain (or less attenuation) later on would cure it.
Precisely, and that's essentially what I refer to as the 'gain structure' of a system. It's entirely valid too, as are the results when alterations are made to how it operates, which Oliver and I (not to mention plenty of others) can clearly hear.
Marco.
Bigman80
25-09-2017, 14:58
It's quite important to configure the attenuator in a way that never puts an undue load on the source or has an unduly high output impedance. However, that's quite simple - just wire the attenuator as a conventional volume control rather than trying to have "just a single resistor in the signal path". I set out my reasons for this in post #24 of this thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?31816-The-Khozmo-Mkii-Stepped-attenuator/page3
At its simplest, you could make a passive preamp with just a pot. I'd suggest a pot between 10k and 25k. 10k will have the advantage of a lower output impedance. 25k will have the advantage of a higher input impedance.
There are plenty of pots to choose from here:
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/potentiometers.html
Next level up is to use a stepped attenuator instead of a pot. There are plenty to choose from here:
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/stepped_attenuators.html
25 years ago when I started to make passive preamps there were hardly any stepped attenuators available - now there seem to be hundreds! I used to make my own with 132 steps :eyebrows: If there's so much interest in stepped attenuators, how come I never got rich? :scratch:Thanks Andrew. My current pre has a 50k Alps blue. Ideally, I'd like to Taylor it to the Jolida
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RothwellAudio
25-09-2017, 15:02
[/B]
I was waiting to see if anyone who knows what they're talking about would come along and say that!
I've never claimed to know what I'm talking about :lol:
From earlier:
For the record, there is no such thing as gain structure as in something to be optimised.... other than technically.
And just now:
Yes technically there is such a thing as gain structure and it is important.
So, if I change the electrical value of the series resistors in a passive preamp, thus making a technical change, in order to optimise the gain structure [perhaps it's better referred to here as 'loudness' rather than gain?] and achieve a similar effect to what Andrew has described (subsequently hearing the obvious difference), then according to you there is no such thing as that?
The fact that I succeeded in optimising results, as described (by moving the position on the volume controls where maximum gain is achieved), disproves your statement above in bold.
It is undeniable that Oliver would've been able to use the Goldpoint with his Jolida and Firebottle monos, optimally, without hardly being able to turn up the volume on the Goldpoint before it was just too loud (as full gain was arriving too early on the attenuators), if it had been fitted with a different value of series resistors - and it would be an easy one to demonstrate.
Quite simply, going from the existing 10K, to something such as 50K, would've meant he'd have had much more usable range on those controls. Maybe, in this instance then, we should call it 'loudness structure', rather than gain?
I agree that the gain level itself, present in the circuit or system remains unchanged, but how it arrives, in terms of where on the volume controls maximum gain is achieved, does :)
Marco.
RothwellAudio
25-09-2017, 15:08
Of course it matters. Who said it didn't? *Everything* matters!
Unfortunately, there was no practical way of removing and upgrading the surface-mounted shunt resistors on the existing switches...
Sorry, my mistake - I was putting words into your mouth. I should have said that it is often assumed that one resistor is in the signal path and the other one isn't, therefore the one that isn't is of lesser importance.
BTW, I have some Elna switches with through hole PCBs (unpopulated) instead of surface mount resistors. They're available cheap if anyone wants one.
Sorry, my mistake - I was putting words into your mouth. I should have said that it is often assumed that one resistor is in the signal path and the other one isn't, therefore the one that isn't is of lesser importance.
No worries. Yes, apparently the shunt resistors aren't supposed to matter, sonically, as technically they're not in the signal path. If that's incorrect, then I'm simply quoting what I've often seen mentioned.
However, tests proved that this wasn't the case, and that they were clearly influencing the music signal, which is another good reason to ultimately trust your ears, and if necessary, throw theories out of the window! ;)
Marco.
RothwellAudio
25-09-2017, 15:34
No worries. Yes, apparently the shunt resistors aren't supposed to matter, sonically, as technically they're not in the signal path. If that's incorrect, then I'm simply quoting what I've often seen mentioned.
However, tests proved that this wasn't the case, and that they were clearly influencing the music signal, which is another good reason to ultimately trust your ears, and if necessary, throw theories out of the window! ;)
Marco.
Sorry, I'm confused now. Did the tests show that the shunt resistors "were clearly influencing the music signal"? If so, that's what I was saying.
I'm not aware of any theory which would explain why one resistor should be more important than the other, so no theory needs to be thrown out of the window - only the internet rumour that the "signal path" resistor is the important one needs to be thrown out of the window.
Ali Tait
25-09-2017, 15:34
Oli, have a look here at the 200 dollar autoformers. One of the best bargains in audio IMO.
http://www.intactaudio.com/atten.html
These make a superb passive pre.
farflungstar
25-09-2017, 15:38
Oli, have a look here at the 200 dollar autoformers. One of the best bargains in audio IMO.
http://www.intactaudio.com/atten.html
These make a superb passive pre.Yes they do - I had the ready built modules for a while before selling to a member. Easy to hook up and imo better than mfa.
Sorry, I'm confused now. Did the tests show that the shunt resistors "were clearly influencing the music signal"? If so, that's what I was saying.
Yes they did, so you are right.
I'm not aware of any theory which would explain why one resistor should be more important than the other, so no theory needs to be thrown out of the window - only the internet rumour that the "signal path" resistor is the important one needs to be thrown out of the window.
Well, I've read a few times (can't remember where now), it was thought that the shunts were there simply to perform and electrical function, not a sonic one. I'd definitely disagree with that, but in terms of overall sonic influence, the series resistors had the greatest effect.
Marco.
RothwellAudio
25-09-2017, 15:47
Yes they did, so you are right...
...but in terms of overall sonic influence, the series resistors had the greatest effect.
I can't be right if the series resistors had the greatest effect. And how it's possible to differentiate between an electrical function and a sonic one, I have no idea.
I think we had better agree to disagree on this one.
Not at all. We're agreeing that the shunts DO influence the music signal. Where we perhaps disagree is that the series resistors are more sonically influential, but that's simply what I (repeatedly) heard during those tests.
Marco.
RothwellAudio
25-09-2017, 15:53
Not at all. We're agreeing that the shunts DO influence the music signal. Where we perhaps disagree is that the series resistors are more sonically influential, but that's simply what I (repeatedly) heard during those tests.
Marco.
I thought you said "unfortunately, there was no practical way of removing and upgrading the surface-mounted shunt resistors on the existing switches". Did you change the the shunt resistors at all? If not, what are you basing your conclusions on?
A completely new set of dual-mono Elma switches that a mate of mine had made, fully populated with Z-foils and incorporated into a passive preamp, which trounced the Goldpoint! ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
25-09-2017, 16:02
Oli, have a look here at the 200 dollar autoformers. One of the best bargains in audio IMO.
http://www.intactaudio.com/atten.html
These make a superb passive pre.
I have a serious hankering to try those.
Or this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Angle-Audio-LDR-Passive-Preamplifier-Phono-Stage-Dual-Input-/132336526290?hash=item1ecfdf23d2:g:lXwAAOSw5cNYc-aB
This one, Andrew:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/8DcbVM.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/UmdoqV.jpg
Observe the plethora of Z-Foils, in both series and shunt positions.....
It is, by far and away, *the* best passive preamp I've ever heard! A true 'cost no object' design. But ultimately, my active Croft valve preamp was better still, which was when I gave up on passives.
Marco.
walpurgis
25-09-2017, 16:25
I've spotted something neat and rather different that may take your fancy Oliver. Take a look here: https://www.pieroserra.com/serra-passive-preamp/
southall-1998
25-09-2017, 16:41
I've spotted something neat and rather different that may take your fancy Oliver. Take a look here: https://www.pieroserra.com/serra-passive-preamp/
Distinctive!
S.
Bigman80
25-09-2017, 17:10
Well thanks guys for all the input. I understand next to none of it [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
Geoff, I F@cking love that weird preamp. And yes Ali, the autoformers are on the radar but WTF is everything so expensive!!!!!!
Depressed by my lack of funds, I have mutilated my own preamp.
Shoddy workmanship yes. Quality silver and copper cable - yes result ? Well, I am now convinced that a mono volume pot setup would get this little Frankenstein to about 90% of the GP. Crazy.
It's now only lacking that last /1000th of performance but the soundtage and separation is definitely a step behind. I am convinced another volume pot would add that so I shall try it when funds allow.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170925/4aec7c1cc58e16917afc3c18c827e60d.jpg
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. And yes Ali, the autoformers are on the radar but WTF is everything so expensive!!!!!!
The really good stuff is expensive, and when you cost it you see why. No such thing as a free lunch. I figured out a while back that the only way I can afford the standard I want is to buy second -hand or DIY. It's shame but there it is. Of course there is a lot of expensive stuff that is just average. But it isn't hard to avoid.
The Autoformer passive Ali recommends building is the one I would go for. I agree with him it sounds better, or should I say, I preferred it, to the Music First Silly Money passive.
Bigman80
25-09-2017, 17:40
The really good stuff is expensive, and when you cost it you see why. No such thing as a free lunch. I figured out a while back that the only way I can afford the standard I want is to buy second -hand or DIY. It's shame but there it is. Of course there is a lot of expensive stuff that is just average. But it isn't hard to avoid.
The Autoformer passive Ali recommends building is the one I would go for. I agree with him it sounds better, or should I say, I preferred it, to the Music First Silly Money passive.When I'm not trying to pay for a new tonearm, I will have a look. I'm sure Ali offered to wire it up for me too lol.
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pgarrish
25-09-2017, 17:45
Well thanks guys for all the input. I understand next to none of it [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
Geoff, I F@cking love that weird preamp. And yes Ali, the autoformers are on the radar but WTF is everything so expensive!!!!!!
Depressed by my lack of funds, I have mutilated my own preamp.
Shoddy workmanship yes. Quality silver and copper cable - yes result ? Well, I am now convinced that a mono volume pot setup would get this little Frankenstein to about 90% of the GP. Crazy.
It's now only lacking that last /1000th of performance but the soundtage and separation is definitely a step behind. I am convinced another volume pot would add that so I shall try it when funds allow.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170925/4aec7c1cc58e16917afc3c18c827e60d.jpg
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
I doubt two alps would do much if anything. You'd be better buying a stepped attenuator. No idea if the Vale things on ebay are any good, but a DACT switch is miles better than an Alps blue - I have a similar box to yours only mine is even uglier :) and the move to the DACT was significant, much more so than fancy shunt resistors, plugs, wire etc. I'd be tempted to install a common earthing point and run a dedicated earth from the alps and the switch to it (star earth) but you look to have done a nicer job than I did between the plugs and the earthing in a passive is vital.
Bigman80
25-09-2017, 17:46
I doubt two alps would do much if anything. You'd be better buying a stepped attenuator. No idea if the Vale things on ebay are any good, but a DACT switch is miles better than an Alps blue - I have a similar box to yours only mine is even uglier :) and the move to the DACT was significant, much more so than fancy shunt resistors, plugs, wire etc. I'd be tempted to install a common earthing point and run a dedicated earth from the alps and the switch to it (star earth) but you look to have done a nicer job than I did between the plugs and the earthing in a passive is vital.DACT? Got a link?
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Firebottle
25-09-2017, 17:46
Ooh, the makers not going to be happy :nono:
Have you connected the shields of the coax used to anything? Doesn't look like it.
You could have just pulled the centre conductor out and used that.
:D
pgarrish
25-09-2017, 17:49
DACT? Got a link?
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www.dact.com/html/attenuators.html
http://www.partsconnexion.com/controls_vol_dact.html
not sure where you can buy them in the UK. About £130 I think.
Re Alan's post - one option with multi core cable is to connect the shield to the earth of the plug but don't connect the other end.
Bigman80
25-09-2017, 17:53
Ooh, the makers not going to be happy :nono:
Have you connected the shields of the coax used to anything? Doesn't look like it.
You could have just pulled the centre conductor out and used that.
:DHaha sorry to butcher your work,Al. Nope just used the center. Last bit I did I realised I could remover the center lol. Typical.
Knowing I can ring you to fix it gave me the confidence to attack it lol
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Bigman80
25-09-2017, 17:54
Cheers!
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The really good stuff is expensive, and when you cost it you see why. No such thing as a free lunch.
I completely agree, but as long as the money has been spent where it matters most. Sadly, that's not always the case with some expensive stuff. It has to be expensive for the right reasons! ;)
Marco.
Lawrence001
25-09-2017, 18:02
The potentiometer / stepped attenuator and the input selector i.e. switch contacts.And the wires, box and solder. Oh yes and the feet. But I don't think the colour matters so much.
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Hi Paul,
I doubt two alps would do much if anything. You'd be better buying a stepped attenuator. No idea if the Vale things on ebay are any good, but a DACT switch is miles better than an Alps blue - I have a similar box to yours only mine is even uglier... and the move to the DACT was significant, much more so than fancy shunt resistors, plugs, wire etc. I'd be tempted to install a common earthing point and run a dedicated earth from the alps and the switch to it (star earth) but you look to have done a nicer job than I did between the plugs and the earthing in a passive is vital.
I agree about the DACT, as that's what I use on the Croft, and it simply offers an 'open window' onto the music, such is the almost complete lack of 'sonic signature'. It makes Alps pots sound positively veiled and muddy in comparison.
It's highly revealing nature, however, throws a critical spotlight on the partnering circuit, so only use if you value a 'warts and all' style presentation, which majors on clarity, not if you want to add some 'warmth', or whatever, and employ pots as glorified tone controls.
In terms of the bit in blue, as usual, any piece of equipment is ultimately only as good as the SUM of its parts, not simply focussing on one specific area, so "fancy shunt resistors, plugs and wire", all impart their own [very valuable] contribution to the final sound! :)
Marco.
I completely agree, but as long as the money has been spent where it matters most. Sadly, that's not always the case with some expensive stuff. It has to be expensive for the right reasons! ;)
Marco.
Yep as I said some is average at best. Or it is very good but priced for exclusivity or because it has diamonds embedded in it and 24 karat gold fittings and so on. Parts that costs a bomb but has no influence on the sound. If you've got the money, why not? The rest of us have to be more discerning.
Yep as I said some is average at best. Or it is very good but priced for exclusivity or because it has diamonds embedded in it and 24 karat gold fittings and so on. Parts that costs a bomb but has no influence on the sound. If you've got the money, why not? The rest of us have to be more discerning.
Why not indeed, but as someone who has the money, I see such superfluous frippery simply as vulgar pretentiousness, and would rather spend it instead on music, or wine!
Marco.
Bigman80
27-09-2017, 14:54
Little update -
Alan popped round yesterday and we had a listen to the Goldpoint and it was unanimous that it's quite clearly the best preamp here. It's not much of a challenge due to the standard it's up against but there was something niggling about the scale. I didn't feel it was revealing the level of LF I'd heard previously. It was suggested that the output caps were not big enough on the Jolida and due to the resistance of the GP, that it may be having that undesirable affect.
So I fitted these larger caps today. They need some time to open up as they hadn't been used previously. Bottom end is now what I would call.....ground shaking but the soundstage and open feel I had previously is missing. obviously it's the newness of the caps. Many hours of music to be played.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/c0da94a97a67fa5faba38a8c8aaaabfe.jpg
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RothwellAudio
28-09-2017, 15:00
Bottom end is now what I would call.....ground shaking but the soundstage and open feel I had previously is missing. obviously it's the newness of the caps. Many hours of music to be played.
The newness of the caps may be the problem, but I wouldn't say "obviously". It's quite possible that the smaller caps were saving the Jolida's output stage from having to work hard at low frequencies. Now it's working harder at low frequencies it's compromised its performance. Anyway, that's just one possible alternative explanation. BTW, I have no idea what the Jolida's output stage looks like.
Bigman80
28-09-2017, 15:06
Oh, that's troubling.
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Firebottle
28-09-2017, 16:14
Andrew, Oliver, it's no trouble.
The output is an SRPP arrangement, could be bettered but Oliver wants to keep the Jolida original.
Bigman80
28-09-2017, 17:17
Andrew, Oliver, it's no trouble.
The output is an SRPP arrangement, could be bettered but Oliver wants to keep the Jolida original.Yup, nothing wrong with it as is !!!!
Just out of curiosity, bettered how?
Ps, does that mean the output stage isn't being overworked?
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We had a passive pre bake off at NEBO a few years ago and the modded Goldpoint in this thread was one of the contenders. I thought the power amp in use masked differences a bit but the Goldpoint still stood out as notably different in its presentation. It did sound 'open' but it also lacked a bit of 'oomph' - Ali's Slagel pre sounded similar but didn't lack the 'oomph'. So correcting the problem by modding the Jolida may not be optimal solution.
Arkless Electronics
28-09-2017, 17:49
We had a passive pre bake off at NEBO a few years ago and the modded Goldpoint in this thread was one of the contenders. I thought the power amp in use masked differences a bit but the Goldpoint still stood out as notably different in its presentation. It did sound 'open' but it also lacked a bit of 'oomph' - Ali's Slagel pre sounded similar but didn't lack the 'oomph'. So correcting the problem by modding the Jolida may not be optimal solution.
I recall there being bugger all difference between them, as expected, (not none at all but barely noticeable and I was wondering if I was kidding myself that I could hear any difference really) apart from the Slagle TVC which was noticeably slightly bright and brought out leading edges of plucked guitar etc... which sounded nice (more impressive) but probably not as accurate as the others.
Bigman80
28-09-2017, 18:04
We had a passive pre bake off at NEBO a few years ago and the modded Goldpoint in this thread was one of the contenders. I thought the power amp in use masked differences a bit but the Goldpoint still stood out as notably different in its presentation. It did sound 'open' but it also lacked a bit of 'oomph' - Ali's Slagel pre sounded similar but didn't lack the 'oomph'. So correcting the problem by modding the Jolida may not be optimal solution.Can swap the caps back once the slagle arrives. No drama.
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walpurgis
28-09-2017, 18:08
Can swap the caps back once the slagle arrives.
Having a bash at an AVC job Oliver? You'll like that.
Bigman80
28-09-2017, 18:12
I am Geoff, modded the Jolida to Try and get the best from the Goldpoint, lost the soundstage a bit so presumably that'll be the newness of the caps although there could be a trade-off from using bigger capacitors. Trialing Ali Tait's Slagle AVC which should be with me tomorrow. I'll drop the old caps back in and see how they do. Interesting stuff mate. I'm hoping for big things from it.
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I recall there being bugger all difference between them, as expected, (not none at all but barely noticeable and I was wondering if I was kidding myself that I could hear any difference really) apart from the Slagle TVC which was noticeably slightly bright and brought out leading edges of plucked guitar etc... which sounded nice (more impressive) but probably not as accurate as the others.
Pretty much exactly my own impressions. I liked what the Slagle did too, but if that was right then the rest were wrong.
Bigman80
28-09-2017, 18:18
Pretty much exactly my own impressions. I liked what the Slagle did too, but if that was right then the rest were wrong.Haha, it seems to be another "matter of taste" situation. I'm enjoying the GP. It was very open and revealing. If the Slagle does that with some extra umph, I'll be very impressed.
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walpurgis
28-09-2017, 18:21
It'll be a whole different ball game mate. Basic passives can have their uses, but after using an AVC or TVC, I don't think you'll be wanting to go back.
I had one extremely good TVC, a MingDa MC-9, which sounds stunning with the two Monarchy Audio power-amps and my buddy has just given me another, a Promitheus, for which I'm very grateful, as it suits the Quad 306 rather well (vastly underrated power-amp the 306, a little gem! :)).
Something may have to go though. That's six pre-amps here now! Trouble is, I like 'em all :D
Pretty much exactly my own impressions. I liked what the Slagle did too, but if that was right then the rest were wrong.
only right if you liked it i guess, unless you prefer what you like less....if that makes sense:) with all my gear I didnt care what it was, just what it did together.
walpurgis
28-09-2017, 18:29
with all my gear I didnt care what it was, just what it did together.
Exactly Grant. The end result is what matters and some unlikely combos can work really well.
only right if you liked it i guess, unless you prefer what you like less....if that makes sense:) with all my gear I didnt care what it was, just what it did together.
I did seriously consider buying the Slagle when it came up for sale on here a while back. After all it could be that the Slagle is right and the others are wrong ;) Anyway, I liked what it did regardless.
A good passive attenuator shouldn't alter the sound signals passing through it at all and if it does, only the very tiniest amount. The Goldpoint you're playing with had significant alterations made to it I understand so anything could be going on. I don't know the spec of the power amps you use and the phono stage is a strange one with its valve output buffer - a Croft RIAA may have been a far better option possibly if you wouldn't consider the known £500 one you liked... Not sure that 'shunt' resistors are in the signal path in an attenuator, they just take gain away and alter the loads as seen by the source at the input and power amp at the output and used with 'wacky' sources and non-standard power amps, anything can happen and often does in my experience - I'm not trolling or having a go here!
Maybe you should strip everything back to basics with known stock items, for cheapness a Rega Fono (A-D) as it's CHEAP, hum free and gives a good small-scale performance with popular MM cartridges (the Schiit Mani hums if it isn't happy I'm told by a frustrated ex-owner who replaced it with the Fono A-D), one of the cheapo passives out there (one I know rather well ;) and there are a couple of others if you look around for a ton or so). Maybe even a used known good neutral power amp to keep in a cupboard as a reference (a Quad 306 makes an excellent standby amp, they hold their value incredibly well, are easy to service and a couple of years little use won't devalue it later on- it's perfect with a passive controller too and Quad recommended one at the time for owners of old worn-out 33's).
Sorry to go on. If you don't have a universally known good reference point, merely 'trusting your ears' can lead you so far down the garden path and up your backside in the process, you'll completely lose touch with what things should be. I've been there myself, looking back and am only trying to help...
Bigman80
28-09-2017, 18:41
It'll be a whole different ball game mate. Basic passives can have their uses, but after using an AVC or TVC, I don't think you'll be wanting to go back.
I had one extremely good TVC, a MingDa MC-9, which sounds stunning with the two Monarchy Audio power-amps and my buddy has just given me another, a Promitheus, for which I'm very grateful, as it suits the Quad 306 rather well (vastly underrated power-amp the 306, a little gem! :)).
Something may have to go though. That's six pre-amps here now! Trouble is, I like 'em all :DYes, I am sure it will give me food for thought. So will sleeping in the doghouse if I decide I can't live without it lol.
Seriously, I completely underated the importance of the preamp in a system, Like Jez, believing it couldn't make much difference. I was wrong.
Spoke to Al, the Jolida shouldn't have any issues with the new caps. He has a copy of the circuit diagrams too. All is good.
BTW they are aluminium and oil Mundorf Evos.
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Arkless Electronics
28-09-2017, 19:47
Yes, I am sure it will give me food for thought. So will sleeping in the doghouse if I decide I can't live without it lol.
Seriously, I completely underated the importance of the preamp in a system, Like Jez, believing it couldn't make much difference. I was wrong.
Spoke to Al, the Jolida shouldn't have any issues with the new caps. He has a copy of the circuit diagrams too. All is good.
BTW they are aluminium and oil Mundorf Evos.
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Each to their own but personally I don't think there's any difference worth noting between decent quality passive attenuators. They do sound better than a typical pot though in my experience. I also wouldn't use a TVC personally. Any "improvement" they may bring will be due to added colourations and I want my sound accurate above "nice".
Bigman80
28-09-2017, 19:49
Each to their own but personally I don't think there's any difference worth noting between decent quality passive attenuators. They do sound better than a typical pot though in my experience. I also wouldn't use a TVC personally. Any "improvement" they may bring will be due to added colourations and I want my sound accurate above "nice".Is that a definite or general consensus? I'm a blank canvas as I've never tried one.
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Is that a definite or general consensus? I'm a blank canvas as I've never tried one.
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No, there's as much debate about this as with everything else. On paper a stepped attenuator passive is the most 'truthful'. But not completely so. And then you have personal taste on what you want the sound to be like. As Jez said earlier, the Slagle passive enhanced leading edges a little compared to the others. This could be colouration or the truth, hard to say without listening to a wider variety of recordings than we did. If you have too much colouration some recordings are enhanced, some become unlistenable. That's when you've gone wrong. If you can get it sounding how you want it without falling into that trap, you've cracked it.
I've not cracked it yet.
Bigman80
28-09-2017, 20:15
No, there's as much debate about this as with everything else. On paper a stepped attenuator passive is the most 'truthful'. But not completely so. And then you have personal taste on what you want the sound to be like. As Jez said earlier, the Slagle passive enhanced leading edges a little compared to the others. This could be colouration or the truth, hard to say without listening to a wider variety of recordings than we did. If you have too much colouration some recordings are enhanced, some become unlistenable. That's when you've gone wrong. If you can get it sounding how you want it without falling into that trap, you've cracked it.
I've not cracked it yet.That's encouraging and disheartening at the same time lol.
I've started to realise that in reality the only truth out there is listening to it live at busking level etc. Once recording equipment gets involved its all moving away from the truth. Think I'm gonna focus on getting a realistic sound that I'm confident sounds as clear and transparent as possible. Other than that, i think we're on a hiding to nothing. If I like what I hear, I can't be wrong.
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RothwellAudio
28-09-2017, 20:41
... Not sure that 'shunt' resistors are in the signal path in an attenuator, they just take gain away and alter the loads as seen by the source at the input and power amp at the output...
I think this should be the last time I say this or else I'll get a reputation for banging on about it:
A potential divider (that's what a passive preamp is) simply puts the source voltage across two (or more) resistors in series. The ratio of the two resistances determines the two voltages you will get - one voltage across one resistor, the other voltage across the other resistor. Given two equal resistors you will get two equal voltages. Given, say, a 9k resistor and a 1k resistor you will get 10% of the source voltage across one resistor and 90% of the source voltage across the other. The source's signal voltage splits across the two resistors and the signal current flows through both.
How can one resistor not be in the signal path?
As Jez said earlier, the Slagle passive enhanced leading edges a little compared to the others. This could be colouration or the truth, hard to say without listening to a wider variety of recordings than we did. If you have too much colouration some recordings are enhanced, some become unlistenable.
Putting a signal through a transformer sometimes produces overshoot on transients, clearly seen on a square wave.
http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/Oscillators/images/square-wave-overshoot.gif
This has the effect of apparently enhancing detail on simple music but as you rightly point out can make busy music sound very confused. Overshoot is actually well-damped ringing. Poorly damped ringing is worse and looks like this:
http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/Oscillators/images/square-wave-ringing.gif
That's encouraging and disheartening at the same time lol.
I've started to realise that in reality the only truth out there is listening to it live at busking level etc. Once recording equipment gets involved its all moving away from the truth.
I'm saying truthful to the recording not truthful to the real thing. Hi-fi is all about being truthful to the recording. Not the live experience. That's another trap it is best not fall into. The 'flat earth' trap, that is. I've been in that one too :)
Bigman80
28-09-2017, 21:01
I'm saying truthful to the recording not truthful to the real thing. Hi-fi is all about being truthful to the recording. Not the live experience. That's another trap it is best not fall into. The 'flat earth' trap, that is. I've been in that one too :)Ha, I get your point. Well, hopefully I'm on the right path. It sounds like it.
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walpurgis
28-09-2017, 21:03
I'm saying truthful to the recording not truthful to the real thing. Hi-fi is all about being truthful to the recording. Not the live experience. That's another trap it is best not fall into. The 'flat earth' trap, that is. I've been in that one too :)
Quite right. It's the recording that should be truthful to the real thing. The Hi-Fi just has to get on with doing its best to render the recording accurately.
Bigman80
28-09-2017, 21:16
Quite right. It's the recording that should be truthful to the real thing. The Hi-Fi just has to get on with doing its best to render the recording accurately.How do we know what accurate is. Isn't it perception
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walpurgis
28-09-2017, 21:58
How do we know what accurate is. Isn't it perception
Accurate compared to what though? Even the accuracy of whatever yardstick is used for comparison or measurement can be questioned. So at the end, even the data and standards strictly adhered to by some can be questioned. I suppose accuracy is subjective. (bet Jez has a pop at me now :lol:)
Bigman80
28-09-2017, 22:38
Accurate compared to what though? Even the accuracy of whatever yardstick is used for comparison or measurement can be questioned. So at the end, even the data and standards strictly adhered to by some can be questioned. I suppose accuracy is subjective. (bet Jez has a pop at me now [emoji38])Haha, that's exactly what I thought, there is no yard stick, just the comparison to other gear which is total subjective and solely the opinion of the listener. I feel I'm only a couple of upgrades away from what will be the best sound I can achieve. Whether those steps happen is another thing entirely lol
What I want to add is an Ortofon Vienna and the right Pre, the Technics SP10 is on the way and then there's the issue of the arm to address. After that, I want to upgrade the speaker posts in my pioneers, build some nice wooden stands for them and that'll be me done.....maybe speaker wire too.
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walpurgis
28-09-2017, 22:55
the best sound I can achieve
It doesn't exist mate. Ask those who have spent enough to buy a house. Even they think to themselves 'what if I tried..............?'
Once you've done the 'Technics bit' and bought a suitably expensive matching arm and pondered and mused over the outcome. You'll be resigned to the fact that the SR-370 + 774 was just as musical and then throw the towel in. :lol:
Trust me. You want a pair of big Tannoys, some Class A amplification (my solid state works brilliantly, but then so do my valves :rolleyes:) and a TVC or AVC pre-amp. And stay with a ZYX (or Decca). All just my opinion of course ;).
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 06:50
It doesn't exist mate. Ask those who have spent enough to buy a house. Even they think to themselves 'what if I tried..............?'
Once you've done the 'Technics bit' and bought a suitably expensive matching arm and pondered and mused over the outcome. You'll be resigned to the fact that the SR-370 + 774 was just as musical and then throw the towel in. [emoji38]
Trust me. You want a pair of big Tannoys, some Class A amplification (my solid state works brilliantly, but then so do my valves :rolleyes:) and a TVC or AVC pre-amp. And stay with a ZYX (or Decca). All just my opinion of course ;).Haha, there's no hope for us.
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Firebottle
29-09-2017, 07:20
Now I like you Geoff and you are a credit to the forum. You have given excellent advice to quite a few but please keep your gob shut with this:
It doesn't exist mate.
You'll be tipping us all into audiophillia nervosa and I ain't 'aving it :eyebrows:
Anyway 'your solid state Class A amplification' is no better than my hybrid monoblocks, so there :ner:
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 07:57
[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
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Bigman80
29-09-2017, 10:31
Let battle commence. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170929/bd9af6edd31e0e4125b3270c45e8ae07.jpg
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walpurgis
29-09-2017, 10:56
What's the Elektra thingy at the bottom?
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 11:01
What's the Elektra thingy at the bottom?That's the AVC from Ali Tait. It's got the autoformers in. It's bloody good is what it is lol
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Arkless Electronics
29-09-2017, 11:49
No, there's as much debate about this as with everything else. On paper a stepped attenuator passive is the most 'truthful'. But not completely so. And then you have personal taste on what you want the sound to be like. As Jez said earlier, the Slagle passive enhanced leading edges a little compared to the others. This could be colouration or the truth, hard to say without listening to a wider variety of recordings than we did. If you have too much colouration some recordings are enhanced, some become unlistenable. That's when you've gone wrong. If you can get it sounding how you want it without falling into that trap, you've cracked it.
I've not cracked it yet.
I would say that they are completely accurate and perfect in an audio context. The only thing more accurate is a frequency compensated stepped attenuator in a 50 Ohm system and this is irrelevant until we get to MHz frequencies...
Something I keep mentioning is that a perfect anything in hi fi, other than speakers I guess, would likely not stand out as anything special. It's "just" not adding or taking away anything at all. If you are used to a range of top quality equipment and something new comes along that sounds really "wow!" I'd be very suspicious of it... It's probably really coloured in a way that's initially impressive or at least on one type of music...
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 12:21
I would say that they are completely accurate and perfect in an audio context. The only thing more accurate is a frequency compensated stepped attenuator in a 50 Ohm system and this is irrelevant until we get to MHz frequencies...
Something I keep mentioning is that a perfect anything in hi fi, other than speakers I guess, would likely not stand out as anything special. It's "just" not adding or taking away anything at all. If you are used to a range of top quality equipment and something new comes along that sounds really "wow!" I'd be very suspicious of it... It's probably really coloured in a way that's initially impressive or at least on one type of music...I see what you're saying Jez. In all honesty, the GP was a wow moment after my pre, plugging the avc in is more of a subtle Change. Pretty much instantly, I felt the AVC was more natural in its presentation of tone and this was confirmed over about 10 different tracks, the bass in fuller and driven and the treble has a bit more depth to it. I really like the AVC. It's my favourite of the three in my system.
One quandary, it seems that the channels are swapped in the AVC. On the FB and GP preamps the channels correspond with the CD version of the same track but the AVC is opposite. A quick swap of the interconnects to switch them back has sorted it but wondered if that's a thing with Autoformers or a wiring error?
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Arkless Electronics
29-09-2017, 12:49
Wiring error.
Well as long as you're happy but I wouldn't use one no matter how good it sounds because a stepped attenuator is better. It may not sound better to some but it is better as it is more accurate. I want accuracy above all else from my system.
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 12:50
Wiring error.
Well as long as you're happy but I wouldn't use one no matter how good it sounds because a stepped attenuator is better. It may not sound better to some but it is better as it is more accurate. I want accuracy above all else from my system.Fair enough Jez.
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Haha, it seems to be another "matter of taste" situation. I'm enjoying the GP. It was very open and revealing. If the Slagle does that with some extra umph, I'll be very impressed.
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Interesting that you point out 'umph', whilst a passive can be more transparent and 'open' as you say it comes at a penalty of lacking slam and macro-dynamics compared to an active. So, which is more faithful to the music? You make your choice. I personally miss the 'umph' when I use passives, and I've tried some serious ones. My source has an output impedance of 90R (4R without the output transformers), so is not a bottleneck here.
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 13:04
Interesting that you point out 'umph', whilst a passive can be more transparent it comes at a penalty of lacking slam and macro-dynamics compared to an active. So, which is more faithful to the music? You make your choice.I suppose so but impact can be lost if it's not delivered. The passive may be the least intrusive but to my ears it's lacking the impact and force when a drum roll takes place. It's not the case with the AVC. The AVC is more realistic in that respect. I imagine it'll be a trade-off somewhere for either unit.
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I suppose so but impact can be lost if it's not delivered. The passive may be the least intrusive but to my ears it's lacking the impact and force when a drum roll takes place. It's not the case with the AVC. The AVC is more realistic in that respect. I imagine it'll be a trade-off somewhere for either unit.
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...yes, that lacking of 'impact' and 'force' is exactly what I notice too.
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 13:08
...yes, that lacking of 'impact' and 'force' is exactly what I notice too.Hmmmm, there seems to be very little between the two in terms of resolution and detail, the leading edge of notes is more apparent but I'd attribute this to impact. It's strange but there's just something about the way the AVC delivers the music that feels right.
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I recall there being bugger all difference between them, as expected, (not none at all but barely noticeable and I was wondering if I was kidding myself that I could hear any difference really) apart from the Slagle TVC which was noticeably slightly bright and brought out leading edges of plucked guitar etc... which sounded nice (more impressive) but probably not as accurate as the others.
I was also present at the 'passive bake-off' Macca mentioned, and broadly agree with both your comments and his.
I liked the Slagle, but (sorry, Ali and also Geoff) I could still hear the coloration I always do when listening to transformer-based passives, which is that they tend to 'fill in' the bottom end a little and add some warmth to the midrange (somewhat like valves), which can definitely make things sound subjectively better, in terms of increasing (perceived) 'musicality'.
What they also do, in my experience, is provide some 'drive', akin to that offered by a good active preamp, which often gives the impression of injecting music with more 'life', and I think the Slagle did that better than any of the other passives tested that day, including the Goldpoint, which in the test system used, sounded somewhat lacklustre.
Certainly compared with what I was accustomed to from it in my own system, and what Oliver has since reported in his.
The GP was very much (painstakingly) 'tuned' to a) suit the 'loudness structure' [down boy :D] in my system, and more crucially, its sonic signature, and so was 'voiced' (largely by me), like my TD Copper amp, to be as neutral sounding and act as much as an 'open window' onto recordings as possible, such as Oliver has commented. The Z-Foil resistors fitted were instrumental in achieving that.
In that respect, it was quite clear to me that the GP wasn't an optimal match, sonically or otherwise, for the particular characteristics of the test system that day, which again for me ably proved how much passive preamps are 'suck it and see' devices, with some ultimately being more compatible with certain partnering equipment than others.
It's the only piece of gear I've ever taken to a bake-off that hasn't largely performed the same way as it does in my system at home, and sounded fantastic, in the way of what's happened when I've taken the Croft and/or the Copper amp on their travels, or even my Technics T/T - and for me that tells its own story.
As ever in audio, synergy (together with personal sonic preferences) is king! And in that respect, a TVC might hit the spot for Oliver. I'll be most interested in what his findings are between any TVC he puts into his system, compared with the Goldpoint.
Marco.
Im with Ali and Geoff LOL.. or am I ???:D
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 13:48
I have to say the GP did blow my mind. It was like id opened the curtains and windows and then decided to knock the wall down for a better view. It may sound dramatic but that's the impact it had on me. I plugged it in when Alan popped round and he too mirrored my thoughts. There is something not synergistic with my system though as i get a tiny bit of distortion on crescendos but i am sure whatever it is could be fixed, if it were mine. It delivers music with precision and neutrality. The AVC DOES seem to be richer, maybe sweeter and yes i'd echo that it has an element of "valve" midrange BUT i have valves in my Phonostage and my monoblocks so is it the AVC or is it just revealing the tonal qualities i set out to achieve when i bought them? Is the GP tonally anaemic? Its hard to say and having very little exposure to different types of Pre, i dont think i'll know for sure. What i do know is that the AVC makes cymbals sound metallic, which they are. Like a drumstick is actually strining the surface and moving the metal. The GP doesn't. I am susceptible to inaccuracies in percussion due to playing drums. Its very close to what i hear when i play, same with guitar and piano. Play those too, (piano badly lol)
To surmise, i think i'll need a week or so of listening as i did with the GP, to really know what i think.
No, there's as much debate about this as with everything else. On paper a stepped attenuator passive is the most 'truthful'.
I'd contend that, if everything is going in its favour, in terms of it optimally matching the system it's going to be used with (as I've outlined), then a stepped attenuator passive is the most 'truthful', but not ultimately as much for me as the BEST active designs, which can be hugely expensive in comparison.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
29-09-2017, 13:51
I've never noticed any lack of drive, slam or dynamics when using a passive... nor is it technically possible for there to be any such loss! (sounds like symptoms of needing to turn the volume up to me!). A passive attenuator is about the most perfect item, technically speaking, in a hi fi system and has near as damn it no distortion, no noise and a perfectly flat frequency response with no ringing etc from DC to 100KHz + It's a "straight wire with loss"! Like it said in the film, maybe some people "can't handle the truth" :eyebrows:
Hi Oliver,
I see what you're saying Jez. In all honesty, the GP was a wow moment after my pre, plugging the avc in is more of a subtle Change. Pretty much instantly, I felt the AVC was more natural in its presentation of tone and this was confirmed over about 10 different tracks, the bass in fuller and driven and the treble has a bit more depth to it. I really like the AVC. It's my favourite of the three in my system.
Interesting, and I totally get where you're coming from, as it's largely what I heard too, for precisely the reasons I've just explained.
The AVC, for me, doesn't have the overall resolution of the Goldpoint, in terms of that 'stripping of veils' and 'hearing right into the music', but it does make some stuff sound more tonally convincing, and has a bit more 'drive' (such as you've noticed with drums).
Therefore, ultimately like any other piece of kit, it's all down to what YOU prefer and what matches best with your system :cool:
One thing I would say is that I can assure you the GP didn't possess the qualities you appreciate and recognise now, when it was in stock form, until my mate Duncan (tubehunter) rewired the switches, to shorten the signal path (for details, see the thread I started on the Goldpoint), and afterwards when the series resistors were upgraded to Z-foils.
The stock unit, for me, was a huge let down [sounding rather veiled and lacklustre], the opposite from what it does now, and would've been punted on almost immediately, had Duncan not done to it what he did.
Marco.
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 14:12
I've never noticed any lack of drive, slam or dynamics when using a passive... nor is it technically possible for there to be any such loss! (sounds like symptoms of needing to turn the volume up to me!). A passive attenuator is about the most perfect item, technically speaking, in a hi fi system and has near as damn it no distortion, no noise and a perfectly flat frequency response with no ringing etc from DC to 100KHz + It's a "straight wire with loss"! Like it said in the film, maybe some people "can't handle the truth" :eyebrows:Trust me Jez, the volume was up lol.
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I've never noticed any lack of drive, slam or dynamics when using a passive... nor is it technically possible for there to be any such loss! (sounds like symptoms of needing to turn the volume up to me!). :
Agree. With a passive you can bang the spl right up without any of the shout or glare you will get from anything but the best active preamps. Maybe if you only listen at background level you'll prefer an active for that reason. Although if you only ever listen at that level it isn't really worth bothering with a proper hi fi in the first place.
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 14:16
Hi Oliver,
Interesting, and I totally get where you're coming from, as it's largely what I heard too, for precisely the reasons I've just explained.
The AVC, for me, doesn't have the overall resolution of the Goldpoint, in terms of that 'stripping of veils' and 'hearing right into' the music, but it does make some stuff sound more tonally convincing, and has a bit more 'drive' (such as you've noticed with drums).
Therefore, ultimately like any other piece of kit, it's all down to what YOU prefer and what matches best with your system :cool:
One thing I would say is that I can assure you the GP didn't possess the qualities you appreciate and recognise in it now, when it was in stock form, until my mate Duncan (tubehunter) rewired the switches, to shorten the signal path (for details, see the thread I started on the Goldpoint), and afterwards when the series resistors were upgraded to Z-foils.
The stock unit, for me, was a huge let down [sounding rather veiled and lacklustre], the opposite from what it does now, and would've been punted on almost immediately, had Duncan not done to it what he did.
Marco.
That's a good point well made there. It's all personal preference. It's a difficult choice between Ultimate resolution and tonal accuracy. Surely there must be something that provides both!!!! Probably not.
Its a quality item, the GP. No doubt and iME the less wire the better. No PCB is better and silver usually outperforms copper wire. You've done good things to the GP, Marco. Shaman was wise to pick it up. I'm gonna get him round for a listen to both hopefully. See what he thinks.
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I've never noticed any lack of drive, slam or dynamics when using a passive... nor is it technically possible for there to be any such loss! (sounds like symptoms of needing to turn the volume up to me!). A passive attenuator is about the most perfect item, technically speaking, in a hi fi system and has near as damn it no distortion, no noise and a perfectly flat frequency response with no ringing etc from DC to 100KHz + It's a "straight wire with loss"! Like it said in the film, maybe some people "can't handle the truth" :eyebrows:
Lol, not at all, Jez. It should be patently obvious by now the type of presentation I favour from the equipment I use. Undoubtedly, to my ears, the BEST active preamps make music sound more lifelike, but that's not to say that the BEST passives lack drive or dynamics, per se. They don't. They just do in comparison, to my ears, with said actives, when that bar has been raised sufficiently high enough.
It's not something I can elucidate in words. I'd have to demonstrate it. So, one day, if you ever visit, or we're at NEBO again, you bring your passive with you and we'll compare it to the Croft, and we'll see if I can successfully demonstrate to you what I mean :cool:
Trust me, the WHOLE reason why I investigated in such depth into passives, and spent the money I did on modifying the Goldpoint, and also listening to various other examples of passive preamps in different systems, was because I completely understood why they're notionally 'perfect for audio use', and so me being me (always seeking to obtain the most 'truthful' sound), I wanted to improve that element of my system, and subsequently make it more 'accurate', by using a passive.
It's a shame, however, that in the REAL world (as opposed to the theoretical one), it didn't quite work out that way, which is why I've returned to the Croft, and now ticked off passives from my 'bucket list' ;)
Marco.
Agree. With a passive you can bang the spl right up without any of the shout or glare you will get from anything but the best active preamps.
You've heard the Croft on a couple of occasions, Martin. which I can assure you is integral to how my system sounds, so you'll know where I'm coming from in terms of what the best active (valve) preamps can do :)
Marco.
walpurgis
29-09-2017, 14:25
The AVC DOES seem to be richer, maybe sweeter and yes i'd echo that it has an element of "valve" midrange BUT i have valves in my Phonostage and my monoblocks so is it the AVC or is it just revealing the tonal qualities i set out to achieve when i bought them?
That's what I find with the TVC units.
There's more 'heft' to the sound, definitely better mid transparency and very accurate detail. I get no top end brightness either. In my system, the impression is as if there is no pre-amp and nothing is in the way of the music.
There are nay-sayers. But they've not used AVC's or TVC's to any great extent that I'm aware of. Some will not even try one 'co it has to be wrong'. Well perhaps that principle is wrong? I say at least give one a spin and see!
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 14:30
That's what I find with the TVC units.
There's more 'heft' to the sound, definitely better mid transparency and very accurate detail. I get no top end brightness either. In my system, it's there is no pre-amp and nothing is in the way of the music.
There are nay-sayers. But they've not used AVC's or TVC's to any great extent that I'm aware of. Some will not even try one 'co it has to be wrong'. Well perhaps that principle is wrong? I say at least give one a spin and see!Well, I am definitely free of pre judgement <see what I did lol.
I like it, excellent resolution, timbre and filigree. Can't argue with its qualities, just need a bit of time to see the negative side, if any.
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You've heard the Croft on a couple of occasions, Martin. which I can assure you is integral to how my system sounds, so you'll know where I'm coming from in terms of what the best active (valve) preamps can do :)
Marco.
Yes, that and Barry's Mark Levinson are the two best active preamps I have heard. They don't give anything away to a passive. Passives are a lot cheaper, though (except for the Music First one).
walpurgis
29-09-2017, 14:39
I was using two very decent pre-amps, a Forte Model 2 (Pass design) solid state pre-amp and a VTL Deluxe valve pre-amp, prior to buying my MC-9 TVC.
The Forte just had the edge on the VTL, but not by much. But, the MC-9 TVC wiped the floor with them. It's also better than the Promitheus TVC I have here. The Promitheus is a nice match to the 306 power amp though. The MC-9 sounds stunning with the Monarchy's.
Going to give the 'Modern Classic Tubes' EL34 Class A valve monos a spin tonight and try them with the Moth Series 30 pre-amp. That's a combo I've not tried yet. I've a feeling good things will happen! :)
Yes, that and Barry's Mark Levinson are the two best active preamps I have heard. They don't give anything away to a passive. Passives are a lot cheaper, though (except for the Music First one).
Yup, undeniably. However, you know me, and "cheaper" or "dearer" isn't what it's about ;)
Marco.
That's a good point well made there. It's all personal preference. It's a difficult choice between Ultimate resolution and tonal accuracy. Surely there must be something that provides both!!!! Probably not.
Yes there is, a *really* good (active) valve preamp! But it'll cost you... ;)
Its a quality item, the GP. No doubt and iME the less wire the better. No PCB is better and silver usually outperforms copper wire. You've done good things to the GP, Marco. Shaman was wise to pick it up. I'm gonna get him round for a listen to both hopefully. See what he thinks.
Cheers, mate.. Sonically, however, I have to be honest and say that it wasn't worth the money I paid for it new, in stock form. It only really 'came alive' after it'd been worked on. It was certainly well 'screwed together' though, and looked the part.
The sonic effect of every modification carried out to the Goldpoint (not just the addition of the Z-Foils) was analysed individually, including PCB vs. hardwired (with solid-silver cable), and the WBTs in comparison with the stock sockets.
The former was significant, and the latter more subtle (as you'd expect), but every modification carried out, successfully improved the GP's sound in a different but worthwhile way :)
Marco.
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 15:21
I'm not sure about the WBT sockets, they require a really snug fit. I also seem to have varying degrees of snugness between all my inputs. That's with the same set of plugs. I think that'll be on my radar to fix. A good snug connection on everything. Clamping plugs maybe.
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Yes, I agree, but I'm talking about sonically. There's always going to be a compromise, in that respect, with the existence of so little metal.
There's no question however, to my ears, that if you use the right plugs with the WBTs, in order to achieve a secure signal connection, they sound notably better (or rather, when it comes to such things as plugs, 'sound' the least like anything, other than what the source signal does), than any conventional sockets I've tried.
Marco.
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 15:52
Yes, I agree, but I'm talking about sonically. There's always going to be a compromise, in that respect, with the existence of so little metal.
There's no question however, to my ears, that if you use the right plugs with the WBTs, in order to achieve a secure signal connection, they sound notably better (or rather, when it comes to such things as plugs, 'sound' the least like anything, other than what the source signal does), than any conventional sockets I've tried.
Marco.
What plugs are we thinking of. Obviously i wont buy them lol
WBTs own, because you can 'clamp' them precisely to the point on the matching sockets [that's the key word] where the copper conductors are fixed. These are the chaps you want (using the same 'minimal metal' principle), unless you fancy shelling out for the silver versions:
http://www.wbt.de/english/products/a/Detailansicht/Artikel/nextgenTM-rca-connector-topline.html
Essentially both plugs and sockets have been engineered to be used together and physically fit, so it's hardly surprising that's the way they work best! Think about it though, how many of us would consider that fact, and then go to the trouble of using plugs and sockets together from the same manufacturer...?
Attention to detail is king! ;)
Marco.
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 16:13
Yep, they are pricey!!
So, alternatively, why aren't BNC used in audio. Surely this would be as matched and a lot cheaper. Also used in test equipment so should be very accurate.
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Yup, technically, BNCs, XLRs and other connectors, commonly used in professional applications, are superior to RCAs, which I suspect only become the de facto standard in home audio equipment, due to cost and marketing.
Marco.
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 16:42
Yup, technically, BNCs, XLRs and other connectors, commonly used in professional applications, are superior to RCAs, which I suspect only become the de-facto standard in home audio equipment, due to cost and marketing.
Marco.
Oh, that's interesting. I may have to give them a try just for research purposes.
Interesting that you point out 'umph', whilst a passive can be more transparent and 'open' as you say it comes at a penalty of lacking slam and macro-dynamics compared to an active. So, which is more faithful to the music? You make your choice. I personally miss the 'umph' when I use passives, and I've tried some serious ones. My source has an output impedance of 90R (4R without the output transformers), so is not a bottleneck here.
Umph is more important than just transparent and open in my book as it adds realism to the music. Just listen to how much umph you get from any instrument or vocal in real life, that is before they are amplified!
Lol, not at all, Jez. It should be patently obvious by now the type of presentation I favour from the equipment I use. Undoubtedly, to my ears, the BEST active preamps make music sound more lifelike, but that's not to say that the BEST passives lack drive or dynamics, per se. They don't. They just do in comparison, to my ears, with said actives, when that bar has been raised sufficiently high enough.
It's not something I can elucidate in words. I'd have to demonstrate it. So, one day, if you ever visit, or we're at NEBO again, you bring your passive with you and we'll compare it to the Croft, and we'll see if I can successfully demonstrate to you what I mean :cool:
Trust me, the WHOLE reason why I investigated in such depth into passives, and spent the money I did on modifying the Goldpoint, and also listening to various other examples of passive preamps in different systems, was because I completely understood why they're notionally 'perfect for audio use', and so me being me (always seeking to obtain the most 'truthful' sound), I wanted to improve that element of my system, and subsequently make it more 'accurate', by using a passive.
It's a shame, however, that in the REAL world (as opposed to the theoretical one), it didn't quite work out that way, which is why I've returned to the Croft, and now ticked off passives from my 'bucket list' ;)
Marco.
I understand where you are coming from Marco because I used passive preamps for years and was captured by their 'open window' approach when used in a system however there is always a nagging doubt that you are missing something at the expense of the very clean sonics and that became apparent as soon as I popped the Croft 25R into the system. Glorious rich full sound across the frequency spectrum was restored!
Umph is more important than just transparent and open in my book as it adds realism to the music. Just listen to how much umph you get from any instrument or vocal in real life, that is before they are amplified!
Agreed!
...isn't it funny how active fans like the same attributes.
Bigman80
29-09-2017, 18:42
Umph is more important than just transparent and open in my book as it adds realism to the music. Just listen to how much umph you get from any instrument or vocal in real life, that is before they are amplified!Yes! My feeling exactly. Without the impact you're missing out on an aspect of the performance. Still looking forward to hearing your system, Jimbo. I may have a Saturday in a week or so!!!
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Arkless Electronics
29-09-2017, 18:44
Yup, technically, BNCs, XLRs and other connectors, commonly used in professional applications, are superior to RCAs, which I suspect only become the de facto standard in home audio equipment, due to cost and marketing.
Marco.
I won't bother... as you won't be told you are wrong on anything... :ner:
I think this should be the last time I say this or else I'll get a reputation for banging on about it:
A potential divider (that's what a passive preamp is) simply puts the source voltage across two (or more) resistors in series. The ratio of the two resistances determines the two voltages you will get - one voltage across one resistor, the other voltage across the other resistor. Given two equal resistors you will get two equal voltages. Given, say, a 9k resistor and a 1k resistor you will get 10% of the source voltage across one resistor and 90% of the source voltage across the other. The source's signal voltage splits across the two resistors and the signal current flows through both.
How can one resistor not be in the signal path?
What I was attempting to type is that in a shunt attenuator only ONE resistor is directly in the signal path, the 'shunt' resistors bleeding further signal away with each different volume step and doing what I said to the input and output impedances, which I suspect is irrelevant for most decent kit wired through them and certainly for the gear I'm most involved with these days. I maybe misread Marco when he said the shunt resistors were in the signal path and was responding to that comment.
Is that clearer now? Sorry, I've started posting again and don't know why - mumbles off into the far distance again...
Yes! My feeling exactly. Without the impact you're missing out on an aspect of the performance. Still looking forward to hearing your system, Jimbo. I may have a Saturday in a week or so!!!
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Apart from the right amplification (whatever that may be) you can't beat large amounts of power and BIG speakers for impact, sadly both of which I am unable to accommodate in my listening room. However within the constraints of my room I can create some decent impact and a sense of scale especially with the right material.
Yes we must try and get a listening session sorted.:)
Arkless Electronics
29-09-2017, 18:56
What I was attempting to type is that in a shunt attenuator only ONE resistor is directly in the signal path, the 'shunt' resistors bleeding further signal away with each different volume step and doing what I said to the input and output impedances, which I suspect is irrelevant for most decent kit wired through them and certainly for the gear I'm most involved with these days. I maybe misread Marco when he said the shunt resistors were in the signal path and was responding to that comment.
Is that clearer now? Sorry, I've started posting again and don't know why - mumbles off into the far distance again...
It's just as much in the "signal path" as the one that's visually in the signal path!
Agreed - but one needs some appreciation of the current flow in such devices. It is the voltage developed across the shunt resistor that causes current to flow, and that current is the signal.
Interesting that you point out 'umph', whilst a passive can be more transparent and 'open' as you say it comes at a penalty of lacking slam and macro-dynamics compared to an active. So, which is more faithful to the music? You make your choice. I personally miss the 'umph' when I use passives, and I've tried some serious ones. My source has an output impedance of 90R (4R without the output transformers), so is not a bottleneck here.
Umph is more important than just transparent and open in my book as it adds realism to the music. Just listen to how much umph you get from any instrument or vocal in real life, that is before they are amplified!
I tend to agree with both of those views (sonically speaking), as my experience backs it up. However, I prefer to use the term 'DRIVE' than 'umph', when describing what passives lack in comparison with good actives, as I feel it hints better at what might be going on. Interestingly however, LDRs don't suffer from this.
What I would say is that, having heard some superb passives, not least the 'fully Z-Foiled', solid-silver wired dual-mono design I illustrated earlier, Music Firsts, Khozmos, TVCs, not to mention the (modded) Goldpoint, NONE of them sound any more transparent or 'open' than the best actives - and if you think differently, then you probably haven't heard a *truly* superb active! ;)
Marco.
I understand where you are coming from Marco because I used passive preamps for years and was captured by their 'open window' approach when used in a system however there is always a nagging doubt that you are missing something at the expense of the very clean sonics and that became apparent as soon as I popped the Croft 25R into the system. Glorious rich full sound across the frequency spectrum was restored!
Yup, a similar thing happened when I did that with mine :)
What was missing , essentially, was some 'life'....
Marco.
I won't bother... as you won't be told you are wrong on anything... :ner:
Lol - I don't have the slightest problem being told I'm technically wrong, in terms of how something functions, if applicable. Just don't try telling me what I'm hearing is wrong, because your 'science book' dictates that what I'm hearing can't happen... There is a distinct difference! ;)
So are you saying that RCAs aren't an inferior audio connector to, say, XLRs or Cannons? That has always been my understanding, If so then, why?
I might learn something new :)
Marco.
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Ali Tait
29-09-2017, 23:09
I think this should be the last time I say this or else I'll get a reputation for banging on about it:
A potential divider (that's what a passive preamp is) simply puts the source voltage across two (or more) resistors in series. The ratio of the two resistances determines the two voltages you will get - one voltage across one resistor, the other voltage across the other resistor. Given two equal resistors you will get two equal voltages. Given, say, a 9k resistor and a 1k resistor you will get 10% of the source voltage across one resistor and 90% of the source voltage across the other. The source's signal voltage splits across the two resistors and the signal current flows through both.
How can one resistor not be in the signal path?
Putting a signal through a transformer sometimes produces overshoot on transients, clearly seen on a square wave.
http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/Oscillators/images/square-wave-overshoot.gif
This has the effect of apparently enhancing detail on simple music but as you rightly point out can make busy music sound very confused. Overshoot is actually well-damped ringing. Poorly damped ringing is worse and looks like this:
http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/Oscillators/images/square-wave-ringing.gif
Autoformers, not transformers are used in the Slagle.
http://www.intactaudio.com/AVC_wiring.html
Arkless Electronics
30-09-2017, 00:01
Autoformers, not transformers are used in the Slagle.
http://www.intactaudio.com/AVC_wiring.html
Same thing electrically in terms of the info from Andrew there goes....
The transformers used in much sought after studio gear are reputed to be the main source of colourations that results in this vintage (and modern counterpart) gear being so erm... sought after.... Applying the same colourations to everything that goes through it at all times, on replay, rather than a choice for recording a specific vocalist etc when recording it, is another matter of course....
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 06:03
First impressions,
When I upgraded the internal wiring to some very nice silver plated copper, this little FB unit became very good. Good detail good bass extension. If I hadn't heard the GP I wouldn't have been aware I was missing anything. Tonally, this pre amp is very accurate but didn't demonstrate that open window I got when the GP went in. The GP blew all the walls downs and left a wide open soundstage visible and audible. I wasn't sure if the tone was as accurate but holy jiggins, there was so much detail and soundscape that I didn't really mind. In went the AVC and to my delight, that soundscape remains but with true to life tone. True as in what I hear at home on the guitar is what I hear on the record. I haven't been aware of emphasis on leading edges, what I have been aware of is that it delivers the music rather than the music passing through the speaker's. I think it's clarity and drive are responsible for this "leading edge" but attack is necessary to accurately replicate the recording. Personally, the AVC feels more like an active than a passive.
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Jez, would you please have the courtesy to answer the question I asked you on post #183? Don't quote something I've written, and imply I'm wrong (as you did on post #176), and then when asked to explain, ignore me, as it's rather rude....
So, why are the professional connectors I mentioned not technically superior to RCAs, or are you saying that RCAs didn't become the de facto standard, due to costs and marketing? Or both?
It's not a hard question to answer, and if you're right (as this isn't a subjective thing; someone is either right or wrong) , then of course I'll accept that your answer is correct.
Marco.
I suspect Jez will say that as long as the connection is adequate there is nothing more to be gained. And that RCA are adequate.
Given he thinks there is no difference to be had with interconnects it is unlikely he thinks there are gains to be made in the connectors they use...
Well, if that's the case, then why bother engaging me like that, as it's not liable to go anywhere... :rolleyes:
I wasn't necessarily talking about sonically; I was thinking more technically, as in if XLRs or Cannons offered a more reliable/durable connection, simply due to their physical construction.
And that still doesn't address the matter of why RCAs have become commonplace on home audio equipment, instead of the likes of the above.
I'm afraid that Jez can't just jump onto threads, imply that I'm wrong, and then when asked to explain, ignore me. If that's what's going to happen, then he should just ignore what I've written in the first place!
Marco.
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 08:06
Well, if that's the case, then why bother engaging me like that, as it's not liable to go anywhere... :rolleyes:
I wasn't necessarily talking about sonically; I was thinking more technically, as in if XLRs or Cannons offered a more reliable/durable connection, simply due to their physical construction.
And that still doesn't address the matter of why RCAs have become commonplace on home audio equipment, instead of the likes of the above.
I'm afraid that Jez can't just jump onto threads, imply that I'm wrong, and then when asked to explain, ignore me. If that's what's going to happen, then he should just ignore what I've written in the first place!
Marco.
There is more support for the use of different connections both sonically and technically. SMA connections and pre made cables being muted as preferable to anything hifi due to their extensive use for RF
Looks like an interesting experiment for someone!
In went the AVC and to my delight, that soundscape remains but with true to life tone. True as in what I hear at home on the guitar is what I hear on the record.
Glad you're enjoying the AVC. It's a good bit of kit, but are you saying that it offers the same "open window" effect or "rez" (to coin a phrase from Jerry), as the GP? If so, that's an area where we'll have to differ, as I thought the GP was markedly better in that area.
As you know, hi-fi is all about trade-offs; it's rare that you get your cake AND eat it, so you may have to trade some "rez"/'open-window effect' for accurate tone and leading-edge definition, in your quest for the 'ultimate' preamp :)
Marco.
SMA connections and pre made cables being muted as preferable to anything hifi due to their extensive use for RF
Sorry mate, I don't understand what you mean :scratch:
Marco.
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 08:23
These are highly rated on the internet for use in audio
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170930/bd970ec72e98895849a6839214a9f6ae.jpg
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Bigman80
30-09-2017, 08:25
Glad you're enjoying the AVC. It's a good bit of kit, but are you saying that it offers the same "open window" effect or "rez" (to coin a phrase from Jerry), as the GP? If so, that's an area where we'll have to differ, as I thought the GP was markedly better in that area.
As you know, hi-fi is all about trade-offs; it's rare that you get your cake AND eat it, so you may have to trade some "rez"/'open-window effect' for accurate tone and leading-edge definition, in your quest for the 'ultimate' preamp :)
Marco.Yes mate, the GP had higher resolution but the AVC is not far behind. The tonal accuracy is a larger difference. It's a difficult choice. One I won't make in a hurry!
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These are highly rated on the internet for use in audio
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170930/bd970ec72e98895849a6839214a9f6ae.jpg
Ah I see... It was you writing "being muted", rather than 'mooted', that threw me! ;)
Jez still needs to answer my question, though.
Marco.
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 08:29
Ah I see... It was your "being muted", rather than 'mooted', that threw me! ;)
Marco.Oh, lol sorry I've been up very early after very little sleep hahaha. [emoji42]
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Heh-heh... I was trying to work out how connectors could 'mute' anything. Don't worry, I'm not awake yet myself (had a late listening sesh until nearly 2am this morning)!
Marco.
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 09:02
Ha, sound like fun mate, I finished work at 22:00 and was back in at 07:30 for 12 hours. Knackered.
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I suspect Jez was a) at the pub so didn't reply and b) meaning that balanced connection offers no advantages over single ended in a domestic situation.
I also agree with Jimbo's assessment of passive and active preamps. I added a little Yaqin valve buffer to my Alps black passive and found the extra body I was looking for albeit at the expense of some of the passive's virtues. Still preferable though and more enjoyable than any active's I've heard to date.
The problem with active preamps is getting a good one at a reasonable price. I can't understand why they are so expensive, the component costs are tiny compared to say an equally priced valve power amp.
Never heard a TVC or AVC :(
These are highly rated on the internet for use in audio
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170930/bd970ec72e98895849a6839214a9f6ae.jpg
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
SMA style connectors as shown were designed to handle RF signals up to 18GHz, and were never intended to be used at audio frequencies.
They can of course be used for audio: occupying almost the same space as an RCA connector; have the advantage of being locked (that is, the outer connector is threaded and the connection is made by screwing the plug onto the socket), but the centre conductor is fragile and SMA connectors are not intended for repeated mating and demating.
I know of only one audio equipment manufacturer who used to use these connectors, and has now replaced them with RCAs.
Firebottle
30-09-2017, 10:13
Blimey, I've only been away for a day and there's a shedload of posts!
Here is a suggestion Oliver, this will be of interest to many I would think.
To really compare the GP, and possibly add some drive, follow it directly with an active preamp.
I'll bring my KIN around and we can set it with the volume control at maximum so it's straight in to the active line stage.
:D
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 10:14
SMA style connectors as shown were designed to handle RF signals up to 18GHz, and were never intended to be used at audio frequencies.
They can of course be used for audio: occupying almost the same space as an RCA connector; have the advantage of being locked (that is, the outer connector is threaded and the connection is made by screwing the plug onto the socket), but the centre conductor is fragile and SMA connectors are not intended for repeated mating and demating.
I know of only one audio equipment manufacturer who used to use these connectors, and has now replaced them with RCAs.I'm hoping for a long term solution with very little to no disturbances. They could be the answer.
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Ali Tait
30-09-2017, 10:18
I think there is an important point being missed here - the Slagles are only 200 dollars!
How much have you spent on the GP Marco?
walpurgis
30-09-2017, 10:22
I'm hoping for a long term solution with very little to no disturbances. They could be the answer.
Sounds like 'an answer looking for a problem' Oliver. Decent RCA phono plugs are just fine. Some don't like them, but they work.
Even the metal they are made from is less critical than many suppose. If the conductor cross section and plug/socket contact area is adequate and clean, the plugs will perform just fine.
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 10:26
Ok. I suppose it is really.
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Hi John,
I suspect Jez was a) at the pub so didn't reply and b) meaning that balanced connection offers no advantages over single ended in a domestic situation.
Firstly, if you scroll back, you'll see he replied to Ali Tait, at just after 1am, whilst ignoring both my previous post and the one 'popcorning' him.
Therefore, he'd clearly returned from the pub by then, and I consider him ignoring that as rude, because unless he was blind, he'd have at least seen the post above Ali's (184) with the 'popcorn' emoticons, and so could've responded to me, after having done so to Ali...
Secondly, if what you say is correct about balanced connection, then a) that wasn't the point I was making in the first place, and b) it wasn't at all obvious from his response, implying that I was wrong. Wrong about what, exactly? That's the bit we still don't know!
The problem with active preamps is getting a good one at a reasonable price. I can't understand why they are so expensive, the component costs are tiny compared to say an equally priced valve power amp.
Well, if we take my Croft as an example, first of all, large (over-specced), individually, fully-regulated PSUs, for different parts of the circuit, and the bits required to make all that work, aren't cheap. And that's a MAJOR reason why the best active preamps sound how they do. Good PSU arrangements (to minimise, and virtually eradicate noise) are just so vital, IME, to how (active) hi-fi equipment performs.
Secondly, top-quality 'boutique' [I'm not a big fan of that term, but I'll use it here] components also aren't cheap, such as the best stepped attenuators, caps, resistors, etc, all of which can contribute significantly to the sound.
And last, but by no means least, is the ingenuity and effectiveness of the circuit itself, even before any of the above comes into play, and how successfully it succeeds in maintaining the integrity of the input signal. Therefore when you combine all of that, including the labour involved to put it all together, especially if you want to house the finished product in an attractive, tactile looking case, you can see how it all adds up!
Quite simply, it would be commercially impossible to produce a profitable preamplifier, sold through dealers, which ticked all the boxes above, for any less than about £10k. Unless that is, you're someone like Glenn Croft, who doesn't operate on the same margins as other commercial manufacturers, and so sells these types of preamps (to order) for considerably less.
Marco.
Sounds like 'an answer looking for a problem' Oliver. Decent RCA phono plugs are just fine. Some don't like them, but they work.
Even the metal they are made from is less critical than many suppose. If the conductor cross section and plug/socket contact area is adequate and clean, the plugs will perform just fine.
I'm inclined to agree but I have read somewhere that the percentage of an RCA plug body that actually makes contact with the socket is about 1%. Which is concerning if true. I mean it is never going to make a huge difference, but I don't wonder that all these little things add up. I'm of the opinion that if something is sub-optimal but can be made optimal for little expense and effort, then it is worth making it optimal.
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 10:37
I think there is an important point being missed here - the Slagles are only 200 dollars!
How much have you spent on the GP Marco?You're quite right there, Ali. I seem to remember the FS ad quoting £650. It's Probably twice the price if you factor in the pots and casing etc although I suspect the donor unit cost a fair bit judging by the construction.
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I think there is an important point being missed here - the Slagles are only 200 dollars!
How much have you spent on the GP Marco?
Indeed, and of course that has to be considered. The Slagle is a major bargain, and ticks all the important 'SPPV boxes'. Do you know where it was made (in which country)?
The biggest compliment I can pay the Slagle, is that it would've TROUNCED the Goldpoint, in stock form, which was more than double its price!! ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
30-09-2017, 10:49
I'm inclined to agree but I have read somewhere that the percentage of an RCA plug body that actually makes contact with the socket is about 1%. Which is concerning if true. I mean it is never going to make a huge difference, but I don't wonder that all these little things add up. I'm of the opinion that if something is sub-optimal but can be made optimal for little expense and effort, then it is worth making it optimal.
All plug/socket interfaces are a compromise, as no metal surface is truly even. For example, just run a high precision dial gauge across a carefully machined or ground steel plate and irregularities can be found.
I'm of the opinion that if something is sub-optimal but can be made optimal for little expense and effort, then it is worth making it optimal.
I'm both a perfectionist and 'completist', so if when I'm modding something, I've already gone to the trouble and expense of fitting the best internal components, then the external ones will simply be subjected to the same treatment, otherwise the 'What if?' demon would continue to haunt me! ;)
Also, assessing the individual sonic effect (if any) of all these things, provides valuable learning experience, which for me is what hi-fi is all about, as you can't comment with authority on anything, unless you've actually tried it :)
Marco.
Sounds like 'an answer looking for a problem' Oliver. Decent RCA phono plugs are just fine. Some don't like them, but they work.
Even the metal they are made from is less critical than many suppose. If the conductor cross section and plug/socket contact area is adequate and clean, the plugs will perform just fine.
Yes - SMA connectors are made of brass gold-plated. As such they are not intended for repeated mates and de-mates, as the plating quickly wears through. Also at radio frequencies the skin depth is small (~ 3um at 1GHz) so virtually all of the current will flow through the gold. At udio frequencies the skin depth is much larger (~2.25mm at 1KHz), so now most of the current flows through brass. There is also a limit to the size of cable that can be fitted to them. (I think RG58CU is the largest diameter cable that can be readily used with them, though cables using specialised larger diameter cable (such s those using Gortex dielectric) are available from specialist RF cable manufacturers.
I see no advantage in using SMA connectors over RCA types. One would have to go to the trouble of replacing the chassis RCA sockets with SMAs on all your equipment. Best stick to good quality RCAs IMO.
My understanding is that XLR connectors are better than RCA for long cable runs, but that this advantage is limited for the 1m cables that most of us use (well, I do anyway). Lockable connectors avoid the danger of shorting caused by accidentally yanking out a cable, when moving kit for example. In any event, RCA has become the de facto standard for audio, even if it's (slightly) sub-optimal. (See Betamax vs VHS for comparison).
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 11:00
Blimey, I've only been away for a day and there's a shedload of posts!
Here is a suggestion Oliver, this will be of interest to many I would think.
To really compare the GP, and possibly add some drive, follow it directly with an active preamp.
I'll bring my KIN around and we can set it with the volume control at maximum so it's straight in to the active line stage.
:DWhat would that do, Alan or highlight? I have no idea about this sort of thing lol
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walpurgis
30-09-2017, 11:04
What would that do, Alan or highlight? I have no idea about this sort of thing
Act as a buffer?
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 11:05
Act as a buffer?What would a buffer do? Honestly I'm not thick lol. I've not been into hi-fi that long so this sort of stuff is all new
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I see no advantage in using SMA connectors over RCA types. One would have to go to the trouble of replacing the chassis RCA sockets with SMAs on all your equipment. Best stick to good quality RCAs IMO.
Yet, Barry, you actively seek not to on your own equipment, and to my knowledge have a preference for using equipment fitted with connectors used in professional applications...? ;)
Take SMA connectors out of the equation. What about the likes of Cannons or XLRs (leaving aside the balanced thing), or whatever your favourite connectors and sockets are?
IMO, and I'm sure I've heard you say it before, these offer a more robust and reliable connection than RCAs, which you're on record as saying you consider as inferior in comprison, in that respect.
*That* is the point I was making earlier to Oliver, which Jez came in and stamped on with his big size 12s, not anything to do with 'sonics'.....
Although, that aside, my suspicion is that for those reasons they *could* also improve SQ, due to (as I understand it) them offering a greater contact area, and which may result in maintaining superior signal integrity. That's the subjective bit!
Marco.
My understanding is that XLR connectors are better than RCA for long cable runs, but that this advantage is limited for the 1m cables that most of us use (well, I do anyway).
Indeed, Joe. But I'm talking *specifically* about the plugs and sockets, and how effectively they 'mate' together on equipment, when forming a connection. Nothing to do with the partnering cable. If you've ever used XLRs, in that respect, and compared them with RCAs, you'll be well aware that there appears to be no comparison.
And for me, knowing that in hi-fi how everything matters, even just a little bit, that's likely to impact *some* way on the sound. I'd certainly love to test it subjectively sometime!
RCA has become the de facto standard for audio, even if it's (slightly) sub-optimal. (See Betamax vs VHS for comparison).
Yes, and remember what happened there? VHS was rather more than "(slightly) sub-optimal"; it was grossly inferior.... Which ably proves that what's often claimed in audio as being the 'latest and greatest', and afterwards adopted universally, isn't always that! ;)
I suspect that RCAs fall into that category.
Marco.
I'm inclined to agree but I have read somewhere that the percentage of an RCA plug body that actually makes contact with the socket is about 1%. Which is concerning if true. I mean it is never going to make a huge difference, but I don't wonder that all these little things add up. I'm of the opinion that if something is sub-optimal but can be made optimal for little expense and effort, then it is worth making it optimal.
In most electrical contacts the actual amount of contact area is about 10 - 15% of the available contact area. It is accepted good engineering practice when joining electric busbars that the overlap length is 6 -10x the thickness of the busbar.
Yet, Barry, you actively seek not to on your own equipment, and to my knowledge have a preference for using equipment fitted with connectors used in professional applications...? ;)
Take SMA connectors out of the equation. What about the likes of Cannons or XLRs (leaving aside the balanced thing), or whatever your favourite connectors and sockets are?
IMO, and I'm sure I've heard you say it before, these offer a more robust and reliable connection than RCAs, which you're on record as saying you consider as inferior in comprison, in that respect.
*That* is the point I was making earlier to Oliver, which Jez came in and stamped on with his big size 12s, not anything to do with 'sonics'.....
Although, that aside, my suspicion is that they *could* also improve SQ, due to (as I understand it) them having a greater contact area, and which may result in superior signal integrity.
Marco.
It is true that I think the RCA phono to be a 'poor little thing', but it has become the de facto industry standard and is fit for purpose. Personally I would prefer to see BNC or CAMAC connectors used but they are expensive and it is not obvious if they offer any improvement in SQ.
My attraction to XLR connectors is entirely due to my interest in using balanced-line interconnects. The fact that they are used on professional equipment just adds to my confidence in using them: very little professional audio gear use RCAs.
It is true that I think the RCA phono to be a 'poor little thing', but it has become the de facto industry standard and is fit for purpose. Personally I would prefer to see BNC or CAMAC connectors used but they are expensive and it is not obvious if they offer any improvement in SQ.
Thanks, I agree, and *that* is the point I was making, specifically the bit in bold. It may be "fit for purpose", but that doesn't mean it's optimal. And if I can, I prefer optimal! If they're avoidable, I simply don't like making compromises.
Therefore, I'd argue that if the equipment we used was fitted instead with BNC and/or CAMAC connectors, to use your preferences as an example, not only would we be offered a more robust and reliable connection, with the cables we choose, but perhaps also superior sound :)
Marco.
RothwellAudio
30-09-2017, 11:43
What I was attempting to type is that in a shunt attenuator only ONE resistor is directly in the signal path...
Yes, I know what you were saying. That's exactly the misconception I was was trying to refute.
It's just as much in the "signal path" as the one that's visually in the signal path!
Thank you :wave: I thought I was pi$$ing in the wind.
Agreed - but one needs some appreciation of the current flow in such devices. It is the voltage developed across the shunt resistor that causes current to flow, and that current is the signal.
Again, thank you.
I thought my post #126 illustrated quite clearly how TVCs can give the impression of extra detail through "enhanced" leading edges, but it looks like I was definitely pi$$ing the wind there - totally ignored while people discuss the relative merits of different brands of RCA connectors instead :doh:
Firebottle
30-09-2017, 12:10
In most electrical contacts the actual amount of contact area is about 10 - 15% of the available contact area. It is accepted good engineering practice when joining electric busbars that the overlap length is 6 -10x the thickness of the busbar.
Yes and the bolts tightened up very tight.
The largest rectifier current I had any involvement with was 8000 Amps :eek:
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 12:21
Well, to move the topic on slightly now we all agree lol,
The KIN is going to be representing the Active Preamp side of things after next week to see how that affects things. Personally, my favourite is the AVC so far. A very slight sound stage compromise but that's about it. More listening to do but that won't be next week.
SO,
What is the ideal preamp? Links to existing models regardless of price. where is the standard bearer?
Ali Tait
30-09-2017, 12:32
Indeed, and of course that has to be considered. The Slagle is a major bargain, and ticks all the important 'SPPV boxes'. Do you know where it was made (in which country)?
The biggest compliment I can pay the Slagle, is that it would've TROUNCED the Goldpoint, in stock form, which was more than double its price!! ;)
Marco.
The US Marco.
I thought my post #126 illustrated quite clearly how TVCs can give the impression of extra detail through "enhanced" leading edges, but it looks like I was definitely pi$$ing the wind there - totally ignored while people discuss the relative merits of different brands of RCA connectors instead :doh:
Not at all, Andrew. Although I haven't directly replied to your post, I've already stated a few times that I can clearly hear how TVCs colour the sound, but in a pleasant/musical sounding way, a part of which you've just outlined.
I'm in full agreement :)
But then, *every* piece of equipment or cable (and speakers) is coloured to some degree, so I guess all we can do, in the final analysis, is choose our 'favourite colour', or rather the distortion that we're able to live with the most...
Marco.
The US Marco.
Amazing they can produce it for that. I suspect that the Chinese are involved somewhere! ;)
Marco.
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 12:57
Amazing they can produce it for that. I suspect that the Chinese are involved somewhere! ;)
Marco.
Reading the website doesn't suggest so, Marco. Hand wound by the man himself. Unless he sources parts?
The KIN is going to be representing the Active Preamp side of things after next week to see how that affects things. Personally, my favourite is the AVC so far. A very slight sound stage compromise but that's about it. More listening to do but that won't be next week.
Make sure you also compare the KIN directly with the AVC, both used on their own as the system's preamp.
I'd expect the KIN to be notably better! And when you suss out why, you'll 'get' why passives [at ANY price] are ultimately more compromised than the best active designs, especially when valves have been used judiciously in their design... ;)
What is the ideal preamp? Links to existing models regardless of price. where is the standard bearer?
Doesn't exist. It's all down to using your OWN ears and judgement. I've never understood why folks need a "standard bearer", or in hi-fi magazine terms, a "Best Buy five-star Winner", or any other such bollox...
That's for mindless lazy-arses, who don't trust their own ears and simply want to be TOLD what to buy, which I'm sure isn't you! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Reading the website doesn't suggest so, Marco. Hand wound by the man himself. Unless he sources parts?
Yup, and you's think those must come from China. Nothing wrong with that, but it'd explain the price.
Marco.
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 13:04
Make sure you also compare the KIN directly with the AVC, both used on their own as the system's preamp. I'd expect the KIN to be notably better! And when you suss out why, you'll 'get' why passives [at any price] are ultimately more compromised than the best active designs, especially when valves have been used judiciously in their design... ;)
Doesn't exist. It's all down to using your own judgement. I've never understood why folks need a "standard bearer", or in hi-fi magazine terms, a "Best Buy five-star Winner"...
That's for mindless lazy-arses, who don't trust their own ears and simply want to be TOLD what to buy, which I'm sure isn't you! :eyebrows:
Marco.Fair enough lol, im not lazy haha
Will do all the combos possible mate, it'll be very thorough.
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Bigman80
30-09-2017, 13:08
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0611/slagle_autoformer_volume_control_modules.htm
"Dave Slagle's goal was to offer an affordable inductive volume control that measures really well, is easy to install, and provides sufficiently fine volume steps. It makes much more technical sense to use an auto transformer (aka autoformer) for this application. Since there's no need to isolate the primary and secondary windings, and both windings may be grounded, it is perfectly fine to combine the primary and secondary into a single winding. That's exactly what McIntosh has been doing for decades with their output transformer based solid-state amplifiers. Dave uses an 80% nickel core for increased permeability. As far as the switch, production has recently shifted from the British Lorlin to an Alpha switch made in China for improved reliability. Dave says that he really wanted to keep the thing US and Euro made but sadly the Lorlin switches were causing 1 in 10 pair to come back to with issues. While the original and cheaper modules ($200) were apparently a royal pain to wire up, the new AVC module only requires a three-wire hookup per channel, In, Out, and Ground, much like a conventional pot. Dave would like to give credit and special thanks to Bent Audio's John Chapman for his help in designing the current circuit boards."
Fair enough lol, im not lazy haha
Will do all the combos possible mate, it'll be very thorough.
No worries. I was being slightly facetious in my precious post, and that's mostly because all you'll likely get is a list of ones folks here use, or ones they *think* might be good, as they've read about them in a magazine - all based on their individual bias and preferences, which at the end of the day, may not be yours!
So what real good would it do? This is where you have to do the proper homework yourself. By all means consider any recommendations given, but it's really up to you to do the necessary research, then try some stuff out you think ticks the right boxes, and see how it goes.
*That* is how you both a) learn in a beneficial way, and b) build a hi-fi system, truly fit for YOU, rather than simply a copycat version of that belonging to others, and one that hopefully you'll enjoy and will last you a long time!
Quite simply, if you do things that way, you'll likely make fewer mistakes and save a heap of money in the long term :)
Marco.
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 13:26
No worries. I was being slightly facetious in my precious post, and that's mostly because all you'll likely get is a list of ones folks here use, or ones they *think* might be good, as they've read about them in a magazine - all based on their individual bias and preferences, which at the end of the day, may not be yours!
So what real good would it do? This is where you have to do the proper homework yourself. By all means consider any recommendations given, but it's really up to you to do the necessary research, then try some stuff out you think ticks the right boxes, and see how it goes.
*That* is how you both a) learn in a beneficial way, and b) build a hi-fi system, truly fit for YOU, rather than simply a copycat version of that belonging to others, and one that hopefully you'll enjoy and will last you a long time!
Quite simply, if you do things that way, you'll likely make fewer mistakes and save a heap of money in the long term :)
Marco.
No worries, Marco. It was taken in good spirits.
All combos will be tried with much scrutiny. I'm interested to see is any colouration is present and how it affects the sound. Also, the KIN has a Alps blue which has already been bettered by the stepped attentuator (shamans) and the AVC (ALi's) i'd love to drop a stepped attenuater in the FB and see what difference that makes. One for the future maybe.
walpurgis
30-09-2017, 13:45
What would a buffer do? Honestly I'm not thick lol. I've not been into hi-fi that long so this sort of stuff is all new
Here's a review of the original Musical Fidelity X10-D, which sums up what a buffer offers.
https://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/873/index.html
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 13:52
Here's a review of the original Musical Fidelity X10-D, which sums up what a buffer offers.
https://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/873/index.html
ah, now i understand.
walpurgis
30-09-2017, 14:25
ah, now i understand.
Good little gizmo the X10-D. They do have their uses. I have two, one in use at the moment with the CD replay side of things (it just works! :)) and another that needs the two valves replacing and a once over. Must get around to having a look at it actually.
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 14:26
My CD player is basically redundant again lol. I wouldn't put one on The vinyl side though.
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Arkless Electronics
30-09-2017, 14:37
I don't think that Stereophile article explains what a buffer is very well at all.
A buffer is a device with a very high input impedance and low output impedance. There is one in one form or another at the output of virtually all pre amps, phono stages, CD players, DACS etc etc. It has no voltage gain but lots of power gain ie it doesn't amplify the signal but it does make it much more powerful. They are also called Voltage Followers as the output follows the input in voltage. A silly analogy, imagine Volts were speed... it's still doing 10MPH but before it was a toy sail boat doing 10MPH and which would be stopped or slowed by the slightest friction... after the buffer it's still doing 10MPH because the voltage hasn't been amplified... but now it could drag a tree at 10MPH.
Suppose we have a source with a high output impedance like 10K. If we were to try and drive a 10K passive it would form a potential divider with the output impedance of the source and therefore the output of the source would be halved by the presence of the passive even when set to full volume!
I is important to note that just because a buffer has a very low output impedance doesn't mean it can actually drive very low impedance loads! It implies this yes but without the current to back it up we would get lots of distortion. It can be designed to give all the current one could want of course and in fact the output stage of a SS power amp is almost always a buffer! Usually it's just designed to have more than enough for the intended use though.
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 14:59
I don't think that Stereophile article explains what a buffer is very well at all.
A buffer is a device with a very high input impedance and low output impedance. There is one in one form or another at the output of virtually all pre amps, phono stages, CD players, DACS etc etc. It has no voltage gain but lots of power gain ie it doesn't amplify the signal but it does make it much more powerful. They are also called Voltage Followers as the output follows the input in voltage. A silly analogy, imagine Volts were speed... it's still doing 10MPH but before it was a toy sail boat doing 10MPH and which would be stopped or slowed by the slightest friction... after the buffer it's still doing 10MPH because the voltage hasn't been amplified... but now it could drag a tree at 10MPH.
Suppose we have a source with a high output impedance like 10K. If we were to try and drive a 10K passive it would form a potential divider with the output impedance of the source and therefore the output of the source would be halved by the presence of the passive even when set to full volume!
I is important to note that just because a buffer has a very low output impedance doesn't mean it can actually drive very low impedance loads! It implies this yes but without the current to back it up we would get lots of distortion. It can be designed to give all the current one could want of course and in fact the output stage of a SS power amp is almost always a buffer! Usually it's just designed to have more than enough for the intended use though.Very good Jez. I definitely understand now. Why use valves then?
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Arkless Electronics
30-09-2017, 15:22
Very good Jez. I definitely understand now. Why use valves then?
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Purely to placate plonkers who think valves are automatically better and to gain more sales from exploiting this assumption. It's quite prevalent... think of all the CD players and DAC's which advertise "valve buffered". Transistors are vastly better as buffers but as 99.99% of buffers have 100% negative feedback they are intrinsically very linear (low distortion) by nature and even a valve one will commonly give <0.01% distortion plus bandwidth of DC to a MHz or more. In many ways the greatest figure of merit for a device is its transconductance. The higher the transconductance the lower the output impedance when used as a buffer. Transistors (BJT's) are orders of magnitude better than valves in transconductance.
Bigman80
30-09-2017, 15:22
Ok, so go valves then [emoji23]
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Jez, I've been very patient, but that patience has now run out...
Understand, that ignoring me is NOT an option, so do not make any further posts to the forum until you address my earlier question on this thread.
Ta!
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
30-09-2017, 17:41
Jez, I've been very patient, but that patience has now run out...
Understand, that ignoring me is NOT an option, so do not make any further posts to the forum until you address my earlier question on this thread.
Ta!
Marco.
You're taking the piss now Marco. You can't force people to enter debates! I don't wish to discuss connectors with you as no matter what I say, based on decades of electronic engineering experience and knowledge, you will say something like "I believe I can hear the difference between a BNC and phono plug and I don't care what it says in your Johnnies book of physics" or something to that effect.
You have on many occasions admitted having very little knowledge of electronics. In spite of this you believe you can argue electronics with a professional in the field by shutting down any discussion with the old "I believe I can hear it and I trust my ears" ploy. Incredibly, you've even on several occasions questioned the validity of the laws of physics if they go against your argument!!:eek:
In any "debate" with you the options are basically:
1/ Let Marco win.
2/ Give Marco some get out so he appears at least partially correct.
3/ Leave the debate. This last one appears no longer an option....
4/ One is so certain of ones facts that one would stake one's life on it so decide to not back down, no matter what, as a matter of principle.... then expect to be told to "STFU or get a holiday/be banned for life"
I believe you would in fact enter a debate with Professor Stephen Hawkings on the subjects of black holes or quantum entanglement and still never concede that he's proved you wrong on any single aspect of the subject:doh:
Once you had started with something like "I believe phono plugs are sub optimal and BNC's sound better", there is, as I am only too aware, nothing that I or anyone else could say that would result in you changing that to "now its been explained I can see that phonos are perfectly adequate for audio and there is indeed nothing to be gained by moving to BNC's"
Sometimes I get sick of the game and don't want to play.... I hope you find that a satisfactory explanation.
You're taking the piss now Marco. You can't force people to enter debates!
if im totally honest i thought that was a bit rich as well!
You're taking the piss now Marco. You can't force people to enter debates!
*I'M* taking the piss??? :doh::doh:
Who was the one who came in and said I was wrong? So, YOU were the one instigating a debate. I wasn't forcing you to do anything, other than explain to me why I was wrong!!
Then when repeatedly pressed to explain why, you just ignored me......! :rolleyes:
*THAT* is what actually happened, not what you've 'imagined' instead, and if you scroll back and read the posts concerned, you'll see that for yourself. Furthermore, I'm not attempting to argue electronics with you. That's only in your head!
If you had actually read what I wrote properly in the first place (rather than jumping in with both feet, with your usual crassly absolutist statements), then you'd have noticed that I wasn't talking about 'sonics'; I was talking about the physical properties of each plug and how they've been engineered, in terms of offering the most secure and reliable connection.
Therefore, you've COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTOOD what I wrote, and I would like you to acknowledge that.
You need to understand that if you're going to tell me I'm wrong, and I press you to explain why, then you either do so, or don't bother telling me I'm wrong. It's that simple. You can't provoke a reaction from me, then run off when you get one!
Because I simply will not tolerate being rudely ignored. I have no problem whatsoever with being wrong, but if someone tells me that, then I insist on them explaining precisely why, not running off and refusing to play anymore, because they now regret what they've started!!
The rest of your 'rant' makes a complete mockery of the truth, so isn't even worth acknowledging, although the sheer hypocrisy [and comedy] of you stating that *I'm* the one who won't accept he's ever wrong, certainly won't have been lost on those reading who know full well what you're like!
Marco.
if im totally honest i thought that was a bit rich as well!
Yes, that's because you've also misunderstood what's happened. I suggest that you read what I've just posted, for the facts of the matter.
Marco.
so do not make any further posts to the forum until you address my earlier question on this thread.
Ta!
Marco.
my comment was referring to this,im not sure how i could misunderstand it?
Because I won't be rudely ignored like that. Therefore, when I ask someone what I consider is an important question, especially when it involves them telling me I'm supposedly wrong, I expect them to have the courtesy to reply and explain.
Normally, I wouldn't be so insistent, but Jez seems to be under the misapprehension that he can come onto threads, make absolutist statements like he did, and there will be no repercussions. I'm afraid he's in cloud-cuckoo land if he does!
Marco.
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