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Marco
07-05-2008, 12:31
In a discussion with Mike (Shian7) recently on the SL-1210 thread he mentioned that Roy Gregory was going somewhat 'ape' over the £12k direct-drive Grand Prix Monaco turntable in Hi-Fi+. Intrigued, I obtained a copy; and what I read put a huge smile on my face because as I was reading it what he was describing was almost an exact facsimile of my feelings on the performance of the KAB-modified Technics SL-1210 (and original SP10) which are available at a mere fraction of the price! It confirms what I've thought all along that direct-drive, done well, is unquestionably a superior drive system solution to going the low or medium-mass belt-drive route. And getting the all-important issue of highly accurate speed stability right with a belt-drive T/T takes high-mass construction to ridiculous levels and a serious amount of required expenditure. The SP10 and SL-1210 in my opinion solve the issue far more elegantly via the use of their near-flawless direct-drive mechanisms.

Allow me to elucidate further on the importance of accurate speed stability with a turntable... Roy Gregory wrote:


I'm afraid that given the essential dichotomy at the heart of turntable design. A stretchy belt isn't exactly a high-tech response. The problem facing any turntable designer is to create a player that resolves at accurate stable speed and does so quietly (meaning, without excessive mechanical vibration). The trouble is that accurate, stable speed control demands a close-coupled drive system and the motor just happens to be the biggest single source of vibration in the unit.

Hence the use of belt-drive, which doesn't just decouple the motor noise, it also helps solve the far thornier issue of real-time variations in speed, through the twin devices of elasticity and slippage. So, far from subtle changes in motor speed are evened out by the belt into less jagged and intrusive variations. Like I said it may not be sophisticated, but it is surprisingly effective. So much so that it drove off [with the help of the ferocity and misguided principles of the Linn marketing machine of the 70s - Marco] the commercial threat of direct-drive with comparative ease, despite the latter's clear theoretical benefits.

You see, even if you coupled a decent, quiet, direct-drive motor to a well-engineered bearing (which actually isn't that difficult) the Achilles heel was the speed control system, which used servos to hunt the correct speed. The end result was arguably a platter that turned constantly too fast or too slow, but most damaging of all, was constantly changing speed, a subtle distortion the ear detected all too readily. The advantage of a belt drive is that those fluctuations in speed are far more gradual and thus less intrusive.


Now what Mr Gregory fails to mention is that the "hunting" effect described above only applied to the cheap direct-drive turntables of the day which were deeply flawed, the result of which was that they gave the 'side' a bad name, and along with the Linn marketing machine at the time that was telling everyone who was willing to listen (and those who were not were simply made to listen anyway!) that the LP12 was the best thing since sliced bread and unquestionably the 'de-facto' turntable of choice. Direct-drive T/Ts, despite when done well being technically superior, were pitched to audiophiles as 'inferior' and simply 'cheap Jap crap'. Consequently, they were relegated to 'low-fi' use in mass-produced midi-systems of the day.

This was indeed a sad state of affairs but undeniably true. It just shows how easily people will believe in a concept if it is marketed cleverly and successfully enough! Unfortunately because of this misinformation the feeling that direct-drive is inferior still exisits amongst many audiophiles today, and the reputation of the excellent SL-1210 is further marred because DJs have adopted it for use because of the high torque (and thus quick start-up time) of the direct-drive motor and the deck's rugged construction, but it was of course never originally designed for the purpose of 'DJ-ing'. Ironically, though, the SL-1210's use as a 'DJ deck' is what has enabled the unit to remain in production today. It was of course originally made as a cost-no-object (to Matsushita Electric) audiophile turntable, which National Panasonic (Technics) are able to sell today at ridiculously low cost due to economies of scale and the 'refined down to a fine art' nature of their mass production techniques.

However, in order to solve the inherent problems of other direct-drive systems on the market at the time, Technics introduced a D/D mechanism with Quartz movement using linear frequency generators, as opposed to the somewhat flawed position-updating systems used by the cheaper direct-drive turntables of the day, which suffered from none of the issues of "hunting" as referred to earlier, and delivered near-perfect accuracy and W&F results of 0.025% - almost identical to that of the Grand Prix Audio Monaco, which achieves 0.002%. It is precisely this mechanism that is used in the SL-1210 today, and the fundamental reason why its audio performance (after minor weaknesses in some ancillary parts have been addressed) is so astonishingly good.

Mr Gregory may have omitted to mention this fact because of copy restrictions but perhaps it was also because he didn't wish to advertise the fact that the sort of performance which is delivered by the G.P.A Monaco is also available at a frankly ridiculously low price (when judiciously modified by the likes of KAB) from a company with a far less desirable audiophile badge, i.e. Technics? ;)

Your thoughts please on this, gentlemen, and on where you stand on the thorny issue of belt-drive (and idler drive) versus direct-drive?

There are numerous other issues Mr Gregory raises in his article which I would like to discuss, and which I feel rather succinctly summarise my own thoughts on the superiority of direct-drive (done well) but before getting to that I would like to deal with issues concerning my question above.

Marco.

Marco
07-05-2008, 14:37
Does anyone think it would be a good idea to send Roy Gregory a link to this discussion? :)

Marco.

DSJR
07-05-2008, 15:29
Marco, what an excellent post and observation...

Leave Mr Gregory to his grandeur... No-one in the UK is going to buy a mega thousand pound direct drive (well, one or two maybe) - the conditioning towards belt or cord drives is too strong. Actually, does anyone in the UK buy very expensive gear at all these days??????? The tiny circulation in some "top end" mags must say something.

Right! Ivor himself told me once he'd have used direct drive had the LP12 been developed a few years later. True!

In the early days, the plinths of many direct drive decks were flimsy and highly resonant. You could all but play tunes on the Technics SL110 I had and the SL120 was as bad, although the original SL150 was much better for some reason. The mid seventies saw Technics using a sprung sub-chassis on their integrated models and Trio introduced a solid plinth made from a resin loaded granite chip material. These sounded really good (and still do I understand) and there were numerous others that worked well too. However the LP12 swept all aside and the fervour with which people like me raved about it all but swamped the enthusiast market back then.

It's interesting that now the LP12 is sounding cleaner, how much more like some of these better behaved old decks it sounds. Don't forget the overpriced but venerable Garrard 301's and 401's, along with the other idler greats like Lencos and TD124's etc..

For those of us impoverished LP lovers, I'd recommend a non "clubbed to death" SL1200 series deck (lightly tweaked). Even the supplied arm has good bearings and will take a surprisingly wide range of good cartridges. I still use a Dual 701 direct drive I paid £50 for many years ago and it works and sounds fine with better mm carts. It even puts the arm on at the beginning of side and takes it off and returns it at the end - what decadence :D

pure sound
07-05-2008, 17:15
The Dual 701 used the Papst motor that ended up in here.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/Goldmund.jpg

Goldmund Studio. Ahead of its time (in many ways) and, in the early 80's, already showing up the shortcomings of the Vilchur design approach for those not brainwashed by the nonsense from Scotland.

I think the problem for RG was that he hadn't seriously listened to a well sorted DD before hearing the Monaco. The price of the Monaco probably just reflects the R&D necessary to do what it does, R&D that was similarly undertaken by the large Japanese corporations in the late 70's and early 80's.

I actually think that the better, non suspended, high mass, belt/thread driven decks (Micro Seiki, Brinkmann etc) can perhaps match the stability and power of a good DD design but to me they simply aren't as elegant a solution.

Marco
07-05-2008, 18:13
Guy,

Not forgetting the MASSIVE difference in cost, too, between those decks and a modified SL-1210 or second-hand SP10! Or the '0-60 in half a day' start-up speed ;)

However I agree in general with your sentiments. I love both those T/Ts, and would also chuck the Platine Verdier into the mix. Not literally, of course, as it is somewhat heavy :eyebrows:



The price of the Monaco probably just reflects the R&D necessary to do what it does, R&D that was similarly undertaken by the large Japanese corporations in the late 70's and early 80's.


100% spot on; which proves that the £12k asking price is not, erm, solely courtesy of its performance!

DSJR,


Leave Mr Gregory to his grandeur... No-one in the UK is going to buy a mega thousand pound direct drive (well, one or two maybe) - the conditioning towards belt or cord drives is too strong.


It is indeed and I would dearly love to do something to lessen the conditioning because people are losing out on superior reproduction of their vinyl collections as a result.

A fully modified SL1210 (like mine) needs to be supplied to and critically reviewed in one of the hi-fi magazines to give it greater exposure to the hi-fi buying public. At the moment it's only a niche product appreciated by those 'in the know'. I would like this situation to change.

Hi-fi World would be my preferred choice, by someone like Adam Smith. Both he and David Price are aficionados of the SL-1210 and of the direct-drive approach, but neither, as far as I'm aware, have heard a fully modified one. The closest I think has been the modified SL-1210 DP reviewed last year which was fitted with an Audio-Origami modified RB250 and a Lyra Dorian, and also an SDS Isoplatmat.

The addition of the external KAB PS-1200 PSU, strobe disabler, Isonoe support feet, and a Funk Firm Achromat (on top of the Isoplatmat) pushes its performance envelope further and into the upper echelons of the high-end turntable arena.

Personally, I prefer going down the route of modifying the existing arm by upgrading the poor quality internal wiring with Cardas Golden Section Strand tonearm cable, and fluid-damping the arm, upgrading the existing counterweight balance to one of soild brass, and the existing headshell to either a good quality magnesium one (such as the Audio Technica MG-10) or what I use, a ZU-Zupreme metal alloy headshell, using high quality Cardas or Clearaudio headshell leads with PCC E cartridge clips.

The bearings on the stock arm are extremely good and the arm itself has been engineered to a pretty high standard. Thus modified it is, in my opinion (and experience) superior to any standard Rega arm (save *perhaps* the RB1000) or the SME M2, and Hadcock GH242 Integra - all of which I have used in the past. It is a complete and utter fallacy that the stock Technics arm is of 'dire quality'.

It's high time the people buying LP12s, Regas, Pro-Jects, and a whole host of other so-so (in comparison), and in some cases expensive, belt-drive T/Ts, discovered what they are missing and got the opportunity to appreciate the magic of an SP10 or a fully modified SL-1210.

But the question I would like to ask is this: are the benefits of a fully modified SL-1210 being kept a secret in purpose by the hi-fi media in order not to affect sales of popular belt-drive T/Ts and therefore upset some influential turntable manufacturers? Mmm...

Marco.

pure sound
07-05-2008, 19:37
I'm not sure who those 'influential' TT manufacturers might be nowadays. Pro-Ject maybe? Rega? Thorens even? They (and Technics) are perhaps the only ones still selling better quality turntables here in any quantity at all.

I think its more an issue of the reviewers simply not being aware of the potential of a device like the 1210. (HiFi World to their credit have at least done something with it.)
A fully loaded KAB turntable has to be imported by an individual. There's no margin in trying to distribute it here and therefore no economic imperative for anyone to get it reviewed. I suspect that someone in the UK could possibly market a similar package of mods to get the best from it and if that happened it might then get more attention.

Sadly, I don't think there's a wilful conspiracy of silence although there is probably a 'status quo' that doubtless some would prefer to remain undisturbed

Marco
07-05-2008, 23:06
Guy,

I agree with what you've written, particularly this bit:


...although there is probably a 'status quo' that doubtless some would prefer to remain undisturbed


I think that's very true, and I would like to do as much as I can to 'disturb' it ;)

What annoys me, primarily, is the amount of sheer twaddle written by some people (particularly on forums) about the SL-1210 and it being 'totally inferior' to things like a Rega P5 or a Michell Gyrodec when nothing could be further from the truth, and others who misconstrue information (such as ALL direct-drives "hunt" for the correct speed, etc) to protect their own insecurities and make themselves feel better about what they own, which will normally be some type of belt-drive T/T!

Some of them have never even heard a decent SL-1210. I've even read this type of crap, believe it or not, from certain dealers! Why? I think there are some pretty insecure people out there who need to somehow justify their purchases, and certain unscrupulous dealers who will quite happily mislead people to protect their own interests... This misinformation needs to be exposed to allow people who may not know the truth a better chance of making an informed decision.

Anyway tomorrow I will tackle, with reference again to Mr Gregory's article on the Grand Prix Monaco T/T, how the inaccurate speed stability of most belt-drive T/Ts impacts on music played, and how in contrast the almost perfect speed stability of a properly designed direct-drive mechanism gives vinyl the unerring security and pitch accuracy of CD, plus comments on a few more things, too :)

Marco.

John
08-05-2008, 08:10
I never heard a really decent direct drive turntable but seems a really good cost effective way in achieving great sounds. I have heard a Lenco with a slatedeck and hope to hear a 401 with a slatedeck in a few weeks time. The lenco was pretty good, nice mid.

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
08-05-2008, 08:52
Over the years I have had a few different decks, I currently own the Feickert Twin but have listened to and owned many others and some of the most memorable have been the ‘older’ and DD turntables. I use to own a 401 in a Cain & Cain plinth and it was absolutely brilliant with a Syrinx tonearm, I have lived with a Lenco in a custom multi-laminated plinth and the Lenco in an OTT Slate and Granite laminated plinth or was it a ‘constrained layer’ construction?, both of which gave the most fantastic sound and depth and clarity of bass along with shear musicality that is hard to beat, was on a par with the best I’ve heard. Though the one deck I would still consider owning as a second source would have to be the big top of range Denon DD turntable (not sure of the model), the mega bucks one. A mate of mine used one for years and then sold it without telling me, a guy in the USA paid serious money for it, it had a Graham arm on it, the sound again was up with the best and certainly better than a lot of current offerings around.
So what this means – to me at least – is never dismiss anything on an age basis (being old doesn’t make it a has been- that's no reference to me either) you never know what you are missing out on.

Andy - SDDW

pure sound
08-05-2008, 09:21
Denon DP100M

http://www.thevintageknob.org/DENON/DP100M/DP100M.html

Could've bought one of these a few years ago in Holland for about £240. Sadly I had no easy means of getting it home :(

Marco
08-05-2008, 09:26
Awesome. That's got to be up there with the big EMTs and your SP10 :)

Not sure about the arm, though. It looks a bit 'flimsy'...

John and Andy, interesting comments. I'll get back to you later.

Marco.

pure sound
08-05-2008, 10:20
Richard Huxley of Strasbourg Audio (enjoy the music on other fora) has had mint examples of the Denon, the EMT 950 and the SP10Mk3. He said that it was surprising how similar sounding these turntables became once speed fluctuation was no longer an issue.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/SP10MK3INSAECPLINTH.jpg
SP10 Mk3 in the massive SAEC SBX3 plinth

Marco
08-05-2008, 11:22
He said that it was surprising how similar sounding these turntables became once speed fluctuation was no longer an issue.


And how right he is! Like I've said before, when you all but eradicate speed fluctuation, vinyl replay has the 'security' and pitch stability of CD - there is simply little sense of a stylus tracking a plastic groove - but one gets all the natural 'warmth' of vinyl along with its undoubtedly superior dynamic range. Welcome to the world of high quality direct-drive!

The result? Musical bliss, and a very happy place to be :smoking:

That MK3 looks simply stunning! I'm afraid it is decks like that which reduce 95% of T/Ts currently on the market to the status of mere toys.

Marco.

DSJR
08-05-2008, 15:05
I was rudely reminded recently how REALLY good vinyl reproduction can be - and not on a wanky springy rubber belt driven "icon" either. Apart from the SL1200 series, you need to spend serious money to get that utter stability unless you find a bargain used.

Filterlab
08-05-2008, 15:39
...and not on a wanky springy rubber belt driven "icon" either...

Now I wonder which turntable you could be talking about. :scratch: :eyebrows: :lol:

snapper
08-05-2008, 15:44
Now I wonder which turntable you could be talking about. :scratch: :eyebrows: :lol:


Mine.


:)

Marco
08-05-2008, 15:48
Ah, but the difference is, dude, you like what it does and just get into the music. You're not claiming that the LP12 is 'accurate' :)

Plus, you don't give a f*ck what anyone else thinks anyway - and quite right, too! :smoking:

Marco.

snapper
08-05-2008, 15:58
you don't give a f*ck what anyone else thinks anyway

Marco.



Correct.

Marco
08-05-2008, 16:12
I know you well, mate :)

Marco.

John
08-05-2008, 16:50
Marco
Sorry I am new hear and find myself wondering have you gone into detail about what you done to your modified turntable and how it helped the sound; if not would you consider doing this I be really interested in the logic of you thinking and how you went about this

Marco
08-05-2008, 20:12
Hi John,

Have a good read through this thread, particularly towards the end:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=201

If there's anything specific you'd like to know just ask :)

Marco.

griffo104
12-05-2008, 11:17
Marco,

An excellent write up. I've yet to read the Monaco TT review, it's in a backlog of hifi mags I need to catch up on.

One point I would raise with regards your comments though, and that is should a magazine review a modded piece of gear, especially a piece modded by someone other than the manufacturer themselves ?

To be fair to RG, his mag does have a habit of reviewing gear outside of the usual distribution arms in the UK but surely it's down to either KAB, or out of curiosity the mag themselves, to request a review ?

I heard a friend's SL1200 a few years ago, not sure how close this is the SL1210 and I was completely unmoved by it, his comment (not mine) was that he was sure the it would sound better once the arm had been either modded or changed for something else, in his case he was thinking of an RB300.

I understand what you are saying but surely if company the size of Technics (or panasonic as they may well be known only as now) could release the deck in stock form with a few extra mods then why don't they do it ?

Marco
12-05-2008, 12:38
Hi Griffo,

It's good to see you visiting us more often and contributing :)


One point I would raise with regards your comments though, and that is should a magazine review a modded piece of gear, especially a piece modded by someone other than the manufacturer themselves ?


Why not? It didn't stop David Price reviewing his modified SL-1210 in Hi-fi World... A review could easily be done of the SL-1210 in standard form and then an analysis of the KAB modifications to ascertain their effect. It's not just about single products, but also complete packages, especially when T/Ts are involved as they represent the sum of many parts.


To be fair to RG, his mag does have a habit of reviewing gear outside of the usual distribution arms in the UK but surely it's down to either KAB, or out of curiosity the mag themselves, to request a review ?


Of course, however I feel that people are being deprived of knowing how good the SL-1210 is when suitably modified, simply because unless you're part of the small group of people 'in the know' (i.e. you visit audio forums where relevant discussions are taking place or you've seen the KAB website) you'd have no idea what a modified 1210 is sonically capable of. Somehow the 'secret' needs to get out more into the public domain and therefore the modified 1210, KAB-effected or otherwise, appreciated by a wider audience. I would dearly love to facilitate the process!

There are people, for example, currently buying Regas, Pro-jects, Mitchells, and plenty of other decks, who perhaps if they were aware of the phenomenal performance available from a modified SL-1210 wouldn't be so quick in buying Regas or Pro-jects, etc: it's about educating people and giving them a choice, but they can't choose something if they don't know that it exists.

Like Guy says, there are some people who don't want the status quo disturbed (too bloody bad, I say!), and I believe the magazines are protecting the interests of the established UK T/T manufacturers, which is understandable, but it is ultimately restricting choice for the consumer. I remember during a telephone conversation with David Price him telling me that his modified SL-1210 pissed all over his Gyrodec and also an SME10 he had in for review, but he couldn't write that in the magazine for "obvious reasons". That's a true fact but I doubt that he'd admit it in public! :eyebrows:


I heard a friend's SL1200 a few years ago, not sure how close this is the SL1210 and I was completely unmoved by it, his comment (not mine) was that he was sure the it would sound better once the arm had been either modded or changed for something else, in his case he was thinking of an RB300.


The 1200 and 1210 are identical in all but finish. One is silver (1200) and the other is black. There are no sonic differences whatsoever between them. I don't doubt your experience of the SL-1200, but I'm sure you're intelligent enough to realise that it isn't representative of how a fully modified deck sounds. If not, (lol!) I can tell you categorically from experience that it isn't. Also, an RB300 is in no way better than the stock Technics arm when Cardas rewired and fluid-damped, etc. It's only considered 'better' by some because that's what they've been told by so-called 'experts' in the audio press, or by dealers, both of whom may have hidden agendas, either that or they haven't heard both arms side by side and are therefore in a position to arrive at an informed conclusion. If you read the thread on Gromit's system in our Gallery you'll find some interesting observations there, and not just from me ;)


I understand what you are saying but surely if company the size of Technics (or panasonic as they may well be known only as now) could release the deck in stock form with a few extra mods then why don't they do it ?


The answer is simply because they have *MUCH* bigger fish to fry in other areas of audio and consumer electronics. The market for such a product would be tiny and not commercially viable. And Technics (National Panasonic) are quite happy suppling 1000s of T/Ts to DJs in stock form without incurring extra costs to produce a product which in reality only a small minority of audio enthusiasts would be interested in buying.

I just wish someone in the UK would do what KAB does and therefore give more people in the UK and Europe easier access to a modified deck. I reckon it would be an excellent business opportunity for someone with the necessary skills. The key product is the off-board PSU, which apparently took Kevin from KAB some time to perfect due to the complicated nature of the SL-1210's internal electronics. The rest, however, would be easy-peasy, particularly to someone like J7 of Audio Origami.

As an aside, it was rumoured that Technics may be considering reintroducing the SL-120, which is the same deck but sold as a motor unit only without a tonearm. This of course would allow people to fit their favourite 'hi-end' tonearm of choice, provided it was physically compatible, and rid the deck of its so-called main 'weak spot'. If the Jap big boys go ahead with those plans, and get serious about supplying the audiophile T/T market, things will be very interesting indeed, and then God help the Regas, Pro-jects, Michells, etc, of this world...

Marco.

griffo104
12-05-2008, 13:44
Marco,

Very good points and I have no problems with KAB, been a very happy user of their RCM for a long time and the speed of delivery and service from them was excellent - as is often the case with companies I've used outside of the UK.

I understand your points about the review process and it would be interesting for another mag to pick up on this, RG does recommend some KAB accessories so I can't see why not.

Certainly the Technics 1200/1210 are gaining more popularity through the forums so they must be doing something right, especially with the KAB mods.

Is there a status quo ? It's funny but I listened to an SME 10 about 2.5 years ago and preferred the Orbe SE I subsequently bought . Was it a better deck ? In terms of accuracy probably not but in terms of enjoying the music being played back then, IMO, it was the better deck. I've chatted to a few people who hve looked strangely at me for stating that but it's more down to SME's reputation than those people actually listening to the two decks side by side (or even hearing either one of them, tbh). Some people form an opinion without any experience of the brands themselves.

Direct drives have a major problem, the ones my parents owned back when I was first getting in to music was dire, an old Trio deck. It was why I went straight to CD and not look in to vinyl more when I started in to this hobby - something I deeply regret now. I have to work all that DD nonsense out of my system :lolsign:

I suppose the Technics may suffer due to its DJ heritage but as you say that's also the reason why the deck has such a following in the first place.

Hearing a modded Garrard 301 a few years back, it was apparent how certain areas were far better than the LP12 that I had at the time, not all areas but certainly several of them and also how easy it was to sit back and enjoy the music coming from the grooves while listening to the deck.

It would be interesting to hear the modded Technics direct with my Orbe SE, may be we'll get around to meeting up and trying one day, would certainly be fun.

DSJR
12-05-2008, 16:08
If you want to play around cheaply, look out for an SL1600(fully auto), SL1700 (auto return) or SL1800(manual).

The above generation lacked the quartz locking, but were still highish torque/low overshoot models with very similar tonearms fitted, together with a sprung sub-chassis (not as bouncy as a Thorens).

They sound very similar to the 1200/1210 and can be got for around a ton or less, as noone knows what they can do. The auto ones are fine with a V15 at 1 gramme so don't worry about any friction increase or loading on the arm...

David Price
18-09-2008, 09:30
Wow - what a topic!

I think AOS is leading the way on this; most other forums still regard the SL1200 as something on a par to Dual 505 or suchlike, but not you guys!

As I've said to Marco, I think the SL1200 is deeply special; not because of what it is but what it can become when the cheap and nasty bits are circumvented or removed. The core of the deck - that motor and controller and top plate - is about as good as it gets anywhere these days. It's a sublime piece of engineering considering the cost it sells for. As everyone is remarking, the art then is to isolate the 'motor unit' properly and fit a decent arm. I know many here use the stock one, but I'd implore you to try something of the class on an OL Silver. The stock arm has an attractive 'fingerprint'; big, bassy and bouncy; but it is unsubtle and veiled in absolute terms.

I'm hoping to try the external PSU sometime - I wrote to Kevin two years ago but he wouldn't send me one for free. He didn't know who I was and/or didn't believe me; I guess he thought it was a scam.

Even without the PSU, I've found that my modded SL1200 can compete with most under £5,000. I say that after having done A-Bs against everything up to Avid Volvere Sequel/SME 10A/LP12 Keel level. I wouldn't say it is as good in every respect (particularly left-to-right soundstaging, where a Michell Gyro is still king), but the fundamental musicality is brilliant, as is the bass speed and grip. It's not as deep and weighty as the old Jap superdecks or Garrards, but it's brilliantly propulsive.

I can't believe some folks on other forums are still comparing it to a Rega - and unfavourably at that! Ha!

David Price
18-09-2008, 10:47
Marco,

Direct drives have a major problem, the ones my parents owned back when I was first getting in to music was dire, an old Trio deck. It was why I went straight to CD and not look in to vinyl more when I started in to this hobby - something I deeply regret now. I have to work all that DD nonsense out of my system :lolsign:
.

...this is what we're up against - it's like saying multivalve car engines have a problem because your dad's Triumph Dolomite Sprint used to blow its head gasket!

It's also just as wrong to say belt drives are crap because your brother's Dual didn't sound good, or idlers aren't good because of your uncle's Garrard SP25... It's not what you've got, but how well it's implemented.

For example, the Avid BDs have a short, taut belt with very little 'pliance'. This locks the motor to the subplatter/platter a lot more tightly than a long peripheral belt like the Michell. The result is tighter bass.

The same debate in DD is around the Sony/Denon system of a 'tape head' on the inner edge of the platter feeding back speed drift information, or the Technics system where it's done from the centre.

It's also important to remember that the drive is only one aspect of the sound. You could buy £100 quartz lock direct drives in the early eighties with 0.02% W&F (i.e. better than a Linn) that sounded God-awful. Designing a great deck is about drive stability, noise suppression (from the motor and from the environment) and zero information loss (from the main bearing and tonearm bearing).

My conclusion is that turntables are like people; a complex mix of competing strengths and weaknesses. The better the mix is, the better the t/t will be. You can't just isolate one point and obsess on it.

Marco
18-09-2008, 10:58
Hi David,


Wow - what a topic!

I think AOS is leading the way on this; most other forums still regard the SL1200 as something on a par to Dual 505 or suchlike, but not you guys!


Erm, in a word, no! :eyebrows:

We're a little more open-minded here, David, and embrace the merits of both old and new technologies to create a good sound. Also our members are blissfully free of influence from the belt-drive/suspended chassis 'indoctrination' carried out by Linn in the 70s ;)


As I've said to Marco, I think the SL1200 is deeply special; not because of what it is but what it can become when the cheap and nasty bits are circumvented or removed. The core of the deck - that motor and controller and top plate - is about as good as it gets anywhere these days.


Absolutely. But how do we impregnate this fact into the psyche of the uninitiated?

I have to say that your article in HFW has gone a long way to awakening people's interest in the SL-1200/1210, and because of that people have started asking questions on forums, word of mouth has spread accordingly, and now there has never been so much interest in the venerable old (new?) direct-driver.

I'm 'on the case' so much here because like you I genuinely believe that the Technics is special and represents quite phenomenal value for money; more so even in the 'sound-per-pound' stakes when its been judiciously modified as described. Then, quite simply, it enters the realms of a super-deck.

But it's a tough job trying to chip through years of baked-on prejudices!


It's a sublime piece of engineering considering the cost it sells for. As everyone is remarking, the art then is to isolate the 'motor unit' properly and fit a decent arm. I know many here use the stock one, but I'd implore you to try something of the class on an OL Silver. The stock arm has an attractive 'fingerprint'; big, bassy and bouncy; but it is unsubtle and veiled in absolute terms.


Hehe... Can I ask that you reserve final judgement until you've heard the arm fully modified, KAB and otherwise? Perhaps I could submit my 1210 for review and you could compare it to your modifed deck? It would be a good opportunity to introduce the KAB mods and suchlike to your readers, many of which as you know write in every month regarding queries on this very subject! I would of course respect your findings. Thing is, you won't know what the arm is capable of otherwise... If you still think it's crap then you can hit me over the head with it! :lol:


I'm hoping to try the external PSU sometime - I wrote to Kevin two years ago but he wouldn't send me one for free. He didn't know who I was and/or didn't believe me; I guess he thought it was a scam.


I think we can resolve this from what I've suggested above. I've spoken to Kevin since, though, and he knows who you are now so if you try again I think the results might be different.


Even without the PSU, I've found that my modded SL1200 can compete with most under £5,000. I say that after having done A-Bs against everything up to Avid Volvere Sequel/SME 10A/LP12 Keel level. I wouldn't say it is as good in every respect (particularly left-to-right soundstaging, where a Michell Gyro is still king), but the fundamental musicality is brilliant, as is the bass speed and grip. It's not as deep and weighty as the old Jap superdecks or Garrards, but it's brilliantly propulsive.


I totally agree, and my own listening experiences bear this out. Have you read my review of the Slatedeck SP10 vs. my KAB-modified SL-1210 in the 'Strokes of Genius' section? I think you might find it interesting.


I can't believe some folks on other forums are still comparing it to a Rega - and unfavourably at that! Ha!


Well, what can I say that I haven't already written many times before... :nocomment:

Marco.

scoobs
19-09-2008, 16:32
slobber (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MINT-EMT-930st-STUDIO-TURNTABLE-EMT-153ST-DENON-DL-103_W0QQitemZ320301662518QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item3 20301662518&_trkparms=72%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C24 0%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

:stalks:

John
19-09-2008, 17:10
nearly bought an EMT a few years back but I pulled out in the end. I always regret that

Marco
19-09-2008, 17:26
Very nice, Scoobs!

An EMT is the *only* deck I'd swap my KAB 1210 for. The cartridge shown is a TSD-15. You can fit an XSD-15 (SME fitting) to the 1210, and I will be doing so! :eyebrows:

It blows the 103s out the water (with its matching transformer).

Marco.

John
19-09-2008, 19:36
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TECHNICS-SP10-MK2-WITH-SH-10B3-OBSIDIAN-BASE-PLUS-PSU_W0QQitemZ160284202690QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 60284202690&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

If I had the money I buy this put it on 40mm slate and just enjoy

StanleyB
19-09-2008, 19:42
I am happy with my DDX-1000. Turned down some outlandish offers on it, but you can't replace wow factor with a rotating slab like the SP-10.

John
20-09-2008, 12:54
that is one impressive looking turntable

Marco
20-09-2008, 17:39
The EMT or the SP10, John. Or both? :eyebrows:

Like I said me personally, the only deck I'd swap my KAB 1210 for is an EMT, such as the one shown above.

SP10's are great, but having done a comparison recently between one and my KAB 1210 (see review in 'Strokes of Genius') it's not significantly better, if at all, to the KAB 1210 to warrant the hassle of finding plinths, etc, and worrying about if anything goes pop whether or not the parts are available to fix it...

Marco.

scoobs
20-09-2008, 18:15
I would have to build a very special 'bread bin' for that beast, to cover up all those gubbins. I'm off to buy a lotto ticket.

John
20-09-2008, 19:38
I want them all Marco but if I was to have the choice again it be the EMT
To be honest I am going down a different route now VPI rim drive on super scoutmaster. I got a good friend who has the Verus drive he intially had all sorts of rumble issues due to the O ring but now silent with a new O Ring. We plan to compare when I get mine from VPI. I love the way the Garrad 401 throws music at you, and using this method I should have a better platter and bearing Also getting the SDS as the only way you can power the rim drive but every now and then I think should of gone direct drive it would of been a lot cheaper!!!! Still should have a special turntable and combined with the Trans fi arm that I rate very highly indeed (totally outperforms my old SME4 in every department) I should have something very special, but all theory at the moment.
Think its healthy people going down different routes to reach a goal so love the idea of different drive methods
I also just have the Whest PS30r upgraded to a duel transformer by James at Whest (James says takes it a lot closer to the reference Model) and looking forward to hearing that when i get the chassis and rim drive. But the issue will be that I am not able to tell how much difference the rim drive and phono stage makes. Still it all about the music in the end

John
27-09-2008, 14:35
here is another interesting direct drive anyone know anything about this model tempted to go for it myself might be fun modifying it
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Technics-SL-110-Turntable-with-SME-Armboard_W0QQitemZ220274909366QQcmdZViewItem?hash= item220274909366&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A7%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

pure sound
28-09-2008, 10:12
I had one briefly but wasn't too impressed. Technics refined their motor control system considerably with later designs. A bit gutless & grey sounding.

dmckean
09-10-2008, 04:06
I know many here use the stock one, but I'd implore you to try something of the class on an OL Silver. The stock arm has an attractive 'fingerprint'; big, bassy and bouncy; but it is unsubtle and veiled in absolute terms.


I've gotten along pretty well with the stock arm but I'd love to hear another arm on the table. Even though I love the sound I'm still a little suspicious since the stock arm tracks rather poorly without the fluid dampening.

John
27-10-2008, 08:48
I saw this on Audiogon
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1224544234

David Price
06-07-2009, 00:24
You should have carried it on your head if necessary Guy - worth the neck pain I'd say!

...of course belt drives hunt too - they're constantly slowing down (then catching up again), as the stylus imposes sudden momentary 'drag' on highly modulated grooves and the belt stretches or slips - dynamic wow in other words. A great analogy is the clutch on my Rover 75 slipping as I push the gas pedal to maintain speed as I go up a steep hill! Must get the flipping thing fixed.

So it's wrong to say one type hunts and the other doesn't; rather the question is how the different drive systems' respective hunting manifests itself sonically. With belts, they tend to cut off the very first part of the leading transient, making for soft bass. DDs catch this but can sound a bit mechanical as you hear that servo working, stuffing power into the motor in fits and starts. Methinks a bad DD is just as bad as a poor BD, but the good news is that you can buy a very, very good DD for £400 - about five times less than a very, very good BD!

Mike
06-07-2009, 16:37
Anyone know what DD 'tables are currently in production? :scratch:

I can only think of the Technics and the Denon DP500. I'm ignoring the Grand Prix due to it's price for the moment.

scoobs
06-07-2009, 16:48
The Brinkmann Oasis (http://www.brinkmann-audio.de/main.php?prod=oasis&lang=en)

Peter Stockwell
06-07-2009, 17:57
Same price as the grand prix audio, surely ?

The Grand Wazoo
01-08-2010, 23:10
In an act of shameless grave robbing, made worse by the fact that I've just finished typing a 'From The Grave' post, I'd like to pick up this thread in order to maybe run a few short yards with it.

I expect many of us have seen photos of Tim de P's £11,700 EAR Yoshino Disc Master turntable, but I've just been reading a little about it on his website & wondered if anyone knew more about the drive system than can be found there?
http://www.ear-yoshino.com/products.php?catId=6
I'll quote directly from it:

Now Tim de Paravicini, the renowned designer of EAR amplifiers, has come up with an ingenious solution that solves all these problems. A low-noise motor, controlled by a carefully optimised servo loop, drives a sub-platter via a toothed belt. This immediately eliminates slip and ensures that speed is absolutely controlled. The sub-platter drives the main platter via a clever arrangement of opposing magnets. Again, this cannot slip, but it allows just enough compliance to filter out any remaining vibration from the motor and belt, whilst applying a fully symmetric driving force.

Bearings are another problem for any turntable designer. We have solved this by using precision Swiss angular contact bearings which are at least as quiet as the more common point contact types but wear much more slowly, so that performance after years of use will be as good as on initial purchase.

http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=11217&c=ACCT106601&h=67fc9eb2a339bdf27174

Reticuli
06-03-2011, 21:42
Torque is highly overrated in djing turntables. Neither a Technics 1200, nor any other DJing turntable -- even the super high torque ones -- have sufficient torque to allow you to hit the start button and get an instant start of the record like on a professional CD player. You ALWAYS must hold the record, hit start, and wait a split second for the platter to get up to speed.

The Technics 1200 is the djing standard and greatest mass-market turntable ever made for a couple reasons: It is extremely reliable & durable, easy for any electronics technician to repair if needed, has a pitch adjustment slider, and, most importantly both historically and compared to more recent competition, has stunningly incredible speed-stability compared to other tables regardless of whether it is quartz-locked, pitch-adjusted, or the record (and thus platter) are being manipulated (slowed, sped-up, etc). It is consistent, reliable, functional, and stable at all times... unless it needs to be repaired, which is easy to get done.

And all this has nothing to do with how much instantaneous torque is available. It is a marvel. Perhaps most audiophiles won't see a benefit from the excellent speed stability, considering they are not pitch-adjusting or manipulating the record. After all, they certainly have been content with crappy belt-drives for decades. But in a professional club or party environment, it is essential. Empirical, concrete evidence is witnessed first hand, as a opposed to the wishy-washy vagaries and beliefs of some audio pseudoscience.

Welder
06-03-2011, 21:50
:eek::D

I’m glad that’s sorted out then.

chris@panteg
06-03-2011, 22:04
Nothing like speaking one's mind i guess .

MartinT
06-03-2011, 22:32
Hi Benjamin

Would you mind popping over to the welcome area and introducing yourself, please?

Cheers!

Tarzan
08-03-2011, 12:14
I think he just has;)

MartinT
08-03-2011, 14:14
I can only see the one post from him :scratch:

Neil McCauley
08-03-2011, 18:22
My next deck, for personal use will be a German-build direct drive. Massive platter and low torque motor. I have no need for instant-start-to-speed requirements. Years ago I used a Denon DP-75 with Breuer 8-Dynamic and Supex 901. For my tastes in my room with my then system it was utterly compelling.

Oddly my Pink Triangle with same arm and cartridge had a similarly mesmerizing effect – but with different tonal characteristics of course. Accuracy? What accuracy?. No other combinations, with or without Glaswegian thuggery ever came close.

Thus I sit on both sides of the fence. On balance though, I’m direct-drive at heart.

John
08-03-2011, 19:10
Howard I would love to hear that deck when you get it