The Usual Rega too fast problem

[bbbiker800]

Yes I know this is the old chestnut and older Regas were guilty but, on a 2014 Rega RP3 I reckon 34.3RPM is too fast. I only decided to test it as over the last few months as I'd noted a couple of albums did sound a tad too 'hurried' and the last one - yesterday - was Paul Simon Graceland which forced me to check.

'Measured' with a SmartPhone RPM app it actually fluctuates between a range of 34.1 to 34.4 but is averaging for the most part 34.3. Which is surprisingly 3%.

So, I've carefully removed the white belt and cleaned it with a new fine microfibre cloth plus sub-platter and pulley. After drying it I used a tiny amount of talc on the belt and retested with the phone in 2 different positions each time - same result. 34.3 (3% fast). Note that I don't have a TTPSU.

I'm not convinced strobing it with the needle in the groove will show a significant reduction. Its possible another belt might help (some forums reckon the Edwards belt) but could this be a motor issue ? I had the motor swapped by a Rega Dealer (esteemed) due to noise within a couple of months. This one was a lot better but its always been audible and especially so with the lid down (I never use it like that). Anyhow, I'm assuming the warranty has expired so thats a dead-end.

Views anyone ?

thanks in advance Richard.

[spendorman]

I don't know the deck, but to slow it down, how about the old lamp in series trick? Needs to be done safely of course.

[bbbiker800]

Thanks Alex; no I'd not heard of that one before. But it's not one I fancy tbh. Besides, my wife will say I'm risking burning the house down :lol:
Actually I thought I'd lost the Rega black belt but just found it. I might try it but it's probably not a fix.

[spendorman]

I would hesitate to reduce the diameter of the motor spindle. The series lamp is worth a try if you can do it safely.

[rubber duck]

I've had two older Planars and they both ran fast. Stereophile has also measured and noted this with more recent models. The only reason I still run a Rega in my second system is because it has the older motor that allows me to use a speed controller so that my records play at exactly 33.3. I would love to hear Rega offer a solution to this instead of the usual denial that it is a problem.

[sq225917]

The motor speed runs on mains frequency, not voltage. Either pulley is too big, belt too thick or too tight, subplatter too small or yours mains frequency too high.

It's the belt.

[alphaGT]

Wait a minute! An RPM app? This is a new one on me? What's the name of it? I want it!

But one thing is possible, the phone app may not be accurate. Unless you have something you know is turning at a certain speed to check it by, I use a SPL app, and a distance app, and both are flawed. Good estimates but not perfect.

An aftermarket speed controller would be a definite cure. Or sell the deck and buy something else?


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[JimC]

You can check the Mains Frequency here.............................

http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm

Jim.

[rubber duck]

Yes, mains frequency will affect speed, which is why my decks are always plugged into my AC regenerator locked onto 50Hz. But this did not make a difference with the Regas I've owned.

[bbbiker800]

Wait a minute! An RPM app? This is a new one on me? What's the name of it? I want it!

But one thing is possible, the phone app may not be accurate. Unless you have something you know is turning at a certain speed to check it by, I use a SPL app, and a distance app, and both are flawed. Good estimates but not perfect.

An aftermarket speed controller would be a definite cure. Or sell the deck and buy something else?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hi Alpha - Its an Android appl in Playstore; called RPM Calculator. Place your phone on the platter (with stylus guard in place !), start the app and reset it then spin up the turntable. I placed my phone in different positions and the answer is the same whatever. Agree the appl might not be accurate but it is consistent but who really knows !..... although, I could use an old Strobe and I may do that for another reference. An aftermarket speed controller might well be a fix but it would cost $$$ and if that is the answer then I need another deck.

Cheers, Richard

[rubber duck]

I think the phone apps only provide an average reading and won't tell you if the speed is constant. You'll probably be much better off looking at a strobe provided you're using a battery operated strobe light, or are certain your mains frequency is 50Hz. I'm not sure if any of the after market speed controllers would work with the new 24v motor. Whether you should get a new deck depends on how much you like the Rega sound.

[bbbiker800]

Forgot to thank those suggesting the mains frequency idea. My thinking is, that I receive the mains supply 'as-is' and unless i use a device to control/regulate it then I can't affect it and if I have a defective motor then that's not going to fix it. Plus a device would be expensive.

It would be interesting to know whether anyone has experience of how Rega motors age (I have the newer kind) and what they tend to do - go slower or faster ?.

By the way; installed the original Black belt - its still fast but dropped to 34.1 RPM. It would seem obvious that I need to try another belt and if that doesn't bring it back down to what it should be then its back to a Rega dealer for a test and new motor.

But, I'll get another belt and report back.

But still interested in feedback !!!!

Cheers everyone

[alphaGT]

That's right Richard, the 50 Hz coming into the house should never fluctuate. Most of your digital alarm clocks get their timing feed from the frequency coming in the power cable. And most speed controllers work by altering that frequency, while the voltage stays the same.


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[dave2010]

The motor speed runs on mains frequency, not voltage. Either pulley is too big, belt too thick or too tight, subplatter too small or yours mains frequency too high.

It's the belt.I don't see how it can be the belt. The main variables for belt driven turntables are the sizes of the drive pulley and the subplattter - plus the mains frequency. The only factor the belt could bring in would be some amount of friction which would slow the system down, but most motors should compensate for that. Some belt driven systems rely on a fairly "loose" belt to isolate the motor from the turntable platter, and then rely on the mass of the turntable to keep things up to speed - and such systems may take a second or two to get going. I would expect belt driven systems to run slower than specified rather than faster - either due to belt slippage, or to lack of sufficient built up angular momentum to keep the turntable speed up.

[bbbiker800]

So now I've installed an Edwards Blue belt - its still fast but dropped to a fluctuating 33.9_34.0 Rpm. So better but still way off. Time to talk to Rega about the motor methinks.

Thanks for all the ideas guys.

[bbbiker800]

So now I've installed an Edwards Blue belt - its still fast but dropped to a fluctuating 33.9_34.0 Rpm. So better but still way off. Time to talk to Rega about the motor methinks.

Thanks for all the ideas guys.

[sq225917]

A thicker belt sits on a wider part if the pulley groove. Thicker belt sees a bigger pulley. Simple.

[Marco]

So now I've installed an Edwards Blue belt - its still fast but dropped to a fluctuating 33.9_34.0 Rpm. So better but still way off. Time to talk to Rega about the motor methinks.

Thanks for all the ideas guys.

Or better still, sell it and buy a direct-drive, then worry no longer about belts! ;)

Marco.

[paulf-2007]

Or better still, sell it and buy a direct-drive, then worry no longer about belts! ;)

Marco.+1

[alphaGT]

Hi Alpha - Its an Android appl in Playstore; called RPM Calculator. Place your phone on the platter (with stylus guard in place !), start the app and reset it then spin up the turntable. I placed my phone in different positions and the answer is the same whatever. Agree the appl might not be accurate but it is consistent but who really knows !..... although, I could use an old Strobe and I may do that for another reference. An aftermarket speed controller might well be a fix but it would cost $$$ and if that is the answer then I need another deck.

Cheers, Richard

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170916/e39e6b957fd5ae0cdfe26f3d99d032dd.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170916/5ecb0106f08e26bd9113ca0b710c44c7.jpg

Richard, sorry for the delay, but I finally got around to searching for this app for my phone. I've got an Apple 6 phone, not the latest but fairly new. And this app called RPM was free without extra bells and whistles. First run I followed the instructions and placed it right up against the spindle and ran the app. It said I had a .2 error running fast at 33.4. I ran it again and got the same thing. Then I got an idea and I placed it close to the outside of the record. And it gave me a reading of 33.27, some -.17 percent error. So! I then placed it about half way, and as you see in the pic, it gave me a perfect 33.33. Of course RPMs do not change no matter how big the object spinning is, or how far from the center you get. And it does say on its information page that if you have any doubts you should calibrate your phone by running it on a turntable that you know runs at a perfect 33.33. There are no calibration adjustments, I guess you're just supposed to do it mentally. But, anyway, the amount of error you are showing could be within the error margin of your phone? I advise you to invest in a more accurate tool, I also saw some other apps that worked with a Bluetooth strobe light, which sounds like a much more accurate way to measure . But who knows what the light cost?

So now I've got the same issue as you, I'm not sure if my 'table is running dead on 33.33? But, I'll tell you this, I love the way it sounds! And honestly don't care if it's not perfect. For it to sound hurried and loose its pace and timing may require more error than we are showing? If, in fact it's in the table, and not in our phones.



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[STD305M]

Hi Richard,
I also have this app and it shows my strathclyde turntable as running at 34.3, also my project 2xperience which is only 2 months old running at 34.3.
I think you can safely say the app is not very accurate.

Regards Steve...

[STD305M]

Default
Hi Richard,
I also have this app and it shows my strathclyde turntable as running at 34.3, also my project 2xperience which is only 2 months old running at 34.3.
I think you can safely say the app is not very accurate.

Regards Steve...

[walpurgis]

With consistent speed excess, the obvious answer is to turn the motor pulley groove diameter down a touch. But most folk don't have a lathe.

[STD305M]

Duplicate

[bbbiker800]

Once again thanks for your help guys, much appreciated.

This exercise has made me wonder whether there's a lot of people - who don't have a mega buck belt drive - who don't really know what their deck is running at. That said they are probably happy and have no suspicions unlike paranoid me!!

TBH I wasn't expecting the mobile application to be totally accurate but was thinking that if I got down to say 33.5 then that would be about right and would also take into account the .1 which many attribute (forums!) to stylus drag.

Rather than visit my rega dealer then, I'll find a way to strobe it and see what I get.

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

If my memory serves me right, the National Grid have an obligation to supply the mains frequency at 50Hz +/- 1%.
So in theory 49.5 to 50.5 Hz with the exception of fault disturbances, usually only short duration. On a couple of sites I have worked we set up a monitoring system.
The results showed only once in 48Hrs did the mains frequency drop[ under 49.5Hz but strangely it sat slightly above the standard at 50.1 to 50.2Hz
That would only represent my local area, not sure how other areas may change? Though the Grid is a powerful system and should keep tight control of the frequency.

There are plenty of down loadable strobe discs, just light them up with a filament lamp and you should show what the actual speed is, within the mains tolerance.

[walpurgis]

There are plenty of down loadable strobe discs, just light them up with a filament lamp and you should show what the actual speed is, within the mains tolerance.

Surely, if the mains frequency is off, the strobe disc readings will be inaccurate?

[Stratmangler]

Surely, if the mains frequency is off, the strobe disc readings will be inaccurate?

He did say "within the mains tolerance".
I've been thinking about it, and if the mains is off it will still be possible to see if the platter rotates at the correct speed, because the lamp will also be affected.

So no, Geoff, if the mains frequency is off, the strobe disc readings will not be inaccurate.

[RothwellAudio]

First off, you need to know if the turntable is running fast/slow or not - I have no faith in that app to give you an accurate measurement. There is a very easy way to check if you have the same music on CD and vinyl. Just play both both at the same time (they don't have to be accurately synced) and flick between the two. Any pitch/tempo difference will be obvious, and I mean really obvious.
If there is an error, what can you do? Well, you certainly can't change the speed by altering the mains frequency with a lightbulb because the speed is locked to the frequency of the mains, not its voltage. BTW, the mains frequency is held to a very tight tolerance so that shouldn't be problem. Really, you're left with playing about with different belts to fine tune the speed unless you go down the route of expensive speed controllers.
But first, check the problem with a CD/vinyl comparison.

[rubber duck]

So no, Geoff, if the mains frequency is off, the strobe disc readings will not be inaccurate.


You'll probably be much better off looking at a strobe provided you're using a battery operated strobe light, or are certain your mains frequency is 50Hz.

I use a mains regenerator locked on 50Hz.

[bbbiker800]

Thanks one and all for the guidance - really do appreciate the wisdom !

I will try the CD/LP comparison idea and will definitely get some kind of strobe either using the mains or battery powered.

I have no other belts to play with having reverted to the Rega Black from the (upgraded) White and onto the Edwards Blue belt - that dropped the RPM. Which assuming the appls inaccuracy is a constant then thats a small result.

.......... when all said and done me thinks I'll have to live with this or get a new TT as there's no point in buying a Rega TT PSU

[bbbiker800]

Thanks one and all for the guidance - really do appreciate the wisdom !

I will try the CD/LP comparison idea and will definitely get some kind of strobe either using the mains or battery powered.

I have no other belts to play with having reverted to the Rega Black from the (upgraded) White and onto the Edwards Blue belt - that dropped the RPM. Which assuming the appls inaccuracy is a constant then thats a small result.

.......... when all said and done me thinks I'll have to live with this or get a new TT as there's no point in buying a Rega TT PSU

All - I apologise for re-opening this but I thought I'd just update the responders with some results to their ideas/thoughts.

I tried the CD/LP comparision idea and had real problems trying to sync tracks and switch between them. I'd say that ended with me thinking that there was no really obvious speed difference. The two different presentations of the same thing were actually quite distracting.

However, my company gave me a new Samsung J5 and just out of interest, I tried the same appl. Result is 33.4/5 on the Edwards belt. I think i'll live with that.
Thats interesting as it points to a more accurate accelerometer in that phone whilst the appl version/release is the same.

I also did a manual strobe check (using paper disk and LED torch). That looked that it wasn't quite steady at 33.33 (50hz). An expensive pukka handheld electronic unit would be accurate and indicate the real RPM but that's more expense !.

So, i'll live with that result.

But, I now understand that the new Neo Rega TT PSU has a speed adjustment. Its not unreasonable to ask whether that feature is an acknowledgement their tables run a little bit fast. It would be interesting to hear if anyone is using one on their older TT and whether it has delivered benefits? If it does and i can get a good deal I might think about that (hypocrite !).