Speaker users recommendations ?

[steve-z]

I'm considering getting a pair of Q Acoustics Concept 20 speakers, would appreciate any thoughts on them from other forum users who have a pair.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[agk]

I don't have them but I'd recommend posting in the relevant area of the forum as a starting point.

[steve-z]

Sorry about that I'm a bit of a newbie [emoji848]
How do I delete or move it to the relevant forum ?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jandl100]

I am sure that a passing, kindly moderator will spot this soon, and move it to where it belongs. :)

[walpurgis]

Moved from Digital Expressions.

Dunno about "kindly moderator", I'm a complete swine! :lol:




I'd suggest telling folk what amplifier you will be using and what sized room they'll be in.

[vintage60]

I'm considering getting a pair of Q Acoustics Concept 20 speakers, would appreciate any thoughts on them from other forum users who have a pair.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hi Steve - are you looking to purchase new or used? I ask because if buying new, there are other used speakers for a similar outlay that are quite a bit better. I owned the 20s at the same time as PMC DB1i bookshelves and recently owned Quad S1. Used DB1i and S1 range from £280 - £425 on a good day. Being able to compare the 20 with the DB1i side by side, the DB1i is simply better in all respects. In each main area: integration, coherence, neutrality, smooth upper mids and treble, it was slightly ahead of the 20, but when you draw all these together, it made the DB1i stand out clearly as the better speaker.

The 20 is not bad by any means. At its price point, it's difficult to find something better, but if you are open to buying used, then to use Marco's phrase, you get much more SVPP (sound value per pound). The Quad S1 is also a great little speaker. It sounded very good at the end of equipment in a much higher price league for which it is positioned which only goes to show that inherently, it is well designed and well made.

Cheers

[Haselsh1]

Quite a few years ago I owned a pair of 2020's which I was using with a Croft pre/power combination. The sound was exceptional when compared to other combinations I had owned but I just could not get on with the lack of any low bass. I changed them eventually for Dali floorstanders which then had too much bass and so it goes...

I think that this type of loudspeaker can well and truly sustain itself in a system with quite expensive ancillaries.

[steve-z]

Hi Steve - are you looking to purchase new or used? I ask because if buying new, there are other used speakers for a similar outlay that are quite a bit better. I owned the 20s at the same time as PMC DB1i bookshelves and recently owned Quad S1. Used DB1i and S1 range from £280 - £425 on a good day. Being able to compare the 20 with the DB1i side by side, the DB1i is simply better in all respects. In each main area: integration, coherence, neutrality, smooth upper mids and treble, it was slightly ahead of the 20, but when you draw all these together, it made the DB1i stand out clearly as the better speaker.

The 20 is not bad by any means. At its price point, it's difficult to find something better, but if you are open to buying used, then to use Marco's phrase, you get much more SVPP (sound value per pound). The Quad S1 is also a great little speaker. It sounded very good at the end of equipment in a much higher price league for which it is positioned which only goes to show that inherently, it is well designed and well made.

Cheers

Many thanks for the info, I was guided towards the Concept 20 as a good friend of mine has just bought the much cheaper 2020is and is finding them exceptionally good so I thought to go for the "turbo" version, the Concept 20s tend to get universal praise in all the reviews I've seen online so I thought I was on safe ground, I do intend to buy used hopefully under £200.
The speakers are going to be used in a second tier system in the bedroom. My main setup is a pair of Jordan Eikona 2 VTL floor standers driven by a Cambridge CXA60, I don't expect the C20s are likely to get close to them but should be ok for not so critical listening.
I'm sure the PMCs are superb but if memory serves they were about £1k when new, for that price they should be better [emoji3]
Likewise the Quad S1s at £500 are a bit out of my scope money wise, and I think they're a bit of a rarity second hand, there are certainly none on ebay atm.
Cheers


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[steve-z]

Quite a few years ago I owned a pair of 2020's which I was using with a Croft pre/power combination. The sound was exceptional when compared to other combinations I had owned but I just could not get on with the lack of any low bass. I changed them eventually for Dali floorstanders which then had too much bass and so it goes...

I think that this type of loudspeaker can well and truly sustain itself in a system with quite expensive ancillaries.

Thanks for the reply and your observations on the 2020s, I'm not too bothered about a lack of low bass provided what bass is there is fast and tight. They will be used with a Yamaha AS501 amp, I also have a small 50w Yamaha sub I can bring into action if needed if the music demands it, no doubt there are better speakers out there than the Concept 20s but if I'm able to get a pair used for £200 I'd be lucky to find a better sounding speaker for that price, in an ideal world if I had the money I'd get another pair of Jordan's, the smaller Reflex 7s but unfortunately I don't have £700+ to spend.
Cheers


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Haselsh1]

Thanks for the reply and your observations on the 2020s, I'm not too bothered about a lack of low bass provided what bass is there is fast and tight. They will be used with a Yamaha AS501 amp, I also have a small 50w Yamaha sub I can bring into action if needed if the music demands it, no doubt there are better speakers out there than the Concept 20s but if I'm able to get a pair used for £200 I'd be lucky to find a better sounding speaker for that price, in an ideal world if I had the money I'd get another pair of Jordan's, the smaller Reflex 7s but unfortunately I don't have £700+ to spend.
Cheers


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

One thing for certain Steve is that no matter what loudspeakers you own, there are always going to be ones out there that are different and almost certainly better to your ears. You just have to find that happy balance and find the ones that are for you.

[steve-z]

One thing for certain Steve is that no matter what loudspeakers you own, there are always going to be ones out there that are different and almost certainly better to your ears. You just have to find that happy balance and find the ones that are for you.

That’s very true, with speakers it can be very much horses for courses as well as the listening room playing it’s part in the end result. The Jordan Eikona 2 VTLs I’m using to my mind are beyond criticism, they just seem to do everything right, doesn’t matter what the genre, everything is reproduced beautifully, they even have enough clout without the need for a sub for reproducing action movie soundtracks. A friend of mine has the smaller Reflex 7s which he found to be excellent, on the strength of their performance he now has the (much more expensive) Jordan Aurora 800s, he’s had plenty of very good and expensive speakers in the past but considers the Auroras the best he’s ever owned.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[steve-z]

Well I took a friends advice and bought a pair of Q Acoustics 2020i speakers, spurred on by the fact that Richer Sound have shaved a further £20 off the price, now down to a paltry £79, at that I couldn’t resist the temptation. I’ve had them setup in the bedroom for a week now and tbh if there’s a better speaker for anything like the money I’d love to hear them. For the price the SQ is exceptional, they major on clarity and detail with a fair dose of dynamics and bass weight too, they certainly don’t lack bass as has been suggested in fact when placed close to the back wall there was a little too much of it, having now brought them forward 6” or so, increased the spacing and toed them in the balance is much better. In my room there is a slight unevenness which shows up with a frequency sweep, the bass is well maintained down to 70hz and then drops noticeably but comes back close to reference level at 50hz before calling it a day at about 40hz, I had a feeling the dip could be a room effect so I replayed the sweep and listened again from the landing outside the open bedroom door, sure enough there was more energy between 50-70hz although still down slightly from reference level. I think the slight drop in that area is port output taking over from the direct driver output, not uncommon when speaker designers try to make small speakers produce low bass. Some years ago a friend of mine had a pair of Monitor Audio Studio 20 floor standers which had an even more pronounced droop in response at 55-80hz, it was shown clearly in MA’s own on axis response plot, they were not small speakers but the bass driver was only 5” like the 2020i. It made a lot of pop music in particular sound a bit “thin”.
For £79 I’m delighted with the SQ and the slight anomaly in the bass only shows up on certain tracks most noticeable for me on “Doin’ it Right” on Daft Punks Random Access Memories, the song has 3 prominent bass notes of slightly different frequencies, all 3 play back at exactly the same level on my Jordan Eikona 2 VTLs in my living room, with the 2020i in the bedroom one note is at the right level the other 2 are probably 4-6dbs down. For the money though it’s a very small criticism particularly as they do everything else so well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[struth]

Make good speakers QA. ive had a few pairs, and currently have a set of their actives.

[steve-z]

Make good speakers QA. ive had a few pairs, and currently have a set of their actives.

Are they the BT3s that you have ? they look a very neat solution for a lot of people for not much money ( currently £179)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Haselsh1]

but the bass driver was only 5” like the 2020i.


No mate, five inch drivers are never going to reproduce low frequencies unless you double up on them or add ABR's with a fairly big cabinet. In some ways though small drivers act like a low frequency blocking filter enabling the mids to be considerably better than they may have been. I love the Q Acoustics small speakers and would happily look at them again if I had to.

[steve-z]

No mate, five inch drivers are never going to reproduce low frequencies unless you double up on them or add ABR's with a fairly big cabinet. In some ways though small drivers act like a low frequency blocking filter enabling the mids to be considerably better than they may have been. I love the Q Acoustics small speakers and would happily look at them again if I had to.

I’m afraid I have to disagree with you on that one, small drivers are very capable of producing deep bass in the right setup, a case in point are the Jordan Eikona 2s in my primary system VTLs which manage to have a flat response in my living room to just below 40hz with a final tailing off at 32hz, a friend of mine has a pair of the same drivers in the MLTL cabinet design which takes the response down to 28hz, the Eikona 2 only has a 4” cone (admittedly a very expensive one)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[walpurgis]

I’m afraid I have to disagree with you on that one, small drivers are very capable of producing deep bass in the right setup

True!

Anybody in doubt, look up the ancient 'Daline' speaker design. It sported a five inch KEF B110 driver and could reach down to 30Hz (with reduced amplitude).

The thing about small drivers, is that it takes a bit of crafty design to get output continuing below the driver resonance. The limiting factor is the level of output. You won't get high levels (unless you use a monstrous bass horn).

Bose used four inch drivers in the old 901 speaker and that was flat down to about 35 Hz and extended below. But each box had nine drivers and much equalisation was employed.

[steve-z]

True!

Anybody in doubt, look up the ancient 'Daline' speaker design. It sported a five inch KEF B110 driver and could reach down to 30Hz (with reduced amplitude).

The thing about small drivers, is that it takes a bit of crafty design to get output continuing below the driver resonance. The limiting factor is the level of output. You won't get high levels (unless you use a monstrous bass horn).

Many years (30+) ago I had a pair of Meridian M3 active speakers which used the B110 bass unit, they were fairly small speaker which employed some equalisation to get the response down to 38hz, unfortunately the bass power handling was terrible even at modest volume levels they would hit the endstops on bass transients, then again it’s a pretty cheap unit wasad, and not in the Eikonas league, btw the Eikonas free air resonance is at 43hz.
Although my VTLs have only the 1 driver per cabinet they give me more than enough volume level in my living room, my normal listening level is around the 9 o'clock level on the CXA60s volume control, as a test I once advanced the volume to the 12 o'clock position playing some very bass heavy music just to see how much cone deflection there was on the Eikonas, judged by eye I'm guessing it was probably only +/- 3mm, certainly within the Jordan spec of +/- 5mm of linear travel and well under the +/- 10mm maximum, at that level the volume was antisocial to say the least although the sound was still perfectly clean with quite a bit more in reserve.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[fatmarley]

The thing about small drivers, is that it takes a bit of crafty design to get output continuing below the driver resonance. The limiting factor is the level of output. You won't get high levels (unless you use a monstrous bass horn).

That's right - My headphones get down to 20hz with a 40mm driver.

[Haselsh1]

Then perhaps you could explain to me why almost all professional bass drivers are around fifteen inches...? The bigger the driver, the lower it can go and the more air it can shift. A five inch driver is just never going to compete in anything like a real world situation. Even doubling up on five inch drivers does not work as good as one big driver. ABR's are also a heavy compromise.

[walpurgis]

Then perhaps you could explain to me why almost all professional bass drivers are around fifteen inches...?

As I said:


The limiting factor is the level of output

Big drivers are needed if large volumes of air are to be shifted, as in a 'Pro' situation. But in domestic environments, smaller drive units can produce deep enough bass. Just not at great volumes.

If you are handy, try it out! I've built quarter wave transmission line speakers tuned to say 40Hz or 45Hz using four and five inch drivers and had some pretty deep bass from them. The output rolling off below the system resonance, but still heard below that. The drive units my have 40, 50 or even 60 Hz resonance, but the acoustic line resonance is excited by them to below that and the bass is extended further.

Reflex designs often use a similar trick, with port output extending below the driver resonance and reinforcing the low bass.

[Macca]

As I said:



Big drivers are needed if large volumes of air are to be shifted, as in a 'Pro' situation. But in domestic environments, smaller drive units can produce deep enough bass. Just not at great volumes.

If you are handy, try it out! I've built quarter wave transmission line speakers tuned to say 40Hz or 45Hz using four and five inch drivers and had some pretty deep bass from them. The output rolling off below the system resonance, but still heard below that. The drive units my have 40, 50 or even 60 Hz resonance, but the acoustic line resonance is excited by them to below that and the bass is extended further.

Reflex designs often use a similar trick, with port output extending below the driver resonance and reinforcing the low bass.

But then you get 'soft' bass from the port. I'm with Sean on this; yes you can get measurably low frequencies from a small driver, or an array of them, but subjectivly it isn't the same as using a big driver. You don't get the same slam or impact and it never sounds as effortless as it should.

[struth]

Think deep bass is overrated tbh. Its not really natural either. better with just enough imo. a tannoy 10 or 12 goes way low enough.

[Macca]

All the ambience of the recording is in the deep bass, even if the instruments used on the recording don't go that low. My current speakers are -3dB at 40Hz and they don't go low enough to reproduce all that soundstage ambience, the difference is obvious compared to the speakers I have had that go lower.

[steve-z]

Yes, I do agree big bass drivers can shift more air but the bigger (and heavier) cones tend to be more prone to overshoot so you tend to lose accuracy, also ports and transmission lines do not necessarily produce soft bass if they’re designed correctly and tuned properly, certainly in a domestic situation smaller and lighter drive units give better control at low frequencies at normal listening levels and are less likely to cause room resonance problems, personally I’d go for tightness and control over uncontrolled weight any day.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[walpurgis]

The same physical 'rules' apply to large and smaller speaker drive units. They have to possess adequate self damping from the motor (magnet/coil), to control the air mass being driven.

You can see differing ways in which the magnet power is chosen to suit purposes in say the KEF Chorale, where the B200 driver has a small magnet. This is because the air in the sealed system acts like a spring and restores the cone to its starting position without much electrical energy being needed.

Conversely, speakers like Lowthers employ huge magnets, in order to provide sufficient damping for the air mass in their folded horns. In the case of Lowthers, powerful magnets also give a rising response, allowing the mid/top output to match the horn reinforced lower output.

[steve-z]

Although it’s been a long time since this thread was active I thought it was worthy of an update particularly as the vast majority of the gear in both of my systems has been replaced, speakers in particular which are now the first two in the Q Acoustics Concept series the 20s in the bedroom setup, driven by a European spec Onkyo A9010, and the 40s in my main setup with the CXA60.
The Jordan’s I had which I thought were perfect 2 years ago turned out not to be and they have been outclassed by the QA Concept 40s, admittedly at a slightly higher price. Although both sets of QAs use 5” bass drivers, the quality and quantity of bass relative to cabinet size of both is extremely good albeit in the 40s with a doubling of driver count. I’ve now owned the 20s for just over a year and the 40s for 9 months and to all intents and purposes I’ve reached my audio nirvana so I can say goodbye to upgrading. The Concept 20/Onkyo setup for under £500 I think is pretty unbeatable at the price and would pass muster as someone’s primary setup particularly as the EU spec amp comes with a Wolfson DAC and a pretty decent MM phono stage.
Both sets of speakers have benefited from bi-wiring, Audioquest FLX SLiP 14/4 cable giving very good performance for not much money.
Endgame for me I think [emoji848]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fatmarley]

Yes, I do agree big bass drivers can shift more air but the bigger (and heavier) cones tend to be more prone to overshoot so you tend to lose accuracy, certainly in a domestic situation smaller and lighter drive units give better control at low frequencies at normal listening levels and are less likely to cause room resonance problems, personally I’d go for tightness and control over uncontrolled weight any day.


I can see why anyone would think that, but it's not the case at all. There's no reason why a bigger and heavier cone can't have a bigger and heavier magnet, so the power to weight ratio stays the same. Bigger speakers often do produce deeper bass that can cause problems with room modes but again there's no reason why a bigger bass driver can't produce the same or even less low frequency extension than a smaller bass driver.