Slight Wow on old Rega Planar 3

[homespun]

I have a very old but in excellent condition original Rega Planar 3 with RB300 arm. I bought it new over 35 years ago. On some organ and piano music on inner tracks a slight wow can be heard.

I up dated the motor mount to the fixed sticky foam pads, new ally pulley and a little blue belter drive belt. I cleaned out the bearing housing and lubed it with Rega recommended oil.

I wondered whether throwing more money at this old deck to up grade the motor is worth it and it won't be cheap, or buy a more up to date deck which hopefully will have better wow figures and not necessarily a Rega, I don't have any particular brand loyalty. I guess my budget will be £550/600 Max with out cartridge

Thanks
Pete

[walpurgis]

Do you have another belt you can try it with?

[Audio Al]

Yes try a std belt first
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ISOKINETIK-TURNTABLE-DRIVE-BELT-FITS-REGA-P3-P5-Planar-3-RP3-/171410871643?epid=1549427313&hash=item27e8e2555b:g:OREAAOSwDk5T36t3

[Macca]

My neighbour has the exact same deck and arm from the same era. It does wow a tiny bit, that's a lightweight belt drive for you. My advice is buy a decent used Technics SL1200 or 1210 (about £300) and fit the Rega arm to it.

[DiveDeepDog]

I've repaired a couple of old Rega's, new silicone belt and replaced the cap in the power supply brought it back to normal.

[homespun]

Yes, I have a standard Rega belt which I will try. I have always been fascinated by direct drive, especially more recent models with the sophisticated speed control electronics, they do give better figures that some belt drive decks
I must admit my pal has a Technics deck not sure of the model, but its several years old and it sounds awesome by comparison to my Rega, the bass out put is legendary just with its standard arm. It has a audio Technica cartridge but not sure which model.
Will report back after some testing

Peter

[DSJR]

You live in Harrow and Harrow Audio are now fairly mature and friendly Rega dealers (I know Richard Conroy over 40 years now)! Why not take your deck along and compare with a new one to see what's happening. Sticky old main bearing oil is an issue, loose main bearing and tonearm fixings kill the sonics and a tired motor suspension and unevenly stretched belt causes all manner of problems. Fluffy old mats should also be replaced in my experience but this isn't to do with pitch stability, more sonic definition.

I'm not staunchly defending Regas and am aware the lower models won't have the digital-like rock-solid pitch stability of a modern techie or good old idler drive for example, but they shouldn't be bad enough to cause issues when fettled right.

[homespun]

Thanks, yes, likewise, I have known Richard Conroy for many years, in fact I live round the corner from the shop and could walk there in 5 minutes, However, I didn't want to bring Harrow Audio into the equation until I had read other peoples views and done a bit of market research.

[homespun]

Just fitted my spare Rega standard drive belt and wow is now almost undetectable, as for main bearing oil, I used what Roy Gandy recommended a EP type gear oil, but there seems to be other oils being recommended by various people, and Edwards decks which is virtually a Rega in disguise recommend a thin synthetic engine oil such as Mobil 0-30. There seems to be quite a few different opinions on main bearing oil. I wonder how much different oils affect Wow or are we being too finnicky

[hifi_dave]

Oils do affect the sound and I would recommend you go with Rega's suggestion. They do know what they are doing, as you have discovered by going back to the Rega belt instead of the tweaky one. A Rega White Belt might be also help with your problem.

[Oddball]

I was expecting a thread about the wow factor of a Rega :lol:

[RobHolt]

Oils do affect the sound and I would recommend you go with Rega's suggestion. They do know what they are doing, as you have discovered by going back to the Rega belt instead of the tweaky one. A Rega White Belt might be also help with your problem.

Seconded on the white belt.

When I fitted one in place of the standard belt it gave a measurable improvement to W&F.
Subtle but it's a cheap upgrade.

White belt, sticky pad attached motor, clean bearing with proper oil should get a Rega running at constant speed.

If it still shows problems it would be worth checking the motor phasing caps and ensuring the pulley hasn't worked loose. Easy cheap fixes.

Rob

[homespun]

Thanks, we are getting there, I'm very reluctant to throw too much money at a 40 year old turntable, and a new one is out of the question, funds are tight. Do you know, Dave I bought this deck from Radlett Audio when the shop was in Radlett, and not long after the Planar 3 came out with the RB300 arm, you could have been my salesman. Actually the wife picked it up for me from the shop!! A friend has lent me an ORIGIN LIVE mat to try,

[hifi_dave]

Those were the good ol' days..:)

[homespun]

I remember meeting Mike Creek in the Radlett shop, it was just after i purchased a Creek 40 40, so he was pleased and offered to convert the DIN connections to Phono free of charge at his Barnet workshop.
I'l check your web site

As you say good ol days

[hifi_dave]

Back then, we had a waiting list of 6 months for a Planar-3. We had an allocation of 24/month but this wasn't nearly enough to supply the demand.

The Creek 4040 was a winner. I remember talking to John Dawson of A&R (now Arcam) about it and he told me it couldn't be produced for the asking price of £98. I told him that not only was it possible but it was wonderful and we couldn't get them in fast enough. Mike Creek used to deliver 10 or 12 every Friday and Saturday morning, I would be phoning to plead for more. He used to drop off a few more on Saturday afternoon whilst he did some shopping in Radlett. Good times..:cool:

[homespun]

Apart from my initial concern of a slight wow which has in effect been reduced to 'not worth worrying about' any more after re fitting the Rega standard drive belt.

I'm happy with the set up which is an early Creek 40 40 amp, Rega Planar 3/RB 300 arm (both purchased from Radlett Audio).

Fitted a new Ortofon Blue cartridge fitted recently, Rega wool mat replacement from Harrow audio, some pretty bog standard 79 strand speaker cable and a pair of B&W 685 S2 book shelf speakers on cheap Mission stands, all fairly budget gear in to days terms, It sounds great to my ears, I tried a new Mitchel & Johnson amp on loan, it sounded excellent but I still preferred my 'old' Creek 40 40, it is some how more musical.

[Macca]

You've got a well matched system there, not surprised it sounds good.

[homespun]

Thanks Martin, Its a pretty dated system apart from the cartridge and speakers, but it seems to give very pleasing sound on Vinyl. The Creek is very musical, it encourages you to listen the music not the 3rd violin in the back row of an orchestra, I do jest.

My wow as mentioned is now low enough not to worry about, I might in the future consider making the motor isolated from the plinth, as a retired engineer, I will ponder for a while on the possibilities, no hurry.

Direct drive has always attracted me for their speed control and no wow with the quartz lock motor, but never had one. My pal has a Technics not sure of model and the bass response is just awesome, no wonder DJ's love them, I might look round for a second hand direct drive deck as there are quite a few makes out there, some brilliant and some not so good.

[Macca]

I had a 4040 for a while in about '93. It does have a warm, lush character. Couple that with the slightly clinical Ortofon cart and the slightly clinical B&W and you have synergy! Of course I did not know that in '93. Ah well.

Re the Technics I first had a listen to one in a hifi sense at a DJ's flat. I thought it was better than my Systemdek IIX by a margin. That was a shock. About 20 years later I bought one.

[homespun]

Martin, This morning I had a demo at my local Audio shop of the Audio Technica AT-LP5 fitted with the Standard AT95X cartridge through a used ARCAM amp and Wharfdale book shelf speakers. I have to be honest, the sound was superb and I would say that my old Planar 3 was no better. Even motor and bearing noise was undetectable on the LP5 and wow didn't exist, but all 3 slightly evident on the old Rega even after my servicing and up grades. The shop owner said Rega are his best sellers but don't get all prejudiced about direct drive and far East production. Putting the arguments to one side its what my ears heard and I am extremely impressed. The shop said just fitting a better cartridge such as an Ortofon Blue would take the deck to a whole new level

[Macca]

Martin, This morning I had a demo at my local Audio shop of the Audio Technica AT-LP5 fitted with the Standard AT95X cartridge through a used ARCAM amp and Wharfdale book shelf speakers. I have to be honest, the sound was superb and I would say that my old Planar 3 was no better. Even motor and bearing noise was undetectable on the LP5 and wow didn't exist, but all 3 slightly evident on the old Rega even after my servicing and up grades. The shop owner said Rega are his best sellers but don't get all prejudiced about direct drive and far East production. Putting the arguments to one side its what my ears heard and I am extremely impressed. The shop said just fitting a better cartridge such as an Ortofon Blue would take the deck to a whole new level

Unless you require the USB connectivity I'd still recommend getting a used Technics SL1200 or 1210 over the brand new AT5. Or just stick with your Rega. You'll never get the absolute speed stability of a direct drive from a lightweight belt drive, but that aside it comes down to personal preference. I know people who would never swap their Rega for a Technics, and people who would never swap their Technics for a Rega. :)

[steve-z]

Hi, I just thought I'd offer my thoughts on this as I'm a current Rega user but have also recently owned an Audio Technica ATLP120 direct drive deck. Firstly I considered the stock ATs Sound Quality to be pretty average but can be tweaked easily, junk the DJ slipmat first and replace with something better, I tried cork, solid acrylic, in fact almost anything will sound better than the stock mat. A lot of people online decry the on board phono preamp, tbh it's pretty reasonable but you can bypass it and use a better stage which helps, I use a Schiit Mani which is excellent. One point, AT seem to think the correct speed for an LP is 33.3 RPM exactly and that's what the Quartz locked setting gives you not the correct 33.33, so 1% slow, checked this with an iPhone app. The AT95e is probably the bet £25 cartridge around but the deck is worth better, I tried AT120EB, Nagaoka MP110 and Denon DL110 all of which sounded very good, also set tracking force with an electronic gauge as the counterweight scale is miles out.
Good though it is it can't match my Rega Planar 3 (2016) for SQ, yes it's a lot more expensive but it shows, although I've upgraded the subplatter from the Delrin std one to a machined alloy one and replaced the mat with an Origin Live mat which sounds better and gets the arm closer to parallel to the record with the slightly tall than average Nagaoka MP110 I'm using currently. Btw the iPhone app shows my deck to rotate at 33.34 RPM much closer to ideal than the AT. Hope this is helpful.
Steve


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[homespun]

Thanks Steve for all the info on your set up, if you read my initial post and subsequent posts I managed to remove almost all the wow on my old Planar 3 to almost undetectable. What I didn't mention was I adjusted the VTA of the arm to parallel when in playing position with the Ortofon Blue ( even though Roy Gandy said it didn't matter ). I made my own spacers out of wood. I also said that direct drive has always intrigued me having never owned one, now after hearing one at a friends and a demo recently, I was very impressed and thought just as good as my old P3. However, I'm not going to jump in head first till I have done more research and will take Macca's advice and check out a used AT 1200, early days as they say, There are some other models to look at like Onkyo and TEAC.

As for my Planar 3, over 40 years old now, I am reluctant to throw more money at it, but possibly look at a Rega Clone such as Edwards, just to add confusion to my quest.

[steve-z]

Thanks Steve for all the info on your set up, if you read my initial post and subsequent posts I managed to remove almost all the wow on my old Planar 3 to almost undetectable. What I didn't mention was I adjusted the VTA of the arm to parallel when in playing position with the Ortofon Blue ( even though Roy Gandy said it didn't matter ). I made my own spacers out of wood. I also said that direct drive has always intrigued me having never owned one, now after hearing one at a friends and a demo recently, I was very impressed and thought just as good as my old P3. However, I'm not going to jump in head first till I have done more research and will take Macca's advice and check out a used AT 1200, early days as they say, There are some other models to look at like Onkyo and TEAC.

As for my Planar 3, over 40 years old now, I am reluctant to throw more money at it, but possibly look at a Rega Clone such as Edwards, just to add confusion to my quest.

I think Roy Gandy may have had a rethink re arm height as Rega now market a gizmo which allows the arm height to be raised from 2-8mms on the new Rega arms with the 3 point fixing, I have one fitted to my P3 and use it on the lowest 2mm setting, that in conjunction with the thinner Origin Live mat gets the arm perfectly level with the relatively tall Nagaoka. Slight problem when using it is that you can't play records with the lid down as the lid touches the counterweight, likewise when on the armrest the securing clip needs to be used as again there is contact when the lid is lowered. Because the latest RB arm has a steel counterweight rather than tungsten it has to me made larger, I expect Rega naively think users will only use their cartridges [emoji6]


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[walpurgis]

Slight problem when using it is that you can't play records with the lid down as the lid touches the counterweight, likewise when on the armrest the securing clip needs to be used as again there is contact when the lid is lowered. Because the latest RB arm has a steel counterweight rather than tungsten it has to me made larger, I expect Rega naively think users will only use their cartridges

That's ridiculous.

[Macca]

You should always take the lid off completely when playing a record though. Can't understand people who don't do that. It's like driving with the handbrake on.

[Stratmangler]

You should always take the lid off completely when playing a record though. Can't understand people who don't do that. It's like driving with the handbrake on.

I agree, but Roy Gandy doesn't ;)

[hifi_dave]

Swings and roundabouts. The lid picks up vibrations when up and protects the arm and record from vibrations when down.

[Stratmangler]

Swings and roundabouts. The lid picks up vibrations when up and protects the arm and record from vibrations when down.

It also picks up vibrations when the lid is down.
Take it off and it doesn't do the negative things at all.
It does leave the turntable vulnerable when in use, so not such a great idea with young children and pets.

[Macca]

Train the young children and pets or just ban them from the room. Problem solved.

Only problem is if you are lazy like me you don't put the lid back on when you've finished and the TT (and the lid) end up looking like they have been down a coal mine.

Cleaned mine up the other day. Used about a hundred baby wipes. I'd forgotten that you should be able to see the TT through the lid. Looks like a different deck. Room now smells of babies.

[Stratmangler]

Room now smells of babies.

No it doesn't!
It smells of baby wipes - babies sometimes smell really disgusting :eyebrows:

[Macca]

having avoided children all my adult life I was under the mistaken impression that the smell of baby wipes was the smell of babies. I now know differently.

In the same way I always assumed that hospital stink was the smell of incontinent old people but then I found out it is the stench of that nasty shit they use to clean the place.

[Stratmangler]

In the same way I always assumed that hospital stink was the smell of incontinent old people but then I found out it is the stench of that nasty shit they use to clean the place.

What nasty shit?
It's rare that the places get cleaned properly.
When I was a kid they smelt of disinfectant and floor polish.

[struth]

Can always tell the new mums in the supermarket from the baby smell. You get used to most of it but shit is shit wherever it comes from. Babies just produce so much more for their size, and its not been digested properly.
When the grandkids came i refused to have anything to do with nappies

[Macca]

What nasty shit?
It's rare that the places get cleaned properly.
When I was a kid they smelt of disinfectant and floor polish.

The cleaning solution they use. Apparently it is the cheapest cleaning solution you can buy. The local bus company here use it to clean their buses, so the buses smell like hospital too. It really is awful.

As you say when we were young hospitals smelled of disinfectant. They smelt clean. I don't know if they are actually clean. Probably not. No-one takes pride in their work anymore and standards have been so low for so long no-one in a position of responsibility is aware of what the acceptable standard is.

[Stratmangler]

I've seen blood on the tiles around a sink on a hospital ward that never got cleaned, when I was in regularly visiting someone over a couple of weeks.
Look under the beds and there's an accumulation of crud that just shouldn't be there.
It's a miracle that anyone walks out of the places.

I've also been in as a patient, but I was either too ill, or off my face on analgesics, to care.

[DSJR]

Back to Regas.

If you can't or won't use their wall bracket for siting (I always thought they sounded best mounted this way), I've tried sorbothane boots/feet under each Rega foot to good effect.

Regarding tonearm height, my experiences are old and I have no means of checking for myself, but so many diamonds on cartridges of all prices were set with too much rake angle - several degrees in fact so VTA was fucked right from the start in actual fact! Having the arm down at the back slightly never did fidelity any harm apart from dull sounding cartridges which can't be saved whatever you do, so Roy Gandy did have a provable point all along in my opinion. Their own MM cartridges are slim and get the tonearm level when fitted to a stock Rega.

I'll probably be ignored and obviously don't sell this stuff any more, but I seriously don't think 2mm down at the back is going to be a be-all-and-end-all for any cartridge. The VTA can be adjusted by 1/10g either way on the downforce in any case although I accept some cartridges are so low in compliance it wouldn't make any real difference - and nobody in the right mind is going to use a Decca or SPU in a Rega Planar, are they - eek?

Some cartridges we used that sounded fine with stock tonearm height from memory - Rega R100/A&R C-E-P77/Sumiko Pearl/Supex SM100E, which are all related I believe, Goldring 900 series and especially the 10** models, all of them sounding great in a Rega - I suspect the 1012GX related Linn Adikt would too, Ortofon OM, 500's and 2M models, a 2M Bronze sounding really good in a current Rega 3 and also some of their MC's like MC10 Super and 20 Super, Denon 110 and 160 and also 304, Linn K9 and K18 at the time, Dynavector 10X IV and V, although these are little 'better' than a DL110 if at all but cost more than double now.

[homespun]

DSJR, I use Balsa wood under the feet of my old Rega, medium soft grade, it really does work. I use a laminate sandwich of 1/16" thick sheets cut down to about 6cm X 6cm square, or enough for the rubber foot print not to over lap the edges, and add or take away until deck is level. Don't glue them together, just let the weight of the deck hold them in place, you probably need a minimum of 4 layers to have any effect

[steve-z]

You should always take the lid off completely when playing a record though. Can't understand people who don't do that. It's like driving with the handbrake on.

I do always remove the lid completely when playing records but I know some don't, everyone to their own I suppose :-)
As for the vinyl picking up vibrations, one of the main reasons I upgraded to an alloy subplatter was to get a longer spindle so I could use my Michell Record Clamp which works nicely to keep the record as dead as possible, it also allows me to gently spin up the turntable by hand before flicking the power switch to save belt wear.
Best sound upgrade for a Rega though is getting one of the latest lightweight wall mounts as I have, gives a much tighter and more focused sound than having it on your sideboard or anything else on the floor.
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[homespun]

With regards to my initial post concerning slight wow on my old Planar 3, I have since retired it to my workshop as a spare system, I haven't the heart to sell it. I took the decision and bought a new Audio Technica AT LP5. The direct drive is silent by the way and absolutely NO wow. However, as nice as the supplied AT95EX cartridge is and its no slouch but lacks a bit of definition and is a bit bass light , I feel the deck deserves a cartridge up grade, My Hi Fi dealer said the arm is capable of handling better cartridges.

I checked a few reviews and the Chinese guy with his cartridge review videos came up with a Goldring Electra, Nagoake MP110 in my price range which is around £100 max, I'v since been recommended the Shure M97XE over the Nagoake. I would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. What I don't want to do is up grade but find I have just moved sideways!

[walpurgis]

For a touch more, a new Denon DL-110 high output moving coil cartridge could be good on that turntable. A decent second hand one should be below your budget. You could put a 'wanted' listing in the 'Private Exhibitions' section. I bet a few members have one they might part with.

Presumably Harrow Audio are local to you. They are a Denon stockist.

[homespun]

Cheers, Yes Harrow Audio are round the corner from where I live, I will pop in tomorrow and have a chat. Never thought of a Denon

[steve-z]

With regards to my initial post concerning slight wow on my old Planar 3, I have since retired it to my workshop as a spare system, I haven't the heart to sell it. I took the decision and bought a new Audio Technica AT LP5. The direct drive is silent by the way and absolutely NO wow. However, as nice as the supplied AT95EX cartridge is and its no slouch but lacks a bit of definition and is a bit bass light , I feel the deck deserves a cartridge up grade, My Hi Fi dealer said the arm is capable of handling better cartridges.

I checked a few reviews and the Chinese guy with his cartridge review videos came up with a Goldring Electra, Nagoake MP110 in my price range which is around £100 max, I'v since been recommended the Shure M97XE over the Nagoake. I would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. What I don't want to do is up grade but find I have just moved sideways!

I've gone through one or two cartridges over the last few years as well as getting reports from friends on some others, the most recent 5 cartridges I've used are the AT95E that came included on the ATLP120 I had last year, the Ortofon 2M Red (2 different ones that came factory fitted on a Project Debut Carbon and a Project Genie RPM 1.3), a Denon DL110, an AT120EB and a Nagaoka MP110, the last 2 I still have, the Nag is on my Rega currently and the 120EB I keep as a backup.
Although much cheaper I prefer the 95E to the 2M Red which for its price has a very poor stylus. The DL110 can sound superb with certain types of music but it's too laid back for Rock music, super stylus though.
The Nag and the 120EB are both excellent for the money, if you want a lighter tracker the 120EB fits the bill and can track anything at 1.5g the Nag equals it at 1.8g.
Both work well with my Schiit Mani phono stage, for me the Nag shades the 120EB by a small margin but if you like a little brighter sound then it's the 120EB. although I've never used one personally most consider the Shure 97 to be a bit of a lemon, tales of poor quality control of stylus and cantilever alignment as well as a rather dull sound even if you get a good one. The Chinese guy on YouTube you mentioned is certainly very thorough with his cartridge reviews, he likes the Nag/Schiit combo although I slightly disagree with his thoughts on the 120EB which I reckon is better than he says.


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[homespun]

I fitted a Ortofon 2M Red to my old Rega Planar 3 and I had to shim the arm base up by several mm to get a level arm ( the Rega is now retired to my workshop ) I was never fully convinced the Red was giving me everything on the record, it sounded excellent, warmish, quite punchy and sweet at times but I felt it could have been a bit more dynamic. I tried a 2M Blue stylus and things started to wake up and give more expression, but look at the price. The AT120 EB i believe has been replaced by the VM510CB but not seen any reviews. The Nag MP110 gets over all winner in class B on those Japanese video tests. It seems cartridges run in trends, what was in last year is out this year.

[homespun]

Just an up date for those who are familiar with Harrow Audio and Richard Conroy, He has retired and will be moving from his Dunstable residence to some where up in Derbyshire. He told me he will pop in to the shop from time to time. They have apparently employed a new manager, who I have yet to meet.

[homespun]

UPDATE, I have just got a Audio Technica AT LP5 turntable. It was partly due to What Hi Fi's review and my desire for a direct drive deck but keeping to a budget. I'm impressed and will post a report on my findings soon. The Rega is still up and running in my workshop so I haven't disbanded it, I haven't got the heart.

[allthingsanalogue]

33.33 vs 33.3 = 0.09% slow not 1%

1% slow would be 32.9967

[steve-z]

I fitted a Ortofon 2M Red to my old Rega Planar 3 and I had to shim the arm base up by several mm to get a level arm ( the Rega is now retired to my workshop ) I was never fully convinced the Red was giving me everything on the record, it sounded excellent, warmish, quite punchy and sweet at times but I felt it could have been a bit more dynamic. I tried a 2M Blue stylus and things started to wake up and give more expression, but look at the price. The AT120 EB i believe has been replaced by the VM510CB but not seen any reviews. The Nag MP110 gets over all winner in class B on those Japanese video tests. It seems cartridges run in trends, what was in last year is out this year.

The Audio Technica VM510CB is not really a replacement for the AT120EB, even though it’s £10 dearer than what I paid for mine, it’s a lower spec and only has a conical stylus, the next up in the series the VM520CB has an elliptical stylus but it’s quite a bit more money, there may be one or two NOS 120EBs still around for a better price, still think the MP110 shades it though.


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